And to think that I was raised with switches (ouch) and still survived to take my place in this world. Not much hope for the "feel good" generation... well, there are still a few that teach proper etiquette so maybe there is hope for one more generation....

I am the proud father to a 3 1/2 year old daughter.

If my girl is makes a scene (as she does) in public, I fell horrible and try to whisk her out of the limelight. Of course, I am not one of these yuppie bastards.

Yes, little kids are loud and active. In fact, children are little barbarians and it is our job as parents to teach them how to be human beings and live in society.

I welcome this pushback by the civilized against the barbarians.

What I don't get is how some parents aren't so embarrassed by their toddler's obnoxious behaviour that they don't either a) completely avoid places where people are trying to enjoy a quiet meal, or b) immediately get up and take their kids out when they act up.

We have a 3-year old and an infant, and while our 3 year old is exceptionally well-behaved and quiet, he still has his moments, so we just don't take them places where boisterous toddler-ish behaviour might annoy people (like expensive restaurants, quiet coffee houses, and movie theatres). There are plenty of other places to take them until they're old enough to behave in a manner that fits a quiet environment (and as a bonus, most of those kid-friendly places are a whole lot cheaper). If we are absolutely determined to go somewhere nice, we get a babysitter.

Allowing your kids to annoy the hell out of people who are paying their hard earned money for a nice, quiet meal is inconsiderate and low class. To me, it's no different than walking into a quiet restaurant with a barking dog or a blaring jam box, and you should be treated accordingly; that is, asked to leave.

These so-called parents who let their kids run wild in such places are the very same people who, 10 or 15 years from now, just won't understand why little Johnny is doing so poorly in school and always getting in trouble.

First, you must remember that these people view their children as accessories to be shown off to the world. When they go into a restaurant, they want to toss down the children much like they do their newest Prada bags. They want to enjoy some time drinking coffee and chatting with their friends. That's "mommy's time" and they are allowed to shun their responsibilities if it makes them feel good. While they are absolutely correct that the child is just being a child, they seem to forget that the parent must also be a parent at the same time.

I worked as a retail manager for 5 years. During that time, I saw kids doing many things that would have caused my life to come to a sudden end had I done them when I was younger. Once, a child was walking along pulling every sign off the shelf and throwing it on the floor. When I walked over to ask him to please stop, his father grabbed him and glard at me as if I had just molested his child. Another time, I looked up to see a child pushing one of those red, plastic handbaskets along a newly-waxed floor leaving long scratch marks in the finish (his dad wanted him to "help" by carrying the basket which was too heavy for him to carry, hence the pushing.) When I approached the boy to ask him to not do that, the father said, "You don't tell me how to raise my son." I'm sure both of those boys grew up to be fine juvenile delinquents.

I'm just interested to see how the comments trend...

I couldn't help but chuckle at that comment Dave. I couldn't agree more.

I have four myself. The youngest, a girl, is a complete angel and we can take her anywhere. The oldest boy, however, was a hellion and could not sit still even if he were encased in concrete. With him, we ate takeout a lot. He's the payback for my behavior when I was a child. Karma can be a real bitch sometimes.

Oh, boy.

What have I gotten myself into?

dave f,

what is this "jam box" you speak of?

I'm not suppose to fill a strong sense of entitlement?..;-)

Parenting takes hard work and no one wants that anymore. I have four kids and if we were in the grocery store and they started acting up I immediately took them outside until they calmed down and we straightened things out. It took time. It was a pain, but it taught my kids how to act in public.

And it didn't have a damn thing to do with "positive energy."

Yeah sentinel, I haven't heard that term used in quite a while.

Picture a young Ace in his red electric boogaloo Sears and Roebucks Toughskins jeans, Wile E. Coyote t-shirt, and feux brown leather Stride Rites. A bag of D&D dice is swaying from his belt loop as he swaggers toward the local Spaceport video game complex. In his right hand and perched upon his scrawny shoulder is a large, portable AM/FM radio with big double mid-range speakers and two tiny worthless tweeters on top. In the cassette deck, Ace is blaring into his right ear and out the left the musical majestry of Culture Club, whispering in song to himself "I'll Tumble for Ya!"

That fine set of electronic hardware is what is nostalgically known as a "Jambox."

What have I gotten myself into?

They don't call them the "terrible twos" because it starts at age two. It actually means that it lasts for two years.

Sometimes longer, your mileage may vary.

Dave in Texas,

No kidding - a good friend of mine, when his child was 3 and misbehaving, would joke that he was doing his postgraduate work in the terrible twos. It'll be a LONG while before I have kids, and I'm already scared.

Allowing children to be free of child-rearing did not, after all, produce a generation of happy, carefree, uncomplicated, altruistic and creative people. The experiment seems to suggest that a great deal of what we think of as "human nature" in the best sense - compassion, fairness, conscience - is, in fact taught. We had always assumed that guilt and remorse were a natural consequence of doing wrong, but judges now are encountering legions of young criminals who have no such feelings.

Judith Martin Miss Manners Rescues Civilization

Guess I'm showing my age using "jam box", huh? A jam box is the big thing that I stuffed in my bookbag in middle school so I would be allowed to sit in the back of the bus with the cool kids, who would've otherwise had nothing to do with me. The day I brought a tape of Eddie Murphy's Delerious on the bus and those f-bombs started flying, I swear I was almost one of them.

That same jambox also got me suspended for 3 days in 8th grade. While our bus driver tended to look the other way, they were forbidden at school, you see. So every morning before 1st period, I would stuff it in my locker. One day, after classes had started and for reasons I still do not understand, the tape in it just started playing, all by itself in my locker. Rush's 2112, at full volume. Whoops.

Obviously, this McCauley guy is not a breeder, if you know what I mean.

Some of the behavior described in the article is bad, and any parent who wouldn't discipline his kid and whisk him out of the establishment under the circumstances is a huge slacker.

That said, people have to countenance plenty of obnoxious "adult behavior" in public all the time. You've never been in a restaurant where there's a boisterous conversation going on between cackling adults? Do you get up and ask them to leave? Post a sign about noisy conversation? I'm not an anti-smoker (in fact, I smoke), but that's the real beef with public smoking -- it's pretty unpleasant having clouds of acrid smoke drift across your food. (Unlike the aesthete bakery owner in the article, I'm giving cell phone users a pass, as I think much of the animus against them is ginned-up baloney.)

Maybe the kids are better behaved where I come from, but I don't run into bratty public behavior from kids any more often than I run into pain in the arse adults. You know what, that's life, folks.

I guess if things got as out of hand as they seem to have gotten at McCauley's establishment, I could see the need to post a sign about keeping your kids under control. But there's also a world of old farts out there who don't like it when kids intrude on their supposed turf, and who are just looking for slip ups. It makes 'em feel that much more superior to the breeders.

It's his restaurant. He gets to say who is allowed in and under what strictures they must behave. If it drives away business, then that's a business decision. But it is his absolute prerogative to include or exclude anyone he sees fit (and yes, that means absent any other laws, he can stop black people or womoen from eating there. He'd be an asshole to do so, but he still should have that right).

I'f you've got young kids, take 'em to the food court at the mall. Don't screw up my deli experience with your caterwauling brood. I didn't get you pregnant, so I don't see why I should suffer.

I liked this one best, said by a mother of small child:

"I think that the mothers who allow their kids to run around and scream, that's wrong, but kids scream and there is nothing you can do about it. What are we supposed to do, not enjoy ourselves at a cafe?"

Uh huh - and what does she think the folks there without children are trying to do? Parents often forget - their children are really only that cute, to them, the rest of the world is far less interested.

Well, the results of the poll in the original story are certainly encouraging.

Ralphie, obnoxious adult behavior is every bit as annoying - sometimes even moreso; but generally speaking, there's a line that adults won't cross. stuff like this:

Children were climbing the cafe's poles. A couple were blithely reading the newspaper while their daughter lay on the floor blocking the line for coffee. When the family whose children were running across the room to flail themselves against the display cases left after his admonishment, McCauley recalled, the restaurant erupted in applause.

Even putting aside how annoying it is, this guy has to protect himself. You just know that if one of those precious little darlings busted through a display case and shredded themselves, or fell off the pole and cracked their dear widdle heads, their parents would sue this guy's ass off.

To me, it's no different than walking into a quiet restaurant with a barking dog or a blaring jam box, and you should be treated accordingly; that is, asked to leave.

This kind of amused me - wy wife and I have a very well behaved 8 month old Nova Scotia Retreiver puppy. Since we both work all week, we try to get as much puppy-time as we can on the weekends. This means eating at a lot of outdoor restaurants (which is a little chilly in November, but whatever). Anyway, it cracks me up how much better behaved our dog is than a lot of the kids we see. Generally she'll just lie under the table chewing on a bone or a toy, emerging occasionally to charm the staff into bringing her bowls of water or treats.

A lot of indulgent parents these days just will not discipline their kids when their little angels act like hell spawns in public. When I was a kid, I got away with acting up in public for about 30 seconds before my dad snatched me up like the Grim Reaper. I was in an airport a few years ago and this brat threw a fit for over an hour. I wanted to drag his father into the bathroom and kick his ass.

A friend of mine has 9 children. He usually gets dirty looks when he and his family enters into restaurants by other patrons who think their evening is going to be ruined by a horde of bratty kids. But frequently, some of those patrons compliment him and his wife as they're leaving because their children are all well-behaved and know how to sit quietly. One time, a guy even picked up the family's check for the meal, and with 9 children, you know the tab must have been considerable.

Apo: You won't hear me saying that stuff isn't appalling.

I guess I'm speaking for the parent who has deal with the "kids, best seen but not heard" attitude of a certain segment of society. Some cranks just don't like to be around kids. To my mind, they are the ones who view children as nothing more than accessories.

My parents put the fear of God into me when it came to acting up in public. Whether it's fear or something else, I think my wife and I have passed that on to my kids.

Again, I just think there's a certain age group - demographic (probably a couple of age group - demographics) out there that wants nothing to do with kids and looks down at people who bring their kids out into the light of day.

Pity you can't wallop a kid in public anymore without being arrested for child abuse. Whenever I got out of line, it squared me away quick.

The same people who "cheered" when one obnoxious crew left the store would be the same ones sprinting to the phone to call the cops if the mother had given the kids a tune up -- after all, a place like that only attracts full on moonbats. Conservatives won't be hanging at poofy places like that...they'll be at Dunkin Donuts

I had a customer come into my shop once with a little boy about 3 1/2 yrs, I think.
He was misbehaving, she'd say something to him and he totally ignored her.

Finally he did something to merchandise on a shelf and I said something to him, very nicely, probably, 'No,no honey, don't do that, OK?' And his mother echoed my sentiments.

Still ignoring her, his little face screwed up with rage at me, he started to come around behind my counter with his hand raised.

His mother said, "Oh, no you don't! Don't do it-- he's going to hit you, because he didn't like what you said!"
I put my hands on my hips and glowered over him and said, "Go back to your mother."
And he did, and his mother gave me a black shitty look.
But the little guy clung to her skirt the rest of the transaction and I think that's how we measure success.

To this day I still can't believe she didn't just go pick the kid up when he threatened to hit somebody. She knew what he was up to- she lets her kid go around smacking strangers!

She's lucky it was me, and not somebody who would knock him on his ass.

I love it! You should entitle this article "When liberal parenting crashes headlong into left-wing elitism"!

As the father of two small children( 3-year old and 14 month old), I have to side with the owner of the cafe. Too many parents believe the claptrap that disciplining a child prevents him/her from becoming their own person. What bullshit. You have to teach your children the boundaries of acceptable behavior. They certainly aren't born with it.

At some gathering of 2-year olds, my son wanted to play quietly with some toy trains. The first four trains that he picked up were grabbed out of his hands by some screeching ball of misbehavior. When the little discipline problem tried to take the fifth toy from my son, I put up my arm to block him and told him to play with something else. Here's the odd thing: his parents were sitting 3 feet away, watching the entire incident unfold. When I intervened, they finally came over and told their son that "it's good to share." I kind of think that they wouldn't have done a damn thing if I hadn't been there.

Anyway, kudos to the owner for setting the ground rules.

George Lakoff (whom I probably too-often reference) starts off his book Moral Politics with this little nugget:

I asked Paul if he could think of a single question, the answer to which would be the best indicator of liberal vs. conservative attitudes. His response: "If your baby cries at night, do you pick him up?"

If your child throws a tantrum in a public setting, what do you do?

Of course it's a trick question - conservatives' kids don't throw tantrums in public settings.

I can't change the situation in Iraq; I can't change the situation in New Orleans," he said. "But I can change this little corner of the world."

WHAT A FUCKING DOUCHEBAG

When I warn my five-year-old to stop misbehaving in a public place, she knows it needs to stop because the next step is a pinch, and then a rapid exit on the next problem. And it works. Why? Because it happens every time she misbehaves, so she doesn't do it much anymore, and almost never after the warning. It means I didn't always get to finish a movie, see a whole museum, or stay in a store as long as I wanted/needed to, but because I was consistent when she was younger, it's not a problem now that she's older.

Why did I do it? Not because I consider it rude to other people to have a misbehaving child around (though it is), but because if I didn't enforce appropriate behavior I would be a bad parent and would fail my child. Period.

Good point Purple Avenger. I can clearly see certain people getting pissy about rambunctious children yet act outraged when the parents discipline the little nose miners.

Lauraw, I have to laugh because I've experienced that type of complete bullshit before. Makes me want to grab the kid by the collar and shove him right back where he came from. Sometimes people just plain suck.

Again, I just think there's a certain age group - demographic (probably a couple of age group - demographics) out there that wants nothing to do with kids and looks down at people who bring their kids out into the light of day.

At one time, EVERYBODY believed that 'children should be seen and not heard.'

It wasn't just a segment of the population that we now perceive as intolerant jerks.

NOBODY thought it was OK to hear ear-piercing shrieks, be bumped into by running kids, or get stared at at very close range when they're trying to eat a meal.

I'll second everything Lapsed Leftist said.

Oh, brother. (Case in point.) Where do you people hang out?

Our four are old enough now that we have finally resumed dining in restaurants that do not have playplaces. Of course, there are still CiCi's nights, when a game room is the biggest draw.

The shopowner interviewed in the article stated that his clientele was "whiter, wealthier and louder". That rang a bell with me. A few months ago, we took my son's 3rd grade class for an after school skating party.Several parents carpooled to take the kids across town. When we got there and inside, during the afternoon open session, we were met by the other birthday party group, that was extremely unhappy about having to share the facility - especially with a group that was 90% minority kids. Did I say that the other group was a pretty non-diverse kind of group? The kids, a little older than our group, all wore nice preppy clothes with yellow cardboard nameboards taped to their backs, and the mothers had on these nice preppy outfits and stood around guarding their area from our ruffians who were an obvious threat. Our kids behaved like angels (as much as 3rd graders can) and had a blast, and we totally ignored the other group. They, on the other hand, pushed each other down, ran off with small kids skates, and spent a good bit of time banging on and trying to break into the coin games. The adults didn't even notice - they were too busy guarding the cake and punch. The junior yuppies did their best to terrorize and the poor kids from the other side of town were ladies and gentlemen.

When our group wound down and our cake was gone, we got the kids ready to head back home. Buffie and Tiffany were glad to see us leave, doubtless so they could have the place to themselves, without having to guard against ruffians. I had to chuckle on the way out as we walked past three large buses unloading kids from the downtown Y to go skating.

Think real hard: have you had just as many unpleasant encounters with obnoxious adults? Are we ready to make some sweeping statements about the decline in adult civility? Maybe so.

I didn't finish; because parents disciplined their kids back then, the presence of children in public was more charming than it is now.

People used to enjoy interacting with other people's kids, because they're just nicer to be around when they know how to behave.

I remember many times other women in line at the grocery store would start up little conversations with me, sitting in the grocery cart.

If I were annoying everybody, no one would want to talk to me.

My mother's friends loved it when she brought my sister and me over to their homes.

Because we behaved.

If I wanted to make a point about what asses people can be even without children, it would be pretty easy to reel off a number of anecdotes about unbelievably crass adult behavior.

Ralphie, are you talking to me?

I'm talking to myself.

Oh.
Sorry to interrupt.

When I was four, I had a red wiffle ball bat that I had managed to bring into the big farm house in which we lived. I must have been banging it on the walls and whatnot because it irritated my dad enough that he confiscated it. I wasn't done playing with it yet. Looking around the corner, down the hall, I saw it sitting on the washer and dryer next to dad who had his back to me, tinkering with something. So I krept up with rather amazing stealth for a four year old on creaky hardwood floors, reached out, drug the bat off the machine and ran like hell. As long as I'm alive I will never forget the sound of Satan's hooves pounding ever closer as I knew my life was about to be ended. It was straight out of Hellraiser. Just as he was about to grab me , my giggles turned to screams. I winged the bat over my shoulder and rounded the corner just in time to save my skin. Why he didn't continue his pursuit and beat my ass is still a mystery to me to this day. Luckily, my tossing the bat back at him was enough to appease the beast and I was safe until the next time I did something idiotic, which was probably only a few minutes later.

Adults are accountable for their own behavior. What's being discussed here is the attitude of parents when others take issue with their children's behavior. Everybody knows kids will be kids, but even my terror of a five-year-old boy knows Stop means Now.

I don't think this guy freaks out about one scream, but continued bad behavior. There's a huge difference.

There's a difference, Ralphie. Adults are responsible for their own behaviour. Toddlers are not. Their parents are responsible for their behaviour.

If I were in a restaurant and a grown adult threw a screaming tantrum, or went running full speed between the tables and bumping into everyone, I'd have several options: I could politely explain that we're having a quiet conversation and ask if he could he please hold it down; failing that, I could get in his face and tell him to knock it off; or I could find a manager or owner and have him tell the guy to knock it off; or I could call the cops and say there's a unruly and potentially dangerous person creating a disturbance at a restaurant.

With other peoples' children, I don't think it's unreasonable for me to expect THEM to address the situation. Back to what I said earlier, it's no different than bringing a barking dog or a blaring jam box into a restaurant. If your kids are disturbing people, then IMO YOU are disturbing people, because you're responsible for them.

compos, once again with the excellent storytelling.
LOL
I have heard the hooves of Satan too.

With other peoples' children, I don't think it's unreasonable for me to expect THEM to address the situation.

I don't either. I just don't accept the premise that slacker parenting (as evidenced by unruly children) is epidemic or that much more prevalent than when I was a kid. I know I'm setting myself up for some crap with this statement, but some of today's young urban professionals sound like cranky old farts when it comes to complaining about the way "people these days" are raising their kids. I can appreciate it if some people want to sip their mocha lattes in the perfect environment. As I said earlier, maybe I've been lucky to avoid these pockets of pint-sized terrorists where I live.

Yeah, there are some rotten parents and rotten kids. Always have been.

The same people who "cheered" when one obnoxious crew left the store would be the same ones sprinting to the phone to call the cops if the mother had given the kids a tune up

Oh tell me about it.

Once, we went out to a restaurant and my oldest boy (my only child at the time,) who was around 2 or 3, decided to act up.

My husband gave him a warning, and he continued. Then, Hubby took him out to the car.

The booth next to ours had an older lady and two teenagers in it. The male teen had more metal in his face than most domestic cars, and the girl was dressed sluttier than Paris Hilton in a fast food commercial.

They were visibly disgusted that I had the audacity to bring a child to a steakhouse in the first place, but when they saw my husband pop my son on the backside, they literally gasped with moral outrage.

I wanted to tell the older lady, whom I assume to have been a mother to at least one of the teens, that if she had been a decent parent, her children wouldn't look like or be dating someone from a whorehouse or the Hellraiser movie.

Okay, that was just weird. Compos mentioned Hellraiser at the same time I was typing up my post.

Thanks lw :) I hate it when, in the heat of writing, my dumbfuckery comes out and I mispell a simple word like crept. Oh well, I've always been better at math anyway. If it weren't for math, my SAT's would look more like SHAT's.

you have connected to him through the great cosmic consciousness.

this is just an observation, better to connect on Hellraiser than his beshatted self anecdote.

Ralphie, I'm not sure it's geographic but demographic. During the week as a single urban professional, I don't see too many children around, and those that I do see are often well-behaved (because after all, how many parents are going to willingly bring ill-tempered children with them to work/downtown/etc.?). On the weekends, though, when out with my daughter at restaurants, movies, stores, etc., I see an awful lot of awful children.

Maybe I remember things differently, being brought up by liberal but strict parents (who used corporal punishment) in a Catholic family (and most of my friends likewise), but I don't remember there being a lot of other kids around who got away with half of what I see on a daily basis, and we were in awe of the few who would defy their parents openly.

Then again, we live in an age where Bratz are marketed to young children and f'ing retarded parentz buy them for their kidz.

that was weirder.

That is quite a coinkydink Sue. Must have something to do with the idea of hell raising little ankle biters running amok.

I meant daily basis on the weekends, of course.

Sue's story reminds me of Ned Flanders's bongo-banging beatnik parents who bring him to a child psychiatrist because he's out of control. "Doc, you gotta help us! We've tried nothing and we're all out of options!"

Man! You shit yourself ONE TIME and you're labeled for life! Sheesh!

Ralphie -

Think real hard: have you had just as many unpleasant encounters with obnoxious adults?

No.

And when I do, I can reason with or, failing that, threaten the adults.

Now tell your kids to shut the f up. I'm trying to read a newspaper over here.

Ralphie - "You'll shoot your eye out kid!" It's almost that time of year again. TBS - 24 hours straight. Love it!

As a father of two (4 and 1 1/2), and a reasonably big guy, I think it's okay to inform children who misbehave in public that "You had better mind your manners or I'm going to have to take your Daddy out behind the woodshed and tan his hide" - it may not make an impact on the kids but it generally gets the attention of the yuppy. If they can get in your face about second-hand smoke, you can get in their face about second-hand assholery (misbehaving children being a reflection of their parents)

Maybe I remember things differently, being brought up by liberal but strict parents (who used corporal punishment) in a Catholic family (and most of my friends likewise), but I don't remember there being a lot of other kids around who got away with half of what I see on a daily basis, and we were in awe of the few who would defy their parents openly.

Well, I am willing to concede that maybe I'm just pretty lucky in not witnessing stuff like this on a daily basis.

I make sure my kids are well behaved because it's rude to annoy other people, it embarrasses me to be associated with bad behavior, it shames my kids to be acting up, and I don't want them to grow up to be selfish erks.

Believe me, I'm not into that self-expression crap; it's just that I do believe in allowing kids out in public.

Selfish jerks, that is. Though I wouldn't want them to become erks, either.

compos, I just thought it was weird that as I was cracking wise with Sue about synchronicity, you and I post the word "shat" at almost the same moment.

I don't know why I'm acting this way. I don't do this for a living.

OK to hear ear-piercing shrieks...

What is it with the screechers these days anyway? I don't recall anything like this when I was a little kid.

Maybe it was because screeches like that in public would earn a swift smack from most parents in the 50's and early 60's?

 
Never forget, though, that:

If you outlaw kids, then only outlaws will have kids.

Or something like that.

I like kids.
When people bring a kid in my store who behaves well, I sometimes give the kid a little tchotchke or compliment the parent on how great their kid is.

But when I see an unruly bunch get seated at a table near me in a decent restaurant, yeah Ralphie, I cringe.

That doesn't mean I have some weird anti-child attitude.

I like to be with other adults socially. But not if they're acting like assholes.

I remember a transpacific flight returning from New Zealand, a late evening departure where everyone wanted to sleep. Mrs. Michael and I were exhausted, the departure had been delayed a couple of hours by weather, and immediately behind us was the whiniest, noisiest most obnoxious brat of a girl I have ever encountered. I think she was about 4. Worse yet was the mother, who had no idea what to do other than plaintively attempt to appease the kid, which of course only encouraged her.

After about three hours, I lost it. I turned around and snapped at her to shut the kid up. She looked at me helplessly and said she was doing everything she could. "HIT HER" I nearly yelled, in a tone suggesting I would if she didn't.

The kid's eyes got reeeal big. Mom looked utterly shocked and horrified. I'll never forget the expression on her face -- at the time it was deeply satisfying. Dad, it turns out, was sitting about five rows back, close enough to hear me, with their older son. He quickly came forward to swap kids with Mom. Didn't say a word to me.

The little girl was not heard from again. Mrs. Michael and I finally fell asleep.

Let me say something in defense of these parents that every one is bashing. It seems we hardly live close to our own parents and relatives anymore who would normally give us not only advice, but help.

I had my kids far away from my family. There were times I was so tired and frustrated I thought I would die.

Next time you see a young mother with a screaming kid in a store, try and help. I actually keep some cheap little toys in my purse and if that happens I get it out and hand it to the child. Without exception, they have stopped crying. I think they are not only surprised by a stranger giving them a toy, but they all love these stupid lil McDonalds toys! I usually start asking the child about the toy I just gave him so he can completely forget what he was crying about.

Sometimes the relief and gratitude on the mother's face makes me want to cry.

I remember.

RWS:

What a sweet idea! I'm going to carry tows in my purse too.

Seems like I remember someone telling me that he misspells when he comments drunk.

I do misspell when I'm drunk.

I never said my spelling was any better when I'm sober.

The absolute best part is his description of his antagonists as "former cheerleaders and beauty queens" who "have a very strong sense of entitlement."

Sounds to me like Mr Positive Energy McCauley doesn't like women any more than he likes children.... if you get my drift.

RWS, I don't think anyone is bashing parents who are trying to cope with an unruly kid, but not succeeding. What everyone is griping about is self-centered, indulgent parents who make absolutely no effort to corral their brood as the kid(s) makes his best effort at driving everyone around him nuts. That's not being overwhelmed; that's being an inconsiderate jack-ass.

Michael,

You might want to rethink following in RWS' footsteps. Sadly, in this day and age, it's highly likely that as a male your act of kindness would be misinterpreted where RWS could get away with it.

I noticed in the article that the parents responses only dealt with the "loudness" aspect, none addressed the running amok. I believe that most adults will tolerate a certain amount of loudness for a period of time. It's the obnoxious physical behaviour that should not go unchecked that draws the most complaints.

As a 25 year Police veteran one thing that really irks me is when I am in the presence of a parent with an unruly child and the parent says "if you don't behave that policeman is going to lock you up". I long ago began responding to this situation by saying "what's wrong with you, why do you want your child to fear the police"? "If anyone should be arrested for bad behaviour it's you"! Over the years that's been met with a variety of responses, but mostly with a shocked look because they were expecting the nice policeman to say that's right junior if you don't behave you are going to jail. Take my advice never do that to a toddler. If you do there is a goood chance that twenty years from now the tyke will be at a protest rally, will spit on a cop and then he'll be required to eat his meals through a straw for a while.

Funny, but where I live (relatively small town) the parents of the obnoxious brats are all conservative Bush voters. Bad parenting knows no politics.

If you go to the Lileks article linked to in the post, you'll notice that his daughter committed what many of the guardians of civility who've posted comments here would consider absolute mayhem before Lileks noticed the damage, with the help of a clerk. I guess that makes Lileks a negligent parent, an asshole, a libertine, and a symbol of social decline and moral decay.

I would be pretty sure my kids would behave themselves absolutely if they were in Mr McCauley's little slice of heaven, but I wouldn't want to go there with them, because the captious Mr McCauley betrays a certain animus toward children that would put me on edge every moment I and my children were in his establishment. For that reason, neither would I want to patronize his little cafe without my children. That, and the fact that a number of his other comments suggest that he's a tremendous tool.

Over the years I've been privileged to be Santa at several different malls across the nation. From my own experience, children are children whether it's in Hollyweird, Brooklyn, Iowa or Washington (state). The difference is the parents.

I have been priveleged to have shy angels tell me they only wish to see their brother for Christmas, and greedy little hellions who think the entire Macy's catalogue is only the beginning of Christmas. Checking the parents in each case as much as possible, I could see why the children asked and acted as they did.

If a minor commits a criminal act, in many states the parent is held liable for any restitution. It seems to me that it is not out of line to allow the parent to discipline the minor accordingly for "infractions" (as long as the disciplining is consistent and consistent with the infraction), since the older the child gets the higher the potential liability to the parent.

Which leads me to this: When a parent refuses to use discipline to a misbehaving child, it should be incumbant upon any adult to be able to point out the misbehavior, and it should also be a mark of shame to the parent that someone else has to point out the misbehavior.

PTBNL: And when he noticed it he corrected it. That's the difference.

PTBNL: And when he noticed it he corrected it. That's the difference.

As most parents would.

Seems to me, though, I'm reading a lot of posts evidencing a "one strike and you're out" attitude. You know: The clerk in Lileks's story goes home and reports her tale of Toddlers Gone Wild on Ace's comments. I suspect that Lileks's response as he relates it in his article would not satisfy some of the moralists here.

That's not to excuse those idiot parents who sit by and do nothing as little junior dismantles a restaurant or screams for 5 minutes straight.

I just think all these anecdotes about bad child behavior have been told fromr time immemorial. Hell, it's even a trope from really old comic strips.

It's clear to me that McCauley doesn't like kids and he doesn't want them messing up the karma of his little cafe. That's his right. It's obviously also his right to keep out the idiot parents who let their kids run wild and ruin the atmosphere for everyone else. But, after reading some of McCauley's comments and about his responses, I can fully understand why even parents with reasonably well-behaved children would not want to patronize his establishment. If he loses enough business, maybe he'll relocate to a place where he'll not be bothered by attractive women and their brood.