Here's a fun thread on the subject.

The word "gulag" pops up a lot on left-wing sites these days. Because Al Qaeda? All just political prisoners, don't you know.

what a huge shock.

Allah, you sure slog through some odd sites - like you're always the go-to guy for Andrew Sullivan's latest. Just sayin'.

I blame Goldstein.

You'll see cameos from him and Bill in that Feministe thread, btw.

Ah - that explains it. I met him briefly at one of the Rocky Mountain Blogger Bashes. Lovely wife and kid, and an unsettlingly normal superficial appearance. But 'neath the surface . . .

And digging deeper we find that the two ladies running the blog are hotties, and that BillINDC is horndogging around the place. It's all snapping into place.

ace,

It's a "good leak", unless it was leaked by the dark prince himself, Rove. Then of course it becomes a crime so heinous that even the anti-capital punishment crowd will be calling for Ol' Sparky.

Here's how to determine if a leak is good or bad.

Leak that hurts a Democrat or makes a Republican look good - VERY BAD

Leak that hurts a Republican or makes a Democrat look bad - VERY GOOD

Use these definitions and you can determine if the leaker needs to be frog-marched out of their job and executed or given a tickertape parade for being a hero whistleblower.

I'm expecting Harry Reid to call for a special prosecutor to investigate these leaks right about now...

This "leak" is straight up Treason with a capital "T".

Without a "secret" facility where you can hold clowns that you made a clean snatch on, you can't try and run their intel/commo networks under false flag, nor can you try and flip them and send'em back out.

If we're forced to put'em in some (relatively) public place like Gitmo, the whole world will know they're there very quickly and we loose all the advantages of the opposition not knowing some bad guy has been compromised.

Whoever leaked this info needs to be put against a wall.

Ok, there was some loose shit in my comment above. It should read:

Leak that hurts a Republican or makes a Democrat look good - VERY GOOD

Where is porter goss? Isn't there anybody in charge over there at the CIA? Maybe we could get Zell Miller over there. Straighten the place out.

The sources noted were "former CIA officials". Could be some of those folks who resigned when P. Goss came in to clean house. Still Treason.

Rather than draining the swamp of terrorism, I think it's about time to drain the swamp at Langley.

I blame "Alias".

Take the journalists for this and the Pegasus Air leaks and demand to know who their sources are. If they refuse, lock them up for contempt or charge them as accessories.

I'm sick and tired of this "journalist exemption" to our laws, whether BCRA our the "leaking classified info" laws that Fitz is fond of. The first amendment promises Freedom of the [Printing] Press , it doesn't promise any immunity to criminal prosecution for crimes commited in what was printed

Only one little nitpick: it's Romania. As in, the birthplace of Vlad Dracul (literally The Devil) who was ever so keen on driving a stake through his enemies. I hope American investigators tap into this rich local tradition of interrogation.

The European Comission is keeping a low profile for now, but for some in Old Europe this would be the perfect opportunity to fume some more about the Wild Wild East whose flat tax and plain willingness to work more than 35 hours a week is threatening their Welfare State.

You guys are fucking hilarious. No seriously, you make me laugh. "Al-Qaeda Prisons." Holy shit man do you even listen to FoxNews. Or, because you don't fucking understand what the stories say, are they just another piece of the permanent immobile Liberal establishment? Gimme a break.

Provide me with the name of one "Al-Qaeda" operative who has been held and tortured at Gitmo. Oh, what's that you say? "All of them," well, I'm sorry, it appears that you've lost the game, but don't worry, you're clearly not interested in reality, anyway.

Provide me with the name of one "Al-Qaeda" operative who has been held and tortured at Gitmo?

How about none of them, since we there are no credible allegations of torture at Gitmo.
Of course there is the facts that
1)AQ doesn't have a published membership roster to identify them with, or for that matter a uniform or rank structure (you know, the things required for them to have Geneva protections?)
2)I haven't seen DoD printing the names of any suspects held at Gitmo (and I hope they dont) It avouds the whole "They got Achmed? Someone call Mohammed up and tell him to go to ground before those nasty American wymyns force him to talk"

How about none of them, since we there are no credible allegations of torture at Gitmo

I have been reliably informed that the bagles were occasionally cold, and corn flakes were soggy.

SHAME ON BUSH - Bagels? We fed them Israel food? Oh, I am just gobsmacked. Leave it to the rogue Bush administration to disrespect the faith of those political prisoners.

EMAIL OF THE DAY - "Free herbal viagro can eb yours with this special offer! Buy free verbal viagro today!" Yes, America needs to hear the truth about the Bush administration. Why isn't the president willing to be honest with us?

Point is, no one at Gitmo has been charged of plotting terrorism. And trust me, they are being tortured. Whether you think a woman smearing pen ink on you and telling you its her menstruel blood is torture or not is entirely subjective, and yes, it is.

Whether you think a woman smearing pen ink on you and telling you its her menstruel blood is torture or not is entirely subjective, and yes, it is.

It is? Torture? Dear me. It's icky, sure. But, you know, I demand a little more than "ewww...gross!" from my torture allegations.

Allow me to be the first to call you a pussy.

You know, the left's horror at the 'torture' of prisoners at Guantanamo bay would have a lot more sincerity if they were equally appalled by say, the murder and desecration of contractors in Fallujah.

What was it Kos said...hmm...oh, that's right. "Screw them."

So take your feigned outrage, grease it up with your crocodile tears and shove it...well, I'll let you pick the orifice. I'm good like that.

"Bagels? We fed them Israel food? Oh, I am just gobsmacked. Leave it to the rogue Bush administration to disrespect the faith of those political prisoners"

Its funny. No matter how much you people suppose to support Israel, your anti-semitism always manages to shine through. I guess the only thing that superceds your jew-bashing is your hatred of muslims, all of whom belong to the anonymous ranks of Al-Qaeda. I guess Cheney was right... you can hate them all?

And by the way, miss kitty who posted upthread? You wanna talk about a welfare state? How about you look at the percentage of funding for your public goods come from "blue states." And I'm not talking about welfare and food stamps (though we do keep your poor people alive while you watch tv); I'm talking about your Schools, roads, fire departments, and policemen.

All of you worthless opinion mongers had better start showing some respect to the hand that feeds you, or all the productive, profitable states in this sham of a "union" might just secede and become the truly impressive nation that we might be without your dead weight.

Point is, no one at Gitmo has been charged of plotting terrorism

Well, the hearings on whether they were 'unlawful combatants' were held a year ago, and those who were not 'unlawful combatants' were released. Since they are not US citizens, they have no due process rights - they are POWs. So your statement is nonsensical, and where it makes sense it is incorrect.

Kos lost his head and spoke without thinking--something you people can surely relate to--because he was a real soldier, getting no respect and no pay for it, while these people who get paid seven or eight times as much as the genuine soldiers in genuine harm's way daily get extra christmas bonuses every time a single one of their big-government, cronied colleagues dies.

Kos was a soldier. How much time have you dedicated to serving your country? No, putting an over-priced two-dollar "Support our troops" magnet on the rusty bumper of your pickup truck while you rally to send more of them to their deaths in the name of encouraging warfare with the very people you presume to quell, doesn't count.

All of you worthless opinion mongers had better start showing some respect to the hand that feeds you, or all the productive, profitable states in this sham of a "union" might just secede and become the truly impressive nation that we might be without your dead weight.

I live in Boston, dipshit.

Point is, no one at Gitmo has been charged of plotting terrorism.

Because its not a crime its an act of war.
Soldiers are not criminals, though they do engage in normally criminal behaviour.
AQ are not soldiers (as they refuse to ascribe to the Geneva requirements for soldiers) but they choose to engage in soldiery actions (and many more that would get a real soldier up before a tribunal)
And as non US citizens they have no Constitutional protections for there crimes!
We tried the criminal approach- it was called the Clinton administration. The one that refused Osama when he was offered to them!

And let me be the second to call you a pussy.
Smearing somebody with REAL menustral (or pigs) blood isn't torture.
This is torture ,as is this.

Pussy

Hm. Houseman seems to have a peculiar redneck fixation. Houseman, did the movie Deliverance make you feel funny...down there?

Squeal like a piggy, Houseman.

Squeal!

Oh, and Kos's veteran status doesn't give him license to say stupid bullshit, so don't try to gain some reflected immunity from criticism.

Since they are not US citizens, they have no due process rights

Read the geneva convention and ask yourself why your neocon leaders ever signed it without your permission, just like everything else you whine about.

Ask John McCain what he thinks about it.

I'm not asking you to like me or agree with what I say. But I implore you, investigate reality see what its like out here.

No matter how much you people suppose to support Israel, your anti-semitism always manages to shine through.

I guess Andrew Sullivan-mimicking irony isn't your medium.

How much time have you dedicated to serving your country?

We've got a lot of ex-military here. Me, for instance. My wife, my dad, her dad, three brothers-in-law and a sister-in-law all served or are serving as well. I'll let others speak for themselves, but let me note that for every military voice the left can dredge up, the right can muster 4. So Kos's military experience, while admirable, doesn't lend him much extra credence around conservative sites.

Also nice to see you've picked up on the year-old (pretty much exactly), immediately debunked, blue states-feed-red-states complaint. Even if it was true, it would be a remarkably elitist and classist argument for a true liberal to make.

Read the geneva convention and ask yourself why your neocon leaders ever signed it without your permission, just like everything else you whine about.

Geneva convention does not apply. You never have to apply it to an adversary that does not itself sign onto the convention, philosophicaly or literally. You don't have to apply it where the combatants aren't in uniform, either. Oh, and, soooooeeeee!

What about when the "combatants" are just plain old regular folks, with nothing more than that damning brown skin we love to hate so much?

Read the geneva convention and ask yourself why your neocon leaders ever signed it without your permission, just like everything else you whine about.

Harry Truman was a neocon?

Here's the status of the Gitmo detainees:

President Bush today has decided that the Geneva Convention will apply to the Taliban detainees, but not to the al Qaeda international terrorists.

Afghanistan is a party to the Geneva Convention. Although the United States does not recognize the Taliban as a legitimate Afghani government, the President determined that the Taliban members are covered under the treaty because Afghanistan is a party to the Convention.

Under Article 4 of the Geneva Convention, however, Taliban detainees are not entitled to POW status. To qualify as POWs under Article 4, al Qaeda and Taliban detainees would have to have satisfied four conditions: They would have to be part of a military hierarchy; they would have to have worn uniforms or other distinctive signs visible at a distance; they would have to have carried arms openly; and they would have to have conducted their military operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

The Taliban have not effectively distinguished themselves from the civilian population of Afghanistan. Moreover, they have not conducted their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war. Instead, they have knowingly adopted and provided support to the unlawful terrorist objectives of the al Qaeda.

What about when the "combatants" are just plain old regular folks, with nothing more than that damning brown skin we love to hate so much?

I'm pretty much okay with most skin colors, myself, except that weird orangy one people get when they take those Vitamin A supplements to support tanning. Creepy. And civilians caught up in a sweep are let go when their status is determined. Most of the people we've rounded up have been let go (and a few made it back to the battlefield from Gitmo, too).

"Kos was a soldier. How much time have you dedicated to serving your country? No, putting an over-priced two-dollar "Support our troops" magnet on the rusty bumper of your pickup truck while you rally to send more of them to their deaths in the name of encouraging warfare with the very people you presume to quell, doesn't count."

A hell of a lot more than he did - and unless you spent a decade in uniform, a hell of a lot more than you. And my yellow sticker is on my nice, clean gas-guzzling SUV that I drive in the Blue State where I live (and occasionally into the Blue State where I work).

"What about when the "combatants" are just plain old regular folks, with nothing more than that damning brown skin we love to hate so much?"

Whoah whoah whoah. Whaddaya mean "we," dingus?

I spend a lot of time at right-wing blogs, and less time, but still a lot, on left-wing ones. The ONLY people talking about "brown people," etc., are Kossacks.

Stop projecting.

Its funny. No matter how much you people suppose to support Israel, your anti-semitism always manages to shine through.

Fuck you, you hypocritical Jew-hating WASP asswipe. You and little suburban white communist cocksuckers like you would dance in the streets alongside Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the Al-Aqsa Martyrs, Fatah, and Hezbollah if Israel was wiped off of the map and every Jew annihilated.

FUCK YOU.

All of you worthless opinion mongers had better start showing some respect to the hand that feeds you, or all the productive, profitable states in this sham of a "union" might just secede and become the truly impressive nation that we might be without your dead weight.

Didn't a bunch of you idiots threaten to move to Canada? What happened? Lose your passport?

Its funny. No matter how much you people suppose to support Israel, your anti-semitism always manages to shine through.

Next time we'll explicitly include the tags, so that even a humor impaired unhinged nutjob like you can understand it.

those who were not 'unlawful combatants' were released.

Several already recaptured subsequently it should be noted.

This is part of the left's terrorist "right to work" program.

You and little suburban white communist cocksuckers like you would dance in the streets alongside Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the Al-Aqsa Martyrs, Fatah, and Hezbollah if Israel was wiped off of the map and every Jew annihilated.

They'd be "dancing" at the end of a rope though because these bleeding heart morons don't understand the nature of this enemy.

And by the way, miss kitty who posted upthread? You wanna talk about a welfare state? How about you look at the percentage of funding for your public goods come from "blue states."

Because it's all about you, isn't it? So how much do you think the great state of New York contributes to Romanian public goods?

I support my President and yours to do whatever is needed to fight this subhuman filth masquerading as holy warriors. Hell, I'll donate Christina Aguilera cds to lend a hand.

I'm not asking you to like me or agree with what I say

No? well, ok then.

you're different.

About good leaks and bad leaks:

Whistleblower leaks are to reveal hidden criminal activities in the supposedly-transparent work done by our civil servants. Examples abound.

"Bad" leaks are the ones against whistleblowers and others, for personal revenge, private gain, and usually involve privileged information being misused.

Gray areas? Give me an example.

On the torture question:

Why do you suppose some people insist on talking about the religious humiliation stuff as representative, rather than the 100+ deaths of prisoners in US custody?

Isn't it really peculiar to claim there is no torture while ignoring the deaths attributed to beating, suffocation/broken ribs, etc.?

I guess you might find some more examples of WHISTLEBLOWER leaks relevant here... namely the military folks who have stepped forward to reveal what is going on...

Or read this.

Or stick your head in the sand.

Gee, I sure hope our boys got some good intel off those guys before they snuffed them.

Killing them is good, but capturing them is better. Then after getting what we need, killing them is kind of good again.

The ciiirrrcle of liiiiifffe....

The ciiirrrcle of liiiiifffe....

Hakuna Matata, indeed!

The supposedly super-sekkrit CIA prison in Romania is supposedly located in the SE of the country. I'd recommend a visit to Sighisoara, further west, to Vlad Tepes' (Dracula) little museum of horrors.

No way, tubino, the identity of CIA agents and operatives and operations is sancrosanct! I bet there will even be a justice department referral for this outing about secret jails. Why did they have to out these people! I bet there are places and people who were compromised. no excuse, these people were and are NOCs.

I am shocked that tubino actually link to the Wash Post, I was dreading going to another site that claims the Lyndon Larouche is a Bush stooge (ok, that claims the NYT's is Bush's stooge). Wilkerson has a paper trail that white house offered "And even some of the ways that they detailed were not in accordance with the spirit of the Geneva Conventions and the law of war." I don't know what this means, but what is the spirit of the geneva convention supposed to be in this respect?

Not exactly a bombshell, Froomkin wants it to be. I know that for one very special prisoner, the secdef authoirzed taking off the gloves, he was a very high level Al Q. I doubt he is one of the 100's dead. Mark Bowden wrote about this. Like the Iraqi prisoners in the photos of Abu Gharib, most of the so-called abuse against prisoners comes as reprisals or in self defense from the prisoner's own violence against guards, self, and other inmates.

Other inmates tend to exaggerate abuse claims, because they have been instructed to. It seems that there a few vocal american (in name only) (AINOs)who wish to believe that their country is bad, and will support any enemy of their country. These false claims are directed to these AINOS to help spur their efforts to hurt the GWOT effort.

CIA ops are so sacred that even the discussion of a Langley analyst is off limits.

Houseman, it's only a useful whistle blow when they show something being covered up.

100+ dead detainees is only interesting if the number is high enough and no investigations or punishments are taking place.

Boilerplate: Of course, every life is sacred and we want no one to lose their life, etc. etc. etc.