That is Fred Phelps and his clan of idiot nuts. They protest anything and everything just to get attention. They protested a memorial service for Mr. Rogers here in Pittsburgh a couple years ago, claiming he was a fag enabler and all sorts of crazy stuff.

Just ignore them, it's for the best.

So many things about this fire me up to the point where I doubt I could form a coherent sentence....

You're right Ace in pointing out the 10 Commandments stuff. Granted, I haven't read the Bible cover to cover (as I'm sure these fucksticks have... repeatedly), but I think most of the flack against homosexuals comes from the Sodom and Gomorrah bits, not from the mouth of Jesus.

It absolutely amazes me that there are people like this who claim to be following God and his teachings, yet are totally oblivious to the whole "Love thy neighbor" teachings, which, in my opinion, is pretty much what Jesus was getting at the whole time.

... I was having such a good lunch too....

Reaching across the party lines a little bit today, eh Ace? Great work.

Hey, put it this way, at least these guys aren't our major political fundraisers.

My problem, fat kid, is that they exist. Their signs are fucking ugly too. I bet they smell bad to boot. Praise our Lord Jesus Christ.

What a really disgusting display. Pretty self-righteous bunch of dimwits. Funny how they feel comfortable condemning a homosexual based on biblical grounds, yet they conveniently ignore:

Matthew 7:5

"You hypocrite! First remove the beam out of your own eye, and then you can see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother's eye."

Sorry fact is that these protestors will be used by many to paint all conservatives as hate-mongers.

Rightwingers eh? (1) I don't know of anybody else on the right who will have anything to do with this Fred Phelps creep, and (2) Fred Phelps (if you have the stomach to look over his website -- godhatesfags.com) is pretty much anti-American. He thinks that America is cursed and that George W. Bush is going to hell for carpet-bombing civilians in Iraq. He's convinced that God hates EVERYONE, because we're all sinners and God hates sinners. His view of humanity and of life appears (based on all I've read about him so far) to be so dark and dreary and depressing that he actually reminds me of those Islamist creeps in the Middle East who want to destroy every infidel on the planet, because the only permissible way of life is one that leads to women getting their heads blown off for the sin of walking around outside without a male relative accompanying them, or for the sin of dishonoring the family by getting raped.

Rightwinger? Uh-uh. No way is this guy one of us. No way.

Jerry Falwell, who blamed 9/11 on lesbians and gays, Pat Roberts who concurred with Falwell, Ralph Reed and Jim Dobson are major fundraisers for the GOP. Their money should be flushed down the toilet.

The Catholic position on homosexuality is as follows:

2358. The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359. Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

See any hatred in there? Me either. Phelps is just a bigot and should be ignored by everyone.

I'm not big on ignoring stuff like this. The left ignores their own wackadoos, and I call them on it.

So, to be even close to consistent, I have to point this out.

Needless to say, Ace is right on this one. The theology of Fred Phelps and his band of merry haters is completely off-track when it comes to homosexuals. Jesus did not mention homosexuality, nor was it mentioned in the Ten Commandments.

Guess Phelps missed that part in Sunday School.

Whenever I see Phelps, I'm always reminded of a particular passage of scripture:

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

There is a biblical prohibition of homosexuality in Leviticus (I don't know where; look it up).
But, there's also a prohibition against eating shellfish and wearing garments made of different kinds of cloth.
Is one more durable than the others? Who knows.
Go figure.

I hear you ace. The darker sides of my thoughts would have this guy silenced forever. His brand of hatred can only hurt, and has nothing to do with religion or G-d. It also has nothing to do with politics.

He is in a party of his own making. The heretical a**hole party.

I don't think these guys are really rightwingers though. They will attack any cause or event to get publicity. The fact that people assume they are rightwing only serves to further the stereotype of the right as being anti-gay.

Chad:

Contrary to what everyone seems to think, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah is not about homosexuality; it's about rape and murder and general bad hospitality.

There are prohibitions against homosexuality in the Old Testament (e.g. in the book of Leviticus). Jesus never said anything about homosexuality, but there is stuff in the New Testament which indicates that men and women are intended to marry (or choose celibacy), which can be taken as an endorsement of heterosexuality.

In any case, I can't imagine anybody actually believing that Jesus would approve of desecrating a funeral. No Christian could do that to a grieving family.

Thats a Drudge headline if I ever saw one. The Right?

Guys, the "Jesus never said anything about it" defense is pretty lame when it comes to issues of sin. Jesus also didn't say anything about selling pirated DVDs, or partial birth abortion. So what? Do you really think he'd give his seal of approval to such activities?

Also, there's a verse at the end of the Gospel of John that mentions that Jesus did and said lots more that never made it into the Gospels, but that it would take too long, and too much room, to write down everything Jesus did. So how do we know that Jesus said nothing about homosexuality?

The few times Jesus did have something to say related to sex, it did not stray from what would be considered "traditional" mores - he didn't tell the adulteress "Whatever floats your boat", he said "Go and sin no more." His statement on divorce was stricter than was allowed in Jewish law of the time. Unless you've done some serious Bible study, I recommend not attempting Biblical arguments.

That said, Fred Phelps and his merry haters are vile people who need lots of help... and a lot less attention. These guys thrive off of attention, even if negative. It's difficult to deprive these people of an audience as they certainly aim to provoke in public places, but they don't care about mockery - as long as they get press.

Yes, ridicule these jackasses, but don't even try to "engage" in their arguments. Sometimes there is a good time and place for ad hominem attacks. This is one of them.

SJ -

Thanks for the clarification. I'm not all that religious any longer (if my knowledge of S&G didn't tip you off), but it really does bother me to see people highlight and use bits and pieces of the Bible to suit their own personal beliefs.

Nevermind the "Judge not, lest ye be judged" stuff, but I mean, c'mon.... I think any 2nd grader with an even remote familiarity of the Bible would tell you that the general premise of the thing is to just be good people.

I'm gay and was raised Catholic and I can honestly say, I doubt I'm gonna burn in the eternal fiery depths of hell, 'cause why? I'm a good guy.

(for the most part anyway)

Fred Phelps is a Democrat. I'd post the link but for some reason your filter won't let me.

From what I've heard about the situation, the soldier being protested wasn't gay. Phelps and his merry band of morons (most of them family members & in-laws - anyone hear the theme from "Deliverance" playing in the background?) consider those who fail to condemn homosexuality as rabidly as they do to be as bad as the homosexuals themselves. Since the armed forces have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy, they are advocating homosexuality in the eyes of Rev. Fred, and might as well go ahead and wear a dress.

One of my wife's brothers in law lives in Manhattan Kansas, and his work takes him over to Phelps' hometown occasionally. He describes the Phelps "compound" as looking like "Koresh's place after the wackos take control of the cult & drive it EVEN FURTHER off the cliff." These people are going to snap & start shooting people eventually.

Homosexuality is condemned by Jesus, but I don't recall any passages about scorning gays at their funeral.

I thought all this time Jesus was into this "love thy neighbor" stuff.

To finish my thought:

You are required to love thy neighbor, regardless of their faults or sins. This includes homosexuals, rapists, murderers, etc.

As a Christian I am not allowed to even hate Osama.

I can't remember where I read it, but I think it was a related story that was linked either from this site or maybe RWN. It was about another very similar Phelps protest. It was at a funeral for a female service member in which they did the same outrageous shit, and part of it was claiming that she was gay even though she was to be married to her boyfriend. Anyway, the point of why I'm bringing it up was because the story I read was on a blog by a serviceman who attended the protest as a counter-demonstrator to support the family. According to his account, a cop came up to him and said that they [the Phelps people] do it all the time in order to antagonize people into attacking them so that they can sue them. The cop warned him to keep his cool and not to fall for it. The town couldn't stop them from doing their protest, which was right across the street from either the church or the cemetary, but what they did was to mobilize the fire dept. and they parked all the fire trucks in a row blocking off the protesters, so that the poor family wouldn't have to see it.

The theory about them doing it just to try and sue someone that they baited seems to fit, it's a possible motive I can see behind doing this horrible stuff. Wish I could remember the guy's site/link.

Can't understand why they can get away with this, even with the 1st Amendment and all. Wouldn't this kind of thing clearly constitute "fighting words?" Clearly these guys deserve to be clubbed like baby seals, ruthlessly, regardless of their bleating.

The Wikipedia entry for Phelps makes for interesting, but maddening, reading. If even half of this stuff is true, then these guys are a cult and guilty of desecrating the name of Christ.

One example:

On occasion, however, members have been convicted, albeit for minor offenses. Jonathan Baxter Phelps, whom Topekans consider to be the Phelps son most like his father, is the Westboro Member most often cited in complaints, aside from Fred Sr., and has been arrested the most, most often for assault; Topekan residents told the Topeka Capital Journal in 1993 during their research for the book "Addicted to Hate" that Jon Phelps regularly "shrieks" obscene comments to passerbys at pickets, including threats of sexual assault to women. In 1993 he was taken into custody for an incident stemming from a local theatre group's production of The Nutcracker. Jon stood outside the theatre and asked passing children, "Did your daddy stick his prick up your ass last night?" while holding a sign reading "Fags: The Prick goes up the ass." He was later found guilty of misdemeanor assault and disorderly conduct.

It seems to me the Phelps cult is made up mostly of the original hater's extended family. These guys sound like a bunch of real jerks (to put it mildly).

To say this guy's theology is twisted is an understatement. He deserves nothing but scorn.

As a Christian Conservative, I must say that homosexuality is a sin. But any man who was a special forces soldier and who served honorably deserves the respect that should always be accorded to brave men who serve their country. I'd have no problem serving with gays if they'd shut up about it and do their duty. And I'll bet most men would rather serve under the command of Alexander the Great than King Darius any day.

But frankly I wonder if there's more to the story?

No matter how you slice it, "homophobia" isn't a word.

As a Christian Conservative, I must say that homosexuality is a sin. But any man who serves his country honorably as a special forces soldier deserves the respect accorded to our brave men. I'd have no problem serving with gays if they'd shut up about it and do their duty. And I think most men would rather serve under the command of Alexander the Great than King Darius.

But I wonder if there's more to this. If not, this is a disgrace and we should salute this man.

I don't have a link, but I think Russ from Winterset has the basic story correct. I seem to recall reading recently that Phelps and his gang ("cult" seems a little too dignified) were planning to start protesting at military funerals. "Don't ask, don't tell" is way too gay-friendly for them. They also feel that 9-11 was a judgment on America for insufficient gay-bashing.

Ace is right to give this some attention. I pretty regularly criticize the Left for accommodating some very unsavory, not to say flat-out crazy, characters. Simple fairness says we should try harder not to apply a double standard on our side. And who says this pusbucket is on our side, anyway? Phelps has nothing to do with anything I regard as conservatism. He's all about teh ghey just like the Nameless One is all about the joooos.

Aitch748 - Rightwingers eh? (1) I don't know of anybody else on the right who will have anything to do with this Fred Phelps creep.

There are plenty of Right Wing Christians that have the same views as Phelps, but are less obnoxious in public about it. But the onus is on conservatives to hold moronic religious zelots in check or they get hit with another Terri Schiavo Fiasco.

Interesting though that the media always shows the bigoted conservative, the frothing at the mouth Terri lover....and asks the Republicans and conservatives "What are you going to do about them??" - while never challenging Democrats and liberals to condemn or denounce the true rabid America-hating traitors in their midst, or even their version of the stupid Schiavo flock - the stupid Lefties whining about terrorist rights or comparing America to the Nazis, Gulags, and Pol Pot.

So if we brought Phelps together with the TIMECUBE guy, would they reach some sort of Internet Moron Critical Mass and mutually annihilate each other? Sure, it would tear off a little pinch of space-time, but I figure it's worth it. We could always put a fence around it.

Defense Guy,

Thank you so much for the The Catholic position on homosexuality. I do disagree with it that all gays did not choose to be homosexual. But the rest is, well, dogma.

Sigh. Cedartoad hops in to bring in Schaivo. You still don't get it, do you, toad...

Sigh.

72 Roman Cathoilics

I disagree with that as well. I beleive that it is entirely possible and reasonable that some gay folk are born that way. It does point out that it is 'involuntary', which may well be a shout out to that idea.

I mostly included it to show that it's message is a demand for tolerance and respect of homosexuals.

"You hypocrite! First remove the beam out of your own eye, and then you can see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother's eye."

Brown eye?

And I don't think there were any homosexuals around when the Bible was written. I'm pretty sure they didn't exist until sometime after Judy Garland sang Over the Rainbow in The Wizard of Oz.

Oh, and for what it's worth, Christopher M. Piper, 43, who was buried after this funeral, was straight, and a hero.

May God have mercy on the Phelpses because if they cross my path, I won't. That's the difference between God and me.

While I have no doubt that there are people that choose to be gay for whatever reason, be it attention, can't get women, whatever, I feel for the most part that it's something completely out of one's control.

I personally can't see why anyone would look at the gay community and what they go through (and in turn the image they project) and say, "Where can I get me somma 'dat shit!?!?!"

And that is my two cents.

Phelps rightly deserves public scorn. He's a jerk.

Oh, if interested in the NT position on homosexuality, Romans 1:26-27.

The mistake Robertson and others make is to focus exclusively on one type of sin, which is dangerously close to judging it.

This hateful asshole is anything but a Christian.

Most of what the bible defines as sin is simply behavior that harms the sinner spiritually. Even if you believe that homosexuality falls under this category, your concern should be for the harm it does the sinner, not your own (sinful) rage toward homosexuals.

It's too bad that people like this cause some people away from God.

...cause some people to turn away from God.

One other commentor pointed out that Phelps is a democrat. He also was a civil rights attorney in the 1960s and 70s. He successfully forced the city of Casper, WY to remove a Ten Commandments monumentdonated by the Fraternal Order of Eagles by threatening to erect his own disturbing monument. Jerry Falwell has called him a "nut" for which he has pledged to protest Falwell's own funeral. (Although I believe he says it is because Falwell has left the truth of Calvinism for the lucre of Arminianism. If you aren't otherwise interested in Protestant theology, it's probably better not to try to understand what that means.) I agree the guy's a jerk but I'm not so sure he can be considered right-wing. As a policy wonk he seems a bit eclectic.

Chad

I personally can't see why anyone would look at the gay community and what they go through (and in turn the image they project) and say, "Where can I get me somma 'dat shit!?!?!"

I personally can't see why anyone would look at crack heads and winos on the street and say, "Where can I get me somma 'dat shit!?!?!" And yet we have lots of crackheads and winos on the street. Does that mean they were born crackheads and winos? I think not.

The difference, 72, is that no one who has never had a drink of wine or a rock of crack is walking down the street going "You know, I need a bit of crack desperately."

Whereas, people who have remained celibate have feelings and physiological effects generated by certain sexes, whether or not they've ever had any sexual contact with them.

The alcoholic and drug user comparison to homosexuality is so off base. And actually really offensive.

But, this is Ace's site, so offensive is ok =)

Not to derail this thread, but there is ample evidence that alcoholics and drug addicts are genetically predisposed toward their addictions.

Of course, the solution in those communities happens to be abstinence.

Whether or not you believe that homosexuals should apply the same solution hinges upon whether you think it is harmful behavior.

(1) I don't know of anybody else on the right who will have anything to do with this Fred Phelps creep, and (2) Fred Phelps (if you have the stomach to look over his website -- godhatesfags.com) is pretty much anti-American.

I scrolled so this may be repeating what others have said, but I am impatient.

Yes, the above is correct. Fred Phelps stands for Fred Phelps and no one else.

He's said he's going to protest any dead American soldier because his place was bombed or something like that and so America is being punished for it. That's right, the whole country is being punished because Fred Phelps provoked someone into bombing him.

Talk about a shit stirrer. He seems to have a publicity need that borders on death wish.

Anyways, he's "on the right" certainly. To the right of the KKK.

I have never met a single real-life person with views anywhere approaching those of Phelps, and I know some pretty anti-gay people, including right-wing Christians.

Uh, oh. We've got to get this thread back on track...

Fred Phelps is an asshat, and so are his followers.

Whew. That was close.

I have always contended that every "group" has their fringe - liberal, conservative, christian, jew, atheist, white, black, hispanic, etc.

This is just one of those "fringe" groups that only try to attract attention to their defraived views. I see them as no different than the terrorist who have perverted a peaceful religion.

Uh- correction in above post...

that would be DEPRAVED views.

Ace really needs to get spell check on here.

I have always contended that every "group" has their fringe -

Including Ace of Spades HQ.

This Phelps cock$ucker [and I call him that because it is the most likely term to make him appoplectic] did this at the funeral of Spc. Carrie L. French, 19 on June 14 [ish].

He has plans to do the same thing at Dover AFB on July 11 and here's a list of his upcoming appearances just in case anyone in, as he puts it, "the fag-infested military" wants to have a word with him. His list of upsoming funerals is here.

The Pastor Cock$ucker's motivation? "in religious protest and warning: If God kills you with an IED in Iraq, thereby taking vengeance on this evil nation for bombing WBC[his church] with an IED in a vain attempt to stop our anti-homosexual preaching, we will picket your funeral when you arrive home in a body bag."

This is a sick, dangerous, tortured being who manages to collect other sick dangerous tortured beings and wreck havoc wherever they go..

This group of wackos is not even a fringe group of the right-wing conservatives or Republicans. NOR are they anymore Christian than the KKK filth that quoted the Bible and waved the flag.

No matter how much the left or the Christianphobes try to portray all right-wingers as being of the same ilk as these sickos... the Republicans refuse to prostitute their party by aligning themselves with any evil out there as long as it can vote.

It may sometimes take a while to weed out less obvious racists and other soul-sick individuals or groups in our midst, but you will never hear the Republicans defending them or giving them a seat of honor at their convention. Fred Phelps is about as right wing as Michael Moore or as Christian as Osama.

And that is the truth whether ya like it or not... the left have a right to their own opinions, they don't have a right to their own facts.

Fred Phelps is just a kook. And a very anti-right wing kook at that.

The site (God hatesfags.com) calls the religious right "lukewarm cowards"

What Phelps doesn't need to worry about is one of those 3rd SFG guys talking to him. What he needs to worry about is an anonymous long-range bullet. I wouldn't go out of my way to piss those guys off, and I'm in a unit the SF troops use as a farm team. I can think of better ways to get killed than lock horns with them.

ROB

The difference, 72, is that no one who has never had a drink of wine or a rock of crack is walking down the street going "You know, I need a bit of crack desperately."

I don't understand the difference, it seems like you're making my point, didn't the first post say:

I personally can't see why anyone would look at the gay community and what they go through (and in turn the image they project) and say, "Where can I get me somma 'dat shit!?!?!"

The implication is that the gay life has so many terrible consequences, who (if they had a real choice in the matter instead of being born that way through no fault of their own) would choose it?

To which I replied using the same logic that:

I personally can't see why anyone would look at crack heads and winos on the street and say, "Where can I get me somma 'dat shit!?!?!" And yet we have lots of crackheads and winos on the street. Does that mean they were born crackheads and winos? I think not.

The implication is that alcoholism and drug addiction has so many terrible consequences, who would choose to be an alcoholic or drug addict? Yet we have legions of them.

I agree that some of us may be born with a certain set of potentials and tendencies (though that's not been proven) but these are not determinative of our behaviors, we are not programmed with instincts in the same way that animals are, who must obey them automatically without thinking. We have a choice as to whether we follow them or not.

As to the idea that drug addicts and alcoholics are born that way, as a former drug addict and alcoholic myself with long-term clean time and soberity I am living proof that we need not be slaves to our tendencies, no matter how powerful they may seem at first.

BTW - I don't miss drinking and drugs at all, not ever! And though it has been many years, I really am grateful every sinlge day that I am clean and sober.

Um, Ace? I know someone else pointed it out, but Phelps and his KKKLan aren't right wingers. Phelps is a Democrat and has run for political office in the past as one, so he's hardly a right-wing. What he and his group are is fucking nuts. The lot of them ought to be locked up for psychiatric evaluation because they just ain't right.