Ace, this entry brings back memories of how I felt when I first saw (via a rented VHS, around 1985) A Clockwork Orange. After years of bowdlerized TV heroes (I wasn't yet really movie literate and barely knew about James Bond), when CO was over, I literally felt as if Kubrick himself had grabbed me by my (at the time, lazy, stained, dirty, community college-attending) shirt and slapped me around for a couple hours. Here was a truly amoral hero... who didn't give two shits about was was right, except for himself... and still, the government was worse, as portrayed in the film.

As to '24', my brother-in-law, who routinely refuses to vote (he wouldn't even go out for Ahnold during the special recall election here in California, although he's a die-hard action-violence movie fanatic) because 'they're all crooks', LOVES '24' and treats every episode as he does his latest DVD conquest-- he shuts the doors, turns off the phone, and forbids all others to contact him until the credits have rolled. Perhaps something in him longs for civic participation more physically fulfilling than poking a hole in one of those LA County ballot-slot slips. Would be interesting if someone did a poll of '24' fans to determine their political persuasions and degree of participation in the process...

PS Ace-- what's a 'raptist'? Something like a Baptist? :-)

Here I was liking Jack Bauer because he kicks ass.

Some great film moments from the "can be meaner than you" school"

Dalton, from "Road House": I want you to be nice until it's time to not be nice.

Buffy: Hey Ken, want to see my impersonation of Gandhi?
[crushes his skull with a mace]
Lily: Gandhi?
Buffy: Yeah, if he was really pissed-off.

Han Solo: (Shot first, I don't care what they put on the DVDs).

24: The Jack Bauer Power Hour

Twenty years from now the high watermark of American Television will be Kim Bauer being stuck in a cougar trap.

Sorry Ernie Kovacs, sorry Mary Tyler Moore, see ya' St. Elsewhere, it's Kim in a Puma Trap.

.

I think of Jack Bauer as a good family man and a very loyal friend.

The producer has been giving interviews. He mentioned Streisand is a fan and some other moonbat, too.

"24" helps us all to heave a sigh of contentment that any evil (torture, betrayal, every conceivable kind of murder including genocide) done in the service of "our" power, is okiedokie.

Erg-
I'm hoping "our" power is watching the show and taking tips and notes on how the job gets done.

ergastularius,

You suppose your moral preening will protect us from terrorists?

That must be some weapons-grade moral preening you got there, Hoss.

Bar rockcod
Epinephelus ergastularius

"Fish in this group are bottom-dwelling ..."

And what an entertaining sigh of contentment it is.

The left has lost all ability to root for the good guys. Eh. If they want to roll over and keep taking it in the ass, so be it.

Haven't seen the show myself, but for your comparing-and-contrasting pleasure, I recall InstaPunk had a similar commentary last June.

"In many ways it's a silly show, but all its sound and fury does reinforce an elementary imperative that too many people forget: REMEMBER THE MISSION. That's what distinguishes the Jack Bauer character from all his supposed allies in the government and the counter-terrorism organization he works for. The bad guys don't forget their mission, but the good guys keep getting distracted by their romantic relationships, their egos, and most alarmingly, by their inability to imagine that prospective mass tragedy far outweighs the ugliness of what must be done right now, right here, to prevent it."

(http://www.instapunk.com/archives/InstaPunkArchiveV2.php3?a=560)

24 lost me as a viewer when the SecDef tortured his own son a few times for the "good of the country"... as if that would ever happen. We won't even momentarily detain rich Saudis after 9-11. We all talk a good game about protecting Americans by any means necessary... but we wouldn't dare trample on the rights of the rich and privileged. And even if we wanted to "kick ass," would we really want to tell our troops to start burning villages, raping women, flaying suspects? I don't want the troops to do anything that even approaches torture. It would bring shame upon them.

In the end, the show constructs torture in a dramatic and entertaining way that is much more efficient and effective than it could ever be in real life. Torture is stitched up into a nice ticking time bomb scenario... leaving people with the impression that it rarely occurs, and when it does, it works. But then you look at Saddam Hussein's rape rooms... and you get a real picture of what it looks like when your government embraces torture: Filthy, corrupt, and absolutely evil.

Plus, Jack started saying "nucular" instead of "nuclear"... which is pretty transparently propagandistic.

I'm so glad I'm not a liberal.

Long-faced, unhappy motherfuckers, always looking for a reason to be unhappy.

Are you kidding me?

Conservatives are the ones who keep telling me that America is going to be destroyed every minute. That my family will fall apart if gay people get health insurance. That sex is a one-way ticket to hell. And that rock and roll plays evil messages backwards. That New Orleans was smitten for serving spicy food. Have you seen Ralph Reed? Grover Norquist? Karl Rove? Talk about some hardcore curmudgeons (not that John Kerry and Al Gore are anymore exciting). Bush can't even talk until he starts partying like a Kennedy (and then he sounds like a Stuttering John if he became a televangelist).

I know y'all in here get down a little differently than the fundies that you hang out with at the polls... but there is probably a little more dour puritanism going on in the camp that invented puritanism.

I might not like watching TV... but come hang out with me... It's like Blue Velvet, only nicer.

Good heavens, that is one hell of a strawman you've created.

Have fun whacking away at it.

The black guy who was president in a way reminded me of GWB in that he was willing to give Bauer leeway to do what needed to be done to keep the country secure. Yeah, the story has a lot of annoying little subplots, but what I especially like 24 for is the way it keeps reminding us that we are not playing war with Tinker Toys. 24 keeps it in yer face that the enemy is amongst us, and though he may not be Arab Muslim, he has drunken of the noxious KoolAid that produced 9/11 (the bit with the blonde who whacked her Arab boyfriend.). Thus, the message is that we need to combat not just people, but ideology, too.

he's willing to do things his political opponents and would-be Presidents simply won't.

Yeah, like ride a horse.

Oh, wait.

The whole damned party is full of straw men... That's the problem. A big party of paranoid victims who cry "liberal bias" whenever anybody criticizes them and kick down anyone who has the unfortunate luck of being beneath them.

Give it a few years... get rid of the neocon losers... and maybe the GOP will come back.

I think y'all should lose the suits, go beat some drums and read Iron John, cry about how hard it is to be a man, hug each other, and then find some war hero (or even a TV star) who can lead you to resume the struggle against Big Government all over again. (But at least wait until we pay down the deficit a little and rebuild the military).

In case you think I'm making any of this up... just look at John Bolton... he's an exemplar of this special kind of nutball.

...

...

You're a parody, right?

In case you think I'm making any of this up... just look at John Bolton... he's an exemplar of this special kind of nutball.

Oh, okay. For a moment I thought you *were* making it up, but then you said "look at John Bolton" and noted he was a "nutball," and then I realized that everyword you said was 100% true.

Damnit, I been bamboozled. I been had. I been PWNed by the GOP!

he's willing to do things his political opponents and would-be Presidents simply won't.

Yeah, like ride a horse.

You have a point.

Thanks for reminding us that when you can corner the Democrats on what sort of policy they'd follow they sort of stutter out a plan that sounds exactly like what Bush is doing now. You know, freeze the assests of terrorist groups, gather intellegence, build up Iraq's infrastructure, military and police so that we can gradually pull out, stuff like that.

Unless you bring up Bush's plans first, and then they just complain that he's spying on Americans and ruining the country and living in a bubble.

-

Big Tobacco - Oh no! Look behind you! A CHRISTIAN!!!! Run away!

Of course, after years of hearing that we should treat terrorism as a matter of law enforcement and not war, I don't particularly feel any reason to trust Democrats to run the show now they can't even agree to use law enforcement to prevent terrorism...

...and thankfully, neither do the majority of voters.

You don't think John Bolton is a screwball?

[Defamatory statement deleted.]

Have you seen his moustache? His is clearly a special kind of depravity that is shared by men who are moved to machismo by feelings of inadequacy.

It's not quite evidence... It's anectodal. But amusing as hell when you think that these people are considered paragons of virtuous manliness.

For a blog that uses Mencken's words in your banner... y'all are pretty dim. Mencken would have eaten you all alive. It is YOUR throats that he was talking about afterall.

Avoid defamation, asshole.

Man, I'm so sending this Tobacco guy flowers.

Have you seen his moustache?

Wow, I'm totally in awe of BigJerGenThom's logic.

Wow, I'm totally in awe of BigJerGenThom's logic.

Right on the heels of his fundamentalist strawman, nay, bogeyman. Not a very impressive ambassador for the liberal point of view. But my impression is that the more serious thinkers on either side don't go trolling on opposition blogs looking to stir things up. Witness the continuing abysmal quality of those washed ashore by the moonbat tides.

I'm sorry, "Big Tobacco," but I don't understand your logic. Did you actually call John Bolton "depraved" because of his moustache?

That's it? That's your sole evidence of such a charge? He wears a really big moustache?

Jeez, just when you think liberals can't get any sillier...

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0505/S00240.htm

I didn't say he was depraved because of his moustache. I said he was depraved because of the circumstances surrounding his divorce. Which is part of the public record and which have not been refuted.

According to the his wife's testimony, she was forced to engage in unsavory acts with other men. There are more details... but you can read about them from the link furnished above.

Evidently, y'all delete comments that might offend the gentle sensibilities of your swaggering readers.

Ace of Spades? Should be Ace of Neuters.

You have a point.

Thanks for reminding us that when you can corner the Democrats on what sort of policy they'd follow they sort of stutter out a plan that sounds exactly like what Bush is doing now. You know, freeze the assests of terrorist groups, gather intellegence, build up Iraq's infrastructure, military and police so that we can gradually pull out, stuff like that.

Unless you bring up Bush's plans first, and then they just complain that he's spying on Americans and ruining the country and living in a bubble.

Actually, I was pointing out that Bush is actually pretty lacking in the macho department. I've seen six-year-old girls ride horses without a problem; Bush pees his pants at the thought and calls himself a cowboy. Come to think of it, he's pretty lacking in the sanity department, too.

But anyway, now that you mention it, I agree; the Democratic plan is basically what Bush says he's doing. I'd prefer to cut out the graft, though. How much money has simply "disappeared without a trace" in Iraq? $16 billion? That's 4 supercarriers. If Venezuela sank 4 of our carriers tomorrow, we'd go to war. And yet when it disappears in Iraq, it's just a few broken eggs in the freedom omelet. And then when I think how far $16 billion could have gone back in my home state of Louisiana... well, it's not a happy thought. I'm not saying that a little graft (and compared with the final cost of this war, it's really not that much...) is the end of the world, but it reflects a certain half-assed attitude that isn't exactly inspiring. So, yeah. Tell ya what. Take what Bush is doing, get rid of the thievery and replace it with competence and you have my Iraq plan. If nobody agrees than maybe we have bigger problems than we realize.

But if one could be depraved through excessively perverse hairstyles... It could be him. Have you seen his toupee?

I mean, if I sold out my country for Wall Street, I'd at least demand that Halliburton furnish the best rug that money can buy.

Maybe it gives us some kind of diplomatic edge... Kind of like, "If they'll go out in public with hair like that, they'll do anything!!!!" It would work on some of the people who have been responding to this thread. There seems to be a consensus here that the best defense is an incredibly ridiculous offense.

Oh, right, I'd forgotten that any allegation made against a Republican is ipso facto true. Thank Gaia for the New Zealand media.

No where in the link you posted does it say that his wife testified to your alleged crap. No where in you link does it say such allegations are public record. Thank you for showing what a real sleeze you are. Dumb ass.

I totally agree with Scar, the Democrats have been ineffectual wimps. But, you have to admit that Condi's announcement of troop withdrawals which came hot on the heels of Murtha's call for "redeployment with rapid response teams in place following the elections" looks like a stammering GOP rehash of a good idea. And it explains why the GOP is frantic to trash Murtha by any means necessary.

Scarshapedstar, your post is confusing; you've left off some italics tags, so it's not clear what comments are yours and what comments are others' you're responding to. Anyhow...

Take what Bush is doing, get rid of the thievery and replace it with competence and you have my Iraq plan.

I totally agree with you. My only problem is that, for all the faults I see in Bush, the democrats have done nothing to convince me that they'd be any better.

You're making sense here. But the democrats as a whole can't even agree on this much. Just try posting that comment over at Daily Kos and see what kind of response you get. And that, my friend, is why the democrats continue to lose.

BigTobacco believes that if you can't win the fight in the arena of ideas, its ok to level any charge (championed by that paragon of virtue, Mr. Larry Flynt), not knowing whether its true or not. That my friends is moral depravity.

Bush pees his pants at the thought and calls himself a cowboy. Come to think of it, he's pretty lacking in the sanity department, too.

Then scar baby jumps in and proves my point. The democrats not only don't have any good policy ideas, they're morally bankrupt to boot.

Not only did BigTabacco stoop to leveling cheap shots by Flynt, he even lied about what Flynt said. Once again he is a dumb ass.

Take what Bush is doing, get rid of the thievery and replace it with competence and you have my Iraq plan. If nobody agrees than maybe we have bigger problems than we realize.

The very fact that you'd make a statement like that tells me what kind of problems the Democrats have. And I'm loving it.

THE DEMOCRAT PARTY:
We'll do everything Bush does! But we won't be Hitler!

A room full of Bolton lovers. Great! Now I've seen everything. And a true Irony considering that this particular administration has been shockingly close to the trashing of Cleland, McCain, Kerry, and now Murtha.

Don't you see a pattern here? A bunch of pansies who have to consistently prove they are tough by trashing men who have spilled their own blood for this country!

Can't you see the anxiety there? They have to compensate for their own lack of performance by tearing down those who have actually done something.

You don't need to be a psychologist to get it. And you don't need to be a sociologist to see that there are millions of suckers who gravitate towards macho displays to compensate for their own feelings.

Whether he went to Plato's Retreat or not... John Bolton is just another one of these guys who thinks that being blustery and launching missiles is the same thing as standing up.

It's just shows you how brainwashed people are.

I've never voted for more Republicans than Democrats in my lifetime.... and yet y'all just call anyone who disagrees with your very narrow view a Democrat. And then you gloat over all the "good ideas" that the Republicans have without any perspective or any idea about how we got the freedoms that we have today.

You oughtta tell the dead miners what a great idea it is to fill the government with corporate lobbyists. Three cheers for the "Risk Society."

Keep talking, Tobacco. I've long since given up on people like you being embarassed by yourselves, but at the very least you can keep on embarassing your political party.

Power to you!

By the way, don't wanna blow your tiny mind here, but the "GOP plan for troop withdrawl" was on the books way before Murtha opened his mouth. Luckily for the donks, they can count on people like you being stupid enough not to notice.

A room full of Bolton lovers

No. A BDS-Free zone, which you seem not to have much experience. One day you will grow up and realize that character assasination makes *you* the one who looks bad. Now off to bed with you. Tomorrow's a school day.

"Also remember that the right wing, with the bombings of black churches, the murders of black civil rights leaders and innocent bystanders alike, lynchings, gay-bashings, the Oklahoma City Bombing, and other atrocities throughout our history have brought terrorist acts against their fellow citizens."

BigTobacco’s contribution on another site.

1)Bombings – I’ve never bombed a black church, nor lit one on fire. Although, I did smoke out with my friend Reggie on Saturday. He’s black and from Tennessee – does that count?

2)Murders – Sorry, none for me. Although I did once accidentally punch an innocent bystander in the middle of a brawl.

3)Lynchings – I’ve tied up a few women of color, but it was part of sexual activity – so you know it didn’t last very long.

4)Gay bashings – Sometimes I rag on my gay friends. Oh yeah, an ex-girlfriend was in to both chicks and rough sex – so I guess I kind of bashed a gay.

5)Oklahoma City Bombing – No bombings of public property here, however, I have gotten bombed with my mailman.

6)Other atrocities –Turned down sex with a former NFL cheerleader because she was annoying – looking back that was pretty atrocious.

Oh yeah, if you are going to rag on facial hair, at least use a funny term like molesterstache.

No, we're simply a room full of people who can both read and tell the truth -- unlike you, dumb ass.

Also don't want to give you whiplash by accidentally causing you to remove your head from your ass too quickly, but...

You oughtta tell the dead miners what a great idea it is to fill the government with corporate lobbyists. Three cheers for the "Risk Society."

...You probably aren't smart enough to have considered that mining accidents have been on the decrease since 2000. Despite the Risk Society and them corporate lobbyists and even in spite of John Bolton's mustache, safety measures in our mines have been improving steadily.

I don't personally think Bush had any direct influence in that, but it proves that your statement is not only disgusting, but false on its own merits.

Good for you! I hope you're proud of yourself, because I'd have a hard time believing even your own mother could be.

BigTobacco:
A room full of Bolton lovers. Great! Now I've seen everything.

Really? Have you seen a man eat his own head?
So then, you haven't seen everything.

"disappeared without a trace" in Iraq? $16 billion?

Uh, nope. Not as far as I can tell. Unless you've got a reference that says otherwise.

Y'all are so serious about this Bolton thing.

For a bunch of tough guys who approve of torture.... you can't even stand for a moment laughing at a guy who has a really bad moustache. In a few years, when Hillary is in the White House and the Taliban takes over... they are going to do worse things to you than make fun of John Bolton. So, I just want you to be ready. You know, so that you can keep fighting the good fight against the estate tax.

I mean his toupee, maybe he needs one, whatever. And maybe I am totally out of line to think it is bad that a man would watch another man make love to his wife. (If it were a Democrat, we'd have to take this very seriously? Of course!) .

OK... I'll admit it was trashy to even bring it up. What happens at Plato's Retreat stays at Plato's Retreat.

But a moustache is something a person can control. He could cut it off. You'd think somebody would have mentioned it to him. Especially when he has so many adoring fans.

I don't personally think Bush had any direct influence in that, but it proves that your statement is not only disgusting, but false on its own merits.

I don't think that leftists have any concept of why the rest of us find such statements to be so morally disusting and offensive.

I didn't say he was depraved because of his moustache. I said he was depraved because of the circumstances surrounding his divorce. Which is part of the public record and which have not been refuted.

As Shawn said, the only circumstances listed in the divorce proceedings are that his wife moved out on him while he was on a 2-week trip to Vienna. The wild sex allegations were brought forward by Flynt and "corroborated" by some unknown sources.

I swear someday we'll meet a troll who reads his own sources, but it certainly won't be BigTobacco or ScarShapedStar.

But a moustache is something a person can control.

I suppose having helped your mother trim her bush all these years makes you something of an expert but I don't think you can project your experiences to somebody you don't know personally.

But a moustache is something a person can control.

You know not of what you speak. Even John Bolton fears John Bolton's mustache.

I don't think that leftists have any concept of why the rest of us find such statements to be so morally disusting and offensive.

It's depressing, isn't it? My only comfort is there are enough of us to be offended by things like that to keep them out of power.

TOBACCO- Okay, seriously. Is that Jersey under a new name?

http://store.yahoo.com/buyinprivate/seikcleanper.html

The Seiko Cleancut Razor - Shaves Everywhere!

"In 1999 we started to sell quite a few products for shaving your pubic area..."

It's pretty obvious to me that BigTobacco is crushing on Bolton pretty hard.

What's the matter, Big T? Did he not return one of your phone calls?

Cool fact about John Bolton's moustache:

One day John Bolton attempted to trim his moustache. The next day he found the tires of his car slashed and his dog hanging dead by a noose in his garage.

He hasn't shaved it since.

steve_in_hb
...

Oh great, now we've got some dude with same stupid name referenced in here. ...and all the sorts of comments that probably win respect with such a macho crowd. I regret to inform you that I am not the same as that BigTobacco. He sounds like an even bigger redneck than I am.

Sortelli, You've got to be nuts if you think that the private sector is making things safer thanks to deregulation. It wouldn't surprise me the number of mining accidents has gone up or down in a narrow time frame. What surprises me is that they were fined a small amount for allowing miners to work under hazardous conditions. What surprises me is that in general, under both Clinton and Bush, corporations have such a stranglehold on government power.

You can talk about whatever right wing or left wing statistics you want... but the fact is that this government spends more time destroying our industrial base than it does training and preparing average Americans to keep our country strong. We should be protecting our workers first and foremost. Wall Street and the Political Parties should come second.

TOBACCO- Okay, seriously. Is that Jersey under a new name?

Sure seems to be. Note the telltale overuse of ellipses. Then again, it could be just be a manifestation of Leftist Groupthink.

"I regret to inform you that I am not the same as that BigTobacco. He sounds like an even bigger redneck than I am."

Email the "other" BigTobacco has:
mailto:drvelveeta@yahoo.com

Email "this" BigTobacco used above:
mailto:drvelveeta@yahoo.com

Per Occam's Razor...

Naked Testicle Spiderman says that John Bolton's mustache is named Regis.

"Cool fact about John Bolton's moustache:

One day John Bolton attempted to trim his moustache. The next day he found the tires of his car slashed and his dog hanging dead by a noose in his garage.

He hasn't shaved it since."

Who did it? Skull and Bones? Trilateral Commission? The Pink Mafia? I'm glad somebody has a sense of humor around here.

But really... other folks should stop talking about the "leftists" and the "democrats" when you are confronted by someone who celebrated when Bush was elected in 2000, but then wanted someone better in 2004. It makes you sound paranoid.
---------

Getting back to the thread. 24 is a pretty cool show. But only a fool would mistake it for a realistic view of what torture is. And only a depraved person would suggest that our troops should be engaged in something that the United States has, to our credit, opposed.

John Bolton doesn't have a mustache. A mustache has him.

but then wanted someone better in 2004.

We all wanted someone better in 2004. But no other party ponied up. And you may have voted for Bush in 2000, but today you sound like any other poorly-sourced KosKid reciting the latest talking points generated from their fertile, if infantile, imaginations.

Why do we ride liberals so harshly? Because time and again they come in with some hysterical allegation which latter turns out to be groundless. You've done your part to keep their streak intact.

Cool fact about John Bolton's moustache:

One day John walked into a bar and the bartender, upon seeing him enter said, "Man, that thing is huge! How long did it take to grow it?" John Bolton's moustache said, "Oh, about 57 years."

Occam's Razor does not really work as well on human actions as it does on events outside of human control. For example, it is equally plausible that somebody did that because they do not like me. Just as the easiest explanation about the lack of WMDs in Iraq is that Bush lied... you can't prove it with Occam's Razor... although some people try to. There are just too many other things that could have happened. For example, it would be in Saddam's interest to hide or destroy the WMDs... so to simply say they never were there because they aren't now is not enough. You'd need better evidence to prove a lie. The same goes for John Bolton's wife leaving him. Maybe he did go to a swinger's club. Maybe he didn't... it's just idle talk. But we do know that he has a moustache and that this is a problem to me.

In Guantanamo Bay, they refer to John Bolton's moustache as "the hammer of God."

For good reason.

Oddly enough, Occam's Razor won't work on John Bolton's mustache, either.

P.S. Sorry I called all y'all the Ace of Neuters. That was just mean.

Buddy, if I were you, I wouldn't worry about us.

You should really be apologizing to John Bolton's mustache. That thing has no frickin' mercy.

Just as the easiest explanation about the lack of WMDs in Iraq is that Bush lied

These are just the kinds of things you toss out that make me think you're a big fat f'n liar. Yeah, you voted for Bush. And I voted for Lyndon LaRoach.

Tobacco:

You are wrong.

Absolutely wrong.

Staggeringly, fantastically, appalingly, shamefully, ignorantly wrong.

Despite the "stranglehold" of corporations under both Clinton and Bush, mining accidents have continued to trend downward through the years. In the last five years, not a narrow span since we're talking about THE ENTIRE TIME BUSH HAS BEEN PRESIDENT mining fatalities have been much lower than they were previously. 50% lower than they were previously.

So your contention that Bush has somehow created or at least sustained a corrupt corporate culture that allows blue collar workers to die needlessly is completely unsupported by any facts, anywhere. If what you said was true, it would have to logically follow that mining fatalities have been on the rise and that is not the case.

So, now that you've stopped smearing Bolton's mustache and complaining that Republicans only smear people and brought up a topic that can actually be examined empirically, you are completely and utterly wrong. Is that surprising to me? No. You're a fucking idiot, and this is Exibit A.

So, are you the least bit embarassed by yourself yet? I'm willing to continue helping you to make an ass out of yourself if not.

BTW, sorry I called you a big fat f'n liar. You're probably not fat at all.

And, in fact, I think John Bolton would be a good mechanic or something. He deserves to have some kind of job... I just don't think he should be in charge of big things that go boom.

John Bolton's moustache smells like peanut butter, orange marmelade, and roast beef.

-sorry, did I say roast beef?
I meant Death.

I just don't think he should be in charge of big things that go boom.

Since when does the envoy to the UN get the launch codes?

BigTobacco -

So your explanation for the fact that someone has made 60+ posts on another blog using the same handle and email address as you is an impostor motivated by dislike. Frankly, that is either silly or delusional.

"... and as long as we focus on superficial differences in style (Democrats are evil lying hippie dixie chick-loving cowards, Republicans are evil racist pea-brained Toby Keith-loving curmudgeons) we will remain stuck in the ruts, unable to talk to each other and unite behind the common cause of reform."

I guess mustaches aren't "superficial differences in style".

Just as the easiest explanation about the lack of WMDs in Iraq is that Bush lied...

Actually, no, the simplest explanation would be that our intellegence was wrong, since believing that Bush lied would require him to have some sort of fantastic mental powers to both know Saddam had no weapons ahead of time and to hypnotically implant the idea in everyone else's head and that after he got the invasion he lied to get Bush then somehow decided not to go and plant any WMDs in Iraq because that would be dishonest or something.

Really, you're dumb as a sack of hair shaved from the ass of a very dumb man.

If you hold John Bolton's moustache up to your ear, you can hear the ocean right before you die.

Dick Cheney is in charge of a big thing that goes boom. A very VERY big thing that goes BOOM!!!

Actually, I do kinda like Tobacco. At least when you kick the living shit out of his half-baked kneejerk stupidity, he tries to get nice and chummy and convince you that all the other half-baked kneejerk stupidity attached to his handle out there was someone else.

Maybe he IS capable of being ashamed.

lauraw -

Actually, if you hold it near your ear, it detaches from his face and crawls in to your brain like that creature in one of the Star Trek movies. It then forces you to whore out your wife.

shaved from the ass of a very dumb man.

..or tubino, as we like to call him.

No, tubino is dumber than that man. Tubino is the one who does the shaving.

BigTobacco

You've got to be nuts if you think that the private sector is making things safer thanks to deregulation

Yeah, companies love it when their employees die. Good for profits. Listen, Wacky Backy, bad things happen in life. 40,000 Americans die on the highways every year, so should the President personally teach every American to drive safely?

I don't understand your hostility to corporations. Some corporations do bad stuff, sure, but that's because people can be bad. In general, I am not afraid of them. So brave am I, in fact, I show up for work in a corporation every day, and they, like, pay me and stuff, and they haven't even asked me to kill any customers yet. I'm sure it's only at matter of time.

Corporations are a good thing. They exist because people have found them to be an effective way of organizing people's energies. Corporations are folks working together for a common end. You know, like a village. Or a government, but without the threat of force. (Show me a corporation that has murdered 30,000,000+ people like Mao's government.)

Just as the easiest explanation about the lack of WMDs in Iraq is that Bush lied.

Nooo! This is an abuse of the principle! The explanation has to explain all the phenomena; you can't just pick and choose. In order to believe that Bush lied, you have to believe that he lied about something that he knew would be embarassingly revealed post-invasion. Who the hell does that? Why didn't he plant the WMDs? It wouldn't be hard to do. Even a child know that if he tells the teacher that Mom gave him a note to excuse him from class, he has to forge the note. To believe that Bush merely lied is to believe in twenty impossible things before breakfast as well. It is not the simplest explanation.

Dick Cheney's cock and John Bolton's moustache once got into a fight in New Mexico.

The government had to create a story about the atomic bomb to cover up the true story.

Dick Cheney's cock and John Bolton's moustache once got into a fight in New Mexico.

Shh. What you speak of is legend. It is the reason philosphers still struggle to understand what would happen when an irresistable force meets an immovable object.

Those who answer the riddle invariably go mad from the knowledge.

Talk about the irresistible force meeting the immovable object!

Doggone it, beat me by a matter of seconds!

There are those who say that the last person who tried to figure that mystery out was split into two separate identities. That man was Dr Zetetic Sortelli.

John Bolton's moustache is la chupacabra.

"John Bolton's moustache is la chupacabra."

Now I know why he lobbied so hard to head the UN Committee on Goat Herding

Now BrewFan... I just said that calling Bush a liar is, no matter how tempting it might be to some people, not the right thing. And although you don't think I have ever voted Republican, it just says more about the state of AM radio than it does about you, personally.

As far as Sortelli goes... I'm sure that you know your numbers. But you should also know that the number of actual miners is way down over the last 20 years. In 1985, for example, there were about 155,000 coal miners... and in 2004 there were 64,000. From 1999-2004, we lost over 5000 coal mining jobs. 6000 in metals. 2000 in non-metals. So a slight downward trend in the number of people killed in mines is still a good thing... but to conclude that mines are safer because of this is not warranted. Since you are good at numbers, you can figure out the rates.

What disturbs me is that it happened. These men died. And right away people have to make sure that the company that they worked for doesn't take any flak for it. What sorry priorities. Say what you want about me... but my sympathies are with my neighbors. We all work hard... and we all will lose out if our jobs keep getting sent to India. Working people made this country. And I just don't worry too much if I offend a bunch of get-rich-quick portfolio-lovers by saying... yeah, I'm biased. I like people who work with their hands. And when push comes to shove, I am going to listen to them before I listen to some Ivy League creampuff yammer on about the "Risk Society." We live the risk society... it's called pray that you don't get sick. Pray that you don't get laid off. It's called work really hard and hope your boss will honor your pension. The Risk Society sucks... I''l take the New Deal any day.

That's a popular committee among the UN peacekeepers.

Cool fact about John Bolton's moustache

In 1984, when the diplomatic limo had a flat on the passenger's rear tire, the left lip hair jacked that sucker up in 27 seconds, changed the flat, and beat the record set by Ralphie's dad by 6.7 seconds.

BigTobacco, if you honestly believe that Bush is responsible for the deaths of coal miners in West Virginia, then there's nothing any of us can say or do to dissuade you of that view.

However, allow me to say that I find your beliefs both sad and infuriating. I would feel sorry for you were I not so disgusted by the things your hatred for the president and conservatives allows you to believe.

You're a sad, small person.

We live the risk society... it's called pray that you don't get sick. Pray that you don't get laid off. It's called work really hard and hope your boss will honor your pension. The Risk Society sucks...

And there is the kernel of the thing that socialism is built around.
Fear. Fear that there is no such thing as security, though it is a fact of life, and socialism doesn't fix it in any way whatsoever, in fact it makes things worse.

Buck up Wally. It gets worse.

But you should also know that the number of actual miners is way down over the last 20 years.

Well now, that's a pretty good explanation for why less miners die as time goes on. Less miners. As a trend, I'm not opposed to less coal mining as time goes on, either.

That's another blow against your theories of greedy corporations getting the government to protect them, seeing as the coal industry is going to eventually trickle away and be replaced by better, cleaner alternatives.

Bush had nothing to do with it either way, but that didn't stop you and your disgusting buddies from trying to link him to this for your own political gain, huh? Sickening.

I notice you're hammering that "..." key pretty hard while you try to shore up your populist cred. Getting flustered? That tingly sensation you are feeling is your common decency trying to break free of the box you crammed it in so it can strangle you.

OK. This troll has bored me into going to watch some TV and then get to bed early and build up some strength for my struggle with The Man tomorrow.

Cool fact about Bolton's mustache:

Someone once claimed to have seen it appear in a painting of the Virgin Mary.

Those who came to see it were miraculously healed.

"... and as long as we focus on superficial differences in style (Democrats are evil lying hippie dixie chick-loving cowards, Republicans are evil racist pea-brained Toby Keith-loving curmudgeons) we will remain stuck in the ruts, unable to talk to each other and unite behind the common cause of reform."

I posted that. But all that other racist/sexist stuff... that's just not my style.

Caspera... I agree that corporations are effective at getting things done. I just think they should be subservient to American interests... they should be regulated. When they aren't regulated... you get sweatshops and mercenaries and crap. If there weren't restrictions, you'd have people selling nukes to countries like Iran.

Corporations are filled with smart people that look out for themselves... I just say we let them. And let us ordinary, non-corporate entities use good government to represent our own interests. There is just no good reason, for example, that a company "representing" the United States in Iraq should get away with shooting civilians... this is contrary to our national interests and our mission. We need to hold them to the law... not deregulate them.

I just think they should be subservient to American interests...

Fascist.

Oh, and:

Corporations are filled with smart people that look out for themselves... I just say we let them.

People like to call that "deregulation."

How do you manage to believe two completely opposite things at the same time?

Orwell called it Doublethink. Little did he know how prescient he was.

Cool facts about John Bolton's mustache ("Regis"):

The house in R'yleah where dead Cthluthu lies dreaming? Rented from John Bolton's mustache.

John Bolton's mustache once bitch-slapped Leonid Brezhnev's eyebrows and made them go into the kitchen and make a pie. It's true.

In strange eons even death may die.

At the hand of John Bolton's mustache.

It's not Bush's direct responsibility. It is an entire generation of punks that don't even know a thing about the Great Depression and the New Deal, but are afraid that if they are asked to give some of their money to their government that it will mean that they get less out of life.

Of course things like social security are inspired by fear, but these are reasonable fears for one to have. Don't you have parents or grandparents that were saved from grinding poverty by this program?

I know I do. And I don't think any less of them for using Social Security.

But you have to wonder about somebody who hates something that has helped so many people just because it violates their principles. Helping the poor, disabled, and needy operates in the same moral economy as war. It's not a perfect solution to a problem, and parts of it might be unsavory, but you have to weigh the consequences and pick the thing that helps the greatest number of people. In this case, you force people to put their money towards the common good.

Only very naive people think this is a moral outrage. But if you go to a third world country and see orphans selling themselves on the streets and old people covered with flies, you'll think a little differently. Maybe it's fear. But I don't want to see old people who have made decades of sacrifice building America get left to the flies.

So swagger away, if you want to about how you know about hard knocks and all that, and I'll bust my hump trying to make sure that our schools get funded and that old people get their medicine and all that. And, I think I will win, because Americans are overwhelmingly unselfish.

The original name of the Stones' classic was "Sympathy For John Bolton's Moustache."

You are so full of shit.

I fear for your safety when John Bolton's mustache hears of your heresy.

When John Bolton talks, his moustache doesn't move at all.

That's the hallmark of a good ventriloquist.

Okay, did anyone here demand that all taxes and subsidies end immediately, or is Tobacco flailing away at more strawmen again?

John Bolton's Moustache has had numerous "host beings" throughout history, including Doc Holliday, Jack the Ripper, and Rosie Perez.

BigTobacco -

"I posted that. But all that other racist/sexist stuff... that's just not my style."

I don't know what you mean by racist sexist stuff? I just attributed the following to you:

"Also remember that the right wing, with the bombings of black churches, the murders of black civil rights leaders and innocent bystanders alike, lynchings, gay-bashings, the Oklahoma City Bombing, and other atrocities throughout our history have brought terrorist acts against their fellow citizens."

If you mean the comments afterward - they were my response to your characterization of right wingers as racists, lynchers, gay bashers, etc. It was my joking way of saying that my black, Mexican, asian, and gay friends would be surprised to learn of the barely suppressed evil lurking in my heart. Correction - they would be surprised to learn that the evil is motivated by racism, sexism, etc, they already know I'm evil. And fat. And lack social skills.

Also, I noticed in your writings a big bugaboo about Ivy League Schools - so you'll be happy to know I attended a large, public university.

Have we decided that mustaches are not superficial differences in style?

You're smart...what I said is simple. But I will clarify: Let's let the corporations look out for themselves. And stop giving them preferential treatment (like grants, subsidies, no-bid contracts). Let's tell them that they can make all the money that they want, but that we, the people, can set limits on what they can do when we think it interferes with the common good. We can shut a mine down when they break the rules. Let's start doing it. We can charge taxes on imports. We can require companies that do business here to follow our labor laws.

It doesn't make me a fascist to say that private contractors should be punished for doing things that harm our mission in Iraq. But what is fascist, in fact, is to allow for a convergence of corporate leadership and government leadership under the assumption that it is for the good of the people.

So swagger away, if you want to about how you know about hard knocks and all that, and I'll bust my hump trying to make sure that our schools get funded and that old people get their medicine and all that. And, I think I will win, because Americans are overwhelmingly unselfish.

Whoa there, brudda. "Trying to make sure that our schools get funded..."? I do not think that phrase means what you think it does. You should probably say something like "...screwing someone else who actually works for a living into paying $10,000 per kid for a school system that can't even teach kids that boy bands and Ashlee Simpson like, TOTALLY suck ass".

Whenever I see someone ranting about how they willingly pay higher tax rates to support their liberal beliefs, I usually imagine that this person is tenured faculty, a bureaucrat, or some recent college grad who's still pissed off that the taxpayers didn't furnish him with free beer during his undergrad years.

Tribes of sasquatches worship John Bolton's Moustache, praying for the day that "The One" will return to lead them in their Eternal War against the Yeti (which, by the way, pray to John Bolton's Moustache for the same reason).

John Bolton's Moustache apears on The Monopoly Guy and Mr. Peanut as a secret symbol of the Illuminati.

When Pat Robertson thinks he hears God, it's really just John Bolton's mustache fucking with him.

John Bolton's Moustache apears on The Monopoly Guy and Mr. Peanut as a secret symbol of the Illuminati.

Which, of course, was founded by John Bolton's moustache.

John Bolton's mustache looks at Michael Moore's scrotal-looking stubble and laughs heartily.

Getting back to the topic...was anybody else surprised that in the first ten minutes of the "24" season premire, Palmer and Michelle both got whacked and Tony wound up with a serious head injury?

...Not that brain surgery will keep Tony down for long; didn't he get his throat cut a couple of years ago? And missed only a couple of episodes?

John Bolton's mustache used to have a healthy side income appearing in porn as a pubic hair stunt double. It was crushed when the girls started shaving.

Cool Facts About John Bolton's Moustache thread

You're smart...

We like to think so, but it could be only because we're standing next to you and that makes anyone look smart.

what I said is simple.

Apart from being simply wrong, it wasn't really.

But I will clarify:

If by clarify you mean repeat your contradictory statements, by all means.

Let's let the corporations look out for themselves.

This is called "deregulation".

And stop giving them preferential treatment (like grants, subsidies, no-bid contracts).

How conservative of you. I thought you liked the New Deal?

Let's tell them that they can make all the money that they want, but that we, the people, can set limits on what they can do when we think it interferes with the common good.

That is called "regulation". It is the opposite of "deregulation".

We can shut a mine down when they break the rules. Let's start doing it. We can charge taxes on imports. We can require companies that do business here to follow our labor laws.

What a fantastically meaningless statement. I hope it makes you feel good, Lord knows you need something to prop yourself up on.

It doesn't make me a fascist to say that private contractors should be punished for doing things that harm our mission in Iraq.

It makes you a fascist to say that companies should be beholden to the will of the state. That's how things work in fascist nations.

But what is fascist, in fact, is to allow for a convergence of corporate leadership and government leadership under the assumption that it is for the good of the people.

Which, in fact, is exactly what you spent your entire post up to this point arguing for. Corporations working with government leadership for the "good of the people."

Jesus. I apologize to the sack of hair shaved from the ass of a dumb man which I compared to your intellegence.

Whenever I see someone ranting about how they willingly pay higher tax rates to support their liberal beliefs, I usually imagine that this person is tenured faculty, a bureaucrat, or some recent college grad who's still pissed off that the taxpayers didn't furnish him with free beer during his undergrad years.

Or he's a trust-fund baby. Or just someone who excels at spending other people's money. Like Kevin Federline.

Wes, thanks for posting what happened on 24 tonight, especially for those of us on the West Coast where it isn't on for another 30 minutes.

Any other spoilers or plot points you want to post to ruin tonights show for me?

FWIW:
Bill Whittle considered thugs that keep us safe in Tribes.

Say what you want, but this country is a great place for businesses to do business because we are overwhelmingly educated, we have a government that bothers to protect property and enforce its laws, and that we have incredible infrastructure. Say what you want about public schools, but for the most part they have been positive.

I totally wrote "Also remember that the right wing, with the bombings of black churches, the murders of black civil rights leaders and innocent bystanders alike, lynchings, gay-bashings, the Oklahoma City Bombing, and other atrocities throughout our history have brought terrorist acts against their fellow citizens." I was just disturbed by the list that followed... I'm glad you claimed that. I was very concerned that someone would attribute those ideas to me. And it wasn't clear from your initial post.

To explain my point, right wingers have been just as bad as left wingers when it comes to terrorism. I reject out of hand this idea that Liberals are any more complicit in terrorism than Conservatives. And, in fact, if there is a side in the United States which seems more willing to engage in acts of political violence, it has been on the right. To be fair, these are fringe groups, but I think it is fair to bring them up when someone accuses democrats of being in bed with terrorists.

And, reflecting on sentiments that have been expressed on this thread ("kick the shit out of" me, "doing what needs to be done," "kicking ass," "slitting throats")... I think that you do have the will to act and belief that violence is redemptive. Maybe I am wrong for saying this. But if I had to pick from two blogs.... say this one and dailykos... which one was more likely to attract people who would kill someone who they were afraid of... I'd have to say that it would probably be the ones with the death card on their banner. Maybe it's just a game to pretend you are tough. But I don't think you are playing. You've said it yourselves, Democrats aren't killers.

Well... I'm going to bed. Sortelli... Keep pulling for Ken Lay. Maybe he will be vindicated and I will eat my words.

Meanwhile, I'll go protest and teach kindergartners about FDR and how Jack Abramoff brought untold corruption to John Bolton's moustache.

Do we even need to be here for this fit of furious masturbation you're going through, Tobacco?

Because if you're going to do nothing but argue against points no one has made because you're not smart enough to understand, let alone criticize, anything we might actually believe, you might as well do it in the bathroom with the door locked, you know what I mean?

If you'd rather go hang out with the raging droolcups over at the Daily Kos, by all means, don't let the door hit your stupid ass on the way out. They're dullwitted enough to be impressed by your army of strawmen, so you'll probably find yourself in better company.

KosKids and people like you aren't democrats. You are left wing whackos who typically support ideas and theories that have failed miserabley through out history resulting in the murder of millions. Now go back to where you fit in.

Keep pulling for Ken Lay

Who? Why?

I will eat my words.

Come on, jackass, you're neither intellegent or honest enough to ever do such a thing.

Which is why you have to bring up Ken Lay and Jack Abramoff to hide the fact that you've done nothing but engage in smears and outright falsehoods since your dumb, fat fingers touched the keyboard in this thread.

Right. Kindergarteners really want a lecture on FDR.

I like that FDR fella myself. Funny thing about him, though. Some would say he lied us into war.

Uh, Brad...

...oops.

Me and my big mouth. Joel Surnow will likely have me whacked for that...assuming you don't do it for him...

Sorry, forgot about the West Coast time delay. I was taking part in a liveblog of the "24" season premiere over at Polipundit earlier tonight, and forgot where I was. That's actually the least of what happened tonight; there's still plenty of suprises for you to discover on your own. Feel free to forget what I said.

Meanwhile, you might want to avoid Polipundit if you're worried about spoilers. . And Ain't It Cool News, too.

Well, I don't know about you, but I think the little bastards had better warm up to that lecture REAL quick, or else we'll take those Japanese internment camps out of mothballs right f*ckin' now.

RESPECT MY AUTHORITAY, YOU LITTLE SHITS!!!!

> and I'll bust my hump trying to make sure that our schools get funded and that old people get their medicine and all that. And, I think I will win, because Americans are overwhelmingly unselfish.

You probably will win, because Americans are indeed overwhelmingly unselfish, or at least relatively unselfish compared to the Western world at large. We -- "Republicans too, Oliver," as FDR once said to Daddy Warbucks -- don't begrudge kids a quality education, nor old folks their necessary medications. But Americans also mistrust government, any and all governments, with a passion that is our birthright (by inheritance, that is -- few of us can claim to have earned it); and to paraphrase Mr. Paul Anka, we like to get full value on our money.

So, my bet is that you will win. And once you've won, the question will be whether you'll recognize it as a win; because, knock on wood, the system that pays for kids to go to school (possibly a private school) and for oldsters to age with dignity (possibly without Viagra and RU-486) won't look very much like the winning system we have today.

Well, I really enoyed the season opener. It needs more torture. I think that's coming tonight. Read it and weep, moonbats.

Sortelli...

Just an observation. Your chief tool of argument is personal attack. You spend a lot of time insulting people and mumbling about straw men, but very little time actually talking about substantial things. Instead you spend time casting aspersions on my character, when you know that your notions about my character have no bearing on the substance of my arguments. Anyone who knows about straw men ought to know about ad hominem attacks, too.

You're a smart person, obviously. You let everyone know. Why not just focus on doing what you can do well? Which is think about things and make intelligent comments. I, for one, would be more inclined to listen to you. But, you will probably flip out and be all nasty about even this grudging amount of respect, too.

People might write me off as a troll. But I have been dying to come back to Republican party, but I can't in good conscience, as long as it continues to be run by scoundrels (mostly because I am with y'all on the abortion and family values issues). Clean house. Show a willingness to recongize your own flaws instead of always trashing people. And push the zealots in your party out of the mainstream (For example, Pat Robertson does not represent the values of conservativism. Torture does not represent conservative values. Bigotry is not conservative). Democrats have plenty of problems, but I care more about the problems of Republicans because the party has changed so radically (Thanks to Rush Limbaugh, it has become the home for angry, resentful people. And it is tragic.)

You can point out that I am inconsistent for my savage treatment of John Bolton's moustache and his broken marriage. And you would be right. And for this, I am sorry. Maybe it is weak to admit error. I know it doesn't represent me that well. But that's what it is.

Instead you spend time casting aspersions on my character, when you know that your notions about my character have no bearing on the substance of my arguments.

You demonstrated that you were a sleazy liar. That is a fact that bears directly on your character and on your arguments.

But I have been dying to come back to Republican party. . .

Do you think anyone believes that statement? Again, you demonstrate you have no qualms about lying to win what you think is a point.

but I can't in good conscience

that's funny too.

I believe you BT, I don't care what the rest of them say.

Jeri wouldn't shut up either.

Marlboros are for pussies!

It's a funny thing. This all started because I said that 24 was bogus and that torture is something that we should avoid as a nation. People love their tough guy heroes, that's for sure.

It reminds of when I grew up. My dad was a bartender, so I spent a great part of my childhood in a bar. You hang out with enough seedy characters, you notice something about masculinity.

There are the blustering tough guys who talk about "kicking ass" and really need to show off a lot about how mean they supposedly can be. Then there are the guys that don't really bother to prove that they are tough. These guys usually have crooked noses and scars and tattoos and all that. When one of the overt "tough guys" gets a few drinks in him, he starts roaring about how bad is, and then starts looking for trouble. Invariably, he finds it, and it turns out that he's a lot less tougher than he thought he was. My dad would kick him out of the bar. Later, we'd come out and my dad's tires might be slashed or someone might follow him home or something like that.

None of these men ever hurt my dad. Because he wasn't looking for trouble. He wasn't particularly big or strong. But he was very serious about protecting himself. But most of the time, he was just telling jokes about himself, about others. He knew how to say sorry if he stepped out of line. And he wasn't afraid to tell someone when they stepped out of line.

I was lucky enough to get a scholarship and go to college. Here, I met a lot more of the blustery tough guys. They talk a lot about violence. Make a lot of trouble pushing around girls, making fun of the gay kids, drinking too much beer and screaming a lot. But, in the end, they just aren't that tough. They usually get embarassed and then lick their wounds and then it comes out the next time they have a couple beers. These guys, unfortunately, are the "backbone" of the College Republicans (Abramoff, Reed, Norquist, Rove, etc).

My observation about the fantasy of 24 and the fantasy of our current leaders was based on things gained through a life of experience. Our leaders talk real tough and like to kick people around as long as it is someone else doing the kicking and getting kicked. This heightens their wounded masculinity because they want to prove that they are tough, but they can only do it vicariously. This is the appeal of television violence, too. Same with violent sports and pornography. Losers trying to compensate for their own insecurities.

It makes for horrible foreign policy... even if it makes sense on TV. Hence, I think that 24 is a bunch of garbage.

It's not a beef that I have with the Republican Party. There are lots of great Republicans. I think Alito, in spite of his creative stance on executive power, will do a good job (maybe we will see an end to Roe V Wade). And John McCain doesn't have to talk trash to prove that he is a man. He's done it 20 times over in Vietnam and when he refused to stoop down to Bush's level during the primaries. But you really have to wonder about someone who would attack McCain for his stance on torture.

This is why the President's approval rating is so low. This is why the GOP is scared to death of Murtha. This is why Democrats are poised to gain in the next election. In spite of the lessons of Jack Bauer, Americans don't want to be governed by amiable sociopaths (even if its Bill Clinton). We want smart leaders who will represent the morals and interests of the American people.

Our leaders talk real tough and like to kick people around as long as it is someone else doing the kicking and getting kicked.

i suppose it depends upon your perspective, but from our view, the US is the principal stepping in (at last) to stop the bullies from picking on helpless innocents. As far as talking tough - that is the only language the bullies understand. Not talking tough emboldens them, the President's approval rating emboldens them, and your personal reservations embolden them.

If you don't think that you, personally, are working in support of the terrorists' propaganda efforts, you're not very cognizant of the widespread effects of your maunderings.

It doesn't matter if you talk tough or not, if nations perceive that they'll pay a VERY bad price for making war on the US they won't do it. This means actions that show that you're not fooling around.

Unfortunately the record from Jimmy Carter onwards has been weakness, retreat, surrender, running away which has only emboldened our enemies to believe attacking us will make us collapse. If anything Bush did not go far enough, did not kill and destroy enough of our enemies to make the consequences very clear.

Reading the accounts of people trying to understand why Hitler went to war with the general support of the German nation, the consensus among historians, diplomats, political leaders, and the like AT THE TIME (1945) was that the failure to march into Berlin in 1918 after WWI made Germans feel that they'd been stabbed in the back AND that there were no real consequences at home for waging war.

The TOTAL devastation of WWII made it clear to Germans generations afterwards that making war in Europe was pure suicide. If you want to understand German pacifism NOW you have to look at the good the total devastation did in 1945 by making it clear to EVERY German how much making wars of conquest cost them.

This is not addressed politically due to PC and multi-culti nonsense; but if you want to deter real-life terrorists (who need support and State sanctuary) you need to put the fear of the US into people like Mullah Omar. If he had been mortally afraid of the US 9/11 would never have happened because Osama would have had a very bad, sudden accident.

Ah, yes. Terrorists read Ace of Spades and then walk away feeling emboldened. If that's the case, then even permitting comments on blogs amounts to treason, because you know how addicted al Qaeda is to blogs.

C'mon, they're driven by psychotic fanatical ideology. They don't care what I say.

And I know that we've been pretty good about trying to stop bullies (with the exception of Latin American Death Squads in the 1980s). That's why I'm disturbed about what we've been doing lately, it tarnishes our moral credibility.

I remember when walking softly and carrying a big stick was the motto. Now we flex our muscles whenever we get the chance and stuck our stick into a tar-baby called Iraq, when we could have been busy working on our borders and getting bin Laden. I know he's not doing much any more, but if we devoted half the resources to getting bin Laden and al Qaeda that we've devoted to stabilizing Iraq, we would look a lot better.

Could you imagine how impressive it would be to catch bin Laden? Do you think Iran would be thumbing their noses at us so blatantly if we weren't tied up in Iraq? Right now, the world ranks the United States lower than China on the scale of trustworthiness. They regard us lower than Communist Freakin' China!!! That is an embarassment. And it has everything to do with hotshot arrogant foreign policy.

I wish you were right, Jim. Because then things would be getting better, rather than worse. But when you look at the statistics, world terror is on the rise.

The comparison to Germany presumes that terrorists are afraid that their actions could cause this or that nation-state to be destabilized. Actually, they thrive under destability. Even right under our noses, in Afghanistan, criminality flourishes. The Israelis have tried for decades to put terrorists off balance, and they suck at it.

It might be cathartic for Israel. It might be good for their politicians and defense contractors. And they might succeed in stopping individuals. But they have not succeeded in changing the dynamic of terrorism itself. If nothing else, they have lost the moral initiative needed to lead the region towards peace. Right now, their best bet is a wall. In the meantime, public opinion has turned against Israel on a wide, wide scale. This is a horrible, horrible historical development. Without our backing, they would cease to exist.

We are headed down the same path.

If the United States paints itself into a similar corner, there isn't a stronger nation that can come to rescue us. We should not allow ourselves to fall victim to the naive belief that violence is the ultimate deterrent. It only works on TV. And if America's resilience in the face of 9/11 can teach us anything... it is that violence, no matter how awful, does not change the hearts and minds of human beings.

Just an observation. Your chief tool of argument is personal attack.

There you would be wrong, you simple minded cretin. My personal attacks are merely my little way of letting you know how much I despise you. Every substantive point you've bothered to raise has been totally shot down, so don't cry to me that you've not had a really good, down to earth conversation with us about how Bush is a corrupt girly man, or that Republicans are crazy religious brainwashed freaks, or that John Bolton is insecure and hiding behind his moustache.

Because that's all you've really brought to this thread. Apart from your appaling use of dead miners to score points, anyway. Oh, yeah, and you think torture is bad. Good for you. What a brave stand to take. OF COURSE TORTURE IS BAD.

You spend a lot of time insulting people and mumbling about straw men, but very little time actually talking about substantial things.

Way to speak truth to kettle there, pot. Do you even know what a "strawman" argument is? I'm guessing you're not smart enough. A strawman argument is when you listen to what your opponent has to say, ignore it, and them dream up a fanciful and easy to defeat strawman in its place. Here are some examples that may seem familiar to you, even if you only have the short term memory of a flatworm:

Conservatives are the ones who keep telling me that America is going to be destroyed every minute. That my family will fall apart if gay people get health insurance. That sex is a one-way ticket to hell. And that rock and roll plays evil messages backwards. That New Orleans was smitten for serving spicy food. Have you seen Ralph Reed? Grover Norquist? Karl Rove? Talk about some hardcore curmudgeons (not that John Kerry and Al Gore are anymore exciting). Bush can't even talk until he starts partying like a Kennedy (and then he sounds like a Stuttering John if he became a televangelist).

That's the problem. A big party of paranoid victims who cry "liberal bias" whenever anybody criticizes them and kick down anyone who has the unfortunate luck of being beneath them.

Give it a few years... get rid of the neocon losers... and maybe the GOP will come back.

I think y'all should lose the suits, go beat some drums and read Iron John, cry about how hard it is to be a man, hug each other, and then find some war hero (or even a TV star) who can lead you to resume the struggle against Big Government all over again. (But at least wait until we pay down the deficit a little and rebuild the military).

In case you think I'm making any of this up... just look at John Bolton... he's an exemplar of this special kind of nutball.

I would clip more from your previous statements, but I think I would wear my CTRL V keys out in the process. Because you lack the ability to actually discuss anything, you have to dream up Republican boogeymen and argue with them. That's why, when cornered, you have to bring up Kenneth Lay. That's why, when cornered, you have to change the subject constantly and try to play yourself as a victim.

So, just an observation? You're a fucking moron.

I, for one, would be more inclined to listen to you. But, you will probably flip out and be all nasty about even this grudging amount of respect, too.

I don't want your respect. The respect of a person like you means nothing to me. I would, however, accept an apology and a disavowal of your bullshit. I would also enjoy not hearing from you again, but barring that you're welcome to keep opening your mouth and ramming your foot in it. It's irritating, but it reminds me why I should probably vote for a scumbag like McCain despite his problems.

You can point out that I am inconsistent for my savage treatment of John Bolton's moustache and his broken marriage.

You're just now noticing that? Great. In addition to your meaningless comments about John Bolton... add... pretty everything else your stupid fat fingers have typed and you'll have yourself nicely covered. The road to enlightenment beings with self-discovery, BigTobacco, and all that time you spend exploring the contents of your briefs doesn't count.

And for this, I am sorry. Maybe it is weak to admit error. I know it doesn't represent me that well. But that's what it is.

Nothing you've written previously represents you well. Realizing that you're a small-minded hypocrite for the way you comfort yourself by smearing your opponents and complaining about the smears is not your problem, it's your only hope!

Terrorists read Ace of Spades and then walk away feeling emboldened.

I knew you'd come back with that lame interpretation, hiding behind the rhetoric instead of the intent. Pathetic. The point being, having failed to foment civil war, the terrorists have only one hope: that we leave before they break. And the dissension they see in America is the only thing that gives that hope any life. You are part of that dissension, and while they may not read your specific blather, it certainly contributes to the overall framework.

This is a responsibility of free speech that none on the left will admit to - that their words have consequences that are clearly evident in the propaganda and violent efforts of the enemy.

I know he's not doing much any more, but if we devoted half the resources to getting bin Laden and al Qaeda that we've devoted to stabilizing Iraq, we would look a lot better.

This is a common specious complaint by the left, which completely disregards the fact that the two most likely places for OBL to be hiding are Pakistan and Iran, neither of which we can enter. Why don't you write the Pakistani government and ask *them* to get off their fannys and find OBL for you? Because right now, that's the only shot we have.

Everything you have written, BigToboggan, has been an absloute lie. From you claiming to be a conservative to Murtha being the GOP's bogeyman.

You are a leftist. Pure, 100% grade A leftist. And Jack Murtha is like a walking talking free advertisement for Republican votes.

All of you, stop fucking around and go turn on the TV.

Very interesting post Ace. One thing I would like to expand on - the "bad guy" victims in horror flicks could be seen as a vehicles or a simple excuse to exercise carnal viciousness on a living being, and I would go on to say that the anti-hero really is superfluous to achieving this goal.

For example most movies without anti-heroes still find ways of subjecting the arch baddy to a gruesome fate, but have to resort to making the bad guy inflict it on himself somehow, usually with an attempted backstab that results in him slipping or being "defensively thrown" into a conveniently placed pit of PCP snorting velociraptors, falling 100 stories down onto a rusty iron rebar, or something along those lines, thereby giving the audience the visceral carnage it desires without besmirching the lilly white morals of the protagonist they identify with in such adoring and hypocritical fashion.

(A bit like loving the wife while screwing the whore - one appeals to the higher morals we try to project, the other appeals to the base need we'd like to pretend isn't there)

Phillip Marlowe and James Bond evil? Have you read the books? You're idea is a little half baked.

Sortelli, lighten up. No need to get so worked up over minor insults and imagined injustices. We are people talking about politics. Politics is dirty and filled with scummy people. Talk about politics is dirty and references scummy people. We are walking through a pasture here, and it is silly to think that we don't get crap on our shoes from time to time. Now, I don't have a problem admitting that I can be a stinker, but I do have a problem listening to someone who refuses to admit that they can be a stinker, when they so obviously are. There's just no honor in being a pollyanna, pointing always to the flaws of others, while obstinately refusing to be wrong, even as you curse and flail and rage against someone that you've trained yourself to hate.

This is why our country is going down the tubes. There is no place for dissent. Someone criticizes our government, they get mobbed by a bunch of well-meaning, but partially-informed, know-it-alls who spend their time absorbing only the messages of their own party and trying to crush those who they declare members of the "evil" party.

We can try to reign our emotions in a little. And we can even talk about things. I know I'm not right even 50% of the time on politics. But I am right about some things. And if your emotions get in the way of having the sort of mature give and take that is necessary in a civil society, well you ought to think about it.

I mean, why all the anger? Why all the rage? I'm not going to try to psychoanalyze, but I will say that it is foolish and misguided and it represents your views very, very, very poorly. If I weren't feeling more charitable, I would think that you were a washed-up bigot whose persecution complex leads him to resent women, people of color, gays, and any of the other imagined enemies of am radioland and parade around in with flag in one hand and a cross in the other to make up for your deeply disturbing worldview.

My experience with conservatives would indicate that you are not all self-righteous, meanspirited simpletons... That you are thoughtful optimistic people, who can think of creative solutions to persistent problems. That you actually care about human suffering. That you don't really walk around like dittoheads and freepers spouting off quasi-mystical truisms about poverty and economics. But you're not giving me much to work with here. As far as I can tell, you are just circling the wagons and shooting spitballs at imagined enemies... hardly a strong position for a movement that revels in its mandate, its political invincibility, and its personal contact with God through televangelists.

Maybe you want to have people walking around thinking that you are a bunch of uptight whackos... But I can't see how that helps your cause any. Approval ratings are way down, a whole gang of Republicans are caught up in the Jack Abramoff fiasco, somebody screwed up the intelligence in the run up to the Iraq War, our President has started spying on Americans, and we are deep in debt. Sorry if I have trouble "believing" in that Republicans are any more virtuous or competent than Democrats. Y'all need to start listening to people like Ron Paul and John McCain, otherwise we'll end up in a rehash of the post-Nixon doldrums, which hurt everybody.

"This is a responsibility of free speech that none on the left will admit to - that their words have consequences that are clearly evident in the propaganda and violent efforts of the enemy."

If this is true, you should take your struggle to Rush Limbaugh. Everyday, Rush Limbaugh highlights the voices of dissent in his program and amplifies them to an absrud degree. If anything would emboldened the terrorists and demoralize the troops, it would be Limbaugh's constant repetition of the most extreme forms of dissent couple with the message that this will make us lose the war. The worst thing is, Limbaugh is actually broadcast over there.

He ought to think about the morality of repeating messages which he believes to be harmful just to scare political points. If he were willing to frame the discussion in a more intelligent manner, as a normal part of having a civilian government, the potential propaganda value would be greatly diminished. But, I think he, and his listeners, approve of propoganda. So, don't expect any changes.

That's a pretty desperate, dishonest argument. But even ignoring all the fallacies and inaccuracies, I'll say this: sure, if the rest of you all would shut up, we'll shut up Rush, even if it would be moot at that point.

BigTobbogan is revealing so much in his comments. He's advising us to silence Limbaugh and move politically towards McCain. For our own good. Interesting.

I have advice for BigTooBeano. Give Cindy Sheehan her own prime-time t.v. talk show. Sean Penn and Jack Murtha should be booked as regular guests.

When the majority of the country is against the war, it's silly to start talking like a blog or a single politician or a grieving mother are going to ruin the war effort.

The support for the war got off to a bad start because it was poorly planned and shoddily justified. The geeks in the White House thought that the public would be too stupid to go against the war once we put the troops into harm's way. They were right for a couple of months. But then their strange attempt to sell the war like some kind of dish soap just petered out. They should have listened to the Pentagon and the CIA instead of building their own little Office of Special Plans and secret intelligence working groups.

Now support just keeps dropping off. That has nothing to do with you or me. It has everything to do with the fact that a bunch "businessmen" thought they could sell the war through marketing. And a bunch of stupid politicians didn't oppose the war when they should have, before it started. And they are left with a dangerous, costly liability on their hands. But because of politics, they can't admit that they are dumber than rocks. People need to start resigning, getting fired, or being replaced. We need to be serious when our leaders fail. That matters more than what the people on the street are saying. We say what we say when we see what they do.

But just pretending like things are better than ever will never fix anything.

Limbaugh is broadcast to the troops because they voted to hear him. So, they can't find him too demoralizing, dumbass.

When the majority of the country is against the war, it's silly to start talking like a blog or a single politician or a grieving mother are going to ruin the war effort.

...and that stands as the final evasion of your personal responsiblity combined with yet another expression of your shallow perspective that means this conversation is at an end.

My personal responsibility is to vote lying politicians out of office, pay my taxes, and take care of my family. Aside from that, I believe that I should be allowed to say whatever I want, especially if saying it is going to help steer us away from foreign policy that can be summed up as "so unbelievably stupid and impulsive that it might scare the terrorists into sanity."

You walk perilously close to the PC curmudgeons that think everything utternance they disagree with is the same thing as violence. This country was founded on dissent. And we have the right to be suspicious of our leaders, especially when they are making apparently bad policy decisions but telling us that civic involvement in the form of criticism and petitioning is irresponsible. It is the most responsible thing a citizen can do, to share their political ideas with other citizens.

To be sure, there are consequences when we speak. But sometimes the consequences of silence in the face of foolishness are even worse. If we keep running blindly down the stupid path to low recruitment, high debt, and diminished moral authority, then we'll really be in trouble.

More than a few of my friends that went to fight in Iraq came back and told me that the whole thing is just a waste of time. When they signed up, they were all gung ho about it. But now they feel quite differently. And they arrived at these conclusions quite on their own. Now maybe my friends are all lowlife redneck losers, and y'all can spit on them like you do to Murtha and McCain and Cleland all the other men you love to hate on, but I'll take their word over yours any day of the week.

Why is it that so many Iraq War vets are running as Democrats? Are they just low class traitorous scumbag losers? Or are they just dissatisfied with the current leadership of the ruling party?

This country was founded on dissent.

You really are warped.