Bad News Plummeting!

I had no idea that the More Cowbell image had an audio link. That's so fucking awesome!

Man, you have got to use that on your radio show (maybe with a decency edit toward the end there).

New Headlines at NYT:

The Booming Economy: Will Parking Spaces at Companies Be Harder to Find?

Increase in Commuting Workforce Presents Larger Target to Terrorists

Employment Offices Nationwide to Cut Jobs (subtitle: "When a Rising Tide Doesn't Lift All Boats")

eh, I'm tired today.

Ace,

Cowbell.

Sweet.

Really.

Really, really.

Just sayin'.

Just more overall tax revenue which enables tax cuts for the rich.

NYT Headline (I feel certain is comin):

Fewer Unemployed Figures Raise Serious Concerns For the Future

Scientests Note Negative Effect on Planets Trees as Employers Use Up Paper Supplies Cutting Checks, Mints Printing Dollars - Future Supply of Earth Oxygen At Risk

... not to mention rock 'n roller cola wars ...

You telling me you didn't vote Bernie for Public Advocate?

Manhattan elitist Yuppie swine!

That übergeek MacStansbury who also writes at my site has a whole shitload of Cowbell stuff here and here (at his own site).

Jobs are not necessarily jobs. I'm curious about the metrics underneath the overall 220K number. What kind of jobs, with what kind of salary/benefits? If the economy is generating good, quality jobs with adequate salaries and benefits in business sectors that will grow and provide increased opportunities for workers that is one thing. However, if the economy is generating predominately minimum wage dead-end positions with low ceilings on advancement and salary opportunities, that is another.

The bias on my perspective is my view into the high tech industry through many friends and business acquaintances. All of the very large high tech firms seem to be contracting in the US in terms of good quality jobs (engineering, management, technicians, accountancy, etc.) while expanding in China and India.

Construction firms are hiring, but are low-ceiling jobs with decent entry level salaries and that industry is very cyclical.

The 'Wal-Mart' retail service sector is expanding of course, but again, not with jobs that create a strong and robust middle-middle, and upper-middle class that is the backbone of the economy.

In short - from my perspective which may well be off - I see an economy that is generating lower-level jobs and is tending toward lower average salaries nation wide over time.

Can someone provide data or pointers to data that address the 'quality' of jobs being created and can compare that to historical measurements and hopefully provide analysis on what it all means?

F15C, do you know a lot of people with college degrees who are flipping burgers?

This 'wrong types of jobs' nonsense has been a mantra for some people even as all the other economic indicators put the lie to it.

IOW, Yes, in fact, jobs really ARE jobs.

Geez lauraw back off a bit. I didn't say your baby was ugly or anything, I just stated my perspective and asked what I thought was a reasonable question. I'm not saying that jobs are not being added, I'm *asking* about the relative quality of those jobs. That quality factor is a very strong indicator of future standard of living in our country.

And yes, I do know college degreed people (again in the high tech industry and telecom industry) that are working at Home Depot, Wal-Mart, and in one case Jack-In-The-Box, because they can no longer find work as network engineers/managers, IT engineers/managers, telecom technicians/engineers. As I stated, I am very close to the high tech industry and have a fairly good perspecitve on engineering and IT related jobs in that sector.

You want a specific? How about Hewlett Packard? HP has laid off thousands of engineers/IT/accounting/HR people over the last few years and at the same time hired thousands more in India and China. I'm told by four of my HP friends that only half of the American layoffs have been completed. Many layoffs - even large ones - are rarely publicized in the high tech industry anymore, but that does not mean they are not happening.

I note that you provided no data whatsoever in your, uh, reply to back up what you 'said'.

Show me the data. For example, show me the data that shows the growth in payrolls for the non-retail, non-farming sectors of the economy.

(PS: Ace, I absolutely love your blog, and I absolutely hate the 'Preview Comment' feature...)

F15C, I'm sorry, I was at work and you seemed to be tapping a meme that has been overplayed for years.

As far as the types of jobs created, the very article linked from this post said:

November's employment gains were pretty broad based. Construction jobs went up, partly reflecting hurricane rebuilding and cleanup. Retail, leisure and hospitality, education and health services, financial activities and even manufacturing were among those boosting jobs.

Technically, outsourcing can be considered a form of innovation, freeing labor for other pursuits.
Other pursuits like...like making me a nice turkey sandwich at Subway, for instance.

These kinds of niche displacements have been going on for decades, and people do move past them and into other opportunities.
At one time, people were in a panic because machines were replacing human beings on assembly lines.
Yes, people lost their jobs to machines. What happened to those people (who undoubtedly had a smaller skill set than your friends)? Did they starve, wither and blow away?

I can search the reference section at the library for years, yet will never see an historical reference to the Great Assembly-line Workers Famine.

Speaking of libraries....my sister is a librarian.

Woe to her this internet-thingy that is causing the library to creep toward the precipice of obsolescence!

When they close the library, I'll have to take her in, of course, and her family too. Times will be tough.

But I couldn't ever expect her to take the setback, work a crappy job for a while, then find another opportunity has opened up, and expect her to change her skill set to adapt to the new situation.

Your friends are most certainly fine people, and I weep for their stunted prospects and dour, blackened future, forever robbed of their American Dream by cackling, cigar-chewing fatcats.

Its not like I ever changed careers. Or went to college for something that I never actually did for a living, then had to switch gears...twice. Nope. That never happens. That would be a calamity.

That may have sounded a little harsh, too. Oopsie.

lauraw - no offense taken - thanks.

Probably because I live in California, and I'm heavily immersed in the high tech area with large corporations (as per my stated bias above) I don't have as broad a perspective as I'd should or as I'd like.

In thinking about it, I'm concerned (possibly in error) that we are giving our leadership in technology away. It is not just in the white and blue collar jobs going to India and China, but the capital investment by American companies in that region. Billions of dollars to build R&D facilities, buy equipment, furniture, and other items that is not going into American R&D infrastructure.

HP in my area is selling part or all of their site that used to house 7200 good jobs and is now less than 3200 and will continue to decline as more layoffs occur.

What is the value to America and Americans when an American company employs more people offshore than in America?

The loss of 4000 jobs in our town of 90,000 is painful, though we are a fairly upscale community and a desireable place to live.

Just last night at a community sports dinner, an acquaintance told me he (and many others) were just laid off from HP. He holds a big-school MBA and was senior program level accountant. His job and the others did not disappear - they went offshore.

The loss of 4000 well paying jobs plus in our city of 90,000 is significant - and that is from HP alone. NEC has laid off unspecified numbers, and even Intel which hires/fires in spurts is not making up the differnence and neither is small business. Think too of all the peripheral businesses that serviced those employees and survived on their spending - I'm sure they will have requisite negative impacts to their businesses and people as well.

I may be wrong, but I don't think wages are keeping up with inflation in America. Though inflation is fairly low, the trend is bad.

It seems that we have 'x' number of Wal-marts being built per day, but less than zero high technology business expansions being built. Skewed though it may be, it is some kind of indication of what is going on.

My point is that if we are seeing the same thing happening to high-technology R&D functions that happened to manufacturing functions what does that portend for America's leadership in the world economy?

If we give away our leadership (I'm talking pragmatic leadership - leadership that primarily benefits Americans as wage/salary earners, consumers, and investors) in high technology, then what are we going to lead? We are - no question - offshoring our R&D and engineering capabilities to India and China. I fully expect those countries to lead the world (as do they) within ten years to the detriment of the US.

I suggest reading a bit on Ricardo's Iron Law of Wages.

Made a new post just for you on top, toots.

Yeah, well, the 'jobs created' report doesn't include the 'jobs lost' report, and I feel sure that one must have ALL information at hand to formulate a sound opinion. Also, I believe I heard that jobless claims were up last month, despite predictions to the contrary. I don't give a good GD what anybody says, the economy in MY America sucks!

Well, I hope everything is nice and lousy in "your" America so you can keep on being miserable with good reason.

I am a victim.

It is still George Bush's fault.

Because I am a victim. A helpless, hopeless, victim.

America sucks.

ALL Americans are victims of this administration's policies of greed and deception; just how much we will allow ourselves to be raped and pillaged remains to be seen. We are not powerless, nor helpless - only stunned and disbelieving. Will we awaken in time to prevent the demise of our rights and our fortunes and guarantee the freedoms we have enjoyed to generations to come?

The very last thing I am is hopeless.

The very last thing I am is hopeless.

The very first thing you are is clueless.

Boy, those comment spammers are just getting more and more technologically advanced, aren't they? You'd almost thing southern_belle was a real person, but whoever wrote that code threw a few too many catchphrases into the mix.

Oh, I'm real. On that you can depend. ;-)

And I have clues. LOTS and LOTS of clues. Also lots of facts. 'Clueless' is what happens when you just swallow and don't question.

I don't give a good GD what anybody says, the economy in MY America sucks!

This suggests that serious discussion of the economy and employment situation is useless, and that your cache of 'facts' will consist of cherry-picked negative economic indicators. But in case you're more open-minded than you indicate, I suggest you go to the Bureau of Labor Statistics site and look at the historical data. You'll find that pretty much *all* the national employment indicators are on a general upward trend, and have been for 1 - 3 years.

Oh, did I say "facts?" What I meant was...uh...faxes. Yeah, faxes.

Like the ones I got from the DNC this morning that told me the economy is TERRIBLE.

I am visiting the Bureau of Labor Statistics site now, and when I looked under the heading of 'Access to historical data for the "A" tables of the Employment Situation News Release', I find that it was updated FEBRUARY 2003. 'Access to historical data for the "B" tables
of the Employment Situation News Release' reveals that it was updated JUNE 2003. Do you have an exact link you could post that illustrates your claim of 'upward trending'? When I attempted to retrieve CURRENT statistics from the BLS, I was rewarded with NOT ONE series report.

I would appreciate a link to the information you say is there, so that I may reach your level of knowledge concerning the Department of Labor statistics.

In addition, geoff, I don't need a government office to cherry pick positive economic indicators when I can look around my small town in the South and see the results of this administration's policies concerning trade and employment.

Richard Nixon, when president, once said he believed there was a global overpopulation problem because everywhere he went, there were large groups of people.

You're looking at a tree, when the forest tells the whole story.

New jobs created. Took a major dip in 2001 and 2003, but has been climbing for two years now.

National unemployment rate. Spiked in 2001 and again in 2003, has fallen since.

Sorry, is that too much "cherry picking" for you? Would you rather I looked down my street?

The forest.

But wait...there's a guy walking down the street, in the middle of a workday. He must be out of a job.

DEPRESSION ALERT!!!

southern_belle:

I'm pleased to see that you're trying to look at the data. Go here and then click on the little green dinosaurs in the "Latest Numbers" panel on the right.

As far as the economic microcosm of your town goes, it's a shame, but it doesn't necessarily reflect the truth for the nation as a whole. As conservatives, we are generally *more* concerned about the economy and employment than our liberal counterparts, and we're certainly not satisfied that we're out of the woods yet. But in the face of the unrelenting Bush-bashing and economic pessimism by the MSM and people like you, we do enjoy news that dispels the gloom.

The government tells us that we must rely on the facts 'on the ground', so I will continue to choose my own experience - and the experiences of the former employees of TWELVE factories in my hometown which have now relocated their manufacturing plants outside the United States - over any government-sponsored "facts" about unemployment. Have you considered all the people who are unemployed and NOT eligible to draw compensation? Do you recall the 13 week extension that was NOT granted last year and consequently skewed the numbers of unemployed? Remember, they get their facts ONLY from the number of people claiming unemployment.

I am not trying to be disagreeable. I don't even know what a 'comment spammer' IS. I would merely like to have acknowledged the real, true FACT that the economy is not great for many. Why is it so hard to admit that?

The government tells us that we must rely on the facts 'on the ground', so I will continue to choose my own experience - and the experiences of the former employees of TWELVE factories in my hometown which have now relocated their manufacturing plants outside the United States - over any government-sponsored "facts" about unemployment. Have you considered all the people who are unemployed and NOT eligible to draw compensation? Do you recall the 13 week extension that was NOT granted last year and consequently skewed the numbers of unemployed? Remember, they get their facts ONLY from the number of people claiming unemployment benefits.

I am not trying to be disagreeable. I don't even know what a 'comment spammer' IS. I would merely like to have acknowledged the real, true FACT that the economy is not great for many. Why is it so hard to admit that?

We have another useful idiot among us?
Hello, Southern Belle.

Some advice for you, SB: Instead of scouring the Internet and spreading the Truth, I suggest you find a real job and try to imporve your local community.

Community. It's the new thing.

Sorry about the double post.

Geoff, I am looking at the information you provided now. It seems to me to indicate that employment overall is down as of November by 52,000, and unemployment is up as of November by 149,000 claims. Am I interpreting this correctly?

Am I interpreting this correctly?

Pretty much, but you have to be careful, since there are a lot of factors that can affect your interpretation. You also want to look at longer-term trends, rather than drawing conclusions from month-to-month data.

Many of the graphs they have are plotted as change from month-to-month. It's a pretty useless format. In these cases you should click on "More Formatting Options" and then select 'Original Data Value' from the check boxes (deselect the crappy '1 Month Net Value' box). Then click the 'Retrieve Data' button and you'll really see the trends.

I find this data retrieval process tedious and confusing, most probably by design. As you said yourself, it's a pretty useless format. Wouldn't a government office sincerely and genuinely trying to present the facts to the public be more forthcoming? Isn't there a simple way of presenting facts about employment/unemployment that everyone can understand? Just like everything else complicit with this corrupt administration, it is standing behind a pile of sh*t and calling it chocolate cake.

Wouldn't a government office sincerely and genuinely trying to present the facts to the public be more forthcoming?

Actually I find that the harder you dig, the better the data looks. If anybody is covering up anything, it's the extent of the recovery. I suspect that, like the State Dept. and the CIA, the lifetime employees in the BLS have no love for the current administration.

Sorry you're having trouble with the interface. If you have any specific questions, let me know.

I trust no arm of this government, and anyone who does has blinded themselves to the painful truth. We the people are but pawns to the agendas of the very rich and powerful. Your comments are telling: "As conservatives, we are generally *more* concerned about the economy and employment than our liberal counterparts, and we're certainly not satisfied that we're out of the woods yet. But in the face of the unrelenting Bush-bashing and economic pessimism by the MSM and people like you, we do enjoy news that dispels the gloom." To me this says 1) that you are probably interested in the recovery of our economy because of personal gains rather than concern about your fellow Americans who may be (and are) suffering through down times, and 2) that you prefer to relegate so-called "bush-bashing" to the realm of mere pessimism, and you do this to avoid the entire truth of the matter, i.e. 'dispelling the gloom'. I submit to you that there is a time for ACKNOWLEDGING the gloom that permeates some lives OTHER THAN YOUR OWN. What is so hard about acknowledging the WHOLE TRUTH?

To me this says . . .

Neither fair nor accurate. I've tried to be polite, respectful, and helpful, and in return I'm told that my motivations are driven by personal avarice and insensitivity to my fellow man. That you could derive your two 'conclusions' from my statements means that I have completely wasted my time. When next we chat I won't be so cordial.

......I said PROBABLY. But fine, I don't require you to be cordial. In fact, it has been my experience that conservatives (most of whom claim to be Christian) have the nastiest, most easily offended attitudes, and that hate and avarice seems to rest just beneath their seemingly pleasant exteriors. If I was wrong about that aspect of your character, I apologize.....whether you accept it or not. I can't think that you would possibly be offended that I called you on your rose-colored glasses concerning the 'bush-bashing'....you seem so intelligent, you must understand that pretty much everyone is in on it now: this administration has made a complete mess of the goodwill and high ground this country once enjoyed, not to mention the deceptions that led us into a war of aggression and has cost so many lives, and trade policies that threaten the very fabric of a strong American economy....all this isn't any kind of secret, and while I agree that optimism is important, realism beats optimism in my book every time!

You see, I only wandered in here because I was searching for some stories about job stats around the country. :-) I've already done the whole message board back and forth arguing thing a couple of years ago, and I've matured a bit since then. I don't hate you for your beliefs, geoff. Whoever you are, I love you and I hope you wake up in time.

I submit to you that there is a time for ACKNOWLEDGING the gloom that permeates some lives OTHER THAN YOUR OWN. What is so hard about acknowledging the WHOLE TRUTH?

Unlike geoff, who's just a nicer guy, I haven't bothered with either polite or respectful. I have, however, tried to be helpful in pointing out where you could find data on the economy.

It seems, however, that you care less about real statistics than about your own sense of how your local economy is doing. This may be because you are more emotionally attached to your local area, but qualitative data so heavily based on personal emotion is suspect.

Quite frankly, you cannot and should not attempt to make statements on the policies of a particular administration based on the economy of one small region. Regional and local economies are more subject to state and local initatives than federal - taxation, regulation and zoning are the three governmental actions that can most affect business in a region or town.

So really, you should be taking steps to contact your city and state government. The feds can only do so much - in your case, all politics really is local.

I suspect, though, that I've wasted my time writing this, because you seem uninterested in the reality of economic development and more interested in venting your spleen about the perceived crimes against your economy of the Bush administration.

In fact, it has been my experience that conservatives (most of whom claim to be Christian) have the nastiest, most easily offended attitudes, and that hate and avarice seems to rest just beneath their seemingly pleasant exteriors

Only an exceedingly nasty and hateful person is capable of writing such tripe. I'll no longer waste my time with you.

you left out embittered.

yeah, that's me, all hate and avarice. mostly because I'm not sympathetic to self-inflicted victims.

hey, sb, question for you about that sneaky old gummint and their numbers. If it's in their self-interest to publish lies that make them look good, why weren't they publishing those lies 3 years ago when things were bad? Same administration. Their tax cuts had been in effect for a year. How come? Why are they trustworthy then, and not now?

If you want to learn something about the economy, read Donald Luskin's site. But if you just want to have circular arguments while complaining that you got laid off again from the mill, hang around here cause we love that shit.

Southern Dumbbelle left out the part where s/he used to be a Republican...until that Bush took office.

also left out the part where the economic improvements are even admitted to by the NY Times.

but Pinch has always been George's bitch.

always

You guys are sooooo predictable! ;-)

Love you all. See you around the Web.

Dave:

Let me explain. Things were bad and they admitted it. Things are still bad, but there has been loads of spin and manipulation and now they are contrived to look better. Nothing beats a good come-back story, eh? However, the facts do not support the deception. The FACTS, whether you like it or not, derive from REAL experiences, not numbers. Mine is a real experience. So is that of the many lay-offs from companies closing and/or moving overseas.

I don't understand your reference to "self-inflicted victims".

good luck with that life there. it's scarier than debates in a comment thread.

I have to get back to my hating and greed plans now. Christmas is almost here.

God love John Murtha! He just made the point on tv that we are supposed to go to war in the interests of NATIONAL SECURITY, not to force our brand of democracy on other people!! What a courageous and wonderful old man. Of course, CNN cut him off at that exact moment to go to some breaking news update....

Merry Christmas, everyone.

What a bitter belle
Scarlett O'Hara take note
And kick this girl's ass

anonymous, thanks ever so for the explanation. anectodal evidence certainly trumps observable and measurable trends. I'm going to call the Bureau of Labor Statistics and tell em they can cut the budget big time next year, cause an anonymous poster said he's in the shitter.

So what's your story, anonymous poster? Prepared your whole life for a career that has moved overseas? Perhaps a skilled laborer, and demand for your sub assemblies has been less than terrific? Are you ill? Injured? Under-educated?

oh, sorry, I forgot to answer your question about self-inflicted victims. people who are capable of doing something about their situation but do not because of self-imposed constraints, like "oh no, they got programmers in India. whatever will I do"? or "I've lived here all my life and by God I deserve a job right the hell here".

that kind of stuff

Dave, don't bother.

IT'S ALL BUSH'S FAULT!

Smile, nod and slowly back away...

Pile on, boys. ;-) With every nasty, mean-spirited comment, you prove my assertions. So tell me: where do you all go to church??

Piss off, troll.

Ah. The inoperable brain tumor speaks. Tell me, Lee. Where exactly did you find Jesus?

Bigot.

Oh, that WAS clever, Lee. My, how can I stand up to that brilliant repartee?

You must feel much better to be rid of all that hate. Surely you will share your conversion story with all of us. Don't you want to witness?

How's life in the afterworld? ;-) Kinda hot down there?

I'm sorry, you're misunderstanding my purpose here.

I'm not interested in your haughty, self-righteous bullshit opinions about religion. Maybe insulting those damned "Christers" makes you feel better about yourself, maybe not. Who really gives a flying you-know-what?

I don't hate you as much as you seem to hate conservatives (especially if they're crazy Jesus freaks, right?) But I don't especially like you, either.

To be honest, I have no feelings about you whatsoever. I'm just bored and you're kind of entertaining. Not your opinions, mind you, but your affected sense of superiority - it amuses me.

How's life in the afterworld? ;-) Kinda hot down there?

Oooohhh....really got me with that one.

ZING!

Yes, it's hot, and I'm tired of being sodomized by Satan.

Happy?

Sorry, forgot to add the annoying 'smiley' that says "oh, I'm such a nice person and don't mean a word of it."

Maybe it's because I'm not 13.

I am a practicing Baptist, Lee-boy. And I'm sick of phony baloney "Christians" giving the real thing a bad name. If you're tired of being sodomized by Satan, maybe you should examine the reasons he keeps sticking it to you. Perhaps by your associations he believes you to be eager for his advances.

p.s. my sense of superiority isn't affected in YOUR case. ;-)

You're making bad assumptions about the people on this site.

Conservative does not equal religious.

You'd think all of the toilet humor here would have clued you in on that.

Maybe it's hard to see from your lofty perch.

Yeah, maybe you're right about this site. Maybe I'm just nursing a general grudge at the hijacking of real Christian love by 'angels of light' and am taking it out on you guys. Maybe I'm angry about a lot of things happening in my country.

My perch isn't so lofty. Actually, I'm scared of heights.

So it's your idea of 'real Christian love' to ask someone how their alter ego likes the afterlife, call people 'nasty and mean spirited' and make general assumptions about the religious faith of strangers then mock it?

Nice.

"So it's your idea of 'real Christian love' to ask someone how their alter ego likes the afterlife, call people 'nasty and mean spirited' and make general assumptions about the religious faith of strangers then mock it?"

No, it isn't. That's my base human nature coming through because of frustration and anger. But ya'll WERE being nasty and mean-spirited - there's nothing wrong with telling the truth.

I think Livia Soprano said it best.

"Oh poor you."

You're on a discussion board full of people who like politics and aren't afraid of a little rough and tumble in our discussions.

Nothing makes the blood flow like a little nasty mean-spirited discussion between friends.

You'll forgive me my humanity, then. :-)

I was just glad to see you getting the hang of how we debate here.

You'll forgive me my humanity, then. :-)

not me I still hate you

hate
hate
hate

Thanks, Lee. You're not so bad for a dead republican strategist after all.

Dave, maybe your hate would subside if you would move out of Texas. I think there's something in the air/water/oil there.

Maybe so, but my avarice is just a personal gift.

greed
greed
greed

Gordon Gekko is my hero.

Southern Bille, how do you feel about homosexuality? It's a popular topic here at AoS, and I was wondering if I could chalk you up as either Pro or Con on homosexuality?

Tough question, Southern Bells?
I'm just curious how the practicing Baptists-non phony-baloney Christians feel about homosexuality.

No, not a tough question. I try to love as Jesus does, and Jesus loves everyone. It is not my place to pass judgment on a person's choice about their sexuality. It doesn't affect me, as far as I can tell. I have gay friends. I even have republican friends, so obviously I don't discriminate in the giving of my affections.

Careful, Dave. Remember what Master Yoda says about hate.

What good does being for or against homosexuality do? It's not as though what we think of another person's sexuality matters, really.

By the way, I'm not a practicing Baptist. More of a recovering one.

Nice try, Southern Balles, but you didn't answer the question. I'll speak slower thise time:

As a practicing Baptist, a real Christian, what is your position on homosexuality? I didn't ask if you liked gay people.

In other words, do you, Southern Belle, believe that homosexuality is a sin?

This shoul be an easy question for a real Christian. Either you do, or you don't. The Christians believe judging souls is God's work, not man's. But Christians are free to judge the un-Godly actions of others.

You brought up the hypocrisy of Christianity. It's time to put up or shut up.
Answer the question, please.

I like my hate.

Keeps me warm.

Hm. Does a Red Dawn quote trump a Star Wars reference?

GEEK OFF!

Red Dawn tends to trump most quotes, as they are not hippy dippy flobber gobber.

Conan tends to trump Red Dawn though...

Conan? Hmm. Does sorta go with that hate riff.

Vat is best in life? To crush yuhr enemies. To see dem driffen before you. And to hear de lamentations of dey women...

actually I think Dr. Strangelove quotes should trump Conan, but I don't think that's a popular position.

Timmy, I don't think the mark of a real Christian is whether they are pro or con on homosexuality.

That wasn't the point, Slu.

Southern Belle came in here showing off his/her knowledge of economics. But when challenged, s/he did the typical lefitist/liberal maneuver -- point fingers of accusation and take shots at Christians and Republicans.

Southern Belle is full of shit. S/he travels from blog to blog to be a general pain in the ass to people s/he hates. Fuck him/her.

Ah, just makin' sure.

Someone's got to keep us haters from, er, hating so much.

Hey, people. Ya'll are mostly ok, but I think Timmy's in the well. Somebody shine a light down there, eh? :-)

I can answer the question. Yes. I do believe it is a sin. As is cheating, adultery, theft, murder, etc., etc. But where the Christian part comes in is here: I cannot withhold my love and concern from someone BECAUSE he/she is sinning. In fact, it is to those people that we as true Christians are called. Not to judge. Not to preach. Simply to witness with our lives about the love of God. Simply to apply God's love to everyone, as instructed.

Here's what I don't understand about homosexuality. Why is it harped on as somehow being a worse sin than others? I'm not trying to pick on anyone in particular, but it seems to me that an inordinate amount of time, energy and outrage is spent by Christians on this one sin.

I mean, when was the last time you saw Christians organize a petition drive or a march against gluttony?

And yes, sometimes I fail in doing that. I fail sometimes because I am subject to the same fraility of human nature as we all are, and THAT is why I cannot judge.

@ Slublog

Exactly! It is just one failing among so many! What makes anyone think they can call the kettle black? Even the Bible doesn't support that.

I think we're called to point out sin, but if I understand the Gospels correctly, it's the Holy Spirit that makes people aware of their sins and leads them to a relationship with Christ.

I believe that we are called to love one another and to do good and to care for those who can't care for themselves, and through compassion mixed with determination, try to help raise others up when possible. I'm not a 'do-gooder', though. Human nature in all it's weaknesses is what we struggle with collectively, and I think each and everyone WHO IS ABLE should take responsibility for themselves. ( However, in matters of taxation, my opinion varies somewhat.)

I believe that we are called to love one another and to do good and to care for those who can't care for themselves, and through compassion mixed with determination, try to help raise others up when possible. I'm not a 'do-gooder', though. Human nature in all it's weaknesses is what we struggle with collectively, and I think each and everyone WHO IS ABLE should take responsibility for themselves. ( However, in matters of taxation, my opinion varies somewhat.)

Here's what I don't understand about homosexuality. Why is it harped on as somehow being a worse sin than others? I'm not trying to pick on anyone in particular,

That was precisely what was wrong about Jerry Falwell's and Pat Robertsons post-9/11 statements, focusing on on sin.

I expect preachers to know we are explicitely counseled against that in the NT.

/backtostupiddave

I'm a hata! I'm a playa!

er, meant 'on one sin', not 'on on'

What is 'the NT', funny Dave?

I'm not dave, but'New Testament,' I think.

I'm just wondering what a 'playa' is.

I have noticed that homosexuality is not specifically mentioned in the Ten Commandments.

I have noticed that homosexuality is not specifically mentioned in the Ten Commandments.

Sure it is:

Though shalt not covet thy neighbor's 'goods.'

not in the 10, but it's all over Mosaic law.

What is 'the NT', funny Dave?

Moby alert. I'm Jewish and even I know what "NT" stood for. And Dave is correct about Moses not liking the gay men. Women? Moses didn't say anything about lesbians. Isn't that strange? Damned patriarchy.

First, I'd like to commend Southern Belle for answering the question straightforwardly. You have earned credibility. As a sign of respect, I have spelled your name correctly.

To answer Slu's question as to why Christians are so adamant about curbing the sin of homosexuality, I believe it is because the ramifications that stem from the gay agenda and homosexual acts are far more reaching than, say, gluttony. To wit: AIDS; re-definition of marriage; public school teachers introducing the gay lifestyle to children without parental permission; and the overall sex-ifying society under the guise of freeing everyone from the shackles of puritanical repression.

Thank you, Timmy.