Yeah. If a sectarian war does happen (which is very unlikely), I'd point at events like the Ashura day bombing as setting the stage. It seems pretty obvious where the source of the problems in Iraq is.

Nonetheless, I'm sure abuses are occurring (it's a third world country), and need to be addressed immediately before they get entrenched. Good for the Iraqis for looking into this.

"Yeah. If a sectarian war does happen (which is very unlikely), I'd point at events like the Ashura day bombing as setting the stage."

I'd go back to the time the Sunni killed Mohamed's brother or son or whatever.
Let it start.
We'll get this crap settled once and for all.

For about two years I've watched the goalposts move. Still, I could get almost any pro-war person to agree that a civil war in Iraq would have to qualify as a failure from the US POV.

I expect that goalpost to be moved any minute now, if it isn't already.

And what is it with conservatives and moral relativism? Now it seems Iraqis torturing their own people is okay -- as long as its Sunnis being tortured.

Anyone notice that the first deadline regarding Phase II of Roberts' intel probe came and went -- and nothing happened? No?

Didn't think so.

If a turd falls out of a tree in the woods with no one around, does it make a sound?

Still, I could get almost any pro-war person to agree that a civil war in Iraq would have to qualify as a failure from the US POV.

...and the reasons you are so keen to indudce this "failure" are?

I'll take a crack at it, tubino.

Iraq's regime, for decades, had been training as many professional torturers as it could. Read "The Republic of Fear" for a sober - despite the title - analysis of this process.

You can't expect a society so ridden with the techniques of cruelty to move into human rights-oriented democracy overnight, or even in a few years. Look at West Africa ... war and dicatorship do lasting damage to society.

This is bad news, but it shouldn't be completely unexpected, and it shouldn't be allowed to make the perfect the enemy of the good.

That little "boo hoo" in Ace's post is - sorry, oh great one - gross and out of line. It is not okay for Iraq's government, directly or through militia proxies, to torture its prisoners of whatever sect. But it would be irresponsible to spin this as proof positive that Iraq's new government is as bad as, or even comparable to, its previous one.

Yes, I know. Halliburton. 8.8 billion. Aluminum tubes. Did I miss anything?

It's an old adage, but in a civil war, you have to pick a side or stay out of it.

We're in it, and we sure as hell won't be siding with the Sunni Arabs against the Shia and the Sunni Kurds.

You have nothing to fear but fear itself... and 3/4 of the rest of the country.

Yeah, the Sunnis fear that the Shia will do to them what they've done to the Shia for oh-so-long...
How about this, Tubby, not only did we stop the Sunni torture/genocide, but when we find out that some Shia (the rather low-end of the Shia, btw) are doing same, we stop them too.
Not right for anyone, no excuses.

Let's be careful to separate the torture. Torturing prisoners for info is a-okay.
The other kind of torture, the beating, whipping, and killing for religious differences and the fun of it is not okay.

Don't lump the tortures into one pile, UJ.

Moving goalposts?

Human rights abuses are on the decline. Media freedom is on the rise. Democracy is happening now, something the left said couldn't be done. Our goal has been consistent from the beginning. We want Iraq to be a stable liberal democracy, capable of defneding itself. We're not there yet, but we're getting there quickly. Those goalposts are exactly where they were when this started.

Tubino could have picked at Ace for not being careful to condemn human rights abuses. Instead, it's more leftist talking points. I didn't bother responsing to Tubino, because he hasn't shown himself to be an honest debater. I guess I'm responding now, but I'm really just trying to say this to Knemon and friends. They might find it interesting. Tubino is perfectly smart enough to understand my post, but he is unwilling to, because he is a liar.

I love the fact that, in a post about chutzpah, a leftist shows up here accusing the right of moving goalposts on Iraq. Now that is comedy.

Hi, I'm Tubino's twin brother, Fubino.
My brother has always had a problem telling the truth.

When he was a boy, our mother lost him while shopping for shoes. We found little Tooby a few hours later in the women's undergarment department.

He has never been the same since, nor has he ever forgiven our poor mother for losing him in that big department store in Toronto.

Since then, Tubino has resorted to a life of self-hatred. He habitually wears womens underwear and constantly lies to make friends.

Will you please help my brother?

Sincerely,
Fubino

When I wear women's underwear, I feel like a viking.

Bart:
Let's be careful to separate the torture.

I agree with you that there's a difference. The left wants to blur the distinction and draw ridiculous moral equivalencies. At the same time, I'm opposed to all of it.

Here's a simple way to test your emotional maturity:

Can you resist an easy bitch-slapping of Tubino?

Apparently not, Michael.

Merry Fitzmas, everyone!

Imagine a world where Clinton had to invade the Balkans, pacify the Croats, Slovenes, Bosnians, and Serbs with the requirement that Yugoslavia must be kept as a unitary state for "regional security."

Does anyone here think we wouldn't still be occupying and fighting in this case?

This is essentially what was done in Iraq.

A civil war was thrown up as a worst case scenario before the war, but actually, it might not be. You'd have achieved a lot of your goals, and the rump states might even become close allies on the US for security guarantees.

"...and the reasons you are so keen to indudce this "failure" are?"

I was never keen to do any such thing. I simply noticed the moving justifications, the moving goalposts/objectives. So starting soon after the invasion, I regularly asked some pro-war buddies (I get along with a lot of folks in real life) what would constitute failure. The only point of regular consensus was that civil war would constitute a failure.

Turning Iraq into a breeding ground for int'l terrorism was usually good for second place.

Then I come across a post in which sectarian/civil war is not only not feared, but apparently welcomed for the bloody revenge of bloodshed and possible genocide and ethnic cleansing it would bring -- because the Sunnis (all of them?) deserve it. Yeah, I have a problem with that.

"Those goalposts are exactly where they were when this started."

When the invasion occurred, I don't recall anyone saying that a sectarian war would be a welcome outcome. Citation?

Knemon: agreed. What most bothered me about the post was the assumption that "Sunnis" being bothered about the possibility of sectarian war = Ba'athist henchmen fearing retribution.

But not all Sunnis were complicit in the oppression, and not all are involved in the insurgency.

And of course, if all you can say is that the US is still better than Saddam.... is that really good enough?

"How about this, Tubby, not only did we stop the Sunni torture/genocide, but when we find out that some Shia (the rather low-end of the Shia, btw) are doing same, we stop them too.
Not right for anyone, no excuses."

Sure. I don't think it's right for anyone. But I don't believe the US has taken anywhere near sufficient steps to stop US abuse of prisoners (Bush's only veto might be to reject prohibition of torture???), and it has lost the moral voice on the topic.

Maybe the Iraqi govt will do a better job.

Oh, and I *like* women's underwear. You got a problem with that? (Incredible how much energy some will expend to dodge a topic.)

Program on the emergence of civilization.

"14 species of large animals capable of domesitcation in the history of mankind.
13 from Europe, Asia and northern Africa.
None from the sub-Saharan African continent. "
Favor.
And disfavor.

They point out Africans’ failed attempts to domesticate the elephant and zebra, the latter being an animal they illustrate that had utmost importance for it's applicability in transformation from a hunting/gathering to agrarian-based civilization.

The roots of racism are not of this earth.

Austrailia, aboriginals:::No domesticable animals.

The North American continent had none. Now 99% of that population is gone.

AIDS in Africa.

Organizational Heirarchy
Heirarchical order, from top to bottom:

1. MUCK - perhaps have experienced multiple universal contractions (have seen multiple big bangs), creator of the artificial intelligence humans ignorantly refer to as "god"
2. Perhaps some mid-level alien management
3. Evil/disfavored aliens - runs day-to-day operations here and perhaps elsewhere

Terrestrial management:

4. Chinese/egyptians - this may be separated into the eastern and western worlds
5. Romans - they answer to the egyptians
6. Mafia - the real-world 20th century interface that constantly turns over generationally so as to reinforce the widely-held notion of mortality
7. Jews, corporation, women, politician - Evidence exisits to suggest mafia management over all these groups.

Movies foreshadowing catastrophy
1985 James Bond View to a Kill 1989 San Francisco Loma Prieta earthquake.

Many Muslims are being used like the Germans and Japanese of WWII::being used to hurt others and envoke condemnation upon their people.

They can affect the weather and Hurricane Katrina was accomplished for many reasons and involves many interests, as anything this historical is::
1. Take heat off Sheenhan/Iraq, protecting profitable war machine/private war contracts
2. Gentrification. New Orleans median home price of $84k is among the lowest in major American cities, certainly among desirable cities.

Our society gives clues to the system in place. We all have heard the saying "He has more money than god." There is also an episode of the Simpsons where god meets Homer and says "I'm too old and rich for this."

This is the system on earth because this is the system everywhere.
god is evil because of money.

I don't want to suggest the upper eschelons are evil and good is the fringe.

But they have made it abundantly clear that doing business with evil (disfavored) won't help people. They say only good would have the ear, since evil is struggling for survival, and therefore only the favored could help.

The clues are there which companies are favored and which are disfavored, market domination being one clue, but they conceal it very hard because it is so crucial.

I offer an example of historical proportions:::

People point to Walmart and cry "anti-union".
Unions enable disfavored people to live satisfactorly without addressing their disfavor. This way their family's problems are never resolved. Without the union they would have to accept the heirarchy, their own inferiority.
Unions serve to empower.
Walmart is anti-union because they are good. They try to help people address and resolve their problems by creating an enviornment where there are fewer hurdles.

Media ridicule and lawsuits are creations to reinforce people's belief that Walmart is evil in a subsegment of the indistry dominated by the middle and lower classes.
Low-cost disfavored Chinese labor is utilized by corporate america to maximize margins. They all do it. Only WalMart gets fingered because they are the ones who help, and those who seek to create confusion in the marketplace want to eliminate the vast middle class who have a real chance and instead stick with a lower classes who may not work otherwise. So they dirty him up while allowing the others to appear clean.

The middle class is being deceived. They are being misled into the unfavored, and subsequently will have no assistance from their purchases with corporate america.

I believe the coining of the term "Uncle Sam" was a clue alluding to just this::Sam Walton and WalMart is one of few saviors of the peasant class.

Amercia is a country of castoffs, rejects. Italy sent its criminals. Malcontents.
Between the thrones, the klans and kindred, they "decided" who they didn't want and acted, creating discontent and/or starvation.
The u.s. is full of disfavored rejects. It is the reason for the myriad of problems not found in European countries. As far as the Rockafellers and other industrialists of the 19th century go, I suspect these aren't their real names. I suspect they were chosen to go and head this new empire.

Royalty is the right way to organize a society. Dictatorships and monarchies are a reflection of the antient's hierarchical organization.
Positions go to those who have favor with the rulers, as opposed to being elected.
Elections bring a false sense of how the world is. Democracy misleads people.
Which is why the disfavored rejects were sent to the shores of America::To keep them on the wrong path.

Jesus Christ is a religious figure of evil. These seperatist churches formed so they could still capture the rest of the white people, keeping them worshipping the wrong god.
And now they do it to people of color, Latinos and Asians, after centuries of preying upon them.

Since Buddism doesn't recongnize a god, the calls are never heard, and Chinese representation is instead selected by the thrones.
It was set up this way. Perhaps dyanstic thrones had a say, but maybe not.
Budda was the Asian's Jesus Christ::: bad for the people. "They came up at the same time for a reason."

Simpson's foreshadowing::Helloween IV special, Flanders is Satan. "Last one you ever suspect."
"You'll see lots of nuns where you're going:::hell!!!" St. Wigham, Helloween VI, missionary work, destroying cultures.
Over and over, the Simpsons was a source of education and enlightenment, a target of ridicule by the system which wishes to conceal its secrets.

Jews maim the body formed in the image of "god", and inflicted circumsision upon all other white people, as well as the evil that is Jesus Christ.
I think about how Jews (were used to) created homosexuality among Slavics, retribution for the Holocaust.
Then I think of the Catholic Church and its troubles.
What connection is here between Jews and the Catholic church???
If it is their sinister motives that’s behind the evil that is Jesus Christ are they being used at all?
Perhaps it is them who are pulling strings.
Their bondage in Egypt proves their disfavor. The Jew leaders decided to prey on the up-and-coming Europeans to try to fix their problems with the ruling elite, a recurring aspect of their pathology.

I believe Islam is the one true religion, and those misled christians who attack "god's" most favored people will pay for it dearly one day.

Hoo boy, someone's off his meds...

As regards verbosity, Gramps beats tubby hands down. Logic-wise, I'd say a tie.

I'm back and lying better than ever!
I am so scared now that I see Iraq will be a success sooner rather than later.

It is time for fast spin mode. I will be making up shit like speaking to my "pro-war buddies" and using terms often associated with me, against you dummies -- moving goal posts.

Let us pray:
Dear O powerful Ward Churchill terrorist in the sky, please strike down the Americans and bring our sons of Saddam and Yasser to victory. My other god, Fitzgerald, has failed me. Will you smite Fitz for me, please?

Turning Iraq into a breeding ground for int'l terrorism was usually good for second place.

See that huge lie? Nobody outside the circles of the Kos diarrheaists spoke of that crap. But I'm so slick that I'm going to slip that right by you. Just a lie.

When the invasion occurred, I don't recall anyone saying that a sectarian war would be a welcome outcome. Citation?

Here I really stick my foot in my stupid anti-American mouth. Not only do I expect you to believe the premise that there actually is a civil war in Iraq, but I try to confuse you with more made up shit. Genius.

"And of course, if all you can say is that the US is still better than Saddam.... is that really good enough?"

Whoah there, tubino. Two problems with this:

1) The US was not the entity torturing these 173 people

2) The new Iraqi government is not perfect. It is also way, way better than the old Iraqi government. This is why I accuse you of making the perfect the enemy of the good.

I understand where you're coming from. Remember, a lot of us who currently line up differently than you started out on the left, too. I still believe in peace, love, understanding and all that jazz. Torture makes me feel ill when I read about it and many's the time I just want to say "the hell with it - let's just come back home and we won't have to deal with it. As long as we're not the ones with blood on our hands."

That's why it's a good thing that people like me aren't currently in charge.

Unfortunately, we don't have any FDRs or HSTs or even JFKs on offer right now - principled liberals who are willing to use this country's might for good. We have the Republicans, whom I'm not overly fond of, and tweedledums like Dick Durbin, who make the Republicans (barely) acceptable by comparison.

Both the Sunnis and Shiites, for different reasons, may actually want a civil war. Both may think they can win. Seriously. Consider this: Historically, the Sunnis have always been the ones staffing the officer corps in the Army and secret police. They are better organized than the Shiites and very determined to come back to the top. They may also believe that starting a civil war will get Sunni arab "peacekeeping" troops from other Arab countries in to help them.

As for the Shiites, we all know they are 60% of the country, and have over two generations worth of atrocities to revenge. The Kurds would probably split off and form their own state with as much of the Northern territories as they could grab. Iran would no doubt help their fellow Shiites as well.

The overall result would be a bloodbath - and proof that democracy can not work in Arab countries. That is a limited defeat for us, true. On the other hand: Iraq will be unable to resume any WMD programs, with any luck the civil war will kill millions tieing up Arab and Islamic energies that would otherwise go into anti-American terrorism, (like France during the 30 years war we could play both sides against each other and keep the pot boiling for decades). And, the Shiites and Kurds can be counted on to cheerfully kill al-qaida terrorists for us, at least, all that they catch. Iraq will be permanently removed as a state which sponsors terrorism -and that Tubino, was our main goal.

So, if the Shiites and Sunnis want their civil war - let them have it.

"with any luck the civil war will kill millions"

Yeah, see, "with any luck" and "kill millions" only belong in the same sentence if you're Stalin, Hitler or someone like that.

You sick fuck.

wears womens underwear and constantly lies to make friends

Rose goes in the front big guy.

Grandpa escaped from the home and has passed through Cold Fury, too.

Keepr: "Come along, old man, and we'll get you some tapioca and let you watch Matlock."

Gramps: "Maaaatloooock!!!!!!"