One reason this resort was targeted, I think, is that there are loads of Israeli tourists there. It's like a little mini-occupation. That must burn their cheese like a de-segregated business (or marriage) must have pissed off the Klan, back in the bad old days.

You forgot the guys wearing heavy winter coats in July.

This point seems to be so obvious that it's difficult to figure out how to articulate it properly. If the Klan engaged in a spate of bombings against black churches, would they be looking as closely at Hispanics and Jews as they would at rednecks and West Virgina Senators?

Ace ... You're trying to be too evenhanded. Some backlash is required. It's part of the actions have consequences thing. If they can't see the problem from our POV then transfer to thier own POV is necessary.

Recent polls in Britian indicate a large percentage of Brit Muslims have the wrong POV.

Mass Transit bag searches (a la NYC) is a good thing, but "random checking" is garbage. Profiling is OK, get over it.*

/TJ
* ... there was never a good time for being PC, and now it can kill us. Get over it.

How much is 'some' backlash, and how much is endless feuding, leading to pogroms and 1,000 year enmities, just like barbarian 'cultures' perpetually engage in?
We still want to be us, the civilized ones, and not resort to that kind of backward, roving-band-of-thuggery.

I've made that point about 'guilt' vs. 'responsibility'--glad to see it said. Words are the springboard of ideas and then action.

Your profiling question is an excellent one, deserving of its only possible answer.

As far as the Jihadis are concerned, Egypt is virtually an infidel regime.

Egypt has a secular government. Mind you, non-Moslems (such as the Coptic Christians) are treated as third-class citizens. A church that wants to get its plumbing fixed has to apply for permission to the Ministry of Religious Affairs, where it takes roughly a decade to get the application processed. But the fact that non-Moslems are actually permitted to participate in public life (e.g. Boutros Boutros Ghali) makes Egypt anathema to the bin Ladenites.

Egypt has actually made peace with and recognizes Israel. The warmth of the peace is comparable to that between France and Germany circa 1913. And the Egyptian security services certainly don't go out of their way to stop terrorists from transhipping weapons into Gaza. But the fact that Egypt treats Israel as another country is a black mark as far as the hard core is concerned.

Egypt actually sent an ambassador -- who was murdered by terrorists--to the new Iraq .

Finally, Egypt would be the optimum country for the Jihadis to overthrow. Large population, well developed industrial infrastructure (for the Moslem world), and access to advanced weaponry.

Laura - Nicely stated.

Ace is right about the need to add arabic appearing to the other data for profiling possible terrorist bombers. We can't really say "Muslim looking", because that could mean just about anyone with facial hair or a big head scarf, but we should recognize that the vast majority of those engaged in such bombings come from the Arab and south Asian nations and add that to the profile mix.

An unfortunate price we pay for having to deal with such terrorists is that we at times end up killing non-terrorists who match the profile and do not respond appropriately to police orders, as may have happened in London yesterday. I really don't see a way around shooting to kill a profile matching person who has managed to run onto a subway car.

I am hopeful that the recent al Qaeda shift in targets to the Arab world, diplomats and tourist centers, will be a huge strategic mistake on al Qaeda's part. Fareed Zakaria argued pretty persuasively on the Daily Show that there is a significant struggle happening in the Islamic world between moderates and extremists. I am reading more condemnations of terrorists from the Muslim community that Ace appears to be reading, and that, along with the fact that Arab strong men do not like to be fucked with by their Imams, gives me my hope.

Contrary to the suggestions sometimes made by anti-terrorists (including myself, when I get sloppy), obviously a lot of Muslims are taken by surprise by this sort of thing too.

Bullshit. And double bullshit as to the Egyptian muslims. Weren't they behind the assasination of Sadat? Didn't they take down an airliner a few years ago? Didn't they massacre all those people at Luxor, including women and children? If I had time I would do a search and start listing all the incidents over the years where they murdered 10 people here, 20 people there, etc., etc .

And what about all those beheadings in Algeria? 15 heads here, 31 heads there. By some guy named Mohammed the Midget, former butcher, experienced beheader, and now living large in Iran.

So, once again, bullshit.

Who's "They"?

The Islamic Brotherhood in Egypt has committed a lot of terrorism, but it's an illegal organization. Obviously those Egyptians murdered by the bombs weren't part of the plot, or else they'd have not come to work that day, like the Jews did on 9-11.

(stifling insane hysteria)

Does it matter who " they" is? Whether "they" are the same group, a splinter group, an entirely different group, it's all for the same cause and "they" having been pulling this crap for 25 years, plus, in Egypt alone. If it was not tolerated or supported by a certain percentage of muslims, do you think it would have lasted this long?

Because its like blaming the USA for the Oklahoma City bombing.

It kinda matters who "they" are, dude.

If your point is that "they," the terrorists, tend to be Islamists, well, yeah, duh.

But Laura's right: white guys did OKC, which doesn't make me a supporter of that.

Oh, brother! If people are being blown up, machine gunned, or having their throats slit, whether it be by the aryan brotherhood, nazi-low riders, national alliance, or whatever. It makes no difference. They are all white supremist groups and have a common cause, do I have to say it? white supremacy. And if it has been going on for over 25 years, it tells me the locals should not be surprised and to a certain extent they have tolerated it.

All these terrrorist groups have a common cause: promotion of islamofacism. Since it has been going on for over 25 years, "obviously a lot of Muslims [should not be] taken by surprise" and it is partially due to the fact that the average muslim has tolerated it. Why are you making me state the obvious?

Have to agree with July here.

"They're being murdered too, and directing one's anger at Muslims indiscriminately is both counterproductive and immoral."

So what? Are we supposed to feel sorry for them when they've been actively complicit in enabling the same terrorism that kills them? I like Jesus and all, but when you're dealing with rabid animals, turning the other cheek eventually becomes suicidal.

They don't want to be blamed for their co-religionists' savagery, fine. Let Moslems start ratting out their own kind. Let them prove as individuals that they can be trusted, because over several decades, the group as a whole has proven that it can NOT. And the reasons it can not are the very reasons that DEFINE the group in the first place.

A convocation of top Islamic "intellectuals" recently declared that as long as the five major tenets of Islam were respected by a Moslem, he could NOT be declared an apostate for any reason. Take a look at those five pillars sometime, Ace. They go like this:

1. Believe in Allah
2. Pray 5 times a day
3. Give alms
4. Fast
5. Go to Mecca

You'll notice that "Don't fucking kill people, assholes!" isn't among them.

"Actual "backlash" should be avoided at all costs."

Really? At ALL costs? Obviously 3000 lives is too low for your tastes. How about 300,000? 3 million? 300 million? Should Moslems launch a nuclear missile at the United States, are you still going to be saying that a "backlash" against the scum who will, inevitably, cheer it - or blandly mumble "All killing is wrong" (sotto voce: "Except if they're infidels!") - shouldn't suffer for it? What exactly does "ALL costs" encompass?

Just to draw out some of the points Megan;

What would a stranger to Earth conclude about the USA's people if they listened to the major media and the effluent flowing from the mouths of our intellectuals?

I'm for defining and punishing treason and traitorship. I'm for stiffening immigration security, and transportation security.

I'm NOT for joining a posse with Bubba and Steve and becoming modern day Night Riders.

You know me toots. I'm all about defending civilization. Ask anybody.

"I'm NOT for joining a posse with Bubba and Steve and becoming modern day Night Riders."

C'mon, Laura, no one's arguing for that. But when you have "backlash" being defined as basic profiling techniques and you have to practically BEG Moslems to denounce terrorism, and even then they include barely-veiled threats like that "All evil rebounds back on itself" crap, I think vigilante posses are quite a distance over the moral horizon. Like, not even in the same playing field. Not even close.

What I want a straight answer on is this: while we're so busily and prissily denouncing even the CHANCE of an as yet completely nonexistent "backlash," has there been ANY serious effort by the broader Moslem community to do anything about the very REAL atrocities their co-religionists perpetrate?

No. None.

Sure, there are one or two seemingly real moderates here and there, and a handful of really decent Moslems like Irshad Manji and Abdel Rahman al-Rashed (writer of the "Almost all terrorists are Moslems" column). But what about the rest of them? Greasily smooth, ostentatiously Westernized MPAC and CAIR spokesmen show up on CNN and Fox to parrot the usual "Islam is peace" garbage, but we all know that that's not their real face, and they're not telling the truth.

When are we going to see actual results?

Y'know, something like 10,000 Moslems showing up at a rally unequivocally AGAINST Bin Laden and his crowd? (Hell, I'll take 500. Or even 100.) A terrorist cell being captured or killed because of specific information being given by Moslems who become aware of it? A fundraiser for suicide bombers disrupted, the organizers beaten up and taken to the police BY MOSLEMS?

Can you imagine any of this happening? I can't. Can you imagine NON-Moslems doing anything else? I can't.

Again: the characteristic that defines the group (Islam) is the primary obstacle to that group acting like they're familiar basic f'in human decency.

So when are we forced to seriously consider setting up internment camps like we did in WW2? I'd like a number, since apparently, right now, holding Moslems collectively responsible for their massive and overwhelming failure to join the fight against UBL and his cohorts is, apparently, unacceptable to you and Ace.

Once more: 3000 people are already dead. Collective punishing Moslems (or hell, even collectively inconveniencing them) is, right now, unacceptable. Even though their unhelpful attitude is causing MORE deaths every day.

Where's the line? What's the number? Another 3000 dead, 3 million, or more? Right now there's absolutely no reason for Moslems to change. Why do you imagine they would change (if you do) once al Qaeda murders a few more Americans? And if they don't, how long are you prepared to accept their current, extremely unhelpful attitudes and behavior?

...has there been ANY serious effort by the broader Moslem community to do anything about the very REAL atrocities their co-religionists perpetrate?

Not fucking nearly enough. I'm with you. Not sure you read the whole thread; I was responding to July at 5:24 pm, who was pretty much intimating that ALL Egyptians were the problem. Again, if the Islamic Brotherhood in Egypt = All Egyptians, then a few white supremacists in the US = All of Western Georgia. There are many co-conspirators in Appalachia, but that doesn't mean if we turn the place to a sheet of glass, we're done with racism. This is some weird fucked up new war. Total war isn't the answer here. Its going to be a long road. Think cancer. Some surgery, some radiation, some therapy, rinse, repeat. Long road. It is frustrating because we're the poor saps who have to live it.

A terrorist cell being captured or killed because of specific information being given by Moslems who become aware of it?

The Lackawanna 7? Am I wrong? I thought they were given up by co-religionists.

...holding Moslems collectively responsible for their massive and overwhelming failure to join the fight against UBL and his cohorts is, apparently, unacceptable to you and Ace.

Do you automatically assume that EVERY muslim knows terrorists? I would assume that they don't all get the Jihad newsletter, full of information about upcoming plots. I would assume, that like most murdering nutballs, the bad guys have a network of people they can 'trust,' and keep their plans and preparations to themselves otherwise.

Greasily smooth, ostentatiously Westernized MPAC and CAIR spokesmen show up on CNN and Fox to parrot the usual "Islam is peace" garbage, but we all know that that's not their real face, and they're not telling the truth.

Oh, I've had enough of these assholes, you betcha. I am not kidding. These pricks will suck up primetime news fucking defending and covering for terrorism, but do they ever fucking criticize the attackers? No, they say it was an abominable tragedy BUT...

-But?? FUCK YOU.
I'm with you there girl. Oh yes. CAIR needs a breath of fresh air. Right between the eyes.

"The Lackawanna 7? Am I wrong? I thought they were given up by co-religionists."

Lackawanna 6, supposedly it was an anonymous letter from an Arab-American. But that should be the rule and not the exception.

"Do you automatically assume that EVERY muslim knows terrorists? I would assume that they don't all get the Jihad newsletter, full of information about upcoming plots."

Good point, and no, I don't. Or at least I try not to. :/

Umm, they don't HAVE to get a newsletter. The shit that goes on in WAY too many mosques would make your toes curl.

Do I think all Muslims know a terrorist? Not only am I fairly sure they do, I'm even more certain that all of them RESPECT at least one.

Yeah, after I hit 'send' I thought about the Imams' concerted calls to fatwa.
Aaaaanyway...

Some parts of this discussion reminded me of organized crime, and how most Sicilians, Jamaicans/fill in the other stereotypical ethnic groups/ are working class schmucks with no ties to gangsters. Yet these gangsters often stick to their cultural conclaves.

I'd love to see a side-by-side comparison of the hierarchical structures and support network of organized crime, and those of terrorist cells.

I'd imagine there are both significant differences (less familial structure with terrorist cells) and significant similarities (money laundering, drug money, etc.).

However impolitic, Megan is right to ask where this is leading, because one day people will lose patience. Civilization only runs so deep. The Germans were arguably the most civilized -- certainly the most educated -- people in Europe at the turn of the last century. The great names of 19th century mathematics, physics, philosophy, and music are mostly German. No matter. Two world wars later Germans were not even recognizably human much less civilized.

In the west we cede the right of violence to our governments with the understanding that they will protect us. When this contract breaks down, violent anarchy is the result. This is where we are headed the longer terrorism continues.

Now is the time to ask how far we are prepared to go to end terror.

Exactly, Ted. Thanks for recasting the point I was clumsily and lengthily trying to make. We should have this discussion, now, before things progress to the point where we can't. And, in order to have an honest and useful discussion, we need to recognize certain facts, however unpalatable they might be.

Not fucking nearly enough. I'm with you. Not sure you read the whole thread; I was responding to July at 5:24 pm, who was pretty much intimating that ALL Egyptians were the problem.

Fuck you, too. Don't tell me what I was or was not intimating. I responded to this nonsense of Oh! Oh! poor muslims! A lot of them are taken by surprise by this sort of thing, too! Bullshit. And, once again, fuck you, too.

What backlash? I'm always hearing about the backlash. What fucking backlash? It's a tool. Backlash. I call backlash. Backlash is code for, I demand that you turn around, bend over, and say “Please sir, may I have another?" I'll pass.

My poor tiny brain is getting confused by all the anonymous comments. I can't figure out who's talking to whom anymore.

My theory on why the left refuses to even discuss this is this:

The left, or at least large swaths of the left, do not like any religion. At all. Their ultimate goal is to make faith look like a bunch of intolerant whackjobs who kill anybody they don't like too much.

Which is why they defed Islam right now. Islam, to the left, is how all religions are. They're annoyed with Judaism and Christianity because violence is not one of the central tenets of the faith. They want the dominant religion to be a violent one, so all of their moaning about how intolerant and violent "religios fanatics" are will eventually be a truthful statement.

We have a faith in this coutry whose goal is to tear down the country. They're no different than Communists in all non-Commuist states and the Nazis in Weimar Germany. All Muslims don't want America to die --- but a frighteningly large percentage DO and an even larger number are willing to not do anything to stop it.

We have a group that means us harm and action needs to be taken. Hell, we burned down the Branch Davidians and they didn't actually do anything. The gov't attacked them, I have to assume, because they deemed them a threat in the making (and I can't really fault that logic). Islam HAS committed considerable violence against us (and plans to commit increasingly larger attacks) and, if not for some lucky breaks and timely police work, they would have committed considerably more.

Muslims should be given the chance to clean up their house. If they refuse, we should clean up their house for them and ban their "faith" as a public safety concern. And if they complain, tell them to find a sane pedophile bigamist to base their joke of a faith around.

The first one they chose delivered one horrid religion.

Some backlash is required

How much is 'some' backlash?

The civil rights movement is one example of backlash, the klan is another. The civil rights backlash finally forced "moderate whites" to choose between "understanding race backlash" and human decency.

The time has come to find a way to force that choice on "moderate muslims".

3:50 am, I wasn't saying 'fuck you' to YOU in that post.
Sheesh.
I was agreeing with Megan that muslims have not done nearly enough to help combat terrorism, and it is frustrating. But at the same time disagreeing with you, anonymous, that this means ALL muslims are complicit. Disagreeing civilly.

Maybe I had too much red wine and didn't write it so clearly.
Two Oceans, a drinkable blended '03 red from South Africa, bargain at 7.99 a bottle in CT.
Again; SHEESH

Good point Boris.

I would add, using the civil rights movement, look how long it takes to change human hearts. We still have people in this country wrangling with their hearts, or stuck in the past.

The 'hearts and minds' part of this is what takes so frustratingly long, and makes them stick together. They've been steeped in this terrible mindset forever.

-although bombing the shit out of them is still a tool in the box.

I know. I quoted what I objected to and I will do it again: Not sure you read the whole thread; I was responding to July at 5:24 pm, who was pretty much intimating that ALL Egyptians were the problem.
I know what YOU were intimating about me. So, once again, FUCK YOU.

Suggestion for mu.nu; please make the Name field on the comment entry page a require field.

Nobody has actually admitted guilt. These rabid animals have made an admission of responsibility for their actions, but they do not believe they are guilty. An admission of guilt implies repentance. On the contrary, they believe we are the guilty ones. They are like the defendent who stands in a courtroom and defiantly tells the judge that he will commit his crime again.

You are quite spunky.

Personally, I thought that was one of the spicier comments :)

so, I was getting on the subway yesterday, and I happened to pass the AoS himself (known to his friends and that faggot Brewfan as trekkie mcKnobslurper) wearing a green tattered tutu and a hulkamania wifebeater.

as I went to compliment him on his pathetic excuse for an al franken air america impersonation of a radio show, I noticed he had a tatoo on his forehead.

It read:

roses are red,
violets are blue
yesterday brewfan told me he was really cedarford
as we took turns forcing jeff B to have sex with a pig,
after which my high school chess team took turns fucking my mouth.

as i turned to leave, I noticed a tip jar with 3.50 in it.

"Is that for tips?" I politely asked.
"No, thats what i've made so far selling t-shirts" he replied.

oh yeah, I almost forgot. On my way to collect the $5.oo Michaels dad made on the corner giving hand jobs, I stopped by Brewfan's house. After engaging in some three-way action with his mom and sister that would make ron jeremy jealous, I paid them $300.00.

In MONOPOLY money

stupid bitches.

Son of America

P.S. lauraW, love your show.

my bad. that was supposed to go in the flame thread.

Mm-Hmm.
I decided to be a sport and put my foot in your beartrap on the flame thread.

So out with it, then.

I saw it over there, SoA, but you're a day late and a dollar short ;)

And you are spunk.

I didn't want to have to pull out the big artillery.
Sigh. This is the hardest thing I've ever had to do.
Please understand, this hurts me more than its gonna hurt you.

I am rubber.
You are glue.
Everything you say....

Anyone who still thinks that muslims can coexist peacefully with civilized people is just delusional. They are backward savages from a stone-age culture, and will never learn how to behave like human beings.

lauraw, maybe it's not an insult but a proposition?

Eww Dave no, LOL, but he's really got a hair across his ass, eh.

Yeah, wherever 'dander' goes when it's up, I'd say his was there.

Or I'd say something more unintelligible, if I could think of something.

Anyone who still thinks that muslims can coexist peacefully with civilized people is just delusional. They are backward savages from a stone-age culture, and will never learn how to behave like human beings.

So many counterfactual statements in a two sentence paragraph.

Muslims successfully live in civilized societies and coexist with civilized people all over the world. Some Muslims are terrorists and so would be ruled outside of what we currently call civilized, but the vast majority of Muslims are not in this catagory. Muslims can in fact be credited for valuing and expanding on the knowledge of the classical world at a time when such knowledge and curiosity were being surpressed by European civilization.

There are very few peoples in the world still living in stone-age cultures, some Amazonian tribes and maybe some tribes in New Guinea. An argument could be made that the Islamists would have the Islamic world return to a Medieval culture that they see as the true expression of Islam, but stone-age misses the mark by several millenia.

Humans are a particularly nasty as well as a particularly exalted species, and the behavior of Islamists and terrorists fits well within the range of human behavior. To deny this is to deny the potential that all humans have for great and banal evil.

No, it didn't hurt you enough. Go back to humping ace's leg.