My son, 3 times. My daughter just once, and I'm convinced she pushed it to that point just to make sure she wasn't missing out on anything. My son (2 1/2) laid down and threw a fit in front of 4 lanes of traffic on Amsterdam Ave--he could have been flattened.

You have to make sure that's the only way to get your point across, you have to be calm and not scare the shit out of them and of course you must wear that look of regret and tell them it hurts you more.

Then whale away!

The two signs that you are an awful parent according to the those who know better - spanking, and toy guns.

Check, and check.

Dude, spanking is nothing. When I was 16, I told my mother to "go screw [her]self." SLAP across the face. I never said that again.

My mother's not a small woman, either. My face still stings slightly in memory.

Spongeworthy basically echoes what Dobson says about it - has to be appropriate (not just cause you're mad, and you don't spank a 3 year old for spilling milk, you do for hitting his mom in the face or setting the dog on fire), has to be consistent (so they aren't confused about the rules), has to be done in love (not while you're screaming at them - go calm down if you have to). Make sure they understand why, discuss it afterwards, always love on em.

I understand why some people don't want to, that's fine. I understand why some are concerned about abuse, it's real. I think Dobson is trying to educate people about loving discipline (haven't seen the ads, but that's his message).

As one with no kids, my favorite tactic for eliciting gasps of surprise and outrage from my breeder co-workers is by advocating severe beatings for every transgression, great or small.

Seriously, though, as someone who was disciplined with the belt, I don't see anything wrong with scaring the crap out of the kid along with the spanking. As we called it in my house, "The Fear of God." It's my experience that that fear is a more powerful check on one's mischevious tendencies than the spanking.

This may get me ejected from the blog, but: this reminds me of an episode of Desperate Housewives...

Loving discipline so that they don't end up gay you mean. Cause, they gays, they are the ruin of all civilization.

Daily Oklahoman on 10/23/04, "Homosexuals are not monogamous. They want to destroy the institution of marriage. It will destroy marriage. It will destroy the Earth." -Dobson

I think some of the concern stems from that they would let this guy put an ad on their network and not the UCC who wanted to promote love and diversity on their channel last year. And the show that the ad was shown on is pretty anti spanking, way to undermine your own message ABC.

I was at a mandatory staff training session for a summer camp job I had some years ago, and this foolish woman was talking about disciplining errant campers. When she came to the part about spanking always being a form of abuse, I began arguing with her.

The great part about this was that she was completely unprepared for it. Not only did she have no coherent defense ready, but she got a look of fear on her face that I still cherish to this day. People aren't supposed to argue in sensitivity training sessions, right?

Yeah, spank them. Spank the hell out of them. Sometimes it's the only way the brats get the idea.

So Andrew. Lets say you and I disagree about something. I'm sure there are a lot of things we would disagree about. You disagree heartily with me. And after some attempts to persuede you, you still have not come around to my point of view. So I grab you and beat the crap out of you. (Which really gets rid of most of my frustration.) Are you now convinced? Or are you just going along with me so I don't hit you again? Is this a productive way to teach children to settle disagreements?

I understand that kids don't always listen etc etc, but I just don't know that instilling fear in them is the best way to help them grow into rational adults. But obviously everyone has their own technique.

Shinobi,

All due respect, but you don't spank a child over a "disagreement," and a properly administered spanking is not in any way akin to "beating the crap" out of anyone.

We're talking about a CHILD, for God's sake. And yes, sometimes a good spanking is not about "convincing through reason" but getting a child to stop some activity or behavior that they may not understand is inappropriate or even dangerous right now, but will if they live to be old enough to learn.

I'm going to guess that Shinobi has no kids and believes that a one size fits all plan exists for all of the worlds children.

The simple truth is that some situations call for a spanking, not a beating, a smack or 5 in the assular region. On the other hand, some parents will be blessed with children who understand the importance of obedience to their parents.

I don't have any kids, but work in a place where kids are always around.

After the kids are done with their appointments, while mom is settling the bill or chatting with the therapist, the kid plays with the waiting room toys. When it comes time to go, some of the kids go unwillingly. And who can blame them? We have Legos in our waiting room.

Some mothers just pick up the toddler and walk off. Others yell inappropriately and make me close my office door. Then there are the "come let us reason together" mothers. They stand there for sometimes 10-15 minutes (no exaggeration) trying to talk to a screaming child who doesn't want to leave.

It borders on the ridiculous:

Mom: Let's go, honey

Child: NO NO NO NO NO! I WANNA PLAY WIF THE LEGOS!

Mom: But it's time to go home.

Child: NO NO NO NO!

Mom. Honey, we have to go home.

Child: NO WHY?

Mom. Because it's time to go.

And so on, for a few minutes of pure hell for those of us who are trying to work. Yeah, it's easy to reason with a toddler.

"NO NO NO NO!"

was the "child" Rosie O'Donn3ll, perhaps?

was the "child" Rosie O'Donn3ll, perhaps?

Hey...now that you mention it?

Actually, she wouldn't dare come near our building. I wrote a grant to her foundation that wasn't funded. We're still irritated with her.

Spankings are fine...much better than the totally worthless "timeout." That's a real joke.

My brother and two sisters and I all knew the rules...Mom and Dad were always quite clear about it. The line wasn't nebulous either...we knew EXACTLY where it was.

Did we cross it? Of course we did. That's what kids do...push the envelope...see what you can get away with. But we always knew there was a price to pay.

Rules for Spanking

1. Send them to their room first...to think about...15 minutes is sufficient.

2. The lecture. Oh how I hated those...by the time the lecture ended ("Son, I am so disappointed in you" etc), you were begging to be spanked.

3. Then, the spanking...always on the butt. And hard too...after all, if it doesn't hurt, what's the point?

As a parent, when you tell a child if they do "A." there will be consequences...when they commit act "A" there damn well better be consequences or your credibility is shot.

I never got a spanking I didn't deserve...and I didn't get all the spankings I did deserve.

My daughters were raised the same way...they got spankings too...but they were much faster learners than me! They turned out just fine...and are both university students due to graduate soon.

My two cents.

WR95

When the boy is acting like the kid with the LEGO's, I call him over and put him up on my lap and explain as best I can. I may even remind him of the spanking if nothing else is working. But if he ever looks at me with fear in his eyes I think I will just kill myself right then and there.

Gettin' drunk and whuppin' up on the kids is a family tradition that ends with me.

I got the belt---the fucking 1 1/2 inch wide leather belt---across the ass if I really fucked up.

Corporal punishment is ABSOLUTELY necessary for a grounding in the physical realities of life. not all difficulties in life are mental, and without an appreciation for the concrete word of physical pain (the only true epistemological reality, when you get down to brass tacks), a child fails to develop self-discipline.

Shinobi, you are a pandering, weak fool to think that children can be raised without physical punishment. The downward spiral of our culture is at least partially attributable to these mamby-pamby child rearing methods of the last 40 years.

My wife was an ardent supporter of non-spanking. She worked for many years at the local child abuse council and felt hitting a child was totally wrong.

Now we have a 2½ year old.

She is no longer against it (and she's yet to do it, mind you).

Shinobi, a small child is not a small adult. That's a common liberal wive's tale / myth. Children do not have the same cognative ability that most adults have. You cannot explain to a child the harm that could happen if they play with matches. They don't have the ability to comprehend losing everything they've ever had in a fire and how expensive it would be to try to get it back.

They DO however have a rather good knack at avoiding pain (it's how they survive). So, play with matches = no more toys, house, clothes, daddy and mommy have to get 2 jobs each - no comprende

play with matches = ass hurts. Lesson learned.

Shinobi,

You talk as if kids are equal partners in these cases. They're not. The purpose of parenting is to teach your filthy spawn that there are rules, they need to be followed, and that the real-life consequences sometimes hurt.

Parenting is not the fucking UN, where you can talk about things all day and come to no conclusion. It's your job to see to it that the kid does as he's told. Do you have children? If you do, I suggest that you step up to the plate like a man. Or woman, whatever.

"...grounding in the physical realities of life..."

We didn't get hit often, or hard, but we did get hit.
My father was a hothead when we were little, but if he started to come after us with blood in his face, my mother would jump up and block him so that we weren't ever spanked in anger.

I got that slap across the face at age 14 for verbal disrespect to mom that stung like the dickens too, inside more than outside.

Everyone I know my age or younger that were raised by those new-age no-hit parents, still behave like spoiled children, even in their 30's. All of them.

The whole anti-spanking thing mystifies me. There is a significant leap between corporal punishment and abuse. I mean, emotionally abusing your kids is wrong too, but are they going to make kids report their parents for chastizing bad behavior, too (verbal spanking)?

Its outrageous. I cannot believe the way kids act today either. Three-year olds are running the household now.

Anyone who equivocates a spanking with "beating the crap" out of someone is incapable of distinguishing the difference between raising your voice and shrieking your head off.

Pain teaches an animal that something is wrong. Young children do not HAVE the ability to reason and rationalize, so sitting there explaining concepts they can't understand is not an effective means of teaching. And, when they're older and consciously make the wrong decision, sitting there explaining concepts they obviously understand is not an effective means of teaching either.

I would agree that some children don't need to be spanked in order to obey; tone of voice can work on more fragile personalities. But some children DO need the enforcement of pain for them to make the right decisions, and legislation has NO business interfering with a parent's judgment on what works on their child.

Later,
bbeck

Sad to say, I get to watch Supernanny weekly. It is a Mrs. Hammer favorite, along with "The Bachelor/Bachelorette". As they are the only TV shows she watches, I don't complain.

Anyway, I saw the Dobson ads. They were cute. Nothing about spanking, or even discipline, was mentioned. They had little kids saying things like, "I'm going to make a BIG scene in the supermarket today. Right in the checkout line." and "Bedtime tonight? One word - trouble." The point was something like "You can't be this prepared, but for help with your kids, visit focusonyourchild.com"

Not quite hateful, though awfully close by Sullivan standards.

I'm not a parent, so I'm being cautious here. I'm speaking as a former child, and someone who was a quasi-parent to my former SO's daughter.

First, I got spanked. Not often, and not hard. It had nothing to do with disagreement; it was simply a lesson that I couldn't go outside the boundaries my parents set for me without consequences. Whatever it was I did, I'd known when I did it that a spanking was the likely consequence.

My ex's daughter was, in my biased opinion, a pretty remarkable little kid. I never felt like spanking was even worth considering. She never raised problems like that, and issues that did come up were best dealt with by talking about them. A couple of her little friends, though, seemed like they could have profited from the occasional whack on the butt.

Finally, a friend of mine (like myself, a recovering child) was raised by liberals who went in for that "time-out" notion. She was an ADD-type kid, and today she thinks the time-outs were a harder punishment for her to deal with than a spanking would have been.

No really profound thoughts here, except; a) there really isn't a "one-size-fits-all" procedure for raising kids; and b) the "no-spanking" nonsense is just the gazillionth manifestation of PC bullshit. The people who think spanking is automatically the same as abuse are the same people who see sexual abuse looming in every single adult-child encounter.

I have three kids, and I must say that spanking works. You must do it in a consistent manner - first you warn them that if their behavior continues in a manner you have proscribed, they're getting one. Then, if and when they cross that line, you immediately whack them on the ass - once, but hard, and let them know exactly why they got what they did. Then you tell them that if they continue to go this route, they will get more of the same, and that they will have brought it upon themselves. Usually you don't have to do this more than once at a time.

The best part is that after a few of these incidents, they understand full well that if Daddy or Mommy tells them they are on their way to a spanking, they really will get one tout-freakin'-suite, and that it will not be pleasant... Well, let's just say that I haven't had to spank my eldest child in years - the mere mention of one is enough.

Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island - the 3 worse States in terms of liberal Nanny State cocksuckers. A few days ago, in Massachusetts, a man was arrested by police and charged with "assault with a deadly weapon" for spanking his kid, who he had custody of, with a belt after the kid forgot his homework and lipped off. His estranged wife complained to the police about the spanking.

So the guy is charged with a major felony by asshole pigs masquerading as cops, and now there is an "abuse" investigation by the feminists of Mass's Department of Social Services.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2005/04/30/father_charged_after_spanking_son_with_belt/

Why any American would want to live in those States or ACLU-run New York befuddles me.

Interestingly, the REAL cocksuckers...the gays that moved to Vermont...appear to be becoming more conservative as they become part of the culture - They don't want to make another Nanny State like the ones they fled from. Low taxes, sucking dick, fishing, hunting with Billy Mays - type hairy bear men gays, balanced budgets, pro-business growth, Yankee -like independence. Freedom! Guns, low taxes, guns, Ben & Jerry's, and KY jelly!

I'm in CT. Story from a former co-worker;

He went to school to pick up his little girl and was immediately met by the principal and teacher and pulled into a meeting. Once in office, there was a school psych/whatever and a cop. They started grilling him about how he treated his daughter, asking intrusive questions, etc.
Confused and enraged, he asked where his daughter was, he wanted to see her, they refused to allow him to see his daughter. He had to call his wife to get her out of work early and SHE was allowed to bring the child home.
Long story short; for two nights running, he had instructed his daughter to clean her room. She refused.
The following morning, he reminded her that she will not be going anywhere or receiving (X) until that room gets cleaned. She threw a fit, he held firm.

She went to school and told her teacher that he hit her, causing the meeting, etc.
More truth comes out later; this little girl likes one of her teachers quite a lot. She had been led to believe that if her parents were beating her, she could go live with her nice teacher.
So in a fit of pique, and as uncomprehending of reality as a child is, she tried to make it happen, even though this kid has never even been slapped.

Kids in this state threaten their parents regularly with legal action if they don't get what they want, are disciplined, etc. This bullcrap is totally undermining parent's authority.

A couple of parallels between the disciplinary BS and the more broad-spectrum variety of liberal BS, in foreign affairs and elsewhere:

First, absolutism. *Any* discipline of a child is defined as “abuse,” just as *every* injustice is preferable to war, and *any* casualties are unacceptable. Ideologues of any variety are likely to fall into this sort of all-or-nothingism, but I think liberalism, by its utopian nature, is a little more susceptible than surly, suspicious conservatism.

Second, the undermining of authority. One of the things I dislike most about liberalism is its intolerance for any source of authority other than the state: Religion is explicitly barred from the public sphere, and private charity, at home or abroad, is regarded as less important or legitimate than government aid. Why should parental authority be exempt? It’s very much not in the interests of a progressive social order for parents to retain their authority, or for children to respect their parents. If that completely screws up the kids… well, that’s an unfortunate but acceptable trade-off.

I hope I'm not the only one who finds this:

http://wizbangblog.com/archives/005757.php

to be extremely relevant to the issue at hand. What happens when the only punishment you can give a kid is a guilt trip and 5 minutes in the corner of the room? I think we can see the answer pretty clearly now.

I had to complement a cashier one time on a shirt she was wearing. It had a stylized stick-figure drawing of a hand slapping somebody, and the caption:

"Smack the shit out of your kids. God says it's OK."

Excellent.

Ace, I believe your LABS (Least Annoying BullShit) theory, indeed describes a large portion of this country's swing vote.

(They may not be able to define their politics,
but they know what they don't like when they see it.)

Man, I wouldn't have dreamed of acting up on my folks. They pretty much ran on a "We brought you into this world and we'll take you right back out of it" basis.

You damn conservatives. Someone brings up the subject of spankings, and all you can think to do is a rational, reasonable debate using thoughtful analysis and anecdotal personal examples.

I demand shrill jingoism! Where is the outrage over insults and slights, both real and imagined? Where is the hysteria?! And you call this a blog.

Child beating despots.