fwiw - the left-leaning lads at www.sullywatch.blogspot.com generally have *tremendous*ongoing takedowns on the enigma-wrapped-in-a-conundrum-tortured-by-self-righteousness-shrouded-mystery that is Andrew.

... theirs are almost as good as yours, Ace.

I'd like to know why it's ok for groups like moveon.org or the National Gay Lesbian Task Force to try and influence politicians and/or public policy but not Christians? Does somebody (other than cedarturd and Andy Bandwidth) really think Christians shouldn't have a right to voice their opinions, or write their congressman?

Took you long enough to jump on this ACE. Even Insty slaps him around. Ole Sully, the Christians must be purged.

Dude, I don't read the stupid twat anymore.

Haven't read him in... well, almost a year.

This hysterical little shill jumped the shark harder than Pinky Tuscadero.

Puleeze. I was raised more-or-less kinda Unitarian-Jewish, which basically left me religiously schizophrenic until I just had it out with God and we're cool now .

On most issues, I'm solidly conservative -but- I'm a moderate on abortion, and I certainly support a person's INFORMED, DOCUMENTED right-to-die.

I came down on Terri's side - wanna call me a religious zealot?! There are bunches of people who are on Terri's side, some religiously independent, and some of them are even (urk!) liberals.

Come on, everything Excitable Andy (and many others, it seems) does is 'due to the "hatred" and "intolerance" of Christians'... Their hatred and intolerance thereof, that is.

Incidentally -- considering his apparent views on the matter at hand, his use of 'purged' has a rather sinister tone to it, donchathink?

Doesn't Sully have a gay rights parade to attend?

I thought he was going on vacation.

Meanwhile, Mark Steyn notes the big picture.

There's a separation of church and state in the country. There's not a separation of sexual orientation and state. No matter how much the religious nutjobbers would like there to be. It's fine for people to voice religious opinions, but when it's affecting legislation, that's where a line is crossed.

Geez. Ya mean [whines] I have to start going to church now? And wearing long dresses? Screw that, throw Terri in a canal! 'Cos Lord knows the one person I don't want thinking I'm a KKKhristoThug™ is a gay web columnist.

What can I say -- that Andy, he's... he's... he's...

GOB-SMACKINGLY VILE.

Liberal mantra: Anything Christian= everything bad.

They are trying to shame people into forgetting their Judeo-Christian roots.

You know what is great about your Pinky Tuscadero reference Ace?

Had the Fonz ever wanted to marry that hot red-headed little firecracker, he could have done so no problem.

All the motorcycle appletini jumping in the world won't afford Andy the same privilege.

Which makes the take down all the sweeter, considering "gay marriage" is the be all end all of Miss Sullivan's political philosophy.

If it's OK to say that Terri Schiavo is in a "Persistent Vegetative State", is it also OK to assert that Andrew Sullivan is in a "Persistent Fruity State?" Just trying to determine limits here . . .

To expand on a point Ace made/makes, Andy (and others) not only insults Christian conservatives with this schtick, he insults non-Christian (or areligious Christian) conservatives with this schtick.

While born and raised a Roman Catholic, I'm not one any longer. Nothing personal, Mr. Pope; I just don't believe in God any longer. You still have lovely churches and icons.

That said, if I didn't need to listen to my "religious zealotry" to come to the conclusion that what's being done in this case is not only *procedurally questionable*, but also immoral, how can Sully explain that?

This issue came up earlier in the week, in Peggy Noonan's excellent piece on Schiavo, where she talked about how life-- all life-- would be precious to Christian conservatives because it was a gift from the Almighty.

Well, conversely, as someone who believes that life ends entirely at death-- no heaven above or hell below-- I have the same opinion. If once my life is over, everything is over, don't I have a fundamental interest in prolonging that life, no matter what?

As horrible as pain might be, pain means I'm still alive, which as far as I'm concerned, is preferrable to being dead. As long as Terri Schiavo can have a thought in her head, however rudimentary, that's a spark worth protecting. For *her* sake. Because once she's gone, she's gone, and she's never coming back.

Funny, however, that to hold such an opinion I'm automatically cast in together with fundamentalists and creationists.

So much for "diversity of thought."

Sadly,
Dave at Garfield Ridge

Life imitates "art" (okay Andrew Sullivan imitates Southpark).

From Southpark - episode 104 (Big Gay Al's Big Gay Boat Ride):

You see, gayness has existed since the beginning of time. From the Egyptian pharaohs, to the shoguns of Japan. [they cross swords] Uh oh, look out, it's the oppressors. Christians and Republicans and Nazis, oh my! [fires off a shot with his revolver] Ohhh! Oh God, that was close. Okay, let's steer our Big Gay Boat out of here and into a place where gays are allowed to live freely. [Doors open to reveal a scene right out of 'It's a Small World.']

Make that Southpark (a better link)

I'll see your Sullivan and raise you John Cole. Ante up.

All I've got is an Oliver Willis. Can you, I don't know, offer me $5 for it?

"There's a separation of church and state in the country. There's not a separation of sexual orientation and state"

I can't tell if you're funnin' me or not. If you are thats some pretty good parody of Downtown Lad. If you're not, well,...lets see what you have to say first.

All I've got is an Oliver Willis. Can you, I don't know, offer me $5 for it?

No, but I might throw a few circus peanuts at it. What I'm asking for are right-wingers (or nominal right-wingers in Sullivan's case) who have managed to out-hyperventilate Andy and Cole on the religion point. Are there any?

For the record, I am in favor of gay marriage. And I hope Andrew never lies brain-damaged in a nursing home while his husband moves in with a new lover, while still claiming to knows best what Andrew would want.

Goddamn, I sho' likes me the ladies, but I likes me some Apple Martinis, too. Thanks for the booze tip, Ace, ol' buddy ol' pal. Here I was stuck drinking beer and scratching myself. Now I can scratch myself while drinking up-market cocktails.

To his credit, Sully only says Christians should be purged. He hasn't said they should be thrown to the lions, YET!!!

There's a separation of church and state in the country. There's not a separation of sexual orientation and state. No matter how much the religious nutjobbers would like there to be. It's fine for people to voice religious opinions, but when it's affecting legislation, that's where a line is crossed.

Why shouldn't religious voices have a role in legislative affairs? Are you saying Christians shouldn't get involved in politics at all?

So it's okay for anything but religion to influence one's political beliefs. Personally, I don't have an issue with gay marriage, but since I'm a "religious nutjobber" my opinion shouldn't matter, I guess.

I just have to note that the bigots on this thread are incapable of attacking Andrew Sullivan without bringing up the fact that he's gay. Then, since we're attacking Andrew Sullivan for a comment about Christians, and since Andrew is gay, well, we might as well attack me too (Downtown Lad), since Downtown Lad is gay as well.

Face it - you're hatred against gay people runs deep. If Andrew wasn't gay, you wouldn't have an issue with him.

No, Downtown Lad, Andrew Sullivan is the one who's incapable of going three sentences without noting that he is, in fact, gay. They're making fun of that tendency. Suppose I were to start every comment with "As a woman, I feel that..." or something equally irritating and irrelevant, or whether I was continually agonizing about the Feminine Point Of View on things that really have nothing to do with gender. Are the sullywatch people anti-gay as well? Because they take him off pretty regularly on this.

BTW I went to one of the gayest colleges in the midwest. If I really had issues with gay/bi people, I would have spontaneously combusted by now. But feel free to sling the stereotypes around, Sullivan-fashion.

For the record, I am in favor of gay marriage. And I hope Andrew never lies brain-damaged in a nursing home while his husband moves in with a new lover, while still claiming to knows best what Andrew would want.

Funny shit.

Goddamn, I sho' likes me the ladies, but I likes me some Apple Martinis, too. Thanks for the booze tip, Ace, ol' buddy ol' pal.

Make sure to get a slice of apple in your pink martini cup. And- when drinking your cocktail, don't forget to stick out your pinky.

Excuse me Sonetka, but I hadn't even commented on this thread before my name got dragged through the mud. This was a debate on Sullivan's comments about Instapundit's thinking.

So can you please tell me why the fuck my name was brought up if it wasn't because I was gay? I'd be really interested in knowing. I've only ever commented on about a total of four threads of Ace's.

And Like a really give a damn that you went to one of the gayest colleges in the midwest. You mean the same midwest that is making gay people second class citizens?

Face it - you are completely un-fucking capable of having any conversation about Andrew Sullivan without bringing up the fact that he is gay, while also slamming any other gay person you can think of, regardless of the topic.

That makes you a world class bigot. Sorry.

The Schiavo Affair is a made for media effort of Operation Rescue, who picked her as a good symbol amongst the 25,000 Adult non-Alzheimer vegetatives and 8,000 infant Veggies. Young white female stuff makes for better pics and gets more Right to Life contribution money coming in than showcasing some baby born without an upper brain or some old black guy with Alzheimers on a feeding tube.

Damsel in distress works every time. Chandra Levy, Nancy Cruzan, Drew Shejden, Laci Peterson, Jon Bonet Ramsey, Terri. It's a winning formula, and I think the next one will be a pretty Hispanic to help bring in that market niche.

Looks like the Pope is fading fast.

Will his handlers hook him up to machines for a year or so, leaving the RC church rudderless for a long period - or let him go naturally? What is done with the Pope will be of more consequence - obviously - than the Schiavo case.

I can't help but notice all of the gay jokes on this thread. I guess I'm supposed to find them funny...

I'm sorry, but they are on a park with a nigger and kike joke any day of the week. But you guys probably find those funny too.

But oh yeah - it's socially acceptable to make fun of gay people nowadays.

Let's make fun of gay people, call for their imprisonment, and slime their character.

But, god forbid anyone should ever question the tactics of a Christian. The horror! The horror!

Typical Christians. Acting like victims all the time. It's just a glorified cult.

I think I'm going to go celebrate the death of Jesus by having a beer now.

Take care folks!

DowntownLad -

Andrew Sullivan is an interesting case...he was gay, Christian, and out.......but got popular with some very good political and WOT commentary that had nothing to do with gayness, and I don't remember critiques of him then dwelling on his being gay. But then Andy went off the deep end with gay marriage and seemed to wrap all his commentary into being an extension of his gay identity and feelings.

So people now think his gayness is his prime driver and bring it up when discussing his commentaries. I think it's expected.

Leaving that aside, there are some very important issues with illness, benefits, and end-of-life matters in the gay community. Perhaps you can post on that. It would be a different perspective and interesting...to me, and perhaps, to ACE..

Cedarford - I don't give a shit about Andrew Sullivan. I just want to know why the hell my name got dragged into this thread?

I'm sorry, but if there was a thread about Jesse Jackson, and someone decided to bring another black blogger into the discussion for no other reason except the fact that he was black, and then malign him, I'd call that racist.

Debate Andrew Sullivan all you want. But don't bring me into it.

I've already stated on my blog that I'd want to live no matter how many machines I'm hooked up to. And I'd want my parents, not my boyfriend to take care of me. It'd be sweet revenge for my family being complete pricks.

"But oh yeah - it's socially acceptable to make fun of gay people nowadays."

Well, call me insensitive, but people who like to stick gerbils and light bulbs up their asses just give me the giggles.

BTW I went to one of the gayest colleges in the midwest

Do you mean the college acted really gay or what?

Well, call me insensitive, but people who like to stick gerbils and light bulbs up their asses just give me the giggles. - Dogstar

Dogstar - You really are that stupid - aren't you? Why don't you go make fun of Jewish people for making matzoh out of Arab children's blood while you're at it?

Well, let's put it this way- the men's dorm was called "Clang Clang Hall", and it was located on "Went the Trolley Avenue".

Typical Christians. Acting like victims all the time. It's just a glorified cult.

I'll admit, some Christians have a persecution complex. Me, I'm pretty damn content to live where I do - I've been to Russia and while there, met some Christians who were treated badly by the Soviets during their reign of terror.

My issue with Sullivan's comments is that he wants to have it both ways. He demands the GOP tent open up and allow gays and lesbians in, presumably so he can then throw out those who disagree with him. I know the gay marriage debate was personal for him, but it's no excuse for the bigotry he's shown against those of us who happen to have faith.

Yes, yes...I know there is bigotry on our side, too. The difference is, some of us are willing to criticize our bigots, not shout "amen" when they start spouting their hatred.

Um, because they DON'T?

G.K. Chesterton in 1937:

"Religious liberty might be supposed to mean that everybody is free to discuss religion. In practice it means that hardly anybody is allowed to mention it."

Guess Sullivan wants to return to those good old days, huh?

OK, Dogstar, so because Brewfan said that something sounded like a good parody of your style that means I'm a world-class bigot? Way to free-associate there. And I went to Grinnell College in Iowa. It's very activism-oriented and the percentage of GLBT students there is extremely high (I once had a jealous U of I student tell me "You go there? Everyone and his dog is gay at Grinnell.")

Your original post was very unclear as to the fact that you took offense to one person's bringing your name up; you decided to smear every poster here because we talk almost as much about Sullivan's sexuality as he does himself.

You'll havta go after Totten too, then, cuz he's singing the same song

Say what? I think you have me confused with someone else.

"Your original post was very unclear as to the fact that you took offense to one person's bringing your name up..."

I'm guessing you meant DL.

I meant Downtown Lad. Not working at full capacity today, obviously (I'll bet DL would agree with me there :)).

Dogstar - If you believe those gerbil myths, you really are as stupid as those Arabs who buy that anti-semetic crap.

Sonetka - I'm just sick and tired of the crap that gays think as a monolithic block. I can't point you to plenty of gay bloggers who are siding with Terri Schiavo.

Andrew Sullivan is gay, so in Ace's book that makes him a liberal. Really - someone should tell that to the gay liberals out there who can't stand Sullivan, beause they view him as a conservative. I'm gay, so in Ace's book that makes me a liberal. I've had my bigoted asshole of a brother-in-law tell me the same thing to my face. Its' irrelevant that I'm pro-life, pro-war, pro death-penalty, in favor of lower taxes, in favor of less spending, etc. I'm gay so that makes me a liberal.

Whatever.

In my best Lou Costello voice:

I've been a baaaaad boy!

Damn log cabin republicans.

I'm gay, so in Ace's book that makes me a liberal.

This thread's about to get interesting, isn't it?

"If you believe those gerbil myths, you really are as stupid as those Arabs who buy that anti-semetic crap."

So, little Raggett never actually got burned and launched through that cardboard tube?

(ARMAGEDDON!!!!)

That's a relief, because they never did say what happened to the little tyke. I was worried sick.

Yes Dogstar - Those gerbil tales are a myth. Didn't you ever wonder why it was always the local weatherman who was in the story....

Hundred Percenter - Don't you mean "DAMNED log cabin republicans." Because we're all going to hell, right? That's why the Catholic Church has stopped giving funerals to gay people.

Well, the father of my best friend (who I've known for over thirty years) personally treated more than one man with a broken light bulb inside of him. Other objects as well.

So, it seems pretty impossible that nobody stuck anything else up there.

Seriously, how can anyone say it's NEVER happened? How the hell would you know?

How the hell do you know it wasn't the guy's girlfriend who shoved something up there.

I think your friend is full of shit by the way.

Sounds like he's reciting an episode of Scrubs.

http://scrubs.mopnt.com/scripts/DRAFT_402_-_my_office.htm

Goodness! I think your inner female is a bit hormonal today.

It's a fact of life. Fags enjoy sticking things up their asses. My ex-boss used to be married to a man who finally came out of the closet. He told her he liked to hide things in his ass when he was little.

On the point that people assume that gays are liberal; it may be an incorrect label but here's why they make it.

A good many conservative "straight" people look at gays as choosing a "liberal" lifestyle. In thinking that way, they stretch the belief to include political views as well.

That aside, when does Judge Greer's murder trial begin?

Fags enjoy sticking things up their asses

Wrong. You obviously know nothing about gay people or gay sex. Any gay person can point out the obvious flaw in the statement above.

By the way, 35% of straight people engage in anal sex.

Oh for God's sake, can we get away from this irrelevant crap about whether gays like putting stuff up their ass more than straights? Look, there are some people of every persuasion who will put anything anywhere, and using them as representative samples is idiotic, not to mention irrelevant to the discussion. I don't mind taking off Sullivan since he's always making such an issue of it, but he's one guy. Getting on Downtown Lad about his inner female is just low.

DL - Apologies if I came across as saying that gays think as a block; certainly not intended and just as dumb as those polls saying that "Women should vote for Candidate X because he'll preserve our Freedom of Choice!). And Sullivan does get mocked by the left routinely, but I think the problem with Sullivan is that even he doesn't seem quite to know what he is. He was pro-Iraq-war, now he's against (at least last I checked; admittedly I haven't been reading him that regularly for bit). His allegiance now seems to be to whomever will bring about gay marriage as a reality, and it was very strange to be reading him in the middle of last year when he seemed to be desperately reaching for reasons why he *wasn't* conservative, and somehow it all came back to the anti-gay-marriage amendments. Bad news from Iraq which he would previously have regarded as "bad, but fixable" suddenly became totally insurmountable because Bush was a liar and unfair and
discriminatory and oh, did he mention that Bush didn't seem to be for gay marriage? (He was acting like Bush had broken some sort of promise to bring gay marriage about, which was strange). Basically Andrew does seem to be a liberal right now, except that the liberals don't really want him back because they see him as a defector (sullywatch) and the conservatives are tired of him because he's always going on about how the Christian zealots are going to stone him in the name of Jesus, or whatever. Obviously not all conservatives are Christians, or of any religious faith, but a lot of them are - not the far-out type but the fairly relaxed kind - and a lot of Sullivan's readers didn't like how he was going about "Christians" like they were a, um, monolithic block. Sullivan sounds fairly stereotypically liberal, but ultimately he's in his own little party; the Gay Marriage Or Bust party. I'm not sure how that would be classified. And while this has no broader implication for gay bloggers any more than Rosie O'Donnell's ridiculous blog has broader implications for female bloggers, it does make Sullivan eminently mockable.

Well I think it's just great that we have someone who can speak for ALL gays and all the sexual activity they engage in. As a married woman, I guess I can speak for all heteronormative sexual behavior? All women like it on top, and it's a myth that ANY of them enjoy it "in the backdoor." I HAVE SPOKEN.

DL - I think you're being a tad sensitive here. Sully celebrates his gayness - and inflicts it into his politics, so -thus- we mock. Mock mock mock.

Wait, Carin--

"it's a myth that ANY of them enjoy it "in the backdoor." "

...then by the process of elimination, that would mean that that woman wasn't actually...

OH NO!

Whew. Well, at least it means I'm absolutely not a woman.

Oh for God's sake, can we get away from this irrelevant crap about whether gays like putting stuff up their ass more than straights? Look, there are some people of every persuasion who will put anything anywhere, and using them as representative samples is idiotic, not to mention irrelevant to the discussion. I don't mind taking off Sullivan since he's always making such an issue of it, but he's one guy. Getting on Downtown Lad about his inner female is just low.

Agreed. Being gay is the least of the things you can pick on DL for. Why keep going to that well?

Here's a couple of possibilites:

He's a self-righteous doucheboy.

He's a nitwit.

He's a kneejerk liberal hack.

See? A world of possibilities, and the backdoor don't have to come into it at all.

And, DL, I can appreciate that you are the authority on gay sex ... but where did you pull that 35% figure (I don't want to say it, but I must) - out of your ass?

DL is constantly invoked because he's this village's backup idiot.

(The main officeholder should, of course, be obvious.)

So then. Who wants to be the one to tell Hindrocket that the guy pictured in his "A Sad Day" post probably isn't a liberal?

Andrew Sullivan is gay, so in Ace's book that makes him a liberal.

No, it's not his homosexuality that makes him a liberal so much as it's his liberalism that makes him a liberal.

There are gay conservative posters here, dope. I can assure you I don't call them "liberal" just because they're gay.

Hey, dude, if you want to be thought of beyond your sexual identity, maybe you should start thinking of yourself beyond your sexual identity first.

You're gay. Get over it. I have.

Really - someone should tell that to the gay liberals out there who can't stand Sullivan, beause they view him as a conservative.

Yeah, I know. But actually, what you're talking about is far-left identity-politics gays, not "gay liberals," actually. Actual gay liberals probably view Sullivan as right on some issues, wrong on others, but essentially sympatico-- because he is a liberal.

He's not a lefty, though, except, I guess, on gay issues.

I'm gay, so in Ace's book that makes me a liberal.

Once again: No, you're gay because you have store credit at Restoration Hardware.

No, just kidding. You're gay so that makes you homosexual. You're wrong on just about every issue so that makes you a liberal. You're, well, you, so that makes you annoying as all get out.

Allah,

What're ya talkin' about, exactly?

hmmm... okay, I see the picture. Is DL arguing the guy isn't a liberal?

He looks liberal.

And angry.

The two seem to overlap an awful lot lately.

Maybe it's just that we're "winning," but conservatives tend to have a good sense of humor these days, and many liberals none at all?

Aren't there any liberal bloggers posting about Pat O'Brien? Come on, lighten up, guys!

Most of the anti-Jeb anger seems to be coming from the right. Check out HundredPercenter's frontpage. Or this guy. Apparently Jeb is a Nazi and/or Christkiller because he refuses to ignore the courts and send in the Florida State Patrol to wheel Terri or safety. Or something.

I can't find the photo Hindrocket posted on Yahoo News, so it may well be that the gent pictured is a liberal and the caption says as much. But I wouldn't bet on it.

ahhhh... okay, I gotcha. I wasn't sure what you were talking about.

Makes sense.

I'm having a few disputes here about whether it's kosher to sort of hint-hint about shooting people.

Keep your sexuality to yourself.

By the way- there is nothing like a scent of a woman on a spring day.

Hold the phone; here's the photo. Hindrocket appears to be on solid ground, although I don't quite get why the guy pictured would want Jeb to resign over "the possibility" of his stepping in. Makes me wonder whether the caption writer didn't simply assume this guy is a liberal without asking him what, exactly, his position is.

Yeah, the guy in Hindrocket's photo makes it pretty hard to figure out anything except that he hates Jeb, though presumably since the AP got his name they spent five seconds checking out what his views were - though of course, this is the AP, so that might be assuming a lot. Damn protestors today - make your signs less ambiguous! Didn't you learn *anything* in college?

Also, how likely is it that a liberal would be protesting right next to someone with a giant crucifix? Don't people on opposite sides tend to stand on, well, opposite sides when they're protesting at the same location? It's hard to imagine the NARAL folks shoulder-to-shoulder with Operation Rescue people outside abortion clinics.

I got through the first few posts and was getting ready to defend Pinky Tuscadero's honor when this conversation got pulled down the slippery slope of self-righteous absolutism.

Wanna know what's funny - most of the people, like ol' Andy, who believe that Christianity expresses itself as self-righteous absolutism are ...well, self-righteous absolutists. You know - willing to paint with a broad brush, not out of convenience or in pursuit of the elusive funny bone, but as a matter of policy and philosophy.

[And no, that is not an ironic turn of self-righteous absolutism. It is axiomatic.]

So apologies for possibly steering this boat back on topic. It is ever so much fun to have topics dictated to you by whining pseudo intellectuals whose idea of discourse is dropping logic bombs and baiting otherwise well-intentioned parties into the trap of declaring a position that can easily be twisted using the politically correct, multicultural lens of modern liberal sophistry.

Coming up ... another finger of The McCallan's.

DDG

Then again, would someone in the "save Terri" camp really refer to her as "brain dead"?

I tell you, this photo is a fucking Necker cube, man.

Moral of the story: Proceed with caution when making assumptions in all things Schiavo.

Gad what a rediculous argument. Andrew Sullivan is not liberal. More tax cuts, less regulation, very mildly promoting stronger environmental concern, which is some next to the WH, pro-war. Yeah so ia John McCain a liberal? Because the gayness is the only thing different. So acehole MUST base it on that. Also he does not base A LOT of his columns on that fact, just the ones involving gay rights. Now it is a card to play against him.
The 35% number comes from the Hiite report, your words come from your ass. Gay college? Grinnell? Get the F out. So a bigot can't live in Detroit or D.C.?
Religion, like sexual orientation, should be open and free, but play no role in the preferences and prioriries of those dictating the policies of public life.
By the way, if you don't think straight people can be real pervy, I have some websites for you.

Actually, one of the 'on the scene' TV reporters said last night that the opposing sides (geez-can't think of a better term) were in two different areas at first, but as of a couple of days ago they were herded into one area by security.

Someone e-mailed me today and said they they saw a wider shot of the 'payback' guy, and that he was standing right next to the people there in support of Terri.

Sure, Tim S, because John McCain spent most of last year twisting himself into a pretzel over gay marriage and altering his previous views based entirely on one issue. Oh, and I don't know when the last time you read Sullivan was, but if it was more recently than two years, he isn't pro-war, just wringing his hands over The Horror, The Horror That We Have Wrought. And then soliciting huge donations for "bandwidth" and going on vacation. And I didn't say it was an exclusively gay college, I said that there was a strong GLBT presence there (nice place too, go visit sometime) and that I did NOT, in fact, regard them as a pervy monolithic-thinking Neanderthals, and I objected to all of Ace's commenters being sweepingly labeled as bigots on the basis on some stupid jokes. But then, why am I bothering? If I'd gone to f*cking Bob Jones University it's not like you'd think any different. Excuse me for trying to demonstrate that we're not some monolithic gay-bashin' sibling-lovin' block just because we think a certain political commentator is a self-delighted, whining, donation-mulcting jerk and that severely retarded women shouldn't be starved to death EVEN IF THAT MEANS WE AGREE WITH SOME PEOPLE ON THE CHRISTIAN RIGHT! You're the bigot, Tim S. No matter how many gays, straights, bis or whatever do or don't practice anal, nothing will ever change that particular fact.

Well, since the debate has risen up, thus it must fall, or slice, like a fucking hammer. Gerbal stuffing: Urban Legend, make no mistake about it.

People, gay and heterosexual being stupid and shoving ungodly things up their asses, true, to the horrific degree you can imagine.

I give you, another Cecil Adams column:

The Question:

Dear Cecil:

While discussing a gay acquaintance recently, my friend Mary, a nurse, lauded him by adding, "and he's no damn gerbil stuffer, either."

When I protested that she should not perpetuate cruel stereotypes of our homosexual brethren, she informed me that she personally had witnessed a fellow admitted by her hospital to remove a deceased gerbil lodged in his rectum. That gentleman is now doomed to be tied to a colostomy bag through eternity.

What I'd like to know is, what are the mechanics and philosophy of gerbil stuffing? How are the gerbils inserted and retrieved? Don't they bite and scratch? Why not hamsters or snakes? Is this a common practice? My curious friends and I await your reply with bated breath. --Shannon O., Chicago

The Answer:

Dear Shannon:

Brace yourself, toots. What follows is not for the weak of stomach. For starters, an awful lot of stuff has been found where that gerbil was found. The medical journals list, among other things, the following astonishing array:

A bottle of Mrs. Butterworth's syrup, an ax handle, a nine-inch zucchini, countless dildoes and vibrators including one 14-inch model complete with two D-cell batteries, a plastic spatula, a 9-1/2-inch water bottle, a deodorant bottle, a Coke bottle, a large bottle cap, numerous other bottles, a 3-1/2-inch Japanese glass float ball, an 11-inch carrot, an antenna rod, a 150-watt light bulb, a 100-watt frosted bulb, a cucumber, a screwdriver, four rubber balls, 72-1/2 jeweler's saws (all from one patient, but not all at the same time, although 29 were discovered on one occasion), a paperweight, an apple, an onion, a plastic toothbrush package, two bananas, a frozen pig's tail (it got stuck when it thawed), a ten-inch length of broomstick, an 18-inch umbrella handle and central rod, a plantain encased in a condom, two Vaseline jars, a whiskey bottle with a cord attached, a teacup, an oil can, a six-by-five-inch tool box weighing 22 ounces, a six-inch stone weighing two pounds (in the latter two cases the patients died due to intestinal obstruction), a baby powder can, a test tube, a ball-point pen, a peanut butter jar, candles, baseballs, a sand-filled bicycle inner tube, sewing needles, a flashlight, a half-filled tobacco pouch, a turnip, a pair of eyeglasses, a hard-boiled egg, a carborundum grindstone (with handle), a suitcase key, a syringe, a file, tumblers and glasses, a polyethylene waste trap from the U-bend of a sink, and much, much more.

In 1955 one man who was "feeling depressed" reportedly inserted a six-inch paper tube into his rectum, dropped in a lighted firecracker, and blew a hole in his anterior rectal wall. This changed his mood real quick.

"Insertion of foreign bodies into the rectum," as it is formally known, is by no means confined to gays. Many cases are ascribed to autoeroticism on the part of straights. Leaving aside victims of assault or accident, however, practitioners do have one thing in common: they're incredibly stupid.

You don't need to be an Einstein to realize that insertion of objects presents enormous health risks. The rectum can become lacerated, torn, or infected. Long-term effects can include a flaccid sphincter and fecal incontinence.

Which brings us to gerbils. While the examples above are well-documented in the medical literature, live or recently deceased fauna are something else.

Rumors of gerbil (and mouse or hamster) stuffing have been circulating since about 1982. In 1984, a Denver weekly said it had a confirmed report of gerbilectomy in a local emergency room.

The Manhattan publication New York Talk reported several years ago that New York doctors first caught on to stuffing when they started encountering patients with infections previously found only in rodents.

But no such case has ever found its way into the formal literature of medicine. Having investigated the matter in some depth, I am inclined to write the whole thing off as an urban legend.

Your nurse friend stoutly maintains that a patient was treated for a case of ingrown gerbil at her hospital in Chicago. But she concedes she did not read the patient's chart or see any documentary evidence.

A doctor and a nurse at the hospital to whom she appealed for corroboration of her story say they know nothing of any such case, although they had both heard about gerbil stuffing, the nurse from cops in the emergency room, the doctor at a medical meeting.

That's pretty much the story all over. I have checked with numerous sources in both the gay and medical communities, and though everybody has heard about gerbil stuffing, every attempt to track down an actual case has come to naught.

The whole business sounds completely nuts, and implausible to boot. Whatever the case, take my advice and stick to mammals your own size.

--CECIL ADAMS

As to the percentage of heterosexual couples that engage in anal sex on a regular basis? Not anywhere near 35%. Try Source; happy searching for your 35% number.

No judgments, but statistics thrown around without a foundation or connection to the topic at hand (Downtown Lad, you made a false dilmemna logic failure) don't mean squat.

Sorry about the source. Loose shit (sorry for the bad bun...I mean pun).

Downtown Lad:

Unless you can give me a list of martyrs like Dred Scott, Homer Plessy, Rosa Park, etc., your attempt to equate the gay rights struggle with those that history has hammered the living shit out of such as American people of color, Catholics, Jews, Irish, disabled, Native Americans or any other group, then spare me.

You argue so vehemently that gay people's viewpoints should not be typified by their sexual proclivities, yet you still demand to be recognized as a member of a group that deserves special treatment. This seems to be a paradox. Perhaps it is not. But on the surface, it sure does seem that way.

We are all born in this life with burdens, some are blessed with few, most are cursed with many. Those who succeed do so not because of their burdens, but despite them. If you wish for an example of such a being, think Lance Armstrong.

Hey, Rocky! Watch me pull a rabbit out of my ass!

>The Schiavo Affair is a made for media effort of Operation Rescue, who picked her as a good symbol amongst the 25,000 Adult non-Alzheimer vegetatives and 8,000 infant Veggies. Young white female stuff makes for better pics and gets more Right to Life contribution money coming in than showcasing some baby born without an upper brain or some old black guy with Alzheimers on a feeding tube.

Hmmm, M. Schiavallo's lawyer, Judge Greer, plus their assorted friends and relations on the hospice board, plus Dr. Cranford -- are all active right to die people. The right to life people didn't get a legal word in edgewise.

The whole thing sounds like a horror movie, with Terri entrapped in a ghoulish net.

Sounds to me like she is being used by the right to die folks as poster girl to tenderize the "mercy killing" meat. Death by starvation is a cruel and agonizing torture -- so it would be much nicer to treat the handicapped to "merciful" lethal injections, eh?

Good point, Snowy.

"If it were done when 'tis done, then 'twere well
It were done quickly: if the assassination
Could trammel up the consequence, and catch
With his surcease success; that but this blow
Might be the be-all and the end-all here,
But here, upon this bank and shoal of time,
We'ld jump the life to come. But in these cases
We still have judgment here; that we but teach
Bloody instructions, which, being taught, return
To plague the inventor: this even-handed justice
Commends the ingredients of our poison'd chalice
To our own lips."

These are the words of a villain.

Here's a couple of possibilites:

He's a self-righteous doucheboy.

He's a nitwit.

He's a kneejerk liberal hack.

See? A world of possibilities, and the backdoor don't have to come into it at all.

Hey Ace - I live in New York. You live in New York. How about meeting up and you telling me the above to my face.

Completely serious.

Do you have the guts? Or are you a wimp?

Unless you can give me a list of martyrs like Dred Scott, Homer Plessy, Rosa Park, etc., your attempt to equate the gay rights struggle with those that history has hammered the living shit out of such as American people of color, Catholics, Jews, Irish, disabled, Native Americans or any other group, then spare me. - Kkktrio

So now you deny the Holocaust Kkktrio? Why am I not surprised. Most people lament the fact that 10,000 people were killed by the Nazis for being gay. You deny it never happened.

Figures.

Ace's definition of a conservative: One who hates fags.

Like I said. I'm pro-life, pro death-penalty, in favor of lower taxes, in favor of less government spending. Pro-war.

But oh - I'm not a self hating gay. So I'm a liberal.

Better than being a wimp like Ace though. Cmon Ace - I want to meet you in person so you can insult me to your face. And don't bring any of your friends to protect you.

Serious Ace - When do you want to meet up?

Such a woos.

Just a hint, DL. When you start challenging people to fights, it pretty much says you've lost the high ground, and any credibility you have.

Best to let this one go.

Fight slublog? I just wanted to see if Ace had the guts to throw insults in person. Let's see if he does. I can't predict what will happen afterwards. What do you usually do when people insult you to your face?

No - people have lost the high ground when they start throwing insults and stop debating the issues. I'd prefer to actually be able to have a discussion without "faggot" and anal-sex being thrown around.

I'll debate any issue on its merits. But if you want to start insulting me fine, but have the guts to say it to me face.

I want to see if Ace has the guts to call me a faggot to my face? Then we'll see who the real faggot is.

I'll see your Sullivan and raise you John Cole. Ante up.

Come now, Allah. I am not your enemy. I am, however, shocked by the fringes in my party, and I do think that by ignoring the warnings that some of these people would want to do what they are doing, we are partially to blame.

We have Governor Bush sending in the DLE only to be stopped by local sheriffs and a court order.

We have special legislation crafted to invalidate years of leagl tradition.

We have Tom DeLay and others VILLIFYING Michael Schiavo and flat out making shit up.

We have people denying that a feeding tube is medical treatment.

We have laws, written by legislators, dutifully followed and adjudicated faithfully by CONSERVATIVE judges and upheld by CONSERVATIVE APPEALS COURTS, and some are screaming judicial activism.

We have wingnuts letting their ten year old kid be arrested.

We have people pretending that Terri Schiavo can either grow back a brain, or miraculously woke up the other day after fifteen years in a vegetative state and said "I want to live" to her parent's attorney.

And you claim I am the hysterical one? I am just recognizing what we have created. And I have no plans to leave the Republican party.

As far as I can tell, DL, Ace isn't even calling you a faggot here. I would have thought it impossible for anyone to be more hysterical than Sullivan, but you seem to have pulled it off.

I suspect Ace wouldn't have too much trouble with some pansy who calls himself Downtown Lad (snicker).

Downtown Lad:

Slinging statistics around don't cut it and you know it. Of course I am quite aware of the thousands of homosexuals that were killed by the Nazis. They were sort of no nonsense about their nonsensical death machine. I also seem to remember Gypsies got quiite the nasty deal by them. As did Slavs, Poles and countless others. Many died for being of mixed blood.

What you have done is posit a number and race to a conclusion about me. Where did I do that about you? I merely averred that you citing statistics and drawing conclusions from those without the missing syllogism is not of much merit. Which you have again proved to be quite good.

You'll notice I posted some research regarding the gerbal stuffing hoax being an Urban Legend. I agreed with you. That at the very least demonstrates my ability to be open minded about things that you say. I am not asking for a thank you, but please do not make blanket statements about me simply because I disagre with you on a given issue.

Regarding your feeling part of a discriminated minority, I believe there is truth to that. And on a personal level, I have no idea what your experiences have been. If they have been horrid, then my heart feels pain for that. But to extrapolate your own burdens and throw them in the face of others is not really a decent way to behave.

Thus, no matter what your personal pain has been, and collectively the discrimination of your group, you must understand that there are groups on this earth that have been suffering longer and harder than your group. Does that make your group's suffering acceptable? Of course not, but do not equate the black man's struggle for acceptance in our country to that of yours. This is not even comparable. The magnitude of the horror is important in the big picture.

You want tolerance and acceptance. Then work for it. Just like everyone else has to do.

I do believe that Lance Armstrong is preparing for his 7th right about now.

Lord, I've been called out.

Both here and via email.

Well, I responded to you via email, goofy. Let me know.

ucchhhh...

Right now I am weighing whether the Guy Code demands I meet this stupid little hysterical prick.

Even though I have no desire to kick his ass at all... and certainly no desire to have my own ass kicked.

Fucking idiotic. Par for the course, though.

John Cole, On October 24, 2003, renowned forensic pathologist Dr. Michael Baden was interviewed by Greta van Susteren on Fox News. He disclosed that with low potassium and no elevated enzymes, it would be extremely rare for a young woman to collapse as Terri did from a heart attack. When asked what the bone injuries suggest to him, Dr. Baden replied, “Some kind of trauma. The trauma can be from a fall, or the trauma can be from some kind of beating that she obtained from somebody somewhere. It’s something that should have been investigated in 1991 when these findings were found.”

Dr Michael Baden

JimBob:

How dare you bring into this discussion a man of such high integrity and intelligence as Dr. Baden, when we're up here in the swamp having a good old fashioned pissing match.

But soberly, thanks for the link. I love the guy and remember the interview.

Just so everyone know. Ace wimped out.

"I don't want to meet you" - Ace

Exactly as I suspected.

"You want tolerance and acceptance. Then work for it. Just like everyone else has to do." - KKKTrio

I don't wnat your acceptance KKKTrio. Sorry - it's just not that important to me.

What I would like is to have a normal discussion without the fact that I'm gay being pulled into it.

Geez - Like people would tolerate it if everytime a black person spoke about Social Security, we started calling him "nigger". Or everytime a Jewish person talked about Medicare reform, we started calling him a "kike".

But it's perfect acceptable to start making gay jokes and calling people "fags" when Andrew Sullivan's name is mentioned. And not just jokes that are targeted at Sullivan or myself, but jokes that are targeted at the entire gay community.

And god forbid I point out this bigotry - then the gay jokes really come flying.

Wow, DL, you've really proven...something...what? I don't know.

You've proven you can make an ass of yourself. I guess that's pretty good.

You've proven that you can make overt challenges to someone, and that person's declined (if we take your word for it).

But then you make a nice little lack-of-logic leap that says that the person didn't accept your challenge because he's a wimp. How do you know that? Are you a mind reader?

What if it wouldn't be prudent to accept your challenge on your terms? Wouldn't it be rational to deny the challenge, and still leave it up to that person to have their character be judged by others and not you? I'll answer that for you. Yes, it would.

About 100 years ago, this could lead to something stupid, like a duel. Today, such things happen too.

You've slandered the honor of the host of this site. He has not. He has called you things that are open for all to judge the veracity thereof. In this challenge of yours, you have denied us the same opportunity.

"Ace wimped out."
- Downtown Lad

Who the hell do you imagine would want to meet you for so much as a nanosecond? I've never seen such a whiny, self-impressed, paranoid fantasist and poseur in my life... wait, yes I have. Andrew Sullivan.

Oh, I'm sure it's a coincidence, a coincidence that has nothing at all to do with your shared obsession with sexual identity politics or your indignant martyr complexes. Wouldn't want you threatening to beat me up too, big boy.

Pfft. Almost enough to make me wonder if there isn't something to be said for bigotry after all.

DL:

You've not addressed one single thing I said in my post. You just snipped a little piece out and responded to it, out of context.

You have argued quite strongly that you want acceptance during the gay marriage post. That's why I made that statement.

Asshole

Megan - Didn't you know that Larry Summers said that women should keep quiet because they have little minds?

Wow, a troll that defies Pseudarford-style parody. Amazing.

KCTrio - So you actually want to debate the issues now?

Fine - I will take you on your word. Now please refrain from gay bashing and I'll answer your questions. Otherwise, I'll have to challenge you to a duel as well.

Slinging statistics around don't cut it and you know it. Of course I am quite aware of the thousands of homosexuals that were killed by the Nazis. They were sort of no nonsense about their nonsensical death machine. I also seem to remember Gypsies got quiite the nasty deal by them. As did Slavs, Poles and countless others. Many died for being of mixed blood.

You implied in your prior post that gays have not suffered. I threw out the fact that gays were massacred by Nazis to prove a point. Gays have been prosecuted for millenia, and have been put to death, simply for being gay, in this very country. Are you even aware that Alan Turing, the greatest computer scientiest ever, who helped to defeat the Nazis, was rewarded by England by being tortured because he was gay? He was driven to suicide. Google it. You might learn something.

You'll notice I posted some research regarding the gerbal stuffing hoax being an Urban Legend. I agreed with you. That at the very least demonstrates my ability to be open minded about things that you say. I am not asking for a thank you, but please do not make blanket statements about me simply because I disagre with you on a given issue.

The blanket statement that I was making is that you were quite clueless about how gays have suffered in this country. I would easily posit that it is easier to be black in this country than to be gay. Blacks are certainly discriminated against, but at least they have their own families as a support system. Many gay people are thrown onto the street by their families, and entirely rejected by them. You might say that is rare, and I will say that you wrong. I have quite a few gay friends that were thrown out of the house, forced into "therapy" to cure their gayness, etc. All as teenagers. I myself have had my family stop speaking to me, because I was gay, which I've written about on my blog:

http://downtownlad.blogspot.com/2004/10/gay-and-conservative-oxymoron.html

Regarding your feeling part of a discriminated minority, I believe there is truth to that. And on a personal level, I have no idea what your experiences have been. If they have been horrid, then my heart feels pain for that. But to extrapolate your own burdens and throw them in the face of others is not really a decent way to behave.

I don't feel like I'm part of a discriminated minority. People have the right to hate gay people, and I'm ok with that. I deal with that all the time. What I'm sick of dealing with are people who judge my actions and beliefs on the fact that I'm gay. Why can't Andrew Sullivan's beliefs on the war be discussed without his sexuality being brought into the equation? His gayness has nothing to do with the war. The fact that he's gay didn't prevent him from endorsing Bush in 2000, even though he knew Bush was against gay marriage then. It's like the people who can't discuss Clarence Thomas's opinions without bringing up the fact that he's black. It's a totally racist attitude.

Thus, no matter what your personal pain has been, and collectively the discrimination of your group, you must understand that there are groups on this earth that have been suffering longer and harder than your group. Does that make your group's suffering acceptable? Of course not, but do not equate the black man's struggle for acceptance in our country to that of yours. This is not even comparable. The magnitude of the horror is important in the big picture.
I disagree. I'd choose to be black over being gay any day of the week. It would be a much easier life.

You want tolerance and acceptance. Then work for it. Just like everyone else has to do.

I don't want your tolerance and acceptance. The fact that I'm gay is completely irrelevant to any topic. Many straight people would be just as offended by the gay bashing on this thread as I am.

Wow, DL, you've lowered yourself even more than I though you were capable of.

She spoke her mind, and that's the best you've got? An insult? To a woman with brains and guts that outrank yours by a mile?

How dare you sir.

DL:

Show me where in this thread I gay-bashed? Quote it.

Show me where I denied, anywhere, that there wasn't any suffering of gays. Quote it. Implied or stated overtly.

You took one post. Not all of them.

For you to deny that you want tolerance and acceptance is presposterous. You may not want it by me as a single individual, but the fact that you want gay marriage implies that you want the collective tolerance of the majority. That's what I said and implied. Why are you lugging into this discussion that I said or implied that you wanted my personal acceptance? I did no such thing.

I've debated you from the beginning. You just haven't read it.

Sorry - Never much cared for females.

And DL, please do not threaten violence to me or anyone else. Metaphorically or literally, it just ain't right, no matter how high your passions may be.

I tend to run away from violence. Threaten my family, that'd be another story.

"Show me where I denied, anywhere, that there wasn't any suffering of gays. Quote it. Implied or stated overtly." - KCTrio

Um OK - If you insist. Here ya go.

"Unless you can give me a list of martyrs like Dred Scott, Homer Plessy, Rosa Park, etc., your attempt to equate the gay rights struggle with those that history has hammered the living shit out of such as American people of color, Catholics, Jews, Irish, disabled, Native Americans or any other group, then spare me." - KcTrio

The Gay Bashing was done by others on this thread.

Violence? You mean the duel joke. Maybe you need a sense of humor.

By the way - Harvey Milk is more of a martyr than Dred Scott, Rosa Parks, etc., any day of the week.

DL

Why would ACE want to meet with some homo-crazy/ internet lilly flower?

Why would ACE want to meet with some homo-crazy/ internet lilly flower? HundredPercenter

Gay Bashing? What Gay bashing? I don't see no gay bashing?

I see on HundredPercenter's blog, that he doesn't believe in Evolution.

Enough said.

DL:

Nice editing job. You think you can get away with that on a thread? Here's my entire post from which you took one paragraph:

Unless you can give me a list of martyrs like Dred Scott, Homer Plessy, Rosa Park, etc., your attempt to equate the gay rights struggle with those that history has hammered the living shit out of such as American people of color, Catholics, Jews, Irish, disabled, Native Americans or any other group, then spare me.

Notice the words "gay rights struggle." Those imply that I am admitting that gay people are struggling. A struggle usually involves pain or suffering. I merely stated that the gay rights struggle is not nearly as long and viscious as the others that I iterated. I still stand by that statement. I did not overtly nor via implication aver there has been no suffering or struggle. I did just the opposite.

You argue so vehemently that gay people's viewpoints should not be typified by their sexual proclivities, yet you still demand to be recognized as a member of a group that deserves special treatment. This seems to be a paradox. Perhaps it is not. But on the surface, it sure does seem that way.

This implies an inidividuality and collective paradox which you have demonstrated. No personal attacks here.

We are all born in this life with burdens, some are blessed with few, most are cursed with many. Those who succeed do so not because of their burdens, but despite them. If you wish for an example of such a being, think Lance Armstrong.

This restates that you personally have, in fact, born burdens, and also implies that gay people in general bear burdens.

If you wish to demonstrate where I've denied gay people have suffered in this thread, I invite you to do so.

I have a sense of humor. I just don't take too kindly to people that whine and then threaten others.

I did use the word "metaphorically."

If that was a joke, then I guess you need to stick to your day job.

I'm a reasonable guy KCTrio, despite what others might say.

If that's truly what you meant, then I apologize, as I misunderstood the meaning of your post.

But unless you're gay, I doubt you can truly understand how much gay people have suffered.

I've talked about my own coming out experience:

http://downtownlad.blogspot.com/2004/10/gay-and-conservative-oxymoron.html

And perhaps this suicide note might give you some insight as well (from Kipesquire's site)

Dear Family and Friends,

I'm sorry it had to end this way but it was my fate. I couldn't handle life anymore. You see, the reason I ran away before to commit suicide is the same reason I did again. I'm gay. I never wanted to be and I always wished it would change, but it didn't. I wanted to live a normal life but God created me this way for some reason and there was nothing I could do to change it. I was born this way, believe me I would not choose this way of life for I know how hard and unaccepted it is. I'm painfully sorry you all had to deal with this but I couldn't deal with it. This way I could live a peaceful afterlife instead of a life of fear, agony, and manic depressiveness. Please realize I did not want to hurt anyone I just wanted to end my own pain. I love you all dearly and will someday see you all again hopefully with your understanding hearts and souls. I just hope God will bring me to heaven.

Love always and eternally, Bruce

DL:

I'm fine with your appology. Not needed. Just an acceptance that you may have misinterpreted my statement is just dandy.

As to your own struggle, I will sternly disagree that I cannot imagine what it's like to walk in your shoes. That's pure fallacy. First, you don't know what burdens I bear, either. So where does that get us?

While it is a given that no one really knows the exact personal experiences one may have, one can imagine what such pain is like, or joy for that matter.

The way one does such things can be numerous. Think of the artist British Romantic painter JMW Turner. He did a painting of a ship in storm at sea. Before he did so, he tied himself to a tree during a rather violent storm. That gave him a pretty good feel for the painting he was intending to render. Did he need to do this? Some probably thought he was crazy. But for him, that's the path he chose.

I am not a man of color, but I've tried to understand the black man's struggle in the US. To do this, I have chosen many routes. I've read much of the writings of people that lead the struggle, I've spoken to people about it, learned the history of Negro Spirituals (some of the most beautiful music ever created), and interviewed a member of the Tuskegee Airmen for 4 hours and donated the tape to a Web site that archives such things. I also donate money to the Fisk Jubilee singers, and have seen their performances at least a dozen times. And I've also met the choir director.

So, I'm not black, but I have learned much about the black man's struggle in America. I may not know what it is like to be black, but I bet I have a pretty good feeling for their history of pain and suffering.

I don't know your history personally or as a member of a culture. I just haven't walked that road. If life presents me with the opportunity or desire to do so, then I will.

Posting a suicide note from a gay person does nothing to accomplish such a task. It only reflects what is in that person's soul. I could post a suicide note from someone suffering from terminal cancer and accomplish the same thing. You'd learn that person's suffering.

I am absolutely sure that gay people have suffered through history. But so have Catholics, Irish, Scotts, Jews, American blacks, American Indians, German Americans, Japanese Americans, etc. The magnitude of those groups are tremendously high. Are you saying that your group has suffered an equivalent sort of pain, on as massive a scale? If so, show me the numbers, and I'll try and learn.

I can only go off of my conversations with others. Growing up Jewish, I considered it to be a non-event, even beneficial. I never really encountered anti-semitism in my entire life, although I know it's out there.

Growing up gay though, I know that it was something I was tormented over for about 17 years. I came close to suicide several times, and trust me, I'm not one to kill myself. How many people commit suicide because they are black or because they are Jewish? Not many I bet.

Younger gays don't have to suffer nearly as much, because their generation gets it. Hopefully, in 100 years, it'll be no big deal to be gay.

I've also spoken to gay black people, who tell me that it's much easier to be black than to be gay. Do they speak for everyone? No - of course not. But I respect their opinion.

So to answer your question - I think gays have suffered more than any other group in this country once you take their size into account, except for maybe blacks and Native Americans. Irish people suffered in this country more than gays? Give me a break. Germans? Jewish? Cmon, give me a break.

Why? Because there were signs in Boston that said "Irish need not apply" 100 years ago.

Um - the largest employer in this country currently STILL has a sign that says "Gays need not apply" if you haven't noticed....

It wasn't even legal to be in all of this country until two years ago. Are you telling me that gay people didn't suffer when the sodomy laws were enforced?

Do you realize that gay people represent 1 in 3 of all teen suicides? There must be an awful lot of suffereing going on inside those heads for that to be happening.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/sui_fact.htm

Also, I think it is worth mentioning AIDS, which the gay community was devastated by. I'm sure many on this board will say "Good Riddance. They deserved it" to the gay people that died of AIDS. But for gay people that did not have AIDS, it was still a great hardship watching so much of your community get wiped out.

If you want to get a sense of what that was like (I didn't live through it), I recommend Sullivan's essay on this.

http://www.andrewsullivan.com/homosexuality.php?artnum=19901217

John -- Never have I called you an "enemy." I wouldn't even call Sullivan an enemy. But let me ask you, since you say you have no plans to leave the Republican Party: why not? I don't want you to leave and I'm certainly not asking you to leave (as though I would have the right) but I do recall seeing an epitaph for conservatism on your site recently and it made me wonder why you'd bother hanging around a corpse. If Terri Schiavo is sufficiently "dead" to warrant being put down, why isn't conservatism?

Or was the epitaph perhaps an instance of you being just a bit, well, hysterical?

I don't disagree with the points you made above, except possibly as regards the statute Congress passed. I myself have defended Michael Schiavo here on Ace's site. And yet, because I have doubts about what Terri Schiavo actually intended (and yes, one can harbor such doubts even when they conflict with the outcome of a fact-finding process; see Simpson, Orenthal James) and because, in such cases, I think we should err on the side of life, I'm told by you that I'm a "sick bastard." Frankly, John, after reading your posts about the supposedly sheer, utter, total meaninglessness of life in PVS, I wonder what you'd think should be done with Schiavo even if she had stated that she wanted to live under such circumstances.

By the way, I'm an atheist. I want to mention that because I've gleaned from your blog that if a religious fundamentalist is on my side of an issue, even if he got there by a completely different process of reasoning than I did, it's conclusive proof that I've taken the wrong side and should immediately change course. I.e., "if Randall Terry is for it, I must be against it." I wonder where else that sort of logic would lead us.

In closing, let me reiterate that I agree with you that the disrespect for the rule of law being shown here by some right-wingers is disgusting. But not all of us are urging Jeb to send in the Florida State Patrol SWAT team to break Terri Schiavo out of the hospice. It'd be nice if you made that distinction in writing about this, because if you have made it, I've missed it.

DL:

You are misconstruing individual suffering with collective suffering.

Irish suffering in the US:
Try being murdered by the hundreds at a shot. Barred from any but the lowest rung of the American economic ladder for the first 200 years of this continent's settlement by Europeans.

Scotts:
Same as above but worse.

Cuban Americans:
Come down to Florida some time. I can introduce you to people that as recently as 40 years ago were barred from the same restaurants and beaches as blacks. Oh, and murdered, hung and beaten to near death throughout the last 100 years.

Catholics:
History of persecution in this country unrivaled by any other, because of their numbers. My God how you underestimate the preponderance of suffering.

Japanese Americans:
In spite of the lovely Ms. Malkin's opinion on this, think internment camps.

German Americans:
Met anyone old enough to be German and an American citizen during WWII? Why don't you try that. Also barred from most opportunities in the populated areas of the colonies. They settled the wilderness, just like the Scotts and Irish did.

American Jews:
Same as Irish, Catholics, Scotts, Germans, but more intense.

Gay:
You can hide this. You cannot hide from being a Cuban, Irish, Scottish, Jewish, German, Black, Catholic or anything else. This can give you cover from collective persecution. Not iron-clad, but cover.

Personal persecution: Yes, for many, and perhaps most gays, it must be very high. But as a group, gays are not comparable to the aforementioned.

DL:

As to AIDS, that was and is a rather horrific problem, indeed. And I would never state or suggest that people deserve such things. I've lost friends to the desease. And watched them suffer.

Guess what group that has given more than any other in this country, or the world for that matter, to alleviate those suffering from the disease? Catholic Charities.

But that disease is not just a gay disease, it is a rather menacing virus that has no mind who it chooses. I seem to see that in Africa, entire generations of children are living without parents. So while I believe that the gay community suffered horrifically due to the disease, I believe you do a disservice to those that have suffered from the disease who are not gay if you classify it as a gay disease.

It's a societal plague. The magnitude of suffering from the disease by gay people is large, no doubt. But let me ask you a question: If one does engage in unsafe behavior, knowingly, is there a modicum of culpability? I answer with a duality. The sufferer needs love. But the disease might have been avoided.

I am a smoker. That makes me likely to die from lung cancer. My family tells me constantly to stop. But when I'm on my death bed, they won't be saying "you should have listened." I'll probably be saying that.

On this one, I'll accept your group's collective suffering as huge.

But the original discussion dealt with supression of rights and bigotry. AIDS is not directly (though it is tangentally) correlative and relevant to the issue at hand.

I'm surprised that ace didn't want to meet you, DL. I mean, I'll bet you've got big strong hands from all that typing. And I'll bet you mix a mean appletini!

DL:

Again, notice the words personal suffering and collective suffering.

I wouldn't choose anything but being me. That's difficult enough.

But I am rather horrified by your comment about Nazi concentration camps. The trick is that those in those camps didn't know whether they would die. Sort of like the Abraham/Isaac story. Doesn't make any sense unless you know the outcome.

I think that much of what you are talking about could be remedied by finding joy in living, not looking for persecution and internalizing it as your own.

I don't buy the Catholic Charities stuff. The Catholics Church take great joy in gays getting AIDS in dying. That's the only time that they give them any respect. But god forbid a gay person dies without getting AIDS. The Catholic Church won't even give you a funeral then...

I fail to understand how any self-respecting gay person can choose to be a Catholic. It's mind boggling to me.

But do gay people have to take responsibility for having AIDS? Of course. Did they choose to live a promiscuous lifestyle and sleep around, then of course they are at fault. But what if a gay person is in a monogomous relationship and his partner cheats on him. Is he at fault then too? Yeah - I guess because he didn't use a condom, but there are degrees of blame, don't you think?

Society - which encourages gay promiscuity by making gay marriage illegal - and encouraging gay people to stay in the closet and thus have unsafe sex - by failing to teach gay kids about safe sex, etc. - aren't they to blame too?

If society actually encouraged gay people to be monogomous and settle down, as they do for straight people, the rate of AIDS in this country would plummet. Unfortunately, they don't.

Dowtown Lad has been banned. Further correspondence with him will be limited to emails.

Until I start bouncing those to the spambox, too.

Anyway.... here's the other thing that can get you banned: a series of childish call-outs and emails threatening "You messed with the wrong faggot."

More than 20% of this country is Catholic, and I am one of them. How dare you sir, classify more than 70 million Americans at taking joy in seeing gay people catching AIDS. There are individuals that are not Catholic that harbor such beliefs as you have mentioned. Many are atheists. Do not castigate what you wish others not to do to you. By stating such things, you do nothing but drag down the cause.

If I were gay, I probably wouldn't join the Catholic Church, or an Evangelical church. But then again, I just might. I don't know, since I'm not gay. It's that personal thing I keep mentioning.

I have a question for you, if you would be so kind as to answer this one.

Do you really think gay men, if they are promiscuous as you have mentioned (I didn't make the accusation, you did), do you really think allowing gay marriage would blunt that? Just curious. If such behavior is common, then why would a societal blessing and acceptance of marriage spur promiscuous people to become chaste to all others but their betrothed? I'm really curious about this one.

Update:

After this little hypersensitive twat has been bascially calling me out to fight him all day, I told him, "If you want to come and find me, and you do find me, you're gonna have fuckin' problems on your hands."

Reply?:

"Is that a threat? Perhaps the police would be interested in that if it is?"

Good riddance.

Excellent!

You should have told him, "Don't make a fuckin' maniac outta me!"

Dogstar:

I think that's what I should have said. Because he did, in a way.

As some have stated, I type 175 words per minute or something. You have the gift of brevity. I need some help in that area.

Gee Allah,

At least John only insulted you in an ad hominem. He felt compelled to comment on the sophistry on my site.

Ouch.

Jesus Christ, I should never have left this thread alone. If I had to make one recommendation to the now-departed DL, it would be to get a job at the Psychic Friends Network. Since he has such superior perception to the rest of us (to hell with what Catholic Charities DID, he knows what they THOUGHT in their shrivelled little crucifix-wearing hearts) and since he spotted us all for violent homophobes without our being aware of it ourselves, he ought to clean up there.

You banned Downtown Lad?

Who is gonna give us the red carpet updates during the Academy Awards now????

You know Ace, this is just the kind of thing that will keep you from getting invited to the loft....

Yep, Sonetka, it was quite the pleasure.

One of my favorite was him saying that he'd rather be a Jew in a concentration camp if he knew ahead of time that he wouldn't die than being gay. That one blew my mind.

Then questioning that Irish folks in our nation's history never suffered more than being banned from bars and such.

Then the questioning of the motives of Catholic Charities.

Quite the lover of his fellow human beings, wouldn't you say?

I lost track of the fireworks about 6 hours ago. I just kept hanging on and posted rebuttals.

I do feel sorry for the guy; it must be tough seeing only bad motives in everything others do.

About time, Ace. My opinion, he was living on borrowed from the first thread he started BSing in.

Say, any part of the Guy Code that keeps you from agreeing to a fight but settling for a hand of poker and then going out for drinks? 'Cause if not, I want a piece of you, boy!

...though I'm having trouble coming up with a point of contention. Um, criticize an aspect of Executive Decision or Alien Resurrection or something and I'll see what I can do.

BTW has anyone else been getting email from Tim S? I got one and deleted it before realizing who it was from.

I'm crestfallen. I didn't get an e-mail from Tim S. What did I do wrong? Why didn't I get blessed.

I'll have to wait for the next round with the guy, and give him something worthy of an e-mail.

Sonetka: You must have special powers.

If anyone actually gives a shit, here's the painting by Joseph Mallord William Turner entitled "Snow Storm - Steam-Boat off a Harbour's Mouth."

Nice to see if you're ever at the Tate Gallery in London.

thanks Ace for banning DL.
Ding Dong the Witch is dead

the next time a shrill homo like DL starts equating everyone to Hitler, you might like to educate him on homos and the Nazis:

http://www.leaderu.com/jhs/lively.html

While some homosexuals were interned in Nazi work camps, the role of homosexuals in Nazi history cannot be accurately represented solely by a pink triangle. Our review of more than 200 history texts written since the 1930s suggests that a pink swastika is equally representative, if not more so. For, ironically, while many homosexuals were persecuted by the Nazi party, there is no doubt that the Nazi party itself had many homosexuals within its own ranks, even among its highest leadership.

------------
More of the extensive reality of homosexuals that pro-homosexuals love to erase from public knowledge. Real interesting data. The sad part is that liberal academics/media will cover up history such as this to indocrinate students and society with their push-button, ignorant, simplist pro-homosexual views.