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January 09, 2005
Penn State University Researching "Patriot Missile For Torpedoes"Engineers from Penn State University's Applied Research Laboratory and the U.S. Naval Undersea Warfare Center prepare the anti-torpedo torpedo prototype for sea trials in 2000 at a test range off the coast of Keyport, Wash. The second generation prototype is undergoing land-based testing and will face another set of sea trials in 2006. But for every advance in defense there's an advance in offense, and the offense generally has the advantage. Whether this is true or simply Russian disinformation I of course can't say, but this 2001 Newsmax article claims that the Russians have created a "supersonic" torpedo-- or, if not quite supersonic in water (where sound travels 4.5 times as fast as in the air), then at least incredibly fast: Russia has developed new submarine-launched torpedos that travel at incredible speeds perhaps as fast as the speed of sound underwater. Scientific American reports in its May edition that these supersophisticated weapons have been linked to the sinking of the Russian submarine Kursk last August, and even to the arrest and imprisonment of Edmond Pope. Obviously it will be more difficult to track a torpedo's sound signature if the torpedo is travelling faster, or nearly as fast, as the speed of sound. And hitting such a fast-mover is bound to be a problem as well. More: Dave from Garfield Ridge has an interesting analysis of the "supersonic torpedo" -- including its manifold liabilities -- in the first comment below. posted by Ace at 02:48 PM
CommentsThe Shkval's strength is also its weakness. It travels so fast that it can't be wire-guided, and with such noise (cavitation=bad) that it can't independently seek out targets via even active sonar. This wasn't an issue with the first generation of Shkval, as they were nuclear armed. Close enough for horseshoes was good enough for that weapon. The problem arises with the conventional version. The target has to be detected and plotted to a reasonable location, and the rocket has to be trusted to intercept the right spot. Against other submarines maneuvering in three-dimensions, even at the speeds the Shkval swims that's a pretty tall order unless you're doing a snapshot in a knife-fight. However, against big surface targets (think American carriers; the Chinese do), the Shkval works just fine (on paper at least). Like an updated version of unguided World War I & II era torpedoes. The few things I've read in the open press (Janes, etc.) state that the countermeasures against this Shkval involve rapid detection (easy, as soon as the rockets kick in) followed by rapid unpredictable maneuver. The one active countermeasure I've seen considered involves firing a form of rocket mortars into the water to create a debris field in the path of the rocket-- at that speed, anything solid the rocket hits is liable to knock it off course, or destroy/damage it. Trouble there is that it's a big 3-dimensional ocean. The Shkval and similar weapons are not something to sleep easy about, but they're not miracle weapons either (if they were, we'd have fielded something like it-- but our threats are other submarines, not carrier battlegroups. The technology doesn't fit, at least not until we can create a supercavitating cloak for an entire submarine-- offering one helluva turbo boost in combat). Cheers, Posted by: Dave at Garfield Ridge on January 9, 2005 03:11 PM
It's hard to post anything after reading something by someone who knows what they're talking about. Way to kill the thread, Dave. Posted by: Sobek on January 9, 2005 07:51 PM
Yeah, I was going to say they probably go to fast to be guided with precision, but noooooo, Dave had to go and totally blanket the entire area with excellent analysis. Thanks a lot, Dave. Posted by: rdbrewer on January 9, 2005 09:10 PM
I suddenly remember the wisdom of Bluto Blutarsky after he smashed the hippie's guitar: "Sorry." Cheers, Posted by: Dave at Garfield Ridge on January 10, 2005 12:02 AM
Actually, the US has already done work on it. In 1997, the Naval Undersea Warfare Center in Newport, Rhode Island launched one that goes some 5000+ ft per second, according to here: http://www.stratmag.com/issueMay-15/page02.htm although googling for " 'naval undersea warfare center' supercavitating torpedo" didn't turn up that many other interesting hits. It might be that it's really a bullet (i.e. speed reached/maintained via gun but otherwise no internal propulsion) rather than a torpedo (i.e. speed reached/maintained by the projectile as well such as with an internal rocket like the Shkval), as I'm misdefining those terms. Of course, far as I know, the US hasn't deployed any operationally, so apparently the Russians were quicker on the ball than us. One link that talked about it at some depth was: http://www.diodon349.com/Kursk-Memorial/Warpdrive_underwater.htm which, interestingly enough, also credits the Applied Research Laboratory at Pennsylvania State University for supercavitation work. Too bad for Harvard. As a complete topic drift (but slightly related because of cavitation!), my fluid mechanics class was taught by Dr. Chris Brennen, who does a lot of cavitation work (http://www.its.caltech.edu/~brennen/resume/papers.htm), so he described how depth charges work in detail. Essentially, the explosion produces a cavitated bubble, which quickly collapses, but because of the mechanics of the collapse, it produces a jet of water which automatically seeks out any solids nearby to shoot itself toward -- and fast. So this jet of water is actually the deadly part, not necessarily the explosion that produced it. This is also why underwater propellers "age" pretty quickly, because when they're run at higher speeds, the water cavitates around them, thus producing thousands of tiny bubbles that collapse into thousands of tiny jets of water that constantly ping the propellers and dent them. Pretty interesting stuff, but don't know if it's as interesting as supercavitating torpedoes, or Harvard banning protective research (I mean, the US applications are more toward using supercavitating bullets to shoot underwater mines safely from the air, right? although it easily has offensive capabilities as well), so sorry if you want your minute of reading this paragraph back. I wanted to put something more interesting but googling "how depth charges work" only returned a single hit about Pokemon. Posted by: Vanshalar on January 12, 2005 09:18 AM
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Shane Gillis tells a mildly amusing joke; the feminazis and their gay best friends freak out! [CBD]
Our very own "Weasel" has won the Nobel Prize For Physics:
A Rigorous Investigation into the Quasi-Static Equilibration of Shoulder-Fired Ballistic Platforms: Rear-Bag-Mediated Suppression of Angular Perturbations and Its Implications for Sub-MOA Precision.[CBD]
CAIR Wrote It. San Diego Passed It, 8 to 0 .
"City records show CAIR drafted the definition of "Islamophobia" that San Diego adopted" [CBD]
Christian Toto Roasts Digger: "We have an A-list star (Tom Cruise) stretching his talents in ways we haven't seen in some time. The story has something to say about the world (Climate Change) and human nature in all its complexities." Sounds...boring! [CBD]
Nearly one thousand Roman silver denari found in woods near Cologne, Germany, probably deliberately buried in 125 AD
It's about seven pounds of ancient silver. Alas, it's not an artifact of the massacre of the XIXth Legion at Teutonburg Forest, which is about a hundred and fifthy miles away.
Trump 'Surprised' UK Freed Airbase Plot Suspects
Why? They are honored guests of the UK? [CBD]
Hegseth to cut 20% of admirals, generals in Pentagon shake-up It's a start! [CBD]
If you care, the new end credit scenes added to the Avengers: Endgame re-release have leaked. Watch 'em fast before they're deleted.
This post has a written summary of the scenes.
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Somebody should write a book about the greatest drinking stories of O'Toole, Burton, Harris, and Caine. One of my faves was Richard Harris went on a six week bender in the South of France without telling wifey. Upon return, she's screaming, and he simply replied "why didn't you pay the ransom"? Recent Comments
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