And when Chris Matthews thinks something is a low blow...

Eh, I don't have the heart to finish that sentence, since 1) I doubt Chris thinks much at all, and 2) On the odd occasion that he does, I certainly don't give a shit.

Does anyone else find it funny that Pat Buchanan is commenting on this?

Mort Kondracke was spitting nails over this. He was tougher on Kerry than Fred or Bill!

The outrage on this site over a simple statement by Kerry which was simply THE TRUTH speaks volumes about what you all really think about the question of homosexuality.

It shouldn't be mentioned, right?

What I think you are really worried about is how the hateful base of a hateful party will react the more they ponder the fact that the President and Vice President (who many in that base believe were chosen by God) are unwilling publicly to condemn a daughter who by their beliefs is condemned to hell.

The demeaning language being used by the proprietor and accolytes (cock-sucker, dyke, etc...) also speaks volumes.

. . . and your momma eats kitty litter!

Ginsu,

Suck my cock.

Yours,

Ace

Ginsu:
When I saw Kerry mention this I put my hand to my head and said "No, no,no, you dumbass" and I want Kerry to lose. The issue is not homosexuality, the issue is you never bring family into it. Even the mob had a rule about it.

And if you think the republicans have been more hateful than the dems your dreaming, completely frigging loopy. Hail the chimperorBushHitler!

Biggest Debate Gaff?

Kerry: “Under Our Courts, er, that is, constitution!” Bigger gaff than cheap shot at Cheny's daughter/gay vote bait!

Schieffer asked Bush what he’d like to do on Roe v. Wade, and, in turn Kerry responded with:

“I'll answer it straight to America. I'm not going to appoint a judge to the Court who's going to undo a constitutional right, whether it's the First Amendment, or the Fifth Amendment, or some other right that's given under our courts today — under the Constitution. And I believe that the right of choice is a constitutional right.” (followed with flustered comments, insecurity, & maybe this led him to gay vote bait comment)

Straight answer? Case closed on the flip-flop wearing wind-suffer.

His Freudian slip states his overall position quite clearly – it’s the Courts that count over the Constitution! ……the UN over the US Congress, …Definition of Marriage,Discrimination/affirmative action…..Higher taxes, bigger Gov, & Big Gov spending on: Big Gov managed healthcare (Canada here we come!), higher minimum wage (= less entry jobs, you college students), Social Security plan that will be “fixed” with lower payments, and extended age range qualification, etc..

So, who’s surprised? This was an unforced error! The cliff is straight ahead, John, more speed, please!

Now, get ready for more Nuanced spin from MSM, and the usual suspects.

Let us vote accordingly, if Our Courts ever become Kerry’s courts, we’ll all be living in a new and strange land,….. Not that of our Founding Fathers! They didn't bait gay, or bait other voters, like us, they were living under attack with their necks on the line, and stayed on focus of what's important to survice, first!

Its your vote, so….. cast it very wisely!

Now go Get out an informed vote.

(Big Bush Win, tonight!)

Let’s Roll!

Baaah…

The Goat

Mort Kondracke is unhappy with the Kerry campaign for more than that. His wife recently passed away due to Parkinson's, so he was very offended by John Edwards' recent stem-cell comment.

I'm surprised Kerry didn't blame Bush for Christopher Reeve's death. "Had Bush promoted stem cell research, Chris would have walked out on stage to thank him."

What offends me the most about Kerry and Edwards bringing up the sexuality of Cheney's daughter is that it shows what they really think of me; that I'm a knuckle-dragging troglodyte who can be demagogued via my assumed homophobia just like all the other hicks and rubes they can demagogue over outsourcing, tax cuts for the rich, and promising free health care and miracle cures if you vote for Kerry.

It's profoundly condescending. Not to mention very ugly.

As a gay man, I was pretty annoyed when Edwards pulled the Mary Cheney rabbit out of the hat during the vice-presidential debate. It was low.

When Kerry did it tonight, I exploded in front of my liberal friends. "This is the motherfucker you fucktards support!" How I keep my liberal friends is beyond me.

I'm seriously, seriously pissed about this. I'm even more pissed when my gay friends try to tell me how the Democratic Party cares for me and I "owe" them my vote, because the Republicans are such "homophobes" (hate that word). Well, I've been watching this election closely, and I have to say the Democrats are out gay-baiting the Republicans two to one. Does anyone think a Republican would get away with this shit? Fuck no.

I'm tired of it.

Well, Andrew Sullivan loves gay marriage more than cock itself. There's no philosophy or ideology he won't bend, twist, mangle, and ass-fuck into oblivion in subservience to getting what he wants.

My definition of gay-baiting works with a simple test: If a Republican did it, would the gay community spontaneously combust? It's a low bar to be certain, but it's functional.

The problem with this is that what Kerry and Edwards are doing is simply offensive. Could you imagine if Bush had adopted an African-American child and Kerry critiqued Bush's opposition to affirmative action by bringing it up? And the only way the public knew of or related to this child is that that's "the black one"? Most people know nothing about Mary Cheney aside from the fact that's she's "the gay one." To simplistically reduce someone to their sexual orientation is deeply wrong. I can't imagine a single gay person alive who would like being referred to as "the gay daughter" over and over again in front of tens of millions of Americans.

This is the worst thing the Dems have done for gay people in this election. There are other, smaller stories you rarely hear about. The story about Dems in Indiana passing out memos to people about Republicans talking to a local gay organization is what sparked my attention. And let's not forget the 2002 tactic in Montana where the Republican candidate used to be *gasp* a hair-dresser.

They pull this shit all the time, all across the country.

I've just read Sullivan's defense of Kerry's Mary Cheney remarks, and I don't think there's enough xanax and whiskey in the world to get me started on it. The man's unhinged.

Rob, tell me the truth-- are you really gay?

Well, Andrew Sullivan loves gay marriage more than cock itself. There's no philosophy or ideology he won't bend, twist, mangle, and ass-fuck into oblivion in subservience to getting what he wants.

Is that really kosher? I don't know. I know people within a group can say things that those outside the group aren't supposed to, but that seems like something a straight guy would say.

Admirable as Mary Cheney's reserve is, I do wish that just once she would break the rules just a tad and tell Kerry/Edwards to p*ss off. Maybe she could throw in a few buzzwords like "homophobia". That would throw them for a loop, since people like that tend to react to such buzzwords like Luke Skywalker reacting to Darth Vader's paternity announcement. "It can't be - THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE! NOOOOOOO!"

It would be a bit much to expect the news channels to *report* it, but the thought of how their faces would crumple at the sound of the Dread Accusation is amusing :).

Yes, I really am. I get that a lot. I'm a Sept. 11th conservative. Used to be a rabid, Left-wing, gay activist, all Republicans are evil type. Even wrote for XY magazine when I was younger, if you know what that is (probably not). Then the country was attacked, and my eyes were opened to what really mattered. When the Left said "America deserved it, we had it coming, why do they hate us?!" I was disgusted. 3,000 innocents never "have it coming."

After that, it was really hard to get all het up about people like Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell when Islamists enjoy beheading homosexuals like we enjoy Monday Night Football. And the more I read people like Andrew Sullivan, the angrier and angrier I get. I want gay marriage, but it can wait. The War on Terror is far more important. When that's over, then maybe I'll start worrying about marriage. Until then, I'll make do with a lawyer, some contracts, and a power of attorney. And believe me, given that my partner is English, I know how shafted gays are when it comes to things like immigration rights. I keenly feel the inequalities in the law. But, if I want to get married in Chicago, I should probably make sure that Chicago will actually still be there.

As for language, I don't know. I keep mainly straight male friends. When I came out, they'd say "He's such a fag," about someone, catch themselves, and then apologize profusely. I hate that. I don't want anyone to change how they talk around me. Say what you want to say and how you want to say it. I know what you mean. I take no offense. And when I'm around you, I'll do the same.

As for Sullivan, I'm just disgusted. When who he has sex with determines who he will endorse to fight the War on Terror, the war against the people who would happily kill people like us with no second thoughts, I get angry. Sexuality matters. But it doesn't matter so much that we have to cloud ourselves to the reality of the war we're fighting and who will win it for us.

I loathe gay activists who make their sexuality the centerpiece of their being. If only because it paints me in a bad light. People might think we're all like that, that our homosexuality determines everything about us, what we think, what we do, how we act. It doesn't. But people like Sullivan do us no favors with his behavior and obsession with gay issues.

I voted for Gore. I actually cried when Bush was announced the winner (yeah, I know). And then I grew up and saw what was really important for the future of the country. My narrow personal interests are a very, very distant second in importance to the threat facing us now.

Sorry for the length.

Sorry for the length.

Don't be sorry, Rob (I'm assuming that's you because the post wasn't signed, but it sounds like a respose to Ace's earlier question).

You know, I've been reading and hearing a lot of sentiments like this over the last few weeks. It seems like a lot of people have been speaking out and saying, "Look, since I'm black/gay/jewish/whatever the traditional constituency is, I've always voted Democrat, but we're at war, and we need to win." And I think that a lot of these folks have seen that the Dems aren't really serious about any of this.

Not too long ago, I met a veteran of the 442nd Regimental Combat Group--one of the Japanese-Americans who was part of the most decorated unit in WWII. They served in spite of the fact that their families had ben sent to the internment camps, and they did a damn good job. When we talked, he never even mentioned the internment--he was just proud of what he'd done for his country. He was an AMERICAN, and he was proud of it.

I bring this up because I think there are a lot of people (like that veteran and Rob and countless others) who are going to put identity politics aside because they see that we need to win this war. And I think a lot of people (see Roger L. Simon) who would vote for a Democrat who was serious about this war have seen that Bush is serious about winning, but that Kerry--and the Dem party as a whole--aren't.

Identity politics can wait until the people who want to kill you even if--especially if--you want to marry your same sex partner are dead or in prison.

To quote somebody I've gained some respect for, "Sorry for the length."

"sorry for the length"
Sean M.

Well said.

If it was meant to hurt Cheney with his base, Kerry's smarminess will probably backfire. With the exception of a few fringe nutcases (yeah, I'm looking at YOU, Alan Keyes), I imagine that religious conservatives admire the Cheneys' loyalty to their daughter more than otherwise. Family is family.

Long time reader, first time poster (how damned cliche'd is that?) Just wanted to give props to Rob for his views. I'm a gay Republican in NYC. It's just nice to know that people like you are out there. Thanks man.

- - Chad

chad:

I'm a gay Republican in NYC.

Wow! You must be really lonely or else never have a serious political conversation.

Ace: Your last point about Gephardt was a good one.
Linked.

By the way, you're BitsBlog of the week...

Paul, as a religious conservative who knows a lot of religious conservatives, I can tell you that the majority of them are not homophobic, they just are faithful to their religion. And yes, they put family over sexual orientation.

Also, Ginsu, the Protestant faiths believe in only one "litmus test" for getting into heaven, and sexual orientation is not it. Those who believe otherwise are extremists who are putting opinion over doctrine and are the vast minority. They are also the only ones who get any press coverage.

Thanks for your posts, Rob.

Dean... To say I'm lonely is an understatement. And my "serious political conversation" pretty much consists of people informing me I'm "self-loathing". Rumor has it that other gay Republicans exist in NYC, but as of yet, I have yet to come across any. I'm hard-pressed enough to find a straight one. It was actually easier coming out to my parents as gay than it is to come out in this town as a conservative. But that's the "tolerant, compassionate" left for you.

Thanks, Elisa. As a libertarian conservative who knows very few religious conservatives, I was going on a vague impression. I'm pleased to have the confirmation.

It must have taken a iron will for Ace to have limited his mention of Sullivan to one parenthetical remark in this post!

Sean- That's exactly it. I would have been inclined to vote for a pro-war democrat of the Joe Lieberman mold. The Left disgusted me after 9-11. I had hoped it was just the fringe. But Howard Dean's candidacy pushed people like me away from the Left. The Democratic Party's internalization of the rabidly anti-American Leftists sealed it. It led me to take a good, long look at conservativism, and the arguments just make more sense to me. I'm still liberal on some things, but I find myself agreeing with people like Ace or National Review about 80% of the time.

Elisa - That's good to hear. I know very little about religious conservatives, but I know enough not to believe what the media tells me. If I read one more article about how Bush is trying to bring about the End Times, I'll scream.

Chad - Ah, you've gotten the "self-loathing fag" comments from the tolerant people as well? I've gotten that a lot since I've come out as a Bush voter. You're right, though. I've gotten far more negative comments about voting for Bush than I ever did for being gay.