Totally O/T, here's one of the funnier things I've seen on the misbegotten Miers nomination.

It is possible that both those statements are true (Rove assured Bush he wasn't involved and Bush knew he was).

The hack's point is only a good one if you trust the new story. Is it more likely that Bush knew in 2003 and deliberately lied in 2004, or that in 2005 anonymous slimers are interested in smearing Bush?

Let's stick with facts. If this new story were true, any competent prosecutor would have asked Bush to testify before the grand jury. He hasn't. Ergo, I call bullshit on this one.

Also, the "Libby and Rove are in trouble" new story is full of those fun anonymous and unverifiable sources. So, basically, the NYT says, trust us. Uh huh. Trust you regarding unknown sources with unknown motivations about matters which are supposed to be secret?

Uh huh.

Fitzgerald is not Earle. Hopefully, he won't feel the need to reinvent laws to get some BS indictment. Its true that the only indictments to come out of this whole Grand Jury thing will be for perjury.

From the top: There is no underlying crime. Neither law the wishful lefties have cited comes close to being violated. Plame was not covert, her id was not being protected, and so on.

So who would perjure? Not any administration official. Rove and Libby and friends were probably advised from the start to tell no lies and that there was no crime. As a lawyer, I would be sure to inform them of that (and of their fifth amendment rights).

So, unless there is a desire to publicly embarrass themselves, there should be no charges against admin officials.

That leaves the wishful thinkers. Would a journalist lie to get Rove? Duh, they do that with every issue of NYT's and WashPost sold. Would they go to jail to do it? Who knows.

It comes down to the original Boy Who Cried Plame, Joe Wilson. He probably believes everything he says so much, that he would feel free to lie before a Grand Jury.

Notice that I base all my assumptions above on the same amount of ass-pulling as every "Cheney will resign" reporter has.

Is this story over yet?

C'mon folks. . . there's a war on.

Cheers,
Dave at Garfield Ridge

Every informed person has known since day one that there could never be indictments for outing, because Plame was not a "covert agent" covered by the law. So the MSM game now is to establish a list of Bush administration people who "got away with it on a technicality, just like Ollie North."

Probably the only indictments that could be brought would be for lying during the investigation, and all the evidence so far says it was only media people who lied. Fitzgerald isn't obligated to go there (because it wasn't part of his original mandate), so he probably won't because the MSM would crucify him if he did.

Bottom line MSM story will be "We all know the Bushies are guilty, but they're getting away with it, and this points out the need for tougher laws, close loopholes, while still protecting press freedom, etc."

There is no underlying crime. Neither law the wishful lefties have cited comes close to being violated.

Gingrich was charged with over 100 ethics violations and only ONE ended up sticking: the one where he couldn't PROVE he hadn't done anything wrong. In other words, he hadn't done anything wrong but he couldn't prove it...and yet he got pushed out.

That wasn't a criminal investigation per se, but when it comes to partisan hackery, even the appearance of impropriety can be used to the advantage in a BOGUS witch hunt. I won't be even the tiniest bit surprised if Fitz indicts over the "No crime was committed...but they tried to COVER THEIR HONESTY UP" clause.

As for the "contradictory" Bush statements: Gag, how desperate can they get? The info on those sites are all pasted together and out of context. SOP for liberals and I'm not going to worry about it until I see the WHOLE story, not bits n pieces.

Contradictory Bush statements?

Has someone released sealed grand jury testimony?

No?

Well, nevermind. I guess people are just making S*** up.

Of course, Making S Up is par for the course. I remember after the levee failed, lefties were talking about how Bush stopped levee funding. Why research your points when you can just mak things up? Is this first or second year level stuff at journalism school?

This is good, succinct article, if no one has seen it yet. The money quote:

If Karl Rove is a criminal, exactly what was the crime?

There is no crime, according to attorney Victoria Toensing, who drafted the legislation [the 1982 Intelligence Identities Act] in her role as chief counsel for the chairman of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence. She says that under the statute the "outed" agent must have operated outside the U.S. within the previous five years, and Plame had given up her role as a covert agent in favor of a desk job in Langley, Va., nine years before the Rove interview, according to New York Times columnist Nicholas Kristof.

It can't get any worse than this Miers farce.

Not to change the subject ever so slightly, but if the NYT is so concerned about outing agents and violating that particular law, why has no one called for an investigation of the NYT publishing the entire worldwide network of covert companies used by the CIA to transport people and goods? Seems to me they put a whole bunch more people in a whole lot more danger than K. Rove, L. Libby or anyone else in the last 70 years have. I'd also be interested in knowing how many people have died as a result of that exposure, although I'm sure there's no way to find out because that, in fact, would be highly classified.

Obviously, the brainiacs at the NYT knows far better than the people with the facts who's dangerous and who's not, and what the public (read: our sworn enemies) needs and deserves to know.

If they'd only come out and admit that Uncle Joe had the best system in the world, then they could go on to blame us capitalist pigs with the troubles he had. What a Utopia he could have had if we just hadn't kept screwing him up! And that had to be Bush's fault, too, as manipulated by Rove.

Hey, not even a hat tip to me for quoting from and linking to that same TPM post a couple days ago?

Those of you still fantasizing that no crime as committed:

The CIA referred the case to Justice, and convinced them a crime was committed. Apparently Plame was an NOC.

President Bush said a serious crime was committed. (gotta dig up that quote, but that's what he said).

Meanwhile, see how your free independent press works.

The article that mentions Bush ripping Karl a new one in 2003 referred to him ripping Karl for talking to the press about the whole thing, and in handling himself in an amateur fashion. The headline made it seem like he was lambasting him for the leak, but the rest of the story tells a different, er, story.

Hey, not even a hat tip to me for quoting from and linking to that same TPM post a couple days ago?

How about a foot to the ass instead? It's kind of the same thing, only more apropos to the crap you've been posting.

Tubino,

I don't read you. Sorry.

I leave you for my Dogs of War, like The Humungous from The Road Warrior does.

The person who drafted the law said it wasn't a crime, Tubby. QED.

Why would the folks CIA claim that a crime was committed, even if they knew that it wasn't.....hmm, could it be because at the time they were (are?) basically at war with the administration, and the whole Plame Game is just one front in that war (Michael Scheuler (sp?) is another). Even if it's ultimately shown that no crime was committed, more time was wasted and Bush's agenda was de-railed, meaning more job security for the CIA chairwarmers who haven't predicted ANY of the major events of the last 26 years (chose that number to include the Iranian revolution)

Oh and deFrank isn't just another putz with a keyboard. Josh Marshall gives a rundown on how this guy is WELL-PLACED in the old Repub circles.

Doesn't mean he's got the story right, but it definitely carries more weight with its claim to inside info on this WH.

But LOTS more has been done since that story broke at the beginning of the week...

"The person who drafted the law said it wasn't a crime, Tubby. QED."

The person who drafted the law was not privy to the CIA discussions with Justice, which were classified. She doesn't know Plame's status.

She's talking out of her ass. And she is a partisan hack to boot.

Bush said he thought it was a crime too.

Perjury and obstruction of justice are felonies too.

RTFM, tubbs.

Plame's status is pretty much open for the whole world to see. Novak called the CIA before his article. They did not take affirmative steps to hide her id. Also, she was not out of the country in the required capacity for more than 5 years previously.

All of which is mentioned in the article.

I know, why not link to some lunatic who thinks the NYT's is covering for Bush? That should be persuasive.

Take three parts hatred and four parts wishful thinking, stir until you get an indictment. If no indictment, try another grand jury. repeat.

The person who drafted the law was not privy to the CIA discussions with Justice, which were classified. She doesn't know Plame's status.

Plame had given up her role as a covert agent in favor of a desk job in Langley, Va., nine years before the Rove interview, according to New York Times columnist Nicholas Kristof.

The NYT supposedly knew her status. If you can't show me a NYT correction that essentially recants Kristof, you're the one full of shit.

She's talking out of her ass. And she is a partisan hack to boot.

Drafted the law that was supposedly broken = talking out of her ass.

Chief counsel for the chairman of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence = partisan hack.

Josh Marshall = super duper extra dependable reliable source.

Sorry, Tubby, you can't win. Quick, post a 2,000 word cut-and-paste that no one will read in order to save face.

quote the tubbs:

The CIA referred the case to Justice, and convinced them a crime was committed. Apparently Plame was an NOC.

unbelievable.

no, really, unbelievable. As in "This person has no credibility." Or rather, "completely insane." Or better yet "a rat faced liar." Or more accurately "Someone who has continually misread, misapplied or ignored basic elements of the laws he asserts that were broken."

The NYT supposedly knew her status. If you can't show me a NYT correction that essentially recants Kristof, you're the one full of shit.

What the hell?!? So now NYT columnists are supposed to know the status of CIA agents??? And the CIA is just supposed to 'fess up to an NOC because someone asks?

What part of secret don't you guys get? I'm not saying that *I* know her status, but all the CIA signs are that she was the real deal.

How about you show me the CIA correction of Wilson's statements? How about you show me where George Bush corrected himself in stating a serious crime was committed?

Jeez. If all you have is Kristof's column, before 1/10 of current info was known? Why don't you just cool it and see if Fitzgerald makes a report, or if it's clear from the charges what's really going on? Can you honestly say you see what's going on from Judith Miller's role, Novak's WH sources, and the discrepancies all over the map? I can conjecture too, but have you got a story you really believe in already?

Man, fuses are getting shorter every day around here. I guess that means a few folks are finally facing up to a little reality.

Plame's status is pretty much open for the whole world to see. Novak called the CIA before his article. They did not take affirmative steps to hide her id. Also, she was not out of the country in the required capacity for more than 5 years previously.

I love this part. What steps do you think the CIA would take to hide the ID of a NOC? What step could they take that wouldn't CONFIRM what must not be revealed? If she were a NOC, how would YOU know if she's been out of the country? This whole idea of "secret" seems to elude you.

Man, fuses are getting shorter every day around here. I guess that means a few folks are finally facing up to a little reality.

Oh, dear, tubino. Elementary moonbattery: "I'm pissing people off! That means I'm scoring points!"

I'm still confident in my bargain.

Elementary moonbattery: "I'm pissing people off! That means I'm scoring points!"

Well, actually it's this frantic, even desperate attempt to grasp at anything to "prove" no crime was committed -- based on words of people who can't really know, and discounting those who might know. Uh, it's maybe a bit too early to say? But Fitzgerald is conducting this investigation as he has many successful ones.

"I'm still confident in my bargain."

Yeah, me too. Fun, huh?

FWIW, I read that link that geoff provided for a rightwing rundown on the Plame investigation. YAWN. Rambling, disjointed, with snippets pulled from more informative sites... Maybe I didn't go back far enough?

Cedarford was funnier.

Fitzgerald makes a report

which he said he's not going to do. He'll indict or not and that's it.

The law requires that the CIA take affirmative steps to protect her identity - the way the CIA reacted to Novak doesn't cut the mustard on that. He's an old pro/hack - if they had asked him to withold on security grounds (instead of just implying it was political), he would have done so. Any why didn't Wilson have to sign a confi regarding his work for the CIA in Niger? Was that set up in advance so that he could peddle his lies in the newspapers when he got back.

If CIA chooses to go to war with the White House, why are they surprised that the White House shoots back? Hell, if Bush had any real balls he'd have had the entire 7th floor at Langley doing the perp walk after 9/11 - followed by some folks from the Hoober building.

I find it beyond hilarious how so many lefties are so completely credulous of what the CIA says and does.

It's just kind of ... mind-boggling, until you understand the basic "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" motif.

I seriously doubt that someone who drives to work in Langley every day for 9 years can be considered a NOC. But we'll see, eh?

Ace:

You are second only to Andrew Sullivan in your penchant to run like a scared schoolgirl every time the liberals say, "Boo!"

Having said that, if Rove and/or Libby are indicted for perjury/obstruction of justice, liberals will see it as payback for the Clinton impeachment, which I opposed at the time because it set the bar too low.

What the hell?!? So now NYT columnists are supposed to know the status of CIA agents??? And the CIA is just supposed to 'fess up to an NOC because someone asks?

Plame had given up her role as a covert agent in favor of a desk job in Langley, Va., nine years before the Rove interview, according to New York Times columnist Nicholas Kristof.

How about you show me the CIA correction of Wilson's statements?

When the CIA starts putting out stuff on the web, I'll give you a link. Until then, you'll have to be satisfied with the AP and a little organization named the U.S. Senate Intelligence Committee.

Associated Press, July 10, 2004:

WASHINGTON - A Senate report criticizing false CIA claims that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction at the same time provides support for an assertion the White House repudiated: that Iraq sought to buy uranium in Africa.

A Friday report from the Senate Intelligence Committee offers new details supporting the claim.

French and British intelligence separately told the United States about possible Iraqi attempts to buy uranium in the African nation of Niger, the report said. The report from France is significant not only because Paris opposed the Iraq war but also because Niger is a former French colony and French companies control uranium production there.

Joseph Wilson, a retired U.S. diplomat the CIA sent to investigate the Niger story, also found evidence of Iraqi contacts with Nigerien officials, the report said.

Senate report here.

Clifford May has a good article on the Wilson lie.

You lose again, Tubby. You might want to take a break and read some more Chomsky or watch a Moore documentary or something.

Does Ace react too quickly to daily liberal talking points that the GOP will be destroyed by the end of the week?

Hmm, maybe he does. But he is still a good read.

Maybe Ace is really Tubbino, reacting to his own crazy predictions that any minute now, the entire White House will be in handcuffs.

Because Plame was a NOC.

Probably still is.

Another money quote:

There's still more: As Susan Schmidt reported — back on page A9 of Saturday's Washington Post: "Contrary to Wilson's assertions and even the government's previous statements, the CIA did not tell the White House it had qualms about the reliability of the Africa intelligence."

According to the Washington Post, the CIA did not support Wilson's story. Poor Tubby.

Come on, Sue, the game is up.

Some dude at the Huffington Post said that he never believed that stuff.

Oh wait, I don't want to get in trouble or anything, but I think I see Valerie Plame, in a cocktail dress, scaling the side of the office building across from me. I think she's on a mission.

shhh

"I find it beyond hilarious how so many lefties are so completely credulous of what the CIA says and does."

I find it strange how many rightwingers ignore that their own president said he thinks a serious crime was committed.

I don't much trust what the CIA says, but I think what they DO says a lot.

Anyway, there is a much bigger picture here. It's refreshing to see the MSM get taken to task for the lies leading to war.

It's the WHIG folks you want to watch here, folks...

Is there ANY rightwing explanation for Judith Miller's stories and behavior and journalism on WMD?

Just ONE?

Sue, you're recycling debunked noise machinery. Need a link to find out why?

Step back and get the big picture.

insane.

"I find it strange how many rightwingers ignore that their own president said he thinks a serious crime was committed."

Why bother talking with such insanity. But it is fun making fun of it.

Us rightwingers apparently were not aware that Bush made such a statement at the conclusion of an exhaustive investigation, instead of responding to a hypothetical in which Jane Bond was found floating in the Potomac River as a result of her super secret ID being exposed. Thus "punishing" the heroic Whistle Blower Joe Wilson.

Judy Miller : "WMD -- I got it totally wrong... The analysts, the experts and the journalists who covered them -- we were all wrong."

So that's a lie then?

run with that.

Tubesteak knows we are aware that "WMD's in Iraq!" was conventional wisdom through three administrations and virtually every significant Democrat had spoken harshly about them for years. It knows Miller reported on WMD's in Iraq thoughout the Clinton years because I told it. It has no case whatever that the Bushies co-opted Miller to sell their war.

It knows this and it knows we know it. But you mark my words: It will go on pretending Miller's subversion was a Bush/Rove plot just to waste bandwidth and yank the dinghers. There's no other excuse for wandering down the same path even after it has taken the clue bat between it's beady eyes.

It is a troll.

Sue, you're recycling debunked noise machinery.

You're calling the NYT and the Washington Post "debunked noise machinery." That's hilarious, considering your position on pretty much every political issue is in lockstep with what they print.

Need a link to find out why?

Sock it to me, bitch.

"will go on pretending Miller's subversion was a Bush/Rove plot"

no, it was the "neocon shill" according to him yesterday or the day before.

At least he didn't say "shtick."

"It's a troll."

It's a canadian troll.

Sue, if you had clicked on one of Tubber's magical links, you would have found that his sources (aside from the Huffington Post) believe that the NYTimes is carrying the admin's water.

Its better you didn't, of course, but that's the nature of our troll.

What's funny is that if I looked for an old comment, I am sure I could find Tubbers claim that the 9-11 commission conclusively, without-a-doubt had found that Al Qaeda and Iraq never, ever even talked once. You know because the pre-report had a sentence saying that there was no operation connection found, as far as 9-11 went.

Even better is the trolls' citation of Bin Laden - Halliburton connections.

Thanks guys (especially joeindc44.) I guess I was more accurate than I knew when I told it to read more Chomsky and watch Moore. Idiotarians from Canadia eat that shit up. "RARRRRR WE HATES EVERYTHING ABOOT THE USA EH?"

I find it strange that the only time in the past five years Tubby has believed a word W has spoken is now, when W said a crime had been committed! I wonder how he can be so insightful as to know, out of all the statements W has made in five years, this is the only one that was true?

Actually, Tubby probably is Cedarford, and just as funny, too.

Did turgidino ever claim to be Canadian, or is that something we're sticking him with for fun?

"Actually, Tubby probably is Cedarford, and just as funny, too."

I've had the sneaking suspicion but didn't want to say it. Thanks for breaking the ice for me!

So, is it just me or did he only show up after Cedarford was banned? I recall Cedar actually claiming to have multiple online personas once.

Sortelli, our canadian friend has never claimed canadian status. But, more importantly, he has never denied it, either.

It's just a hunch I have that he is a canadian, living in Toronto, going to University, loving his nationally funded healthcare, wishing he was a real europeon, and fantasizing about how smart he is and how dumb we are.

Look at the FACTS:
1) No sense of humor.
b) Know-it-all arrogance.
iii) Has referred to "the Americans" and "the U.S. government" on a few occasions which indicate to me that he is a foreigner.
d) Has a I (heart) Rachel Corrie sticker on his bedroom wall in his parent's house.

As far as I'm concerned, Toob is canadian.

"Sortelli, our canadian friend has never claimed canadian status. But, more importantly, he has never denied it, either. "

Well that tears it! He's just as Canadian as Bush is Hitler!

Well, maybe a little bit more because I can actually believe tubroito suffers from Canadism.