*cough*

Its hard to say this, but I find myself pining for the *cough* *cough* integrity level of the Howell Raines era.

I'm sick of hearing that these people are victims. Except for possibly the elderly and children, they should have left. Don't tell me they are poor. I've dealt with poor people for 20 years. They all have money for the things they really want. Being poor in the US is no where near like it is in other countries. If they had no where to go, they should have hopped a bus and gone nowhere. If it was a miss, they could have come back. If not, stayed in the town they were in and seek refuge there.

I hear the Superdome was nothing but trash, feces and urine. Yes, I know there was no plumbing etc. , but still. If no one has the self-discipline to follow public health orders in an emergency and not shit where they eat and sleep, fuck them. If those who could walk didn't get up off their asses and go to the French Quarter and get food and water, fuck 'em.

And if the response afterwards sucked, blame it on the criminals and the local officials. Again, except for the elderly and kids, I have lost all sympathy.

A great deal of this can be blamed on the relentless dependency culture promoted towards the poor. "If you want, it's because there isn't a government program to give it to you" is the worst thing to happen to self-reliance in this country.

In any random grouping of 20 or more middle-class Americans is at least one or two ex-Boy Scouts who can rig a temporary latrine and arrange for safe water. The lower-classes end up requiring outside aid because they've never had to face a situation like this before and under pressure is not the time to learn about hygeine.

In that entire Superdome, there probably wasn't a handful of real leaders. They were to a man trained throughout their lifetime to be followers.

Apparently, shifting the blame among political parties is only one thing, which is left right now for the politicians to debate. So, who is going outsmart and convince public in their truth?

It is sad, but it shows again how unprepared local (not only) government to manage any natural disaster. It is shame that with yearly drills and prediction services government are not able to predict how deal in such situations. Any way, they are doing their job accusing and blaming each one.

I read that Americans (70%) do not like poor people. Please, correct me if I am wrong.

Tell you what, you show me where it says that, and I'll tell you if you're wrong. Personally, I don't know 70% of the people in America, so it'd be foolish to speak for them. I don't like or dislike poor people. It's a bigoted response to paint everyone with the same brush, just because they're poor.

Looking at the response in donations in time and money for the Katrina victims, it certainly looks like a lot of people like the poor.

Michel, Americans don't dislike poor people. They dislike lazy people who refuse to work because they think they are entitled to be supported by someone else.

Yeah! And don't confuse the rest of the US with New Orleans. Look how Texas was able to respond. You know, Texas, where that "cowboy" comes from? I hope you realize what a big laugh we get when we hear "he's a real cowboy" used as a slur.

I read that Americans (70%) do not like poor people. Please, correct me if I am wrong.

Okay, you're wrong.

Have I missed something concerning the analysis about the Kitrina disaster? It seems to me that if I were in the path of a force 5 hurricane , living on land with an average elevation 6 feet below sea level, next to a dike holding out the sea, I think I wouldn't have to wait for some dumbass politician to tell me to get the hell out. Is there some law that the citizens of New Orleans aren't allowed to think for themselves, but have to wait until someone thinks for them? Maybe this sounds heartless--Hell maybe it is heartless, but don't people have to take some responsibility for their own safety?

I read that Americans (70%) do not like poor people.

I read that too.

No wait, I didn't.

Question what you read Michel.

john, many of New Orleans' poorest residents were given very bad information, if any information at all. They were assured the Superdome would protect them from the storm, which it did... but no one warned them the conditions they'd endure for the next 5 days would be hellish. There was no food, no water, no facilities for human waste.

Worse than that, they were told "get there on your own (feet)".

It was shameful. The local and state officials waited for the federal government to rescue them, and they did, but it takes time to move those kinds of massive resources. Even mistakes were made at the federal level, but the responsibility for "what do I do"? lies with the locals. They abdicated that responsibility, and cried "look what the feds did to us" when it became apparent they were in over their heads.

The poor, the old, the infirm, all depended on a lie. They can't be held responsible for that.

It's a known fact that 90% of statistics cited by people were made up on the spot.

Michel, I work in development and spend a lot of my time searching for grants. You'd be amazed at how many charitable foundations in the United States are dedicated to helping the poor.

We're a generous country.

Dave: We disagree on the poor. Even the poor these days have a couple of televsision sets. They knew what was coming and a number of them should have remembered Camille. Poor does not mean dumb. People make many stupid choices but it is not based on being poor. And before someone tells me they were poor and had no where to go or a way to get there, bull.

What people fail to mention when they blame the local government is the fact that the local government saved many thousands of lives by immediately opening up the Superdome and Convention center.

What other people fail to mention is this simple fact:

http://gov.louisiana.gov/Disaster%20Relief%20Request.pdf

Now. Whos to blame? I don't believe that the local government is completely free of any blame but I'd put at least 75% of the blame on incompetence in the Federal Level.

Why? Because the people in FEMA obviously were not qualified. ON the 28th they asked for assistance: it did not come until the 2nd.

People also fail to understand that the local police LIVE there and MANY lost their homes, couldn't contact their family, and ultimately never had *experience* with this.

Bush also cut alot of money back that could have *at the very least* slowed the flooding which could have aloud more evacuation and prevented alot of this.

Why don't you guys mention those facts too and consider those facts too?

Yeeearrrgh! That was an outstanding recitation!

You're all doing a great job!

Keep up the good work!

Dave in Texas: That is exactly my point. Why rely on government? Have we become such a welfare mentality nation that we no longer are capable of even imagining that we ought to have our own responsibilities? Have we, (you and I) become such blobs that we do whatever the government says? Having read hour after hour and day after day the whole political range of commentary I was struck by the common thread-THE GOVERNMENT NEEDS TO TAKE CARE OF US. The only argument between right and left is that they( either the Democrats in local and state government or the Republicans in the Federal Government)aren't doing a good enough job of taking care of us. Blame Bush or someone else, but never yourself. Why is self reliance never an option? I fear we've all slipped into a welfare mom mind set. Remocrats and Depublicans.

anon,

how does a 28 year old remember Camille? For that matter, a 38 year old?

as to means, like money, for a place to stay, or a vehicle?

I hope you won't take this the wrong way or anything, but you're an idiot.

john, ask around, you won't find many people as conservative/libertarian leaning as me.

All I pointed out was that to blame them is a waste of time. They have been conditioned and trained and lied to, that when the SHTF, your government will take care of you. It's not their fault they believed it, you get lied to all your damn life you believe the lie.

Cops were supposed to be moving through neighborhoods yelling on loudspeakers "move! get out"!

Never happened.

It is absolutely fine as conservatives to question the left shrieking blame game, well into the 3rd quarter as ace has pointed out.

But there are victims here. Let's not get stupid and blame the victims.

Dave in Texas: Yeh you're right about blaming the victims. But all the same I fear that each of us is just a conservative socialist and that the lefties are really liberal socalists.

I read that close to 100% of Americans hate the French. You can't correct me because I'm not wrong.

Thanks for clarification.
Poor and social welfare. I see connection here.

Read that close to 100% of Americans hate the French. You can't correct me because I'm not wrong.

I think people can not dislike people, just because of their nationality. Matter is in other. And I think you are wrong.

zetetic is wrong, it's really only about 75%-80%. Now French-Canadians, that's probably 100%, but even the real Canadians hate those guys.

Hate is a strong word.

Loathe is better

anon, how does a 28 year old remember Camille? For that matter, a 38 year old?

Gee, I don't know. Maybe, they heard their parents and relatives talking about it? Maybe, they heard it in school? Maybe, not everyone who remained in New Orleans is 38 years or younger?????

as to means, like money, for a place to stay, or a vehicle?

People we label poor in America don't necessarily lack any money. They do have money for a lot of things. They may have different priorities, and I would hope a cat 5 hurricane would be one of them. Who needs a place to stay? Just get the hell out. Everyone thought NO had dodged the bullet and they were going to be able to return, that is until the levee broke. Then they needed a place to stay and it wasn't going to be in NO, anyway. And, are you saying “poor people” are entirely immobile? News to me. Are you ever around poor people? Ever met one? Doesn't sound like it.

I hope you won't take this the wrong way or anything, but you're an idiot.

And you're an ignorant asshole. And do take it the wrong way.

Let me just throw this into the circle jerk. With the hurricane hitting at the end of the month, could it be that some of the "poor" were living on fumes waiting for the check to come on the 1st. Isn't that when welfare goes out? Maybe they (some, not all) had cars, but no gas. That still doesn't explain most of them away, but it might be a reason for some of them. Basically, people make stupid decisions every day, unfortunately for them, this decision was worse than most.

Gee, I don't know

That's true. You don't.

And, are you saying “poor people” are entirely immobile? News to me. Are you ever around poor people? Ever met one?

Funny, I was just thinking today about the 97 year old black woman in a wheelchair I saw getting loaded up today, and I was thinking "why didn't she get on her Rascal and scoot on up to Baton Rouge?

Well she didn't have one Clyde. An Nagin fucked up and left her surrounded by water.

Now, you're making me argue lefty points, which gives me a bleeding headache, so get yourself right already. You're screaming "fuck the poor", which is stupid and hateful and makes the rest of us who are conservative yet still have compassion look bad.

Well, if we don't argue with you that is.

So, in conclusion, blow me, you pathetic piece of monkey shit.

(and thanks for letting me piss you off. that makes up for a lot)

Who needs a place to stay? Just get the hell out.

I think the point Dave is trying to make is that many of them were not able to get out because they didn't have transportation.

The city had a plan to deal with these people, but that plan was not implemented. What were they supposed to do? Walk out of New Orleans? With the size of that storm, that would have been tends of thousands of people trapped outside during a Cat 4 hurricane.

New Orleans is a pretty big place too. Even if they're healthy enough to walk that distance, it would still leave them out in the open when the storm hit.

Well hell, Slub, I didn't know I had to take it down to Barney Rubble for him.

Dear anon, so sorry, I gave you credit for being able to tie your shoelaces and shit.

My bad.

Many people in New Orleans, poor, without vehicles or money, trusted a stupid piece of shit plan that said "carry 5 days of food and water with you to the Superdome, wait for the Feds, good luck".

Course the 97 year old lady in the wheelchair couldn't do that, but heck the rest of em made it ok.

Dave in TX:

I don't bother responding to our anonymous friend anymore because he soils our side of the debate. Averse to research or considered thought, he seems to simply reel off a series of observations that are a complete caricature of the conservative position. When liberals call us "knuckledraggers," they undoubtedly have him in mind.

Anon, don't feel bad about being piled-upon.

This is how we treat all angry, fact-averse, lie-spewing anonymous troll morons. Anonymous people annoy us. Anonymous people who talk nonsense really annoy us.

So don't take it personally.

I'm more amused, than annoyed. My guess is Mr. Anonymous is a lefty plant playing a caricature of what he's perceives conservatives to be. Sort of like the parodies of liberals we sometimes do, except that it's harder to spot parodies of liberals. At least this troll has put in a little more effort than most. Bravo, Mr. Anonymous, whoever you are.

We really should have some informal "rules" (read: warnings) for people who want to discuss things here.

Like - don't be anonymous. It annoys us right off the bat and we'll be more likely to call you bad names.

Stuff like that.

s'why you gotta waste time and confront em dbs

I confronted one : David "acid casualty" Brooks. I blogged an email I sent to him.

the finding of fault with them is entirely "spin" by a White House

Uh, the finding of fault I've done with Blanco and Nagin has largely been based on their own admissions. Well, that, and the shouting they've done at each other.

Is Rove able to put words in people's mouths now? Has he evolved that capability as well? Because then someone ought to congratulate the boys in the lab for their outstanding work with the Rovebot 3000. Smokin'.

I suspect a certain proportion of able bodied people weren't willing to get out because they were afraid that their stuff would be looted by their own neighbors.

And guess what?

Hey Fuckwad from Texas. You and Sloblog just can't seem to tolerate anyone who doesn't think 110% like you. Tough shit.

And, ignore the fact that I clearly stated that it did not apply to those who were dependent, i.e., the elderly and children, TWICE. But, hey, if you didn't, you wouldn't have an excuse to be an asshole now would you?

And don't give me this shit You're screaming "fuck the poor" – Those are your words, asshat, not mine. You are the one who equates poor with stupid, dumb fuck.

And I didn't say walk out of town. You get yourself to a bus station, a train station, into your car and go before the day of the fucking hurricane.

You have the nerve to call me a liberal? You and the others with their noses up your ass are the ones acting like liberals – viewing everyone different from you as unable to take care of themselves. Shitheads.

(and thanks for letting me piss you off. that makes up for a lot)
Your welcome. The combination of sheer stupidity and assholery always pisses me off. Now you and the boys can go back to doing what you know best --diddling each other.

I suspect a certain proportion of able bodied people weren't willing to get out because they were afraid that their stuff would be looted by their own neighbors.

Stuff? What stuff? They're poooooooor! They have no stuff. According to Fuckwad from Texas and the boys with their noses up his ass, because they're poooooor, they're also incapable of traveling to the store to buy stuff.

Huh. Beats me why you wouldn't want to sign a name to those sentiments.

Except for possibly the elderly and children

possibly?

yeah, you makin the case now bro.

Your welcome. The combination of sheer stupidity and assholery always pisses me off. Now you and the boys can go back to doing what you know best --diddling each other.

So not only do you hate the poor. You're also homophobic?

Tsk. Tsk.

"So, in conclusion, blow me, you pathetic piece of monkey shit."

Dave,

I am requesting permission to use this in the next flame war thread!

No Name,

Consider yourself blessed if you've never had a period of time in your life when you were experiencing financial difficulties. When my wife and I made the decision for her to quit work and stay home to raise our children there were many times when we had ZERO cash-on-hand and we certainly had no credit cards. You can't just hop in your car and drive as far as that half tank of gas will take you because *then what?*. So, long story short, the people who didn't evacuate are paying the price now so a little compassion on our part is what's needed. Your scorn is counterproductive and makes you look small and petty.

The NY Times? Who even reads that yellow rag piece of crap anymore? Infested with communists during the cold war, which is verifiably proven, they have never recovered. We need a new paper of record and to constrain the Slimes to the rack with the National Enquirer.

AlanB wrote:

http://gov.louisiana.gov/Disaster%20Relief%20Request.pdf

Now. Whos to blame? I don't believe that the local government is completely free of any blame but I'd put at least 75% of the blame on incompetence in the Federal Level.

Why? Because the people in FEMA obviously were not qualified. ON the 28th they asked for assistance: it did not come until the 2nd.

Your source states that Governor Blanco only requested money and debris removal assistance. The line item marked on the last page as "Distribution of emergency supplies" is zero.

The purpose of the document was to expedite federal disaster funding. Blanco was requesting that Bush declare her state a disaster area to accomplish this.

Bush did declare a State of Emergency for Louisiana on the 27th.

I don't think he can declare a place as a disaster area until the actual disaster occurs. Katrina made landfall on the 29th. The best he could do was what he did - declare a State of Emergency and promise the governor exactly what she requested.

People also fail to understand that the local police LIVE there and MANY lost their homes, couldn't contact their family, and ultimately never had *experience* with this.

I don't think police in NYC had any experience with jetliners crashing into skyscrapers. But they handled it anyway. Do you know why? Because it was their job.

I don't remember the oath "to serve and protect" being amended with "unless something really, really bad happens."

Bush also cut alot of money back that could have *at the very least* slowed the flooding which could have aloud more evacuation and prevented alot of this.

You're exactly right, just look at how uncaring he was, talking about cutting the money:

Anyone who cares about responsible budgeting and the health of America's rivers and wetlands should pay attention to a bill now before the Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works. The bill would shovel $17 billion at the Army Corps of Engineers for flood control and other water-related projects -- this at a time when President Bush is asking for major cuts in Medicaid and other important domestic programs. Among these projects is a $2.7 billion boondoggle on the Mississippi River that has twice flunked inspection by the National Academy of Sciences. The Government Accountability Office and other watchdogs accuse the corps of routinely inflating the economic benefits of its projects. And environmentalists blame it for turning free-flowing rivers into lifeless canals and destroying millions of acres of wetlands -- usually in the name of flood control and navigation but mostly to satisfy Congress's appetite for pork.

This is a bad piece of legislation.

Oh wait, Bush didn't say that. It was the New York Times, the very same newspaper calling for Bush's head on a platter for each and every problem that arises.

And by the way, it's Congress that controls federal funding for state projects, not the President. The President only has such control during emergencies. A years-long engineering project is not an emergency.

Why don't you guys mention those facts too and consider those facts too?

We did, but we like the truth better than some leftist bullet-point-list propaganda.

The truth is more difficult to find and understand, mind you, but we feel its better than having our brains rot from blindly accepting whatever the MSM and its leftist enablers spew.

Sue, the guy's right, I'm an idiot.

I just now got the play on words in your name.

*sigh* 7 years of college down the drain

It's okay, Dave, even Texans aren't perfect. ;)

I just now got the play on words in your name.

It took me two weeks, so I reckon I'm a little quicker on the uptake. I kept squinting at it thinking, "something ain't right here. I wonder if it's one o' them acronym dooflunkies."

we may not be perfect, but sometimes we're lucky. that Mychal Massie article you mentioned yesterday? that wasn't my comment he quoted, that was Monty's. I made some crack about sushi.

of course, I don't mind getting credit for his insight, and he got screwed,

bonus

"I just now got the play on words in your name."

Oh boy. I'm not bright but I am honest. Dave, you're the *second to last* person to figure it out. Dang!

Really Brew? Well, ok then. Feel free to use the riveting conclusion to my earlier post in the next flame war.

You have the nerve to call me a liberal? You and the others with their noses up your ass are the ones acting like liberals – viewing everyone different from you as unable to take care of themselves. Shitheads.

Oh yeah, definitly a closet liberal, right down to the homophobia and the hatred of poor people, even though you need their votes. It's okay Anonymous, we aren't judging you for being a liberal, just for being an idiot.

Btw, ask your mom if I left my wallet on her nightstand, I've been looking for it.

Oh yeah, definitly a closet liberal, right down to the homophobia and the hatred of poor people

Don't forget the jooooos - the Iraq war is all the joooooos fault. Cindy Sheehan has reliably informed me of this.

I've said no such thing.

Conservatives are liars.

Feel free to use the riveting conclusion to my earlier post in the next flame war.

Sweet! I'm not sure I can wait that long, though. Hey, has anybody seen cedarford around? I've got something to tell him.

Except for possibly the elderly and children
possibly? yeah, you makin the case now bro.

Yeah, Fuckwad from Texas, I wd expect most able bodied people to aid the elderly and children to get out. You, on the other hand, would leave your own grandma behind.

So not only do you hate the poor. You're also homophobic? Tsk. Tsk.

You're not poor. And, homophobic because I don't care to join you and the other circle jerks? Hardly.

Consider yourself blessed if you've never had a period of time in your life when you were experiencing financial difficulties.

Consider yourself stupid since you do not know anything about me.

When my wife and I made the decision for her to quit work and stay home to raise our children there were many times when we had ZERO cash-on-hand and we certainly had no credit cards.
OMG! No credit cards!!!!!!!!!!! Poor you!!

You can't just hop in your car and drive as far as that half tank of gas will take you because *then what?*.

You take what money you have, borrow the rest, either fill the tank or buy a one way ticket to anywhere, and get as far away from the hurricane which is what 80% of the people did. That's what.

So, long story short, the people who didn't evacuate are paying the price now so a little compassion on our part is what's needed. Your scorn is counterproductive and makes you look small and petty.

Let's make it shorter: fuck you. Your solution is for people to have stayed there and died. And don't lecture me about compassion, I have taken someone in who I barely know, who lost everything, as has her family. You and the other circlejerks idea of compassion is shooting your fat mouths off and attacking people bc you're stupid and bored, you small, petty asshole.

Consider yourself stupid since you do not know anything about me.

Who's fault is that?

Why don't you grace us with your riveting tales of childhood deprivation and desperate deadening adult poverty and rejection.

Ten-hut Ace denizens - we are about to be graced with a recitation by the next Charles Bukowski.