It's not grim. Do you remember how cities were flatten in Europe and Japan during WW2? If I had some serious money I would invest it in New Orleans right now so I could be part of it's future.

Dresden wasn't below sea level, and the people of Japan had nowhere else to go because all the cities were burned out. Other than that, yup, you're DEAD ON.

Most everybody who gets a check will move-- will HAVE to move. Or what, do you expect them to wait in the Astrodome for a year??

In Dresden they spoke german and in japan, japanese, so what's your point? The flooding has stopped. The water will be pumped out. Areas will dry out and people will rebuild. As soon as people can get back in they will. Rebuilding creates jobs. People filling those jobs need services. You don't think aid will pour into that city?

If the looters are strong enough to carry off bigscreen tv's and cases of beer and booze, they're strong enough to help rebuild. Put 'em to work manning a backhoe and pulling a check every week. Best thing.

Why should it? It'll just flood again. This isn't some hurricane in Florida where people go back in a week to clean up-- people will be gone for many, many months. These people won't stick around waiting, they'll find new jobs and move to new cities. Some people have to go back-- the ports, the utilities-- but like Maher noted, many, if not most, may never go back.

I'm confident the tourists will go back and so will the majority of the residents. I'm already making plans to take a break from my vacation to go for Mardi Gras in 2007. I wouldn't be shocked to see some kind of Mardis Gras celebration there next February.

As I mentioned before, it's going to be very hard to justify rebuilding much of New Orleans. Yesterday, the talk radio outlets were all noting that the Times Picayune, the city's major newspaper, ran a long article in 2002 detailing the risks the city faced. The scenario described was almost exactly what has now become reality.

The problem has been known for decades but there was no practical solution. Meanwhile, the ground beneath New Orleans continues to sink, making the flood that much worse when it comes.

In places like California and Japan where earthquakes are a major threat, we've been very successful in advancing building standards to meet the challenge. The terrible death toll for the 1995 Kobe quake was due to that area having a high percentage of very old structures with little retrofitting to modern safety specs. When a new building is put up in Kobe it is done with the knowledge it will be much stronger and safer than what stood there before. There is no similar plan for building a safer New Orleans.

It'll flood again? Maybe. Probably. But, New Orleans had been around for 200 years before this happened. You discount people's emotional ties to this place. It is their home.

I was born in Kentucky. I grew up in Kentucky, went to college in Kentucky, got my first job in Kentucky. I love Kentucky. When I die, regardless of where I'm buried, my wife has instructions that the first spade of dirt to hit me when I'm planted in the ground should be from the Bluegrass State.

I don't live or work there now, because I have better opportunies where I am now.

I, of all people, would never discount the emotional ties that "place" may hold on an individual. But I think you discount human pragmatism.

Well I don't have any emotional ties to the place. So just exactly how many of my tax dollars will be going to rebuild a city below sea level and to keep a river in a channel that should have shifted 100 years ago?

I have no beef with spending federal money to relocate the people or rebuild on higher ground. But to spend billions to rebuild this absurd place on the same spot is insane.

And you discount the entrepreneurial spirit that has been part of New Orleans for 200 years.

Keep the French Quarter, then, and the areas that are above sea level. The rest of the city will need to be rebuilt anyway, so why not do as much of it as possible in a safer location?

The question is not whether NO should be rebuilt, but whether federal funds should be used in the rebuilding. I understand people's devotion to their home (actually I don't at a visceral level, but I'll give it lip service), but there is no obligation for the rest of the country to subsidize their desire to build a city in such a vulnerable place. Unless, of course, its value as a port & refinery location outweighs the risks.

Well, I'm not happy with my tax dollars going to the commie ingrates of NYC (sorry, ace), either, so there you go. They'll never change and they will always be a target. The hell with the place.

New Orleans has generated revenue and jobs and culture for centuries. You people talk about it as if it was a matter of moving out of an apt.

The dutch have intimate first hand knowledge of how to deal with this sort of problem (excepting cat 5 hurricanes), and the solution we come up with in NO will most likely be along the lines of what they have done. Multiple levees, like backups for backups, will require the sacrificing of some of the developed land, but is the best way to avoid a repeat of this problem. If the city of NO is worth keeping, who the f**k cares what it costs. If it is not, then it won't cost much at all. I think it is.

I'm maintaing a blog list of responsible bloggers asking the tough questions regarding the rebuilding of New Orleans at Discussions on alternatives to rebuilding New Orleans.


I've added your post to the list.


Please point any like minded bloggers that would like to be added to the list over my way at:


http://porkopolis.blogspot.com/2005/08/discussions-on-alternatives-to.html


Part of what has to be done is contact Senators and Congressman to let them know there's another way to help those in need.


Porkopolis

"The dutch have intimate first hand knowledge of how to deal with this sort of problem (excepting cat 5 hurricanes), "

And Abe Lincoln loved the play, before he got shot.

That's an exception that makes all the difference in the world-- NO will continue to get hit with hurricanes, only it will get much worse.

Keep the port, keep the people who want to live and make money off the port (and move back on their own nickle), but don't subsidize everyone moving back for other reasons (i.e., tourism industries).

The Dutch dikes are generally within a massive aluvial delta. New Orleans is fighting not only water pressur but the river itself. Also, if you have triple redundant dikes, you've used up a whole bunch of the city - so whay bother?

New Orleans is a very important port for the US. You can't just cut and run. However, if the city is to be rebuilt, then it should be built to withstand another worse case Katrina incident.
Everytime there is a disaster in Japan, they rebuild, but rebuild stronger, learning from the mistakes of the past.
In Florida they redid all of their building codes and that has helped to mitigate damage of subsequent storms. In N.O. and throughout the south they should take steps to make the power infrastructure more robust, putting lines underground for instance, as it seems that the lack of power is a major problem in Katrina's aftermath.

Hey, this is the same country that when the Space Shuttle Challenger blew up, we just built another Space Shuttle.

New Orleans will be rebuilt. This time. As for a second time, well, note that no one is racing to replace the Columbia.

If that sucker's gonna just up and flood again, being below sea level and all, why not turn it into an American Venice w/ the canals and the crazy gondolas. That would be cool.

,i>Everytime there is a disaster in Japan, they rebuild, but rebuild stronger, learning from the mistakes of the past.

But they didn't build in a below-sea level sinkhole surrounded by water. We haven't even gotten through this years' hurricane season yet. I agree with those who say we ought to rebuild the port, and then move everybody else upstream.

Damnit, don't you people understand that I have not yet been to NO or Mardi Gras. It's about me and I say rebuild.

NO will be rebuilt, there's too much $$$ to be made in the tourism/gambling/prostitution trade. Hopefully afterwards you won't be taking your life in your hands trying to use an ATM on Canal Street. Shooting the looters would be a good place to start cleaning up the city.

Is it just me, or is the fact that someone calling themselves "Porkopolis" is boasting about "responsible bloggers asking the tough questions" on his blog not totally hilarious?

Andrea,

No, it wasn't just you.

Excellent points made about the economic impact - our industry's trade event was scheduled for NO in October. Typically attended by 5000+, with another 2000-3000 representing 800+ companies for 5 days. Shows like this happen almost every week. The small and medium sized businesses who depended on this probably won't recover.

OT, a friend and co-worker has not been heard from since Monday. He lived in Slidell, 5 miles from the coast.

I've survived five Mardi Gras, and I predict New Orleans will be rebuilt. Smaller, better, cleaner. The fact there is a place in America where you can go half-naked batsh*t crazy for several days in public makes it America's pressure relief valve.

Secondly, a port at the mouth of the Mississippi River is a matter of national necessity, it's what prompted Jefferson to buy the thing (with associated real estate) in the first place.

Damnit, don't you people understand that I have not yet been to NO or Mardi Gras. It's about me and I say rebuild.

Go to Brazil for Carnival instead! You'll never forget it. Spectacular scenery, wonderful music, beautiful women (not drunken skanks lifting their shirts for beads, but the possesors of the finest asses on earth).

Give it a try.

OK, that sounded kind of gay.

I think you're missing the point, Lipstick. If it's Carnaval and asses you want, you don't even have to go as far as Brazil. New Orleans is unique.

Lipstick, I was in Rio for Carnival in 2002.

Everything you just said. Brazilian women are gorgeous.

I suppose in the meantime, half batshit drunken crazy in Vegas will have to do. Rio is on my list and Brazilian woman are amongst the most beautiful on earth.

The Dutch dikes are generally within a massive aluvial delta.

who knew?

Done Vegas. Done New Orleans. No fucking comparison. Vegas has clean, corporate, safe big-kid fun all the time, New Orleans, like Bourbon Street at 2300 at the height of Mardi Gras is like something from another age of mankind.

"Everything you just said. Brazilian women are gorgeous."

Especially their trannies.

Oops, did I say that out loud?

You discount people's emotional ties to this place. It is their home.

No, it was their home. Now it's gone.

We're all going to have to deal with the reality that the New Orleans we knew and loved has been lost.

Oh, I forgot: Karl Maher? Michael? The rest of you penny pinchers? Buncha pussies, all y'all.

...expect that business can survive that long without...

They're all SOL.

Here in Palm Beach the illustrious mayor (uber-lib) Lois Frankle has managed to destroy downtown business with far less disruption than in NOLA.

All it took here was to keep the streets in front of businesses torn up for a year implementing some crackpot Plan-9 that was supposed to revive business. Instead, she buried it.

The Dutch dikes are generally within a massive aluvial delta.

Sorry, there was supposed to be a NOT in there - as in a contradistinction from New Orleans. No offense to any Dutch women in comfortable shoes intended.

No, it was their home. Now it's gone.

Oh, please. This isn't the first flooding to ever happen. The Mississippi and the tributories that flow into it flood cities all the time and they come back. They just don't get the attention. While you all are moaning and groaning that civilization as we know it has come to an end, Bullwinkle and I will be eating crawdads and enjoying the nightlife.

While you all are moaning and groaning that civilization as we know it has come to an end, Bullwinkle and I will be eating crawdads and enjoying the nightlife.

Oh, and Andrea, too! Well, until she climbs up on a balcony and starts flashing and yelling to unspecified people, "You're all a bunch of pussies!"

Rocky, why don't you put your name in the box?

Some of my own time in New Orleans was for trade events at the Morial. Now I'm hearing there were multiple homicides among the refugeees there last night.

The Netherlands is not a useful point of reference. Very different conditions. The portions of Battery Park in NYC that were once ocean have more in common with Amsterdam than the New Orleans area.

Sure, there will always be a busy port at where the Miss. meets the sea but that doesn't mean a major city should accrete around it to place hundreds of thousands of homes in a severe flood basin. The only thing in that basin should be elevated rail lines running between the port and a more sanely located city.

Remember, the very nature of New Orleans is what left it vulnerable. The famously complex and corrupt politics of the places made any initiative to improve the city's protection from natural disaster an epic battle. It was just a matter of time before the bill came due. It would be very hard to get back the spirit of the place without that same political morass. Ergo, my practicality overwhelms any sentimentality I have for the place. Some things just have to be let go when there is no effective means in sight to avoid the same problem happening again.

It's simple -- CONCRETE LEVEES!

And this time, put gates in them a couple of thousand feet apart so you can OPEN them to let water out, if necessary. Lot easier than dynamite.

This satellite photo from Tuesday shows that the flooding pretty much stops at Claiborne Ave. Uptown and the Quarter are high and dry.

In the Netherlands, do they have huge swaths of their cities dominated by housing projects, crack dealers and carjackers?

They were crack dealers and carjackers before. They are crack dealers and carjackers now.

Guys, they rebuilt San Francisco on top of a fault line that leveled... oh yeah, San Francisco.

Building things where they don't belong is what separates us from the animals.

Texas Ranger motto: One riot, one man.

The NOPD needs to step up to the plate here and show some stones and get rough about it if need be.

RAPES IN THE DOME

Police say storm victims are being raped and beaten inside the New Orleans Convention Center.

About 15,200 people who had taken shelter at the convention center to await buses grew increasingly hostile.

Police Chief Eddie Compass says he sent in 88 officers to quell the situation at the building, but they were quickly beaten back by an angry mob.

Compass says, "We have individuals who are getting raped, we have individuals who are getting beaten."

He says tourists are walking in that direction and they are getting preyed upon.

That's no good. What kind of frickin' vultures take advantage of a natural disaster to prey upon others?

I think the savagery will kill off tourism more effectively than the flooding ever could. Who will want to go to the convention center to stand where storm victims were raped? Now I'm starting to think that New Orleans should stay dead, regardless of who funds it.

I'm starting to agree.

It's simple -- CONCRETE LEVEES!
I thought it was the new concrete section of the levee that failed?

As to the NOPD, they were mostly assigned to search and rescue, which under these conditions, is a pretty tough job. Most of their families have not heard from them in days and are worried sick. Plus, they have lost their own homes. So, cut them a break. They can only do what they are ordered to do and they will still get individually sued for it.

Nothing says you can't waste scumbags you happen across while doing SAR.

I'd bet a half dozen SWAT snipers sneaking around the city with NVG could get the situation under control pretty quick or at least tamp it down to a reasonable level.

Scumbags look for an easy score, not a dirtnap.

To all the guys that want NO rebuilt in the same spot: What do you do about the toxic waste? It's going to be a problem to some extent. Will the land be so polluted by the time it's drained that the EPA labels it a supersite?

Let's face it, if we save most of the French Quarter and St. Louis Cathedral, and the Garden District, most of which is on high ground, we'll have kept about 90% of what the rest of America cares about. Although, personally, I think the loss of Tipitino's is huge.

Give the rest back to the gators.

New Orleans is a very important port for the US. You can't just cut and run.

All the port facility, RR lines are high and dry. They were not lost. Nor were the tourista areas, the central business district.

What was lost was the 80% of New Orleans that was 90% black slum build in below sea areas once the original levees and pumps drained those ponds and marshes for mosquito control.

While many of the poorer NO folks were fine people, there was a huge underclass in their ranks that made NO one of America's most jungle-like, dangerous cities.

NO would be a better city if the slums are gone and the people too. Most were renters. Pay the slumowners a fair price, make the former slums parkland, universities built above sea level, and high rises for port workers and tourist industry workers.

Move the slumdwellers to some other shitty city like Camden NJ or Detroit and fix up some of the thousands of empty buildings there for them.

Well, Cedarford just added the final layer of stank to the cesspool this comment thread has become. The gift that keeps on giving....

Sorry, Andrea, I had no idea you lived in Camden NJ.

I'm sorry, was that supposed to be funny?

I know some people here will be highly disappointed but the French Quarter and the Garden District survived just fine. So all this moaning and groaning that the city will never be the same is frankly, bullshit.

I thought it was the new concrete section of the levee that failed?

It was a concrete retainer wall (shaped like an inverted "T") that cantilevered out of soft earth. It was the earthen mounting that failed, not the concrete. The dirt around it washed out, causing the concrete portion to break loose.

There are ways to keep that from happening.

The heart of the problem, of course, is political. The Orleans Parish Levee Board is a corrput system, populated with corrupt officials.

the French Quarter and the Garden District survived just fine

They survived the storm just fine. Whether they survive the criminals remains to be seen.

I notice there's no rapes and shooting at rescue workers going on in Mississippi or Alabama. This is a local problem peculiar to New Orleans.

This national disgrace is the result of decades of bad policies, economic stupidity and a heavy dose of political corruption.

And I love the city. I went to school there, got married there, and lived there for many years. My wife and I have often contemplated moving back, as recently as the weekend before Katrina.

But the political system is as bad as anyplace I have ever seen, rivalled only by New York (although the top prizes have to go to the Soviet Union and Africa).

the French Quarter and the Garden District survived just fine

They survived the storm just fine. Whether they survive the criminals remains to be seen.

The media is holed up in the French Quarter so they think it's safe. And if they loot, they loot. One thing I learned in the LA riots is let them take what they want but if they try to torch the bldg., shoot to kill.

I notice there's no rapes and shooting at rescue workers going on in Mississippi or Alabama. This is a local problem peculiar to New Orleans.

It happens in every urban area and has for decades now. That's why we have laws on the books that shooting a firefighter merits the death penalty.