What the hell is wrong with people today??? When did we become so brutal? It makes me sick. SICK!

"John Walsh 'em"? I was thinking more along the lines of a moderate Harry Callahaning

If by "John Walsh" you mean kill them, then, yeah, I'm with you. I'm surprise the Seattle cops are even looking for the criminals. It's about the most anti-military place I've ever been.

True story: My honor guard unit was coming back from a funeral in northern Washington. We stopped at a bar and grill for lunch, and we were refused service. They said our military ID's weren't good enough, neither were our home state driver's licenses, and they didn't want our kind in there anyway. That was in Seattle.

Thugs? I think you're mistaken, ace. These are peace activists.

They didn't look intelligent enough to even comprehend the meaning of "peace activist"... they looked to me like a bunch of stupid, worthless fuckwads who should be summarily executed and done with.

IMHO, of course.

What Cedarford said!

oh shit, I'm going to agree with Cedarford about something.

I feel dirty.

Lipstick, tell me about your feet again

Give them tight pussy, free food, loose shoes, a warm place to shit and a chance to beat or kill people and the animals are happy.

Sounds like a political philosophy to me.

Right on, Cedarford. Exactly right.

Ugh, I don't feel well.

spatter some ape brains

Ape brains???

Ape BRAINS???

Oh man, I'm on the floor...

I'm just f'ing DYING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cedarford's post deleted for not-even-close-to-subtle racism.

Jesus, please try to exercise some amount of discretion in the comments.

One word : ArmaGlide™

now, now Can't we all just get along? I'm sure there is some reasonable explantion for this whole thing. Perhaps the young boys had too many twinkies and maybe there mothers abused them when they were young. We must understand that violence only happens when you've done something to provoke it. There are no evil people in this world, only misunderstood people.

Nancy,

Good call - the TwinkieDefense™ worked for me.

I officially retract my almost agreement, having just comprehended the racist overtones.

I'm slow. I rode the little bus.

Apologies.

Local news says the two guys you have highlighted with arrows were accosting and groping some females when the guys that ended up in the hospital tried to help the females.

I am shocked to see these nice young peaceful democrats fists attacked by the imperialist jaws of these violent soldiers. Obviously a case of voter intimidation and a violation of the voting rights act of 1965. Why these fine young democrats fists were attcked so violently by the soldiers jaws that the nasty nazi soldiers jaws were boken. I hope the fists heal up soon.

First I’d catch them, then I’d open up that special can of whop-ass I’ve been saving. After that, I’d throw them in jail and throw away the fu**ing key.

Time to get medieval.

The moonies have some new heroes to look up to. Maybe these thugs will make a trip down to Crawford.

Hey, Real Tony, I thought I trademarked that!

Note that this post comes right on the heels of Cedarford's noctural emission in the previous thread about "inner city animal barbarians." I question the timing.

And while I'm questioning timing, I note that Ace recently resurrected his legendary "duck" post, and right afterwards Kos comes out saying he has a double-secret plan -- which he cannot reveal at this time -- for doing down the DLC.

Ace, I've warned you before about being careful with your powers . . .

I'm in the Sea-Tac area and have heard NOTHING about this. Not now or when it first occured.

Now...had the perps been white and the G.I's black, it would be national news for weeks.

Tell me it wouldn't...go on, I dare ya.

There's three more black men destined [back] to prison.

This is just the sort of pointless violence Bill Cosby keeps trying to get the black community to address...yet it continues to fall on deaf ears.

What a waste.

Kos reminds me of the lead replicant in Blade Runner...a toy that doesn't realize that it is broken.

Poor deluded Kos doesn't realize that its his KosBats™ that are "radioactive" to the electorate.

I'm betting that he winds up with, in baseball terms, the Golden Sombrero™

Because the soldiers race isn't mentioned, how much you wanna bet they were white dudes...

Who gives a rat's behind what race either party is? Would you feel better if the GIs were black?

And--for those of you who don't know-- yes, I'm black, an AF retiree, a conservative and, yes, I hope this a-hole gets his butt kicked by a bunch of Marines before he gets his butt kicked in prison. And sometimes misbehavior *is* about race--or rather, culture.

This isn't. There should be more people who can tell the difference.

Who video tapes this kind of stuff????!!!!

It's bad enough something like this happens, but to have not one, but two people filming it rather than calling the cops, or God forbid, coming to their defense, actually boggles me.

Holy shit... this is wrong on so many levels.

I'm old enough to remember (as a small child) the Kitty Genovese incident.

It was one of those things that sticks with a kid for the rest of their life.

I go out of my way to avoid confrontation, but there are times when it is necessary to just wade in screaming like a banshee and back it up with your body if need be. Most malefactors seem to back down when you look frothing, crazed, and truly ready to cancel their ticket if they don't.

Juliette said, "Who gives a rat's behind what race either party is? Would you feel better if the GIs were black?"

The answer to the first question is, "People who have to be watchful and estimate their danger when abroad in a city care about every fact that might help them do so."

The answer to the second question is, "If by 'you,' you mean readers of other races, and by 'better' you mean 'a little less fearful that a lot of black men despise them for their race,' then the answer is, 'Yes.'"

Nor will I take any sh*t from you for suspecting there could be a racial dimension to this. When that sort of black man looks at a white man, I suspect he thinks, "White, therefore peaceably raised, not as aggressive, and not a street brawler. White, therefore afraid of being called racist if he fights a black guy. Easy mark. Let's totally f*ck him up in front of his girlfriend."

I've just poured my argument out over you exactly as if you were white and male, Juliette. I hope you weren't expecting anything better than equal treatment, because equal is the best you're going to get from me.

This isn't. There should be more people who can tell the difference.

Not being clairvoyant, I'm going to have to wait till the investigation is complete to draw any conclusions in this regard.

I know what I saw, and it was disturbing.

I don't know what was NOT shown on the clip.

I don't know what was said INSIDE the club.

The story that Kitty Genovese was killed while her cold, callous, uncaring neighbors looked on is not quite true.

Monica:Who video tapes this kind of stuff????!!!!
Pioneer Square is a touristy area in Seattle. Having a video camera down there, even at night, isn't too unusual.

The story that Kitty Genovese was killed while her cold, callous, uncaring neighbors looked on is not quite true.

Yet she is dead, and anyone could have intervened. Apologies for murderers and people who did nothing are in themselves a sad commentary.

Not that it makes the crime any less horrific, but the article it links to doesn't suggest that the soldiers were beaten because they were soldiers.

Al said: "Local news says the two guys you have highlighted with arrows were accosting and groping some females when the guys that ended up in the hospital tried to help the females."

The soldiers got a beating because, apparently, they helped out a couple of women who chucked a hot dog at one of the thugs.

Tony, did you even read what I linked to? The Genovese case has been used to condemn the supposed "indifference" of the American people to suffering, when it turns out there was -- of course -- more nuance and stuff to the case. But it's handy for propagandists, and willing absorbers of propaganda. In the meantime an entire neighborhood of people was tarnished. But who cares about them, right? Only dead people matter.

I'm not American, but i suspect Seattle is one of those places with "though" gun laws, right? Call me Harry Callahan, but had that happened in Texas someone would have pulled over in his car and let loose a few "caps", as they say, in these animals asses.

This assault actually happened on July 31. Although I naturally sympathize with the soldiers, there is nothing so far that indicates that the men were in uniform or that their attackers knew they were Iraq veterans.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/237930_fight25.html

Unfortunately, Pioneer Square has a history of pretty nasty violence. In 2001, a Mardi Gras celebration turned into a full-blown riot, and a 20-year-old man, Kristopher Kime, was killed. He had stopped to help a woman who was being attacked. Someone broke a bottle over his head, and then a group of thugs descended on him, stomping in his skull. More than 70 other people were hurt. Police arrested more than 40 people, thanks mainly to videotapes of the scene. Most of the violence was black on white. The whole thing triggered this wave of hand-wringing in Seattle over racial issues.

"This assault actually happened on July 31. Although I naturally sympathize with the soldiers, there is nothing so far that indicates that the men were in uniform or that their attackers knew they were Iraq veterans."

Is there a point in there somewhere?

A couple of thoughts:

1. The fact that the victims were veterans doesn't make the thugs any more evil, because their actions already maxed out their accounts just on face value alone. It does, however, make the victims' plight more tragic.

2. As for the commenter who argued that the people who videotaped this event should have been wading in to the fray instead, do you know who the videotapers were? Do you know how able-bodied? If it was someone whose intervention could have altered the outcome, I'd agree with you. But by keeping calm and videotaping it, these people have given the police a damned good chance to ID the perps and hopefully bring them to justice.

Holy shit, this post is like a Rorschach blot. How the hell is this supposed to be a racial issue?

Well, it is most certainly a crime inspired by (black on white) racism.

But it most certainly shouldn't matter to the law, either.

Every goddamn thing that happens in this country is first cast through the lens of race, Hubris.

Last night, I was flipping through the channels, and some program on PBS was powerstroking a story from segregation days. It showed a room full of white guys hassling a black kid, who looked like he'd been beat up. (I'm assuming this was a true story.)

Nobody has ever questioned the usefullness of these things. Incessant and continuous drumbeating on what happened in the past, reminding a segment of our citizenry that they were once horribly discriminated against, and reminding the other segments that their racial forfathers were the ones who did it.

I've never seen anybody put that together with the black-on-white violence like we see here. On some level, it's hard to blame them. If I were constantly reminded that my Irish ancestors were shafted by the Brits, I might have been just a bit more "understanding" of the IRA shits. After all, those Brits deserve a bit of what they did to "my people".

If I never hear "we must learn from the past" again, it will be too soon. We never learn anything. The past sucks. Leave it there.

Years ago I was involved in a similar 5 on 2 incident but fortunately was not knocked out and was able to extricate myself with the least amount of damage as was possible. I made note to myself afterwards to not open my mouth unless the odds were a little more even. I am still working on that.

There is no call for this these no good punks should be cuaght and have their arms cut off or at least be given a good caning like what they did to that youth in singapore a few years back and screw the whinning liberal jackasses

Hubris - you are correct. This isn't a racial issue though it's being made out to be. Criminal dumbfucks are criminal dumbfucks, no matter the color of their skin.

I watched the video and still can't determine the race of the victims - not that it matters. lauraw - do you have more info?

Did you all see that asshole stealing the victim's shoes toward the end of the video? Nice.

Criminal dumbfucks are criminal dumbfucks, no matter the color of their skin.

Exactly. The same horrible shit could easily have gone down outside a rural bar in my home state of West Virginia. Hillbilly-on-hillbilly crime.

Juliette, I agree with you.

All that matters is that this was an act of aggressive violence. The race of the perpetrators or victims is irrelevant to the fact and magnitude of the moral and legal transgression involved here. Aggressive violence of this sort is intolerable. It should not be brushed aside, minimized, excused or downplayed. If someone had been on the scene with an appropriate weapon and had killed these thugs as an act of defense, I would vote to give him a medal. Good riddance.

that's disturbing. Hopefully they catch these guys and send em to jail. And hopefully there's some vets in jail to take care of em. I wouldn't wanna be a black guy in a jail cell with a bunch of vets if I had just beaten some soldiers returning from Iraq.

They would surely deserve whatever is thrust onto them, or into. Whatever.

Ken, the point is that some are playing the story up as "These assholes beat up a couple of soldiers!", as if their identity as soldiers had a crucial bearing on how the incident unfolded.

As Brian B. said just after you, it makes the victims' plight more tragic, but doesn't necessarily tell us any more about the perpetrators.

I disagree with Brian, however, in saying that the thugs "maxed out" their evil-doers account. I think there would be an added dimension of moral depravity if the thugs knew the guys had put their lives on the line in Iraq and yet still sought to inflict serious bodily harm.

It's the difference between, were these guys targetted because they were soldiers, or were they a couple of guys who got in a fight and just happened to be soldiers?

No compos, I don't have any more info. than you do.

I admit to having biased ideas about urban black youths from having lived in a certain neighborhood.

There are very racist and ignorant ones among them that will target white women for racist sexual assaults, and white men for racist ass whippings. And the ass whippings are more fun if the guy's wife or girlfriend is watching helplessly.

This scenario, with the hotdog thrown at them as the spark, would be just too delicious for the guys that I remember to pass up.

I'm sorry if that's not PC; I want to re-emphasize that I am talking about a specific social set of racist thugs, just like there's a small subset of poor whites who are racist thugs.

I'd be surprised if the victims were black, really. Sorry!

I can't believe I live in the US. It might take a while, but these guys will get theirs...watch...they better watch their six!

Relevant portion from the PI article:

A group of people were in line to enter Larry's Nightclub on First Avenue South when a man groped one of the women in the group. Her friend, another woman, confronted the man, and he groped her as well.

The second woman's husband stepped in, and an argument began. At that point, Whitcomb said, the group decided to leave without going to the club and walked away. But one of the women grabbed a hotdog and threw it at the man who had groped her.

Ok, here's what's buggin me. Two military men fresh from the theater of war, size things up, see they're outnumbered, outgunned, and decide the best thing is a withdraw from the hot-zone with a face saving argument - a retreat to a safe area protecting themselves and their embedded non-coms.

But no. The chick. She decides she's gonna toss a hot dog, knowing full well that whatever happens, it ain't her that's gonna pay. Once again, a women writes a check knowing she won't have to cover.

I guarantee you, as that dog flipped through the air, the men thought, "Well, I'm gonna get my ass kicked." And the women thought, "Well, the men are gonna get their asses kicked." And so it was.

Once again, nature makes a mockery of the notion of equal treatment of the sexes. Men have the right to get their asses kicked; women have the right to see to it that their men get their asses kicked.

Women, if you really loved us like you say you do, you'd stop doing stupid shit will obviously end up with us getting our asses kicked trying to protect you from the consequences of those actions. Please, just think a little.

Bill Clinton's midnight basketball program would have prevented this.

This kind of reminds me of something that happened nearby a couple years ago.

Two cars full of women were looking for a parking spot at a shopping center.
One spot became a bone of contention between them and the women argued with each other from their respective cars. It got heated.

Then.

One of the women threw an orange peel at a woman in the other car. That was it. The women flew out of their cars and attacked each other.
It became an all-out brawl that drew police to the scene.

Tony, did you even read what I linked to?

Every word.

I guess I just have a non-nuanced view of this sort of thing. Excuse me for having a moral upbringing in a rural area where people who live near each other actually help each other out in times of need.

Tony,

Beware of the hasty generalization.

Sometimes those city slickers help each other out too. There were some good examples around 9/11/01.

I'm surprised there aren't carloads from Fort Lewis (20 miles south) out looking to settle this score right now.

Bill Clinton's midnight basketball program would have prevented this.

LOL!!!!!!

Ace deleted my past post, but it was the same thing as the Seattle news media did to avoid the "offensive details and racial hate crimes" of the sexual assault on the 2 women and the brutal beatings of their boyfriends by inner city thugs.

Just as off mark is Roy Midge, who blames the women for reacting in a way that "precipitated the fight" after 3 buffed up ghetto thugs grabbed their breasts and asses. "One of them threw the hot dog that started the fight!!! "( after having her breast grabbed and being called a white bitch 'ho)

Yes, women getting their asses and breasts grabbed by total strangers, violent criminals, in public - then acting adversely are the "root cause" of "misunderstandings" such as this.

Jacarutu :

Nor will I take any sh*t from you for suspecting there could be a racial dimension to this.

You will take whatever I dish out or you can ignore it. It's your choice. Whether you like it or not, however, is not my problem.

Now as to your argument...

When that sort of black man looks at a white man, I suspect he thinks, "White, therefore peaceably raised, not as aggressive, and not a street brawler.

But, like the rest of us, you only guessing, and with only your apparent prejudices rather than your logic. When that sort of "man" looks at anyone, "straight" (meant in the law-abiding sense) or not, he's looking for weakness. That's how predators operate, regardless of color or culture.

I've just poured my argument out over you exactly as if you were white and male, Juliette. I hope you weren't expecting anything better than equal treatment, because equal is the best you're going to get from me.

Well it's so comforting to know that you bring the identical quality of argument for all and sundry. You are hereby granted a ghetto pass, good for slipping by every sort of black man unmolested.

Don't bother thanking me.

Juliette said, "But, like the rest of us, you only guessing...."

First of all, it's "you are only guessing." Secondly, I'm not just guessing; you merely guessed that I was guessing. I've heard the rhetoric of the "skinny white boy" all my life; I've heard all about the "pasty-faced," the "vanilla," the "whitebread." I know that being studious is "acting white." I've been reminded many times that "white men can't jump." I know about their "little dicks."

If your point is that I can't read minds, then go make your argument to someone who thinks that I can. If your point is that I'm merely conjuring my opinion out of thin air when I suppose that black attackers especially despise their white victims, then the insults I've heard all my life refute you.

Jacarutu:

We (white folk) hear quite a bit about how we have no appreciation for the suffering of, and invisible discrimination towards, minorities. Most of that seems like people playing the victim card, but when Juliette speaks on race, I listen. She is reasonable, rationale, and qualified. I wouldn't pick or perpetuate a fight with her, because she's on the side of the good guys (i.e., those who truly wish for equality and peace among races).

Please consider a less confrontational attitude.

Aaahhh - look at the effect of 4 Bass Ale's. I clearly meant "rational" vice "rationale." I'll bet an odd number of beers will do the trick . . .

Ah, you're missing a very important dimension to the incident. Of course, the fact that these soldiers were veterans of the Iraq War is crucial. Even if (especially if) they were out of uniform or not easily identified as such.

Don't you perceive that the barrage of vicious anti-war speech created a cliimate of hate such that soldiers - or those who might seem like soldiers to the ignor- pardon me, easily-inflamed masses would trigger this sort of violent attack?

Jacarutu:

That's no way to treat a lady, and one should always enter a discussion with respect for other participants.

As to your arguments, they seem to be: 1) the race of the participants is important because it is a datum used in identifying dangerous elements in society; and 2) some blacks hate whites and find them particularly easy prey.

1) is inarguable since you are using the to form your personal worldview. I think that it's a worldview that is unsupported by crime statistics and by the experiences of others, but if that's the kind of information you think you need to have to survive on the streets, then by all means file it away.

2) is also inarguable. It is almost certainly true that some percentage of blacks hate whites and would seize an opportunity to attack them based on purely racial motives. The question is: how big is that percentage? Is it really significant? Again, crime statistics suggest that it is not.

Neither of these "arguments" is worth much, and certainly not worth being rude or disrespectful to a veteran, a lady, and an active supporter of conservative causes.

In the post of August 25, 2005 09:20 PM, Cedarford criticized Ray Midge for his critique of the woman who supposedly threw a hotdog at one of the men who groped her. Speaking ironically, he said, "Yes, women getting their asses and breasts grabbed by total strangers, violent criminals, in public - then acting adversely are the 'root cause' of 'misunderstandings' such as this." But Midge never tried to minimize the attack as being the result of a misunderstanding. Nor do I see any sign that he was trying to excuse the attackers. He claims that some women carelessly stir up violent men because they themselves don't contemplate having to fight. I wonder if Cedarford would like to go back and address the point that Ray Midge actually made, rather than knock down arguments that no one is trying to uphold.

In his reply of 8:47 a.m., Geoff conceded two of my points as being inarguable. Then he vaguely claimed the authority of "statistics" in order to minimize the significance of my points, yet he didn't cite any statistic or any source for a statistic. Of course, I admit that neither his concessions nor the lack of backup for the authority of the claimed statistics does anythng to prove my points.

Jacarutu:

I can see that when you "reason without respect" you mean without respect for reason.

About the race thing-- I was watching the video as they played it over and over again on Hannity & Colmes last night. I could SWEAR that a close up of one of the victims showed clearly that he was a black man. Looked to me like both the victims were other black men. I doubt race was a motivator in this crime. And, those guys doing the assault don't exactly look to me like a bunch of hippy protester morons. They look more like gangbanger morons. [My own prejudices kick in].

It looks to me like the person shooting the video may possibly have been a participant, or at least a friend of the attackers. I noticed that there was another guy also filming with a camcorder as someone else noted above, and he looks to me like an active participant filming this atrocity with glee. I also noticed another guy taking cell phone camera pictures while one of the attackers pose an unconscious victim.

This whole film clip reminds me of the war in Iraq in a different way-- those guys did to the victims what a mob of terrorist sympathisers would do to captured Americans in a place like Fallujah [remember the bridge incident?] or in Somalia.

I'm not saying these guys knew they were soldiers, I think they probably did not know. But it gives me chills to think that the same atmosphere of mayhem and terror that gripped a place like Fallujah exists in some of our own cities.

And the laws in these places are set up so that if you obey the law, you usually can't even carry a piece to defend yourself. If only the victims had been armed!

We must get a handle on this situation fast.

Does anyone know if the victims survived the attack? That was the main thing I missed that I wanted to know when I saw the clip last night.

Jacarutu :

Picking nits about typos is unworthy of a decent debate. Are you perfect? Me neither.

If your point is that I'm merely conjuring my opinion out of thin air when I suppose that black attackers especially despise their white victims, then the insults I've heard all my life refute you.

If you pay attention to such things--as I'm guessing you do--you'll notice that black criminals' primary victims are also black. So, for example, whether a black murder victim (of a black murderer) is depised less than a white victim doesn't make the former any less dead. (You can probably guess that I'm against hate-crime legislation.)

Also, were you insulted or were you physically attacked? (Your comment doesn't make that clear.) Heck, I've been insulted plenty of times--by you right here, as a matter of fact. Big whoop. Physical attacks, however, are a different matter.

Some niggas.. not all niggas.... are complete scum.