Meh,

It's a stretch, we have gone from Rove shopping the story outing her as an act of political revenge to

"Rove mentioned wilsons wife (not by name) in a phone call initiated by a journalist who wanted to talk about something else and mentioned Wilsons report, at the same time, on the same planet, there was a memo that indicated she was covert which Rove should have read"

Of course, if she was so super duper secret, how come she was in the phone book, and when Novak called about her, the CIA were happy to talk to him?

Maybe the guy answering the phones never saw the memo either...

Ever the optimist, Ace, ever the optimist.

I assume the headline is an attempt to make vonkreedon die of happiness?

To keep this the "pessimistic speculation" thread, I offer you this truly horrifying bit from Powerline:

(But the wise and experienced Democrat suspects (as I do) that the next nominee will be Gonzales himself).

"Ever the optimist, Ace, ever the optimist."

Realist. We can argue about this, but there is definitely smoke here.

Smoke doesn't mean fire necessarily, sure.

But smoke usually means you should be a little worried until you find its source and confirm it's not fire.

I'm going to wait until it comes out on video.

Ace, the only smoke I still see is the smoke Dems are tryinig to blow up our collective asses. I agree with Ring - such a total stretch, not worth thinking too much about.

Of course, now that I've said that, I hope I don't live to regret these words.

I'm not saying he's dirty, I'm saying... well, let's not get too locked in to a position here.

Remember how ridiculous the Clinton defenders looked when they kept backpedalling from it didn't happen/she's a stalker to almost nothing happened/he technically told the truth to it's all about a blow-job/it doesn't affect his job performance?

I don't want to do that myself.

I'm not eager to turn on Karl Rove. I do think this is a rather ticky-tack violation of the law, if it even is a violation of the law, and I don't presume he's responsible.

Still, it's a ticky-tack violation of an IMPORTANT law, and if he did break the law, techincally or more than technically, or lied about what he did or said to the grand jury or prosecutors... well, I'm not going down the Klinton Kool-Aid Kwenchers road.

It'll suck, but I'll have to cut him loose. Your mileage may vary.

If Rove broke the law, then I hope that he gets convicted.

In the real world though, most of this is just passing annoyance to the public. They sat in traffic thinking they were going to see a spectacular multicar pile-up and now they have finally gotten near the accident scene, they realize it's just a cop directing traffic around a stalled car. " Well that was really annoying dear. We may still make it in time for the movie. You know, I wasn't really in a hurry to see Tom Cruise f*ck up War of the Worlds, but then after seeing the INXS crap last night, I'm hoping the aliens don't catch a cold."

It's only slightly less convoluted than Iran-Contra, which, as we all know, worked out so well for the Democrats. Yep, they got Dukakis elected on that one!

NEXT!

Ace, you're not thinking clearly on this one.

The 'scandal' came out last year. Do you think Rove lied to Bush about what laws he may or may not have violated? If not, do you think Bush is stupid enough not to have eased Rove out with the term change, as he eased out Powell et al? This isn't Clinton, who obviously could never ease himself out.

Or do you think Rove lied to the grand jury when he said he first found this stuff out from another press source?

I'm not buying any of it.

"To be honest, I've sort of thought Karl Rove would be pinned on this since Lawrence O'Donnell first hyped it. No particular reason, except my general belief that most rumors are true, or nearly true."

Ace, I heard you were gay; just a rumor though.

Maguire isn't convincing either. Does Rove even actually have a security clearance?

His main theory is that NSC saw the document and Rove was "involved" in managing the press side of this stuff, so... Eh. That's a stretch. Rove's email to Hadley looks like that of a relative outsider filled in on general points, not someone who's been poring over classified nitty-gritty reports.

The whole flare-up looks like another intramural backstab from Foggy Bottom to me.

Does Rove even actually have a security clearance?

Of course he does; how could a top aid to the President NOT have some sort of security clearance?

Maguire mentions he was specifically cleared to read stuff about Iraq.

Ace is right. Doing too much Rove defending is foolish. We don't know. Rove could very well have intentionally or unintentionally violated the law here. What we must not forget is the reason that Rove may have done it. Valerie Plame and Joe Wilson coordinated a bogus fact finding mission to discredit the administration's causus belli, then lied both about the information that was uncovered and lied about the Vice President's office's involvement. They conceivably both thought that they could hide behind Plame's covert status, thus making it impossible for the administration to correct the record. In that way they are not that unlike insurgents in Iraq who fire on our soldiers from mosques. In order to fire back the soldier must risk defiling a mosque and damaging our cultural sensitivity perception thereby fueling the insurgency.

If Rove broke the law, he broke the law and, yes, he's gotta go. But the issue hasn't changed, it's still whether Rove knew or should have known Plame's covert status when he talked to Novak and Cooper.

So what's today's new info? NSC reviewed a State dept. INR memo mentioning Plame as sending Wilson on the trip. The INR memo was classifed (dispute over all or just part) as was the NSC briefing prepared from such.

So how's this tie to Rove? Well, someone on NSC COULD have been in contact with Rove while preparing their briefing memo - that could be how Rove knew Plame was in CIA/sent husband.

Oh.

Still uncertain:
1. Whether there ACTUALLY was any contact from NSC to Rove (or did he see their briefing) and whether Plame's status was ever told to Rove by the NSC contact during such.
2. Whether the NSC told Rove "But that's classified" (or otherwise given info/should have known it was)

COULD the answer to both above be yes? Of course. And I agree, if so, he's out. But what is there to make one think so? Might Rove's be lying - he didn't learn Plame's status from reporters? Sure. I'll need to see more tying him to it though. Today's info is just a plausible theory. Been a lot of theories so far.

"Still, even if Plame's cover was so thin, so transparent, and so ineffectual that they donwgraded this "secret" to the non-secret "Secret" level, that would still mean the information is classified (barely, but still classified), and that anyone disclosing it, knowing that it was classified (or who reasonably could be said to have ought to have known) would be in violation of the law."

Ace,

Stuff classified "secret" isn't "barely" classified. The war plans for an entire US Army division are normally classified as "secret".

I have been a Top Secret Control Officer (and custodian of other classified materials) the (S) marking indicates that the highest level of classification of any information in the paragraph is SECRET. It does not mean that everything in the paragraph is classified at that level or at all. Information in that paragraph should be treated as secret, unless you know that it is not classified at that level.
In the published reports in this case, Rove, in response to a direct question, confirmed that he had heard the same rumors as the reporter. That's not the same as divulging classified material - as Rove was commenting on the rumors, and did not specifically state that he knew for a fact that Plame was Wilson's wife.
We're wasting pixels on this. Last week it was "Rove divulged a Covert CIA Agent's identity"; this week it's "Rove divulged classified information". Anyone else notice the goalposts are in motion?

I have and do handle "Classified Documents", let’s get something straight. The document he's mentioning would have a BIG red hard cover that says "SECRET", then the first page at the top would be who classified it, and the instructions for care and when to declassify it. Each and every page at the top and bottom would have all cap's "SECRET". Second, each and every single paragraph would begin with, in para's, (u), (c), (s), or (ts), alerting the reader that the paragraph contains either unclassified or classified info. Each and every paragraph. If there were a secret paragraph, then the whole document is classified secret.

Again, the first page would have who classified it, and the disposition for the document(s). Second, there would be tracers, that give the classified document a paper trail, one that could/should alert whomever, each and every person that received a copy of the document(s). If Evil Genius read it, it should be easy to prove, because, someone signed the tracer for the documents, and a paper trail should be available.

Believe it or not, Uncle Sam really does have procedures in place, if they are followed, that keep up with, what we call, Classified Documents.

Bird

Well, if Rove gets dismissed over the gob-smackingly vile crime of confirming that he heard a rumor, then Sandy Berger should be facing hard time.

Besides... if I remember Novak's column (or his followup) correctly, he asked the freakin' CIA themselves, and THEY confirmed she worked for 'em.

I doubt that Karl Rove was stupid enough to commit perjury, lie to the president about it, and then sign a release to the two reporters who could expose him.

Come on everyone! This is a farce! Are you telling me she was a covert agent working out of Langley every day for five years! Once you go to Langley to work you are NOT covert and are NEVER covert again!!!!!

It's a bullshit non story and if it's all they have on Rove they are in trouble.

Ace wrote, "Still, even if Plame's cover was so thin, so transparent, and so ineffectual that they donwgraded this "secret" to the non-secret "Secret" level, that would still mean the information is classified."

I cannot imagine the CIA goes around downgrading anyone's cover status from code-word to Secret. "Gee, Bob, your cover is getting kind of thin lately... mind if we downgrade your NOC status from 'Imperial Goose' to just Secret?" To echo a commenter from Captain's Quarters, Plame's name showing up in a paragraph marked with a mere S, at the very least, is proof the author did not believe she was a NOC, and it certainly is evidence that she was not.

BigBird wrote, "Believe it or not, Uncle Sam really does have procedures in place, if they are followed, that keep up with, what we call, Classified Documents." I'd like to believe in the System, with rules that are obeyed up and down the line, but my experience has been that the higher-placed the person, the less they take the classification system seriously. I've known several corporate officers who were notoriously lax about security (of course, I knew about them because they were caught... and had their wrists slapped.) Famously, LBJ spilled the beans on the SR-71... but then, he was the President and had the authority to declassify anything he wanted. I would guess that there are many folks inside the Beltway who either have the authority, or believe they have the authority, to declassify any information they want. The law governing the handling of classified information is for peons like you and me.

Which is one reason this whole Plame sideshow is disgustingly hypocritical for all parties. The press feigns shock at the leaking of classified information. The White House is obligated to act as if these are serious charges. Congressmen, some of whom are on record outing covert agents, express deep concern about the purported outing of Plame. It's all a high-stakes Kabuki powerplay for all these people. I wish they would cut it out and get on with more important business. Who do they think they're fooling?

BBB

Amplification: I wrote: "I would guess that there are many folks inside the Beltway who either have the authority, or believe they have the authority, to declassify any information they want."

Browsing the US Code, it seems like there is an explicit loophole in the laws governing classified material:

Title 50, Ch 15, Subch VI, § 437 reads:
"Except as otherwise specifically provided, the provisions of this subchapter shall not apply to the President and Vice President, Members of the Congress, Justices of the Supreme Court, and Federal judges appointed by the President."

I will leave it to your consciences whether various staffers interpret this escape clause applying to them.

BBB