I am glad to see you posting again, but now my link that has been up for two days at the top of the page gets bumped down. It was really cool having my name be the first word of your top of the page post for two days. Oh well, back to obscurity.

http://ace.mu.nu/archives/062540.php

Let Geoff do this blog from now on.

Comparing America to a "piece of ass" and Sweden to a "hoochie" just isn't attractive to read.

The Hillary thing had to do with the pledge. She actually said something like I pledge allegiance to the america that can be. It was disgusting but totally typical.

The folks who end up married to each other for 50 years are the ones who love each other, warts and all. They recognize each others flaws and choose to live with them until Death do us part.

The ones who divorce and run around on each other, are usually the folks who think they can change the other into a more perfect person. And when they do, they grow bored with each other and end up leaving each other. Theirs is a short term love of their partner (and by extension of this allusion, their country).

Who do you want running your country? The person who loves it for everything it is and everything it isn't. Or the one who will only love it if everything turns out exactly the way they want it and only when the country does exactly what they say.

One sounds like True Love. The other sounds like an Islamic republic to me.

Subsunk

And they will never love America as it is ,because "doing good has no end"- ergo America will never be good enough to love patriotically as long as one malcontent is bitching somewhere.

from the movie Striped:

"We're Americans--we've been kicked out of every civilized country in the world!" (or to that effect).

Real Americans literally built this country with their bare hands to be a land of freedom. Our country is "we the people," which means it has our strengths and weaknesses. Sure, point out things that can be fixed (along the lines of "You've got spinach in your teeth") and fix them, but stop harping on what simply IS.

GWB understands this and lives this, which is why I respect him so much.

"'Progressives' will often say that they love America so darned much that they feel compelled to constantly point out its flaws in order to improve it."

I think we can call this phenomena, "waving the burning flag."

When America's enemies actually "like" our country, that pretty much means that it no longer exists.

A great comment by Geoff - glad you have highlighted it.

Wait a minute, wait a minute;
the way I'm reading this, it almost sounds like I'm NOT supposed to be riding my husband like a shrill harpy, destroying his very identity, and bending him to my will and whims.

That can't be right.

PERFECTLY said.

Slacker.

Cheers,
Dave at Garfield Ridge

Warts and all, conservatives are smart enough to realize this is the most beautiful, dirty-sexy piece of ass we'll ever get.

You're speaking my language, baby. ROWR. It's not just naughty, it's poignant at the same time. Hard to pull that one off.

Whatever supriority you think you have is just shit swirling downd the toilet:

http://takeittokarl.blogspot.com/2005/06/active-iraq-soldier-karl-come-over.html

What is your problem? Your people (Bush, Rove, Rumsfeld, etc.) have made a mess of the world and instead of pressuring them to correct their mistakes, you spend your time fantasizing about what liberals want.

If you're as clueless about women as you are about liberals, you must have one unhappy Mrs. Ace of Spades at home.

I can tell you more about SE Asia than I can Europe, and I've studied the Middle East more than I have Scandinavia, my ancestral home. I'm sure the liberals you're talking about exist, and I'm sure they're matched — one-for-one — by American Thatcherites.

Since "conservatives" hold all three branches of the American government, why don't you focus on using the power you have to fix the economy (not SocSec which is doing just fine, thankyou), instead of running around carping about the people who aren't in charge, and have next to zero impact on American policy.

It's like listening to Lyndon Johnson whine about how Barry Goldwater supporters are losing the war in Vietnam.

That hot hoochie Sweden is currently in an abusive relationship with a couple of Muslim drifters.

It ain't a piece of ass...it's kids dying when they don't have to. Loving your country means expecting great things from it, like even after being attacked we still will hold personal liberty sacred and won't stoop to the level of the people who have attacked us.

Bottom line, those running the government care about a lot of things (MONEY!!!), but getting misty eyed about their love for 'America' probably isn't one of them. But, they certainly are glad that you are so easily controlled because that makes their job so much easier. But, a few more years and things will change. They always do because our Democracy is able to shed its blights.

Ace Say: "But again and again this is what the left tells us constitutes their "love of country." They show their love by obsessing over the flaws of the supposed object of their affection."

Upon which the preceding posters obssess over the flaws of the supposed object of their affection.

What hypocrisy.

It is so easy for conservatives to claim the moral high ground when the abstraction of "Patriotism" is embodied by politics that support your own world view.

Where is the conservative "Patriotism" when it comes funding our schools and libraries, providing decent and affordable medical care and medicines to our people, upholding Social Security, fighting for equal rights for everyone, protecting our environment, ensuring religious freedom (which includes the freedom from religion? Huh, where is it? Conservative will bash and denigrate all those ideals and I say to you; that is unpatriotic!

The right is using patriotism as a smokescreen to try and suppress dissenting views. If you deny this, well in my opinion, you are full of shit or deluded, pure and simple. This "war" is a part of your political agenda not mine. I don't want one more U.S. soldier, or one more Iraqi civilian to die in this war - I don't want anymore of our men and women coming home crippled or maimed for life. It is a war based on what I believe to be lies and deciept. What happened to Osama Bin Laden? That was the war we were supposed to be fighting...

Quit defaming the character of people who disagree with you. It's ugly and unpatriotic.

"The right is using patriotism as a smokescreen to try and suppress dissenting views"

As opposed to the left which uses the courts, the media, the education system, and the law to suppress their opposition?

The right is using patriorism to unite the country in the face of an enigmatic transnational enemy that does not adhere to the rules of war civilized nations agreed to.

There is nothing wrong with dissent per say, however when the bullets are flying and people are dying, constantly harping on your sides alleged misdeeds while ignoring the crimes of the enemy is unpatriotic and in fact treasonous as it gives aid and comfort to the enemy. Contrary to the Vietnam myth, war protestors were not heroes, they were selfish traitors who directly ensured that millions of people would be murdered, and millions mored condemed to lives of oppression. They were unwilling to accept the obligations that living in this country requires and took the cowards way out.

It is a fact that many on the left have said they wanted the US to loose this war so that it would be "humilated" and no longer be a super power or act "unilaterally".
It is the highest act of patriotism to call traitors on it, and expose them to the light, not only that, it is your duty as a citizen.

Didn't liberals in the house and senate get a vote on whether or not to go to war in Iraq? I'm so sick of hearing how about this is a conservative war over money. It seems to me the liberals want to back out of liberating a country that deserves to be free.

Izzadem neatly summarizes the left's position: "The right is using patriotism as a smokescreen to try and suppress dissenting views."

This mantra, repeated by the left for at least 3 years, underscores the gap in comprehension between the two sides. My real problem with dissent is that I believe:
1) that the fastest way to resolve the violence in Iraq is to present an indomitable, united front, emphasizing the inevitability of a democratized Iraq;
2) that dissent undermines that impression, provides propaganda fodder for enemy, and encourages the Islamic extremists to prolong the conflict;
3) that dissent weakens the impact of our overall Middle East strategy, increasing the likelihood of future conflict; and
4) that to the extent that dissent must be expressed, that it should be couched in rational, considered terms (this increases the impact on the right, while minimizing the negative effects mentioned above). Too many of the left's criticisms have been lies, misrepresentations, speculations, or hyperbolic inflation of the actual situation.

So every time I see "dissent" in the media or blogs, my heart sinks. Another soundbite for the enemy, another surge in Saudi recruits, another month of casualties...

Stephen Decatur, the famous US Navy hero of the War with the Barbary Pirates, said it all with his immortal quote:

"Our country. In her intercourse with foreign nations may she always be in the right; but our country right or wrong!"

It is inconcievable that a liberal Democrat would take this view today. They LOVE attacking this country in any armed conflict where a Republican is in power. As Izzadem shows, one is a "partiot" only when one supports their utopian ideals.

Where is the conservative "Patriotism" when it comes funding our schools and libraries, providing decent and affordable medical care and medicines to our people, upholding Social Security, fighting for equal rights for everyone, protecting our environment, ensuring religious freedom (which includes the freedom from religion? Huh, where is it? Conservative will bash and denigrate all those ideals and I say to you; that is unpatriotic!

Yes, we conservatives sit around daily denigrating school funding and religious freedom. What the hell are you talking about? Just because we conservatives don't want to write blank checks to the educational system and believe in a balance between environmental protection, economic growth, and property rights, we're denigrating those values?

Besides, I don't remember the Constitution saying much about public schooling, affordable medical care, or environmental protection. They may all be good things, but they have nothing to do with patriotism one way or another.

Quit defaming the character of people who disagree with you. It's ugly and unpatriotic.

Give me a break. The whole post was about how liberals' patriotism involves loving the country they hope it will one day be, while conservatives tend to love it as is. That's not exactly an original point, and it's been made by liberals as well as conservatives. It's defaming the character of no one to say so.

And calling someone "unpatriotic" who actually is unpatriotic is not defaming their character, it's defining it. No one says you must be patriotic, but many on the left pretend to be when they rarely, if ever, take America's side on anything.

I love when these America-hating faggots get themselves all huffed up in righteous indignation when their pathology is identified and labeled correctly.

These are the same jackasses who supported and chattered excitedly over Michael Moore's peddling of conspiracy theories about our commander in chief during a time of war.

True patriots condemn this sort of filth (see Ace concerning Ed Klein's disgusting smear of Hillary Clinton) because it cheapens the very free speech we hold dear.

Where were our outraged friends when their party's leaders were generating propaganda for our enemies by using hyperbolic language and false equivalencies to compare our military men and women to Nazis?

True patriots know that there is no legitimate equivalency between Nazi Germany and the United States of America under ANY president regardless of whether we voted for him or not, and say so loudly whenever some idiot makes a comment to the contrary.

And excuse me, but aren't these the same fuckheads who regularly undermine faith in the fairness of our election process by crying about voter fraud almost every time they lose an election, then oppose passage of voter identification laws, the most simple method of preventing such alleged fraud?

True patriots never put political expediency above the long term preservation of our nation's institutions. True patriots know that, despite all of its flaws, America is truly s shining beacon of hope, prosperity, and freedom. They know that the US is responsible for bringing more good to the earth than any other country on the planet, and they never forget this even when criticizing its flaws.

All you lefty fucks who lack even one good word to say about our nation can go eat a big pile of shit for all I care. You aren't patriots. You're traitorous scum.

Let me see, if I am a liberal am I a wart or simply not a part of America that you need to love.

If everyone followed the left's definition of patriotism - I will love my country as long as I get my way - the United States would cease to be a country at all and would atomize overnight. Which may be what the left wants.

There are many many things about the United States that I dislike - abortion, judicial 'activism', teachers' unions, Michael Moore, etc etc etc, but that doesn't mean I don't love and believe in the United States. Above all, it doesn't mean that my loyalty, my patriotism, is conditioned upon my getting my way, even some of the time. And vis-a-vis third parties - other countries, the UN and now the msm (which has chosen to become a third party - a 'citizen of the world' - against the United States) my loyalty, my patriotism is absolute.

Eddie,

How stupid. By that reasoning I need to love America's child molestors.

I love American despite the warts. I don't necessarily need to love the warts themselves.

Very well put Ace (and Geoff). Conditional love is really not love at all, it's loathing and manipulation.

You analogy sucks ass. Sorry.

A country is not a person. People rarely are able to change. Countries are. A country is more like a business. Imagine being on the board of a major corporation, spouting this kind of 'love it for what it is' nonsense rather than 'how can we make this a better company.'

You can't adhere to the past in the free market of ideas and expect the same results. Wells Fargo can't just say, horse drawn carriages are our heritage, and they will work for us again. Wrong.

I also question your analysis as weak as your premise is. We do not aspire to be Sweden. For most of our history, Sweden aspired to be us. You claim to love America 'warts and all' yet you seek to dismantle so much of what we have accomplished. If you loved America warts and all, you'd love the filibuster, you'd love the separation of church and state, you'd love judicial review, you'd love social security, you'd love welfare, you'd love our 100 year history of protecting the environment. You don't. Any claim that only liberals are trying to change things is ludicrous.

If you loved America as it is, you'd do nothing. You are trying to change America, not into some idealized improved America, but rather into some idealized past America that likely never existed. Either that, or it is a place we have already been and decided we did not want to have.

I would never accuse you of hating America. Frankly I don't think you have the foggiest idea what 'America' even is.

I do know that our country, as designed, is a work in progress. Our constitution does not contain any laws. Merely the mechanisms for creating laws. We are supposed to tinker with it. Your party is attempting to pass Constitutional Amendments that would inhibit the rights of our citizens. In the case of the stupid stupid flag amendment, a right that is expressly protected by another Constitutional amendment (the 1st in fact).

How you guys can say this stuff with a straight face is beyond me. Stop attacking liberals and get to work. You are on the clock you know, and so far you haven't gotten a whole lot done.

By the way, I believe that a strong loyal opposition to whichever party is in power is part of what makes this country great. America needs competing viewpoints and ideas.

They key word, however, is LOYAL.

I sure didn't enjoy dealing with 8 years of Bill Clinton running the ship, but never in that time did I accuse him of being a Nazi or a Commie. I never screeched that my freedoms were being trampled just because my side happened to be out of power. I never threatened to move to Canada. I never asserted that he wasn't a legitimate president just because he didn't receive a majority of the vote. I never made jokes about assasinating him nor did I listen to radio programs that did.

No, I simply lived my life the same as ever, occasionally made my voice heard, and marched to the polls to vote when the time came to decide the next election.

"Imagine being on the board of a major corporation, spouting this kind of 'love it for what it is' nonsense rather than 'how can we make this a better company.' "

Imagine being on the board of a major corporation and telling the press daily that your company sucks, your produ ct sucks, and you really wish you could be more like GM.

Imagine that you made ladders. And that one of them broke and a customer got hurt. Imagine then that you rushed out a press release claiming that your company's safety requirements were on par with those of a 19th century sweatshop.

Sorry, Seattle, but YOUR analogy sucks.

"The right is using patriotism as a smokescreen to try and suppress dissenting views"

What dissenting views are we trying to suppress with a patriotic smokescreen? Name them. Never mind, name just one that has actually been suppressed. I mean suppressed, not just rejected, or ignored, by a majority of Americans.

Yo, are there any lurkers out there who are afraid to express there dissenting views for fear of being called unpatriotic?

Yo, are there any lurkers out there who are afraid to express there dissenting views for fear of being called unpatriotic?

Yes, me. I think Bush is a fascist liar and the war against Iraq was a horrible mistake, but I'm terrified of being called unpatriotic. I'm shaking in my Batman boots right this minute. Please please please don't be mean to me. O God, I'm sooo scared.

Pure Herbal Viagra:

You treasonous piece of shit. Move to Canada, traitor.

The metaphor police have asked me to point out that you can't use a smokescreen to suppress things, only to conceal them.

Jeeze Warden. You are just filled with it.

Loyal to who? You? George W. Bush? Like the loyalty you all showed Clinton when you impeached him over a blow job? As if Conservative didn't attack Clinton during our military action in Kosovo. Right.

To be a loyal American is to put country ahead of all else. Including party. Whether or not I air my grievances here, or on the Senate floor, I have a duty to oppose any abuse of the institutions of this nation.

When I said, years ago, that this Iraq war was wrong, was I being unpatriotic? Don't answer. Nothing you could say would convince me that I was, any more than letting a drunk friend drive home is being good friend.

I said that a company was a better comparison than an individual person. So you assumed that I thought it was a perfect comparison. Sorry. There is no perfect comparison. That would be too simple. I merely said better. You conservatives like to simplify things. I don't know whether it is stupidity or laziness, but the world is a complex place. Believe it or not, a democratic nation is different than a private company. You bring up shareholder concerns with loyalty. We are all shareholders in America.

"I sure didn't enjoy dealing with 8 years of Bill Clinton running the ship, but never in that time did I accuse him of being a Nazi or a Commie."

I have no way of verifying this, but many many conservatives did accuse Clinton of being a commie. Many do the same of his wife to this very day. And if you are rehashing the Durbin quote, that was not directed at any politician. It wasn't even directed at service people. It was merely saying, "gee, reading this FBI report, if I didn't know better, I'd think this was Nazis." It was a quote about perception not about action.

"I never screeched that my freedoms were being trampled just because my side happened to be out of power."

Exactly what freedoms did Bill Clinton attempt to trample? I don't recall Clinton's patriot act. I do recall the bloody murder waged against the mere suggestion of a single payer health care system (which would save us billions of dollars a year).

And your side wasn't "out of power." You had both houses of Congress and the Supreme Court for most of the Clinton era. Nice try though.

"I never threatened to move to Canada."

Too bad.

"I never asserted that he wasn't a legitimate president just because he didn't receive a majority of the vote."

Many did. Plus, Clinton didn't win by a handful of votes in the most corrupt state in the Union which just happened to be run by his brother. You have to admit that had Clinton won by only a few thousand votes in a state in which Roger Clinton was governor, you'd be singing a different tune. If you can't admit this, you are fooling yourself.

"I never made jokes about assasinating (sic) him nor did I listen to radio programs that did."

Are you suggesting that conservatives never suggested that Clinton should be assassinated? Ann Coulter did. Do you read Ann? Do you condemn her?

You are a hypocrite. But we all knew that already. Why don't you go back to calling people faggots and traitors and stuff.

Are you suggesting that conservatives never suggested that Clinton should be assassinated? Ann Coulter did. Do you read Ann? Do you condemn her?

I missed that one, mind telling me when and where, or should we just take your word for it? IF she said it, then I condemn her comment. Assassination isn't a joking matter.

Exactly what freedoms did Bill Clinton attempt to trample? I don't recall Clinton's patriot act. I do recall the bloody murder waged against the mere suggestion of a single payer health care system (which would save us billions of dollars a year).

The folks at Waco would probably disagree with you on that one. Getting burned to death because they belong to the wrong religion might be considered trampling for some people.

Pull another comparison out of your ass, please

Many did. Plus, Clinton didn't win by a handful of votes in the most corrupt state in the Union which just happened to be run by his brother. You have to admit that had Clinton won by only a few thousand votes in a state in which Roger Clinton was governor, you'd be singing a different tune. If you can't admit this, you are fooling yourself.
With a name like Seattle Slough, I thought you'd be familiar with the state of Washington. Easily the more corrupt than Florida. BTW, trying to assume that everybody else is as screwed up as yourself is just sad. Who cares who the Governor is, he doesn't vote more than once.

Hey! Great site you have here! Agree with everything you say!

Except for the idiots actively rooting for an American loss in the war on terror! They can suck it-- and suck it hard!

And maybe pick up some Pure Discount Viaggro while they're at it! They probably need it, you know?!

Those who oppose the current administration are routinely called traitors and unpatriotic. What is really happening here is an attempt to confuse loving ones country with loving George Bush and his policies. Like it or not many people support the troops who are fighting the(Iraqi) war with supporting the war itself. This might have worked thirty years ago but like the GOP those on the other side learned lessons from 70's also.
Part of the original post was" loving America warts and all", if this is true then why is it that any school history curriculum that includes those warts beyond "negros came from Africa to help southern cotton growers " its called a
hate America agenda. Are you really that ashamed of our history?

Wow. Did this thread flush out the rabid America haters or what? Their arguments boil down to:

Just because we criticize everything America stands for and actively root for it to fail in the WOT doesn't mean we are traitors! How dare you question us! Hitler...Haliburton...Cheney...Enron...Fascism.... Ann Coulter...Downing Street Memo...Karl Rove...so there, you bible thumping rednecks!

Amazing.

Wow! This site is fabulous, and you guys are so cool.

But now we must take care of some business with the liberal commenters on this thread.

During our regular update and verification of your accounts, we couldn't verify your current information. Either your information has changed or it is incomplete.

If the account information is not updated to current information within 5 days then your access to bid or buy on eBay will be suspended.

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In a book entitled High Crimes and Misdemeanors: The Case Against Bill Clinton, Coulter suggested the only question in regards to Clinton was "whether to impeach or assassinate."

I don't know what you are talking about with the Waco fiasco. Those people were being arrested because they were stockpiling an arsenal of illegal weapons.

No laws were changed to prosecute them, unlike the patriot act or flag amendment, so no rights were trampled. They had no right to the weapons they were properly accused of having. They had no right to refuse the properly obtained warrants filed against them. They also had no right to fuck 12 and 13 year old girls. P.S. they also lit themselves on fire.

How is Washington the most corrupt state again? A conservative judge in a conservative county found no evidence of fraud. Florida has corruption at all levels. Bribery is the state motto. Look into it. Seriously.

And to make my point, imagine Kerry wins the E.C. by just 5 votes. Now imagine Kerry won Washington State by only 1300 votes. Now further imagine that Mark Kerry (John Kerry's fictional little brother) was the governor of Washington. Further still imagine that Mark Kerry challenged the Washington State Supreme Court demand that they recount the votes. A challenge upheld by the 5 liberal USSC justices.

Are you now satisfied with the Kerry Presidency? Of course not.

Anything else you'd like to say?

KAHG,

"Like it or not many people support the troops who are fighting the(Iraqi) war with(out) supporting the war itself."

I'm sure you also support the police with actually supporting the capture of criminals.
I'm sure that you support the criminal justice system without actually supporting the prosecution of suspects.
I'm sure that you are 100% behind the firefighters without supporting the actual extinguishing of any flames.

You are laughingly transparent.

WOW! This is such a great site. Your post is spot on!

But now we need to get to business.

During our regular update and verification of the accounts of the liberal commenters on this thread, we couldn't verify your current information. Either your information has changed or it is incomplete.

If the account information is not updated to current information within 5 days then your access to bid or buy on eBay will be suspended. We know that you liberal jerkoffs, erm, customers, would prefer to have uninterrupted service.

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P.S. Like you, we believe in the redistribution of wealth. So, please, click on the link above.

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Just kidding - do NOT click on the link above.

Hey Log Cabin (and it is rare to find a gay american (even a conservative gay american) on such a site),

What are you even talking about? Is it impossible to imagine that one can support the police while opposing a law that we are making them enforce? While opposing sending them out to do a difficult job with inadequate equipment? While opposing sending them out with no clear objective of what they are doing? In other words, can I support the rank and file and be opposed to the politicians who put them in harms way? You bet your sweet gay ass I can.

How is this transparent? Almost all liberals have said, I support our troops, let's bring them home so they don't get themselves killed in his pointless war. Yes, it is pointless. Yes, 1,800 of them are dead now. Another 10-20k are permanently injured. More die and are wounded daily.

Their blood is not on my hands. I opposed this war. I didn't ask for a tax cut. I would repeal it today to supply the troops with body armor and armored vehicles. Will you?

Fuck anyone who claims I want our troops to die. You guys sent them over there with no plan. You guys sent them over there with inadequate equipment. You guys sent them to the wrong country fer crissakes. If I was in your shoes, I would feel like such shit about this.

I feel like shit as it is, and I opposed this fiasco, because I actually care about our troops and we fucked them over. Hard.

So, if I follow the Warden's logic, conservatives hate liberals because we don't support Bush. And your solution to this is to call us names?

I write resumes for a living and I still work with Reserve and Guard members. Their lives suck right now, and George Bush has done nothing to make their unenviable plight any better. Cutting VA funding, still dragging his feet on Humvee armor, and still REFUSING TO CALL ON ELIGIBLE AMERICANS TO SERVE THEIR COUNTRY IN UNIFORM!

What part of not enough troops on the ground don't you jokers understand? It didn't go like you planned and now we need more troops but Bush isn't asking for them. A real leader would have gone to that Young Americans convention last week with a platoon load of recruiters.

I grew up conservative, my family is conservative, but this war is not conservative in any way, shape or form. This is a radical war launched by radicals to achieve a radical agenda that has nothing to do with the heinous events of 9/11. Real conservatives don't do phony tax cuts that end up in the pockets of the rich. Real conservatives don't start wars of aggression, and they don't abandon one war to start another war (Afghan opium anyone?).

Yes, there is ENORMOUS ANGER ON THE LEFT, but it's not aimed at our countrymen, it's aimed at our lawless leadership. Unlike Sirhan Sirhan, we'll wait until '06 to deal with it, and then in '07 you folks can start dealing with the truth as the Democratic run committees start their investigations.

Despite the peep-in-your-bedrooms Patriot Act, they won't be investigating you, however. They'll be investigating Bush, Cheney & Co. Unlike Bush, Cheney & Co., who only seem interested in investigating Americans, instead of finding Osama, the Democrats will be seeking to find out how $8 billion disappeared in the first few months, why the Iraqi armaments weren't secured (you know, the shit they use to make those IEDs that kill our troops?), but why the Oil Ministry was immediately held.

They might also ask why Saddam is still alive. Could it be that Bush is terrified of what Saddam might say in the courtroom? I guess we won't know until he's tried, but apparently the new Iraqi judiciary system isn't ready to go yet.

Liberals overwhelmingly supported Bush after 9/11 and for that we get spat on. By the most conservative estimate imaginable one-third of our troops in Iraq are Democrats or left-leaning Independents. Karl Rove just pissed all over those guys and gals and I'm appalled to find an über-patriotic site like this cheering Rove's divisive wedge driving.

We are in this together so why not try reaching out instead of all this namecalling bullshit?

Frankly, there are days when I wonder if the right isn't more interested in abandoning democracy altogether. It certainly doesn't seem to be anything you're heavily invested in.

But I don't mean to tell you what you think. I realize you're too busy trying to ignore what I say so you can tell ME what YOU think I believe.

Whatever rocks your tiny little boats.

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We need a trustworthy and experienced PATRIOTIC LIBERAL to help us, and are willing to pay a ten percent commission for your services.

Please contact me at my Confidential email address, in which I use the pseudonym "Michael".

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Oh, JesusFChrist! I can't believe the SirhanSirhan reference, Gisleson. Let me guess, you have a bug up your ass about Joooos, too. What a shock!

I love it.

Mr. Meyer,

As much as I enjoy a good 419 scam now and again, we are not the ones who have been sold anything here. We are not the gullible ones. We did not fall for anything.

You did. And still are apparently.

This war was sold to you and you are still buying it. This man who pretends he is the president was sold to you, and you are still buying it. The colossal blunders made again and again has been successfully 'palmed' from your view, but not ours.

P.S. If you really want to see who is gullible, check out the ads on Newsmax:

As we speak, your conservative countrymen are being sold:

'Bet on' Iraqi Currency
"Own gold Within Minutes"
"Instant 'Knock-Out' Moves"
"1865 Shipwreck Gold Coins"
Conservative books for only $1
and two ads telling me how fit I can get fast.

The advertisers sure think conservatives are gullible. You don't see these ads at Kos.

In a book entitled High Crimes and Misdemeanors: The Case Against Bill Clinton, Coulter suggested the only question in regards to Clinton was "whether to impeach or assassinate."

Well, I definitly can't agree to that. Assasination just isn't funny. Maybe that's why she didn't sit with Bush Sr. during the convention.

I don't know what you are talking about with the Waco fiasco. Those people were being arrested because they were stockpiling an arsenal of illegal weapons.
Seattle Slough

If you can't see the problem with torching a building full of kids then I can't see changing your mind. And don't bs me with the liberal argument that they torched their own home. Arrest usually means being handcuffed and taken to jail, not murdered. We could have waited all summer for them, or they could have just got the head kook while he was in town. Technically, murdering people is usually considered trampling on their rights. The right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That sounds kind of familiar.

BTW, I was one of those guys in uniform during the last Gulf War. The impression I got was that all of the people protesting the war did indeed want me to die. Of course that might have been because I was coming out of Washington State at the time. That's considered normal attitude there.

I write resumes for a living and I still work with Reserve and Guard members. Their lives suck right now, and George Bush has done nothing to make their unenviable plight any better. Cutting VA funding, still dragging his feet on Humvee armor, and still REFUSING TO CALL ON ELIGIBLE AMERICANS TO SERVE THEIR COUNTRY IN UNIFORM!

Liberals overwhelmingly supported Bush after 9/11 and for that we get spat on. By the most conservative estimate imaginable one-third of our troops in Iraq are Democrats or left-leaning Independents. Karl Rove just pissed all over those guys and gals and I'm appalled to find an über-patriotic site like this cheering Rove's divisive wedge driving.Mark Gisleson

Total bullshit, do you believe that crap you're writing? If you signed up for the guard or reserves and didn't know what you were getting into you'd have to be a total moron, and I didn't meet to many of those in the military. Funding goes through Congress, Bush can go with it or not, but he doesn't decide on it passing or not passing.

Read Rove's speech again after you pull your head out of your ass. He never mentions Democrats in his speech, the knee jerk response of your leaders is what brought Democrats into it.

And the asinine call for a draft is getting kind of old. Bush calls for a draft and he gets beat over the head for it, he doesn't call for a draft and he get beat over the head for that too. As a veteran, I can tell you straight up that the last guy I want watching my back is a guy that was forced to be there.

How is Washington the most corrupt state again? A conservative judge in a conservative county found no evidence of fraud.
If you're buying this line of crap, there is no hope for you.

They might also ask why Saddam is still alive. Could it be that Bush is terrified of what Saddam might say in the courtroom? I guess we won't know until he's tried, but apparently the new Iraqi judiciary system isn't ready to go yet.
I was going to ignore this, but it's just too stupid to pass up. If Bush was really "terrified of what Saddam might say" as you put it, wouldn't he just have him killed. Hell we did both of his kids and nobody was overly concerned about that. It would be easy to arrange a suicide in his cell if it was needed.

Seriously, stop smoking dope, it's making you stupid.

Last anonymous post was me. DBS

On Liberal and Corrupt Washington:

Someone has apparently never been to Chelan county. (the county seat is Wenatchee in the heart of apple country) Someone probably didn't realize that Rossi handpicked Chelan county for precisely that reason.

Washington state only has four or five liberal counties: King, Pierce, Snohomish, Island and parts of Thurston and Whatcom. The rest is conservative.

The suit was brought in Chelan county for a reason.

log cabin:

1) GWB, his administration, and the GOP are not America. Their decisions are not America. Their motives are not America.

2) Yes, it is possible to wish our soldiers the very best, support them being adequately trained and fully supplied, while still not supporting a war they happen to be fighting. It's called having an opinion of your own while still being patriotic, as opposed to blind faith and devotion. Another word for it is liberal, if you like.

3) Despite your being "sure" of the motives of others, liberals are not the ones who expect "never to be questioned". It is certain GOP members in power (eg: Tom Delay), and the Bush Aministration who think they do not and should not answer to Congress, much less the American people whom they represent.

Really.... it's getting difficult for the right to blame liberals for everything when there aren't any of them in power anymore. But it sure is amusing to watch them try.

This man who pretends he is the president was sold to you, and you are still buying it.

Um, Mr. Slough, if you don't think he is actually the president, I withdraw my offer.

Someone has apparently never been to Chelan county. (the county seat is Wenatchee in the heart of apple country) Someone probably didn't realize that Rossi handpicked Chelan county for precisely that reason.

I've got to admit that's true. My entire experience with the state of Washington was all in Western Washington. Maybe that's why I have such a negative opinion of the state.

"Chelan County Superior Court Judge John Bridges denied Republican claims that election errors, illegal voters and fraud stole the election from GOP candidate Dino Rossi. He announced his decision in court, saying the state's election process was flawed but that he was not the proper person to remedy those flaws." -from a CNN article

Doesn't sound like he's saying it was an honest race, just that it shouldn't be decided in his court.

Didn't bother the State Supreme Court when they voted 7-0 against Rossi. What's they're affiliation?

Wednesday morning, the Supreme Court heard arguments from both sides and hours later issued 7-to-0 decision siding with the Democrats and Reed.

That entire election was screwed up from the get-go.

Don't get me wrong, I think George Bush holds the title of President. I think he is nominally the President for sure.

I just do not think he is actually the president. In that, he is merely a face. He wasn't even informed the last time the capitol and white house were evacuated. In other words, he was not in the loop. How can the president not be in the loop?

George Bush goes around the country and recites stock talking points in front of hand picked audiences. And he doesn't even do that very well. The guy is practically invisible otherwise. Unless he is falling off his bike or putting his foot in his mouth, I don't think any of us know what he does from day to day. Do you?

They shield him from protesters, he doesn't read papers, I wonder if he truly knows what is going on.

I am not suggesting that Cheney is the actual president or anything. Though I suspect that he has a lot of power. But it seems as though 'the administration' is in charge. Not Bush. He is just the guy with the famous face. There is a reason they call Rove 'Bush's Brain.'

They shield him from protesters, he doesn't read papers, I wonder if he truly knows what is going on.

I hate to burst your bubble, but when you get down to it, no President ever reads the paper. They have an in-house paper that's put together by the staff to keep him abridge of current events. He's also got a few thousand employees (CIA, FBI, State Department, etc...) that'll tell him the news before the newspapers get a chance to set their presses. It's been that way since at least the 80's and probably further back than that.

He wasn't even informed the last time the capitol and white house were evacuated. In other words, he was not in the loop.

He was on a bike path in Maryland, not in any danger from the intruding small plane, and the appropriate decisions were being made by the appropriate agencies. There was nothing for him to do. Why bug him about a fire drill? How does that make him a president who is not in the loop?

Sheesh.

Please remember to contact us about updating your account information.

Maybe it's just me, but I thought the Patriot Act passed the Senate 98-1. I guess all 98 of the yes votes were Republicans, and the 1 nay vote was the lone Democrat.

Most people I know refer to AEDPA or the Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996 as the original Patriot Act or Patriot I. Note how it combines anti-terrorism and limiting federal appeals in death penalty cases and it was signed by, cough cough, Bill Clinton! Yet the lefties never complain about it. I wonder why?

What I found funny about seattle slough's screed was his claim that people never change but nations do. Because as we all know, you can't talk a man out of his opinions, but lynch mobs will turn on a dime. Sheesh, talk about typical liberal groupthink.

And seriously, if Jeb would have found barreloads of new "uncounted" votes in '00, even with the liberal SCOTUS's blessing, we rightfully would have never have heard the end of it. But in WA that's business as usual.

Well, I never! Did America get to be the "best" by sitting on its haunches and saying "Nothing should change! All progress must stop now!"? Or is there still a little room for improvement? Like, say, one in 6 American children living in poverty? Maybe we could get that down to 1 in 7?

Should a wife love her husband, warts and all, even if he disappears for days on end and comes back with lipstick on his collar?

Supporting the troops fighting, but not the(Iraqi) war itself.

The wingnut lefties always expose their true beliefs if you just give them enough time. They come here and try to sound reasonable and moderate, but eventually the idiocy just spews forth.

I love how they find Nazi references perfectly reasonable when attacking their opponents, but sputter in outrage when called traitors and cry foul at personal insults.

Their very own DNC chairman makes a habit of labeling the opposition as "evil" people who haven't done an "honest day of work" in their lives, and they cheer him on. But give them a thimble full of their own medicine and they moan and complain.

I don't make a habit of personally insulting people on this site, but if the shoe fits wear it.

It is interesting that comments from the left seem to have largely missed the points that were made in the post. I began by pointing out that the definition of patriotism as used by the left is questionable - it is not patriotism to express loyalty and love for your personal conception of the way things should be, since you are essentially only expressing loyalty and love for yourself. No one said that it was bad to want to make improvements - that just doesn't fall under the definition of patriotism.

Ace then pointed out that to the extent that there appears to be commonality among liberal's visions for a future America, it seems to those of us on the right to resemble Europe.

I think the debate over patriotism could be quickly resolved if everyone who used the term was required to define which principles and institutions are the objects of their patriotism.

I'm not really amazed that you liken American to a 'dirty-sexy piece of ass'.

Why is it that you right-wingers are SO friggin' obsessed with sex and, in particular, asses?

Maybe you're like David Dreier and are a closet gay who likes to gay-bash.

David's obsessed with asses, also.

Frankly, equating America to a 'piece of ass' is just disgusting. Obviously, you never served in the military (and yes, I did - during Nam) and are part of the Fighting 101st Keyboardists.

Why not join the military? Or, do you, like "Mr. 5 deferments" Cheney, have 'other priorities?

Meanwhile, change your posting and get rid of the 'ass' reference.

BTW, I just re-read the top of this page, and - again - you reference 'ass', as in this is a 'big-ass post'.

What IS it with you anal-retentive people having such a fixation on the nether regions?

Maybe you and Neal Horsley shared the same mule when you were young? (Check Alan Colmes website for the video and audio of Neal admitting this to Alan).

Premature post-
The common mantra is support our troops-bring them home.
We can not do that now, no matter what happens (I read a lot of impeach Bush DSM ect) it would not change squat. America now has a moral obligation to rebuild Iraq whatever the cost. When we invaded Afganistan I don't remember us "libruls" protesting it was the right thing to do. However when a country as powerful as the US invades a country ,yanks down the exsisting government and trys to rebuild in it's own image we are in a real sense playing god.To do this in two countries at the same time is irresponsible at best. Once we opened Pandoras Box in the mid-east we can't just walk away "oops our bad we made a mistake". For this reason I can not condone Iraq - better to have finished the job in Afganistan, take out OBL and then see what mop-up was needed.

warden:

what you're forgetting is that democrat apologized for his remarks, though karl rove has not and never will.

and liberals did not cheer howard dean on, they met with him privately and many of them came up publicly saying howard dean did not speak for them.

yea, those crazy lefties.

Really which Dem apologized?
Dean? Not that I've heard od.
Durbin?- No not really. He apologized for giving offense. He didn't apologize (to the troops of all people!) for giving offensive statements.

Let me illustrate.
James, you're a subliterate, mouthbreathing, retard of a troll. And I did your mother.

I'm sorry if my remarks caused offense.
I'm not sorry for the remarks, I'm just sorry that they caused offense. And I'm sorry that you're a subliterate, mouthbreathing, retard of a troll. And I'm sorry your mother wasn't any better.

See its easy to apologize the Durbin(tm) way!

"Warts and all, conservatives are smart enough to realize this is the most beautiful wife we'll ever get."

Even when she's sleeping with your brother, and tells you about it?

Conservatives are p-whiped momma's boys?

Would a real man be married to that woman?

Hell no.

Would a real man marry another man?

Yes, I would.

You calling gay guys less than real men? Do you really want to go there?

Gay men aren't less than real men. Radical leftist "men" are.

Warden--

I'm so glad that anyone who doesn't conform to your narrow, ultra-nationalistic ideas about America aren't "real men" and that we should all just eat shit and die. (Or whatever variation of that you wrote above.) What do you do on weekends for fun, kick puppies? Use kittens for target practice?

You have one ugly, maladjusted angry soul there, guy. Let's hope you're writing from a prison computer somewhere. At the very least a hospital. Or perhaps some militia camp somehwere? Let's just hope it's somewhere secluded. If not, I advise you to seek some help, maybe some anger management for starters. Before you snap.

Warden:

You said: "I don't make a habit of personally insulting people on this site, but if the shoe fits wear it."

Prior to this (on this thread alone) you said:

"All you lefty fucks who lack even one good word to say about our nation can go eat a big pile of shit for all I care. You aren't patriots. You're traitorous scum."

"I love when these America-hating faggots get themselves all huffed up in righteous indignation when their pathology is identified and labeled correctly."

Then you followed up with this gem.

"Gay men aren't less than real men. Radical leftist "men" are."

What a disingenuous fuck you are. What a tremendous pussy you must be. You aren't funny. You aren't bright. You aren't clever. You are a hateful, pasty, immature loser. Period. Conservatives like you think they you real men, yet you lock yourselves in your bedrooms with a gun under their pillow. Pussies. You can't imagine living in a neighborhood with people that are not exactly like you. i.e. other pussies. You can't even raise your children without the U.S. government supporting their religious beliefs.

But what really bugs me is this line of absolute shit:

"True patriots know that there is no legitimate equivalency between Nazi Germany and the United States of America under ANY president regardless of whether we voted for him or not, and say so loudly whenever some idiot makes a comment to the contrary."

Do you realize how much like a Nazi a statement like that is? Not a Nazi in 1940 mind you, a Nazi in 1936. To claim that NO MATTER WHAT, no U.S. President could be that evil simply because they are Americans is exactly the type of jack booted idiocy that lead to the third reich in the first place.

Of course a U.S. President could be as bad as a Nazi. Blind loyalty is a hallmark of the Nazis. A true U.S. citizen has no use for such loyalty. Now I have never called Bush a Nazi. But I do think he leans towards fascism. Funny thing is Durbin never called anyone a Nazi. But you knew that. You are just being a jackass because that is all you are good for.

Do you know the dictionary definition of fascism? Here it is:

"A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism."

If a President even begins to walk down this path we had better pull out the Nazi references. The rule that no one can make Nazi references destroys the only value the Nazis have for us. Their bad example. To demonize Hitler to the point where he is no longer a human being is to claim that there can never be an equivalent. This is wrong. Hitler was all too human. By demonizing Hitler we fool ourselves into thinking we would recognize the next Hitler. We wouldn't. The next Hitler will be a dynamic leader that will be beloved by all.

To claim that no matter how bad the U.S. gets, we could never be compared to Nazis is to have learned nothing from our victory over them.

Blind patriotism is for idiots. Political parties are not sports teams. Being a good citizen is not being a loyal fan. When our leaders betray us, you better believe they will hear about it.

I'm so glad that anyone who doesn't conform to your narrow, ultra-nationalistic ideas about America aren't "real men" and that we should all just eat shit and die.

Golly, I'm not glad! Please, Z, eat $hit and die.* Please?

Then there'd be one less non-real-man in the world.

Later,
bbeck

*Just to clarify for the non-real-men: that was a joke, not a threat, so please don't soil yourselves or launch into standard non-real-man hystrionics. You probably don't think it's a funny joke, but then, you really wouldn't since it was made wholly at your expense.

The best right/left patriotism I've heard is, liberals love their country like someone loves their spouse - you love them, you want them to be happy, but you also want them to lead a good life and do the right thing - if you see that your spouse is eating unhealthy, you might cook them some veggies once in a while. If your spouse has a drinking problem, you steer them towards AA, not towards the brewery. Does that mean you hate them? No. It means you're a reasonable adult, and expect them to act the same way.

Conservatives love their country like a five-year-old loves her mommy. Mommy is all-good and all-powerful, and anyone who says anything bad about mommy, even if it's true, is an evil evildoer of evil, and we'll start crying until they stop saying nasty things about mommy.

I also love hearing conservatives screaming from their playpens about someone who doesn't like the war or the president being against the troops. So, were all those conservatives who hated Clinton and attacked him for intervening in Kosovo... were they rooting for our troops to die?

I should also point out that, when Clinton decided to get Milosovich, he went in with a plan, adequeate troop strength, and an exit strategy. He got his man with exactly 0 American combat fatalities. When Bush decided to get Saddam, he went in with no plan, inadequate troop strength, and no exit strategy, and the military brass told him so. 1600 deaths and no end in sight.

So if I would have preferred a Clinton-style well-executed operation to a Bush-style bloody mess, how does that make me against the troops? And I'm not just cheerleading Clinton - Bush's father deserves equal amounts of credit for carrying out the first Gulf War. We had a clear reason for attacking, a clear goal, a clear exit strategy, we sent in enough troops to do the job, and we had a clear, effective vision of postwar Iraq (the no-fly zone, sanctions, etc.) which, as we now know, prevented Saddam from starting a nuclear program and stockpiling the weapons that Bush paid Ahmed Chalabi to pretend were there in such vast numbers.

In short, we don't hate the Iraq war because we want America to lose. We hate the Iraq war because Bush made such a hash of it from day one. But personally, I hate it even more because it takes our troops and money away from the war we should be fighting - the one against the people who actually attacked us on 9/11. Remember them? Al Qaeda? Osama bin Somethingorother? Because Bush forgot all about them pretty damn quick.

Now I have never called Bush a Nazi. But I do think he leans towards fascism.

YEAH, you Neocon dills, Bush isn't a Nazi, he's a Fascist! It's like a whole different spelling and everything. And the uniforms aren't as cool.

Later,
bbeck

liberals "love" their country by talking down to it, kicking it, spitting on it, believing every half-cocked rumor against it and generally hating it.

they probably do the same to their spouse, with the cutesy line that hating their spouse is really "true love." They are "patriotic" to their husband and wife by calling him/her a fascist whore.

The best right/left patriotism I've heard is...

Now why did I know this post was going to be full of crap just from those words?

Why, because there's no such thing as "left patriotism." Unless you're European.

Later,
bbeck

Based on the actions of our founding fathers does:

Patriot = don't question the government and call those who do trators?

or

Patriot = question the government when it does wrong, even in times of conflict?

Patriot = one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests.

That's based on Webster's.

Webster's is a dictionary.

In case you didn't know and/or preferred to just, you know, make up definitions.

Later,
bbeck

Schroeder's reference to Franken's feeble diatribe on conservatives' love of country speaks as poorly for his analytic abilities as it does his sourcing. He then continues with a complete mischaracterization of Clinton's and Bush's entries into their respective conflicts, which is both stunningly unfair and historically inaccurate. Quite the contribution to the discussion.

Geoff, just what DO Lefties contribute to a discussion other than an opportunity for ridicule?

Later,
bbeck

I, as a liberal, dream of the America that was, warts and all - five years ago.

When we still had a balanced budget, an expanding middle class, and a White House that believed in breathable air and drinkable water.

An America with leaders that would have pursued Osama Bin Laden, and settled Afghanistan, and not been distracted by pointless adventurism into Iraq, the Middle Eastern nation with *less* connections to Al Qaeda and Bin Laden than any other Middle Eastern country.

bbeck, though I've yet to have a positive experience, I remain naively hopeful that a sincere and rational exchange between the two sides might lead to less antagonism and more understanding. Failing that, I suppose that ridicule does offer its own rewards...

bbeck - our founding fathers disagree with you, about Left patriotism.

Thomas Jefferson is more definable as a liberal, than as a conservative, by any stretch of the imagination.

Ditto for FDR and Harry Truman. I guess you're saying, they weren't patriots?

"As opposed to the left which uses the courts, the media, the education system, and the law to suppress their opposition?"

Dude - winning in reasoned argument, is not attempting to suppress opposition.

Saying that anyone who disagrees with you about the best course is "an enemy of America", is.

"...when the bullets are flying and people are dying, constantly harping on your sides alleged misdeeds while ignoring the crimes of the enemy is unpatriotic and in fact treasonous as it gives aid and comfort to the enemy."

So, every Republican who said anything bad about Clinton during the Kosovo intervention, is a traitor, right? Because soldier's lives were at risk, and the GOP continued to undermine his authority at home and abroad, and declared Kosovo a disaster, etc. etc.? All of these Republicans and conservatives should all be prosecuted, right?

Pat Buchanan has heavily criticized Bush's foreign policy. He did it in a book, and made a lot of money off it. Is he being unpatriotic? Is he a traitor?

Or does your standard only apply to Democrats who disagree? Be honest.

"It is a fact that many on the left have said they wanted the US to loose this war so that it would be "humilated" and no longer be a super power or act "unilaterally"."

Bull. I dispute that this is a fact. I demand you show some polls to back this assertion. I'd like you to find one Democratic senator or Congressman who said this. I'd like you to find one liberal New Yorker. Your slander is disgusting, divisive, and unbacked by any factual data.

And even if this was true - which it ain't - on your side of the ideological fence Falwell, a conservative, said 9/11 was God's vengeance on the US for "permitting" homosexuality.

Does he speak for you and all of the right, and Republicans as well? Should we hold his words against you?

Face the mess your party has gotten this nation into. Stop trying to blame the messenger, and we may be able to rescue *our* country from this disaster.

Sorry, Jim, just a sec, I'm wiping away the tears caused by your last post.

Tears of laughter, natch.

Okay, lessee...

bbeck - our founding fathers disagree with you, about Left patriotism.

Holy cow, they're still ALIVE? Golly.

Thomas Jefferson is more definable as a liberal, than as a conservative, by any stretch of the imagination.

Uh, that would be a stretch of REALITY, not imagination, but that's okay, I consider the source.

Ditto for FDR and Harry Truman. I guess you're saying, they weren't patriots?

No. I AM saying you're an idiot, though. Maybe you want to LOOK AT THE DEFINTION I just gave for "patriot" and understand what "the left" IS before you write your garbage. But between you and me, I doubt you'll make sense even then.

Later,
bbeck

"Didn't liberals in the house and senate get a vote on whether or not to go to war in Iraq?"

Watseka - wrong. We had a vote that Bush could invade Iraq if Saddam refused to cooperate and was proven to have WMD's.

Saddam didn't. Bush wanted to invade anyway. Now we're stuck in there, with 1700 dead soldiers, 10,000 + wounded, a high percentage of 'em maimed for life,, $300 billion in debt, and no exit plan.

"It seems to me the liberals want to back out of liberating a country that deserves to be free."

That's interesting. It seems to me you want to back out of being responsible for big mess. Guess what? You voted for Bush, you voted for this war. You are responsible for every wasted life, every maimed soldier, every new terrorist generated by our unnecessary invasion, every dead *innocent civilian* Iraqi, and the saddling of national debt on our children's futures.

Stop whining like a little crybaby, and face your responsibility like a man.

Comments inline:

"I, as a liberal, dream of the America that was, warts and all - five years ago. When we still had a balanced budget [beginning a recession and a severe downturn in the stock markets], an expanding middle class[well except for all the casualties from the DotCom fiasco], and a White House that believed in breathable air and drinkable water. [As well as adultry and prevarication]"

My point being, jim, that you're so full of sh*t your eyes are brown.

What mess? I'm listening to the radio and they are talking about the Iraqi bloggers. The big news over there is the writing of the new consitution. Everyone wants to participate in the process. Everyone is excited. Everyone except asshats like you.

bbeck, you immaturely avoided real discussion, as it seems is your habit, by originally saying:

"there's no such thing as "left patriotism." Unless you're European."

You then later defined patriotism as: "one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests."

Thomas Jefferson, FDR and Truman were liberals. This is fact. Don't take my word for it. Try a google search. MY point in saying this is, they utterly destroy your half-assed position of it being impossible for liberals to be patriots.

As for supporting patriotism, when Clinton was a president, I am sure you did not support his authority. Yes, even when troops were in Kosovo and under fire. So, hello, traitor.

Saying the government is driving off a cliff, when you in fact believe it is driving off a cliff, is patriotic. This fits your own definition of patriotism - "one who supports it's interests."

It's a tragedy of our time, that our nation's authority is in direct conflict with it's future best interests.

Those of us who love this country and who believe it is being driven off a cliff, would be traitors if we did *not* say anything.

Now BREW! don't ruin my fun. Didn't you see how far the turd had to go back in history before he could find a "patriotic Leftie?"

Besides, we ALL know conservatives HATE clean air and water SO much we don't think the government should be paid millions to pretend to FIX them. I mean, come ON, we shouldn't get in the way of the government when they want to pretend to solve problems! In fact, we should spend more, MORE for them to pretend!

Later,
bbeck

Comments inline:

"When we still had a balanced budget [beginning a recession and a severe downturn in the stock markets]"

So an unnecessary war, cutting taxes in wartime and a non-bargaining medicaid bill - which took hundreds of billions from the budget - they're all Clinton's fault. He's controlling Bush remotely, I guess.

"An expanding middle class[well except for all the casualties from the DotCom fiasco]"

Right - the way the middle class has continued to shrink for the past five years? That's Clinton's fault, too.

"and a White House that believed in breathable air and drinkable water. [As well as adultry and prevarication]"

Which is worse - screwing an intern, or screwing the country?

"My point being, jim, that you're so full of sh*t your eyes are brown."

You must be staring into your monitor. Hint: it's reflective. Oh, and nyah nyah nyah.

Didn't you see how far the turd had to go back in history before he could find a "patriotic Leftie?"

Good. You accept reality there. Now we'll move forward.

A current example?

Wesley Clark.

Besides, we ALL know conservatives HATE clean air and water SO much we don't think the government should be paid millions to pretend to FIX them.

You said it, I didn't.

But if you believe in results, you might think differently.

bbeck, you immaturely avoided real discussion...

WOW, Jim, I NEVER try to have mature discussions with children like you. I also don't try to talk rocket science with a 2-year-old because no matter how clear you make it, they just...don't...get...it...

...and I'll prove it...or actually, you will....

Thomas Jefferson, FDR and Truman were liberals. This is fact.

How mature to state a lie as fact!

MY point in saying this is, they utterly destroy your half-assed position of it being impossible for liberals to be patriots.

Jimbo, the only point you have is on the top of your head. I never...said...that. Don't you even KNOW what "the Left" IS?

As for supporting patriotism, when Clinton was a president, I am sure you did not support his authority. Yes, even when troops were in Kosovo and under fire. So, hello, traitor.

Hello, Dummy! Well, since you don't understand the word "patriot" I couldn't expect you to get a concept a tad more complex like treason, now, could I?

Saying the government is driving off a cliff, when you in fact believe it is driving off a cliff, is patriotic. This fits your own definition of patriotism - "one who supports it's interests."

Oh, so I WAS a patriot during Clinton's reign. Well shoot, boy, make up your mind! OTOH, claiming the government is driving off a cliff when you KNOW they're not driving off a cliff but instead they're making YOU look like a complete fool because you just hate hate hate Republicans is...well, here we have something close to "treason" but it's more like "idiocy."

It's a tragedy of our time, that our nation's authority is in direct conflict with it's future best interests.

Welp, we don't ALL think Oceania's an ideal to strive for. Sorry.

Those of us who love this country and who believe it is being driven off a cliff, would be traitors if we did *not* say anything.

It's bad enough you lie to me, but you really should stop lying to yourself.

Later,
bbeck

Good. You accept reality there. Now we'll move forward.

OH, he missed the quote marks. Guess you don't know what those mean when people use them.

A current example? Wesley Clark.

Oh, THAT joke! He was a disgrace as a general that the troops LAUGHED at (his nickname in the military was "That F***head," I think) and was even a worse presidential candidate. But leave it to you to think otherwise.

You said it, I didn't.

I DID say it! And I don't think the government should be paid to PRETEND to fix anything! Liberals LOVE the government to pretend.

But if you believe in results, you might think differently.

Guess you didn't see the word "pretend" all those times. Or it zipped over your head. Moron!

Later,
bbeck

I agree, Christians do LOVE sodomy!

jim, lets look at your points:

1. an unnecessary war [denying reality just isn't an argument]

2. cutting taxes in wartime [Weren't the tax cuts passed in the summer of 2001?]

3. a non-bargaining medicaid bill [When did we ever have a 'bargaining' medicaid bill? And how is this Bush's fault? Is he responsible for the actions of the legislative branch?]

4.the middle class has continued to shrink for the past five years [We've had this discussion here recently; there are ample explanations for shifts in income brackets such as immigration and the increasing number of retirees. You're really deluding yourself if you think this is the result of short term economic events]

5. Which is worse - screwing an intern, or screwing the country? [crappy strawman argument; what Clinton did was craven and without respect for the office and institution of the presidency. What Bush is doing is responding to the first direct attack on American soil since Pearl Harbor. You may not agree with everything he does but you are morally bankrupt if you can't see the distinction.]

6. You must be staring into your monitor. Hint: it's reflective[and this I can do with a clear conscience and the conviction of purpose]

yes howard, the distinction makes a difference. you apologize for your remarks giving offense. you don't apologize for exercising your right to free speech. see the difference? do you? can you? or do you just not care?

those of you trying to reason with bbeck should realize now that he's not interested in an open and honest debate. he's another rightie who's mentality is that everything wrong in this country is because of liberals, democrats, and so forth. he spends half his posts defending his earlier posts, and the other half calling liberal democrats names. he doesn't want to hear from the left. he drank the kool-aid. he's much too comfortable in his indignation and within his role of demonizing liberals for having the nerve to disagree with power in representing the voters who elected them to office. he is a lost cause and therefore not worth our time. should a liberal never post to this thread again he would still find ample time to denounce and ridicule them.

time to move on.

yes howard, the distinction makes a difference. you apologize for your remarks giving offense.

So, you're acknowledging the FACT that Durbin DID NOT APOLOGIZE FOR WHAT HE SAID. He only apologized for what he said GIVING OFFENSE.

In other words, he didn't apologize for anything of substance, like every liberal on the planet is dancing about gaily claiming.

I DO know that "offense" is really the only thing that liberals occasionally get the Panty Bunch over (unless, of course, it's offending Christians or Pro Lifers or Women Attacked/Killed by Liberals or basically any philosophy that isn't in lockstep) but really, it's not the offense that matters, it's the MEANING of the words...which really hasn't a thing to do with the First Amendment and everything to do with Durbin being your basic scumbag crapweasel who hates America and her soldiers with a white-hot passion.

Which is basically what Rove said. And it's a cryin' shame HE doesn't care about the Almighty Offensiveness of his words. But then, he's not a non-real-man.

Later,
bbeck

Yay, my own troll!

FYI, this person is almost right (except for the fact that I am a FEMALE). I have absolutely Zero Interest in debating ANYONE, particularly morons. Sorry, Morons! Now, take the oh-so-brave-anonymous-troll's advice and MOVE ON.

Later,
bbeck

Look at Seattle huff and puff! Ohhh, Warden you're a hypocrite 'cause you say you don't generally insult people here, but you insulted people all over this thread!

Good, Seattle. Let your anger build and reveal your true self!

Because those insults are reserved especially for you and your America hating ilk, you miserable punk. I don't make it a habit of it, a fact that can be easily checked by those who come here regularly.

But you wouldn't know that, as came flying over here like a moth to a flame as soon as you found out someone was calling you for what you are - unpatriotic.

You and all the other fucks who defend Dick Durbin's bullshit Nazi analogies aren't worth a respectable debate. Anyone who supports the claim that what has gone on in this war in Iraq is even remotely close to the actions of Nazi Germany is either fundamentally dishonest or egregiously ignorant. Either way, fucko, you'll get no respect from me.

Eat shit and die.

Eat shit and die? You do know I am an American citizen, right? Harboring a death-wish for your fellow countrymen makes you something less than a patriot in most books.

I wouldn't wish death upon you. Sure, I might call you a tremendous pussy, or a pathetic representative of our junior high school educational system, but dead? Never. Live long my friend.

I also don't want our men and women in uniform to die. That's why I didn't want to send them to Iraq. Those that I know that have been there (thankfully none of whom have died, knock on wood) really hated to be there. The said it is really shitty there and they have no fucking clue why we are there. But hey, it is your war. Support our oops right? By the way, you sound young, why aren't you there?

I don't know where you get that I am unpatriotic. I truly believe that this administration is bad for the country. How could I not oppose it if my belief is well founded?

What I do find humorous is how the white house counteracts the shrill excuses of idiots like you. You say the guys in Guantanamo are 'terrorists,' then Rumsfeld goes and says the insurgents Inraq are not terrorists and that it is OK to deal with them. Ouch. If Iraqis who attack our troops aren't terrorists, that kind of blows it for Afghanis who did the same don't you think?

Then you all attack Durbin by claiming we didn't torture anyone. Then a couple weeks later the U.S. admits to the U.N. that we did torture. Oops.

I don't even know why I waste my time. I only come here when this place gets put in the Daou report. Last time I came here I argued with some anonymous idiot on a legal issue over the Schiavo autopsy. This anonymous moron was so far in over his head, it was silly. You can read the exchange here: http://blog.mu.nu/cgi/splorp.cgi?entry_id=92592

That one was embarrassing too wasn't it? The Schiavo autopsy? And Kerry's military records kind of proved those Swift Boat guys to be complete liars right? And now, thanks to the Supreme Court, we may yet find out who the real traitors are in the Bush Administration who leaked the identity of an undercover CIA operative (working on WMDs no less) for political reasons.

Is anything that comes out of Conservative America honest at all? Durbin is a traitor, yet Rove is a genius? C'mon dude. You guys need to stop making excuses and start making this country a better place. These guys in the White House suck ass and more and more people are realizing it every day.

Live long and prosper my friend. I suspect you will counter with more pointless name calling and baseless suggestions that I am a traitor. Yawn. Send me an email if you have something of substance to say.

Good. Thank you, brewfan, for creating the possibility of a direct discussion.

Let's go throught the points:

"1. an unnecessary war [denying reality just isn't an argument]"

This point is answered downthread.

"2. cutting taxes in wartime [Weren't the tax cuts passed in the summer of 2001?]"

Taxes were cut further, and further again, after we invaded Afghanistan, in 2003. At the same time, the overall budget was increased, including non-military spending.

Bush is the only president to cut taxes in wartime, in the history of the United States.

"3. a non-bargaining medicaid bill [When did we ever have a 'bargaining' medicaid bill? And how is this Bush's fault? Is he responsible for the actions of the legislative branch?]"

Bush proposed and pushed heavily the new Medicaid bill. His administration even threatened to fire a staffer if he told the Senate how much it would actually cost.

This bill made it illegal for the government to actually use the power of the free market, and bargain collectively for drugs. Thus mandating that the government must spend *more* of your taxpayer dollars, billions in fact.

Bush's baby, pushed through the Republican-controlled senate. So, yes, it's not just Bush alone. Your party, led by Bush, made this happen.

"4.the middle class has continued to shrink for the past five years [We've had this discussion here recently; there are ample explanations...You're really deluding yourself if you think this is the result of short term economic events]"

You can explain it up, down, sideways, or any way you want. The point is, a) things are harder for the middle class and lower class than ever, and b) Bush is doing absolutely nothing about it, has no plan, and doesn't care.

"5. Which is worse - screwing an intern, or screwing the country? [...What Bush is doing is responding to the first direct attack on American soil since Pearl Harbor...]"

No, Bush is *not* responding to it. He's got us stuck in a country that had *nothing to do* with 9/11. The guy who planned the attack, is wandering around free! Porter Goss says he knows where Bin Laden is - why aren't we going after him then?

I supported Bush's invasion of Afghanistan.

Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, had no WMD's, and had far less to do with Al Qaeda than every single other country in the Middle East.

Most of the 9/11 attackers were Saudis. Bin Laden is Saudi. Not a single one was Iraqi. We invade Iraq.

1700 + US soldiers are dead, tens of thousands wounded, thousands of 'em maimed or crippled for life, we'll have uncountable levels of PTSD mental-health costs, families lives shattered forever, hundreds of billions of dollars spent, our children saddled with debt. The result? Worldwide terrorism has increased at record rates.

Bush has stretched the truth to the breaking point to get us to invade Iraq. Now that we're in there, he's screwed up, and can't admit a single mistake ever.

You might think Clinton's lying about an intern is worse. In the world of results, Clinton's lie did not cause a single soldier's death.

When you hire a mechanic, do you want one that doesn't cheat on his wife? Or do you want one that keeps your car running?

"6. You must be staring into your monitor. Hint: it's reflective[and this I can do with a clear conscience and the conviction of purpose]"

Sure you can! And you can also be wrong.

bbeck -
" Don't you even KNOW what "the Left" IS? "

Why don't you try and describe what you think the Left is, politically? As in, what specific historic policies do you think are Left?

And also, how do you distinguish Left, Liberal, and Democrat?

"Saying the government is driving off a cliff, when you in fact believe it is driving off a cliff, is patriotic. This fits your own definition of patriotism - "one who supports it's interests."

"Oh, so I WAS a patriot during Clinton's reign. Well shoot, boy, make up your mind!"

I am showing to you, how convenient your definition of patriotism is. When it's a president who you don't like, then you don't think undermining him is treason. When it's a president you do like, then you *do* think undermining him is treason.

Sounds awfully convenient to me.

" OTOH, claiming the government is driving off a cliff when you KNOW they're not driving off a cliff but instead they're making YOU look like a complete fool because you just hate hate hate Republicans is..."

Bush is supposed to be a grown-up. The only one making him look like a fool, is him. If we has doing things competently, no one would be able to have an argument against him.

I thought the conservatives were all about individual responsibility. This doesn't square with blaming Bush's problems on the liberals and the Democrats.

"well, here we have something close to "treason" but it's more like "idiocy." "

Right. That would be idiocy. And also it woudl be a logical impossibility, for more than 50% of the country to feel that way about Republicans, just because they hate Republicans.

Because that number also includes, according to the latest polls, a lot of Republicans, who feel Bush is taking this country in the wrong direction. And an even higher number of independents, who have no partisan bias.

So you just might consider the possibility, that what is now over 50% of the country, according to the latest polls, genuinely believes that Bush is leading this country in the wrong direction.

You don't have to agree with them. Just sit and think about that. That maybe people don't like Bush, because they think he's bad for America. Just like you thought Clinton was bad for America.

Neither of the people are traitors. We can argue about the facts, but we can at the same time all love America.

and, to wrap up bbeck -

"A current example? Wesley Clark.

Oh, THAT joke! He was a disgrace ..."

That bunch of gossip does not even answer my point. My point: Clark is an example of a patriot who disagrees with the Bush Administration. This disproves your contention, that all patriots must agree with the Bush Administration.

"I DID say it! And I don't think the government should be paid to PRETEND to fix anything!"

Then why do you think it's great that, under Bush, the EPA is doing less than it was previously?

Because now the EPA is getting paid to do next to nothing about what it's supposed to do.

Instead, Bush is letting taxpayer money deliberately go to waste, when we have a huge deficit, by pretending to let the EPA do it's job, while deliberately tying it's hands.

How does that fit your conservative ideals?

"But if you believe in results, you might think differently.

Guess you didn't see the word "pretend" all those times. Or it zipped over your head. "

Oh, I saw all the times you said 'pretend'. I'm calling your attention to the fact, that the Bush administration is in charge of the EPA, and is only *pretending* that he cares about what it does.

If Bush thinks there isn't a damn thing that should be done about the environment, then he should just be honest, find the balls to admit it, and stop spending tax dollars on it. Maybe our troops get some armor instead.

Jim,

Let's start with the middle class. Arnold Kling, among others, has pointed out that from 1996 to 2003, in constant 2003 dollars, the middle class did indeed shink. But so did every income category except for the >$75K range. So the real story may be that more of the middle class are entering the top income ranks, not being driven to the lower ranks as you assume.

Moving to the war. The President stated that he was going after all terror organizations and all nations harboring or supporting terrorists, not just the members of Al Qaeda. While Osama has become largely irrelevant in ongoing terrorist operations, it obviously remains desirable to capture him. Best guesses, however, are that he is in the mountains of Pakistan (probably not doing much "wandering around free." From the Telegraph (12/04):

"Three years after Osama bin Laden fled American bombs in his Tora Bora hideout, the search for the world's most wanted man has all but come to a halt because of Pakistan's refusal to permit cross-border raids from Afghanistan, according to CIA officials."

While we're on the subject of the war - this is the core of the patriotism discussion. The debate over the rationale for war is over until the war is won. Everyone had a chance to make their point in the 18 month "rush to war," and having made their point, the patriots will then support the administration and the country until the war is over.

As far as medicaid and other budget issues go, I think you'll find that the people here are not at all happy with the administration. Our criticism is dampened, however, because we spend most of our time defending the administration against the other ridiculous attacks against the war. We did like the tax cuts, because I think most on the right have a much higher opinion of the cuts' power of economic stimulus than do those of the left, but we would have preferred to see the cuts coupled with commensurate cuts in spending. But we rarely mention our criticisms to those of a liberal bent, because - why give you guys more ammo when it'll just make more trouble for the troops?

It does seem contradictory, however, to complain about Bush's economic stimulus packages on the one hand, and then turn around and claim that he has no plan for helping the middle and lower classes. You may think his plan misguided, but he clearly has been very proactive in trying to stimulate the economy.

As far as the polls go, it is clear that the latest push by the terrorists in Iraq has had a depressing effect on American morale. But the reports from the bloggers on the ground as well as the congressional testimony of the military leaders paint a more optimistic picture than that presented by the MSM. Based on the past track record of the MSM in analyzing and predicting events in Iraq, I'm not convinced that our position in Iraq is particularly dire.