I liked the first two Batman movies. Then again, I've never read the comics. There were parts of them that sucked (The Peguin comes to mind), but overall I thought they were entertaining. The subsequent sequels, however, were a travesty. Once you add Robin into the mix, the gay factor practically overwhelms the story.

I just read at Defamer that Kelsey Grammer was going to play The Beast in the next X-Men movie. Take that and run with it.

Thanks for that (you too, Jen). I am now sold.

Damn, why couldn't Liam Neeson train *Jedi* like that. That's what I wanted from the prequels-- Jedi Ninja shit.

As for Batman, yup, really looking forward to this one.

Oh, and BTW-- I agree completely with your "take it seriously" point. But you knew that already.

Wink at the audience, and you never recover your credibilty, or your suspsension of disbelief.

Cheers,
Dave at Garfield Ridge

I just read at Defamer that Kelsey Grammer was going to play The Beast in the next X-Men movie. Take that and run with it.

It could work. Remember, he's supposed to be ultra-cultured and intelligent, a super-scientist who just looks bestial.

Slap a lot of blue fur on Grammer. All you need is that impeccably-educated baritone and you've got Beast exactly.

Did I hear right? Is it true that Grammer is actually a lower-class or blue-collar kid who just learned to talk like he was a Boston Brahmin?

Dave,

Yeah, I used to say the rule was "no winking."

You can joke, but you wink at your peril.

I liked the first one, but it doesn't hold up to repeated viewing for the very reasons you list. The X-Men and Spiderman movies are a joy to watch repeatedly. Another example (though not necessarily a superhero) is "Escape From New York". It held up well until they made the campy sequal, then the whole Snake Pliskin franchise came tumbling down.

Yeah, it could work, but that voice. I still can't get used to Yoda sounding like Miss Piggy.

It worries me when I agree with you.

I think this Batman will be the real deal. Can hardly wait.

However I disagree about the Superman movies. While they were somewhat enjoyable, Christopher (rest in peace, he was a good man) Reeves, was a lame Superman. Too effeminate.

You an Oliver Willis agree on that one. You know, you two have quite a lot in common!

Meh. As long as they don't turn it into a weepy psychotherapy session for Bruce Wayne. I think you might've been suckered a bit by the (admittedly cool) action sequences, Ace, and missed the huge fucking warning sign when he starts talking about his guilt and his anger and his feelings and his trainer starts telling him he'll help him overcome and confront shit.

That sounds like the beginning of a goddamn chick flick to me, honestly. Batman didn't go around the world learning how to beat the shit out of people in order to work through his fucking feelings - he went around the world learning how to beat the shit out of people precisely in order to beat the shit out of people.

Once you start trying to justify or edge away from that you're already selling out the mythos. There's nothing more fundamental to the Batman story than Batman's motivations. Like Superman remembers him saying in DKR: "Sure we're criminals. We've always been criminals. We have to be criminals."

Batman's embarked on an endless, futile "holy war" (DKR, again). If they try to deny the essential darkness of that reality, try to turn it into some kind of "he's working through his feelings" shit, then it's absolutely inevitable that this movie, like all the others, will suck ass.

I hope I'm just reading way too much into the voice-over.

Megan,

I generally find you quite insightful, but I'm rather baffled that you think Batman's feelings -- grief, fear, anger, terror, hatred -- about his parents' murders are somehow foreign to the Batman mythos.

How many times do you need to be shown the picture of the young Bruce standing crying by his parents' cooling bodies?

Gotta differ on The Hulk, Ace. The cinematography and film-cutting did it for me -- using the comic book cuts and frame-layouts was cool. The Hulk effects were even cool. Eric Bana is a pussy, sure, but was was Banner in the comic book. Plus Jennifer Connelly could give a dead man a boner. It's too bad that Ang Lee couldn't figure out a way to get her into a thong bikini.

And Hulk will smash the puny human ass of anyone who dares to disagree.

I even liked The Punisher. So sue me.

And yes, this Batman movie looks like it will kick much ass.

Seriously. I know you're an intelligent person.

How the heck could you have missed all that? If you're quoting from DKR, you did notice there was a strong psychological component to it, right?

Maybe I'm missing your point, because what I think you're saying just makes no sense.

Ace, I don't think the existence of his feelings about the death of his parents is foreign to the mythos at all - I'm saying that's not what his training was about. His training, plain and simple, was about learning how to take the war to the criminals. That was always his intent, from the very beginning.

And he never used his war to work through or "overcome" his feelings. He uses his war to make sure no one else ever suffers those same feelings.

Batman is essentially a masochist. He doesn't WANT to feel better or overcome his guilt, his anger, and his hatred - because he'd be nothing without them. To miss that is to miss everything.

I'm very wary about any movie coming out in this Therapy Uber Alles culture. The opening remarks in the montage, to me, were a clear indication that it bought into that poisonous thinking.

The first Batman had its good points, and seeing as I was a wide-eyed yungin when it came out, it was a damn good movie to me at the time. And surprisingly, Michael keaton wasn't bad. Nicholson, a very good joker.

Now the subsequent films ... well, let's just say that when you put nipples on the Bat Suit, you've got a fucking problem.

The first Punisher, with Lundgren. could have been cool, but it managed to suck. Bad script. Lundgren could have pulled off Castle if he'd had more tools.

The new one was f'ing awesome, I thought.

I'm with Megan. Batman is the Dark Knight for a reason. He's supposed to be mysterious and dangerous. Picking away at his psyche like he's some kind of dumbass suffering a mid-life crisis in a second-rate shrink's office would ruin the whole thing. That's why I hated Spider-Man 2. Watching Spider-Man mope and whine through an existential crisis was not entertaining.

And I liked Punisher. Anti-personnel mines, a carpet full of guns, a fucking cross-bow, revenge. What's not to love? It's almost as good as Next of Kin.

Bill,

"when you put nipples on the Bat Suit, you've got a fucking problem"

truer word were never spoken.

Megan,

The line about "confronting your guilt" can be read a number of ways, and based on the smartness of the dialogue and direction and acting I've seen so far, I'd guess it's a smart reading they put into the line.

The trainer may mean that he can't act merely out of rage, but out of the guilt and responsibility he felt as a child to protect his parents although he was incapable of doing so. And so he must not simply be some thuggish knee-breaker, but channel his feelings of responsibility into being a Righteous Avenger.

You are assuming that this will be a dumb movie. Based on what I've seen so far, that's a bad assumption. Nothing I've seen so far would indicate it's anything less than smart and true to the mythos.

I'm not assuming it'll be a dumb movie - I'm just pointing out that those two lines in the montage raised the hairs on the back of my neck, in light of the first bunch of execrable fiascos, in light of our present-day analyse-everything, "overcome"-unpleasant-feelings, "conquer"-guilt culture, and the fact that almost all Hollywood movies are required to be "uplifting" in some way. A real Batman movie would have to go against every one of these trends, and the odds are against that.

But, as I said, it was two lines in one clip, so I'm not predicting a horrible disaster just yet. I'm hoping to be proven wrong. :)

Being a fan of Christian Bale's work, I couldn't help but notice in the training trailer the strong similarities between Bale's Batman with Bale's John Preston in the movie Equilibrium. I'm not sure such a reprise will be superior in Batman.

BTW, it looks like Liam Neeson has been handed the Sean Connery mantle of mentor/sensei to the macho guys who need training and polish. I dunno, was he as good in Kingdom as Connery was in Highlander? I won't even truck with his Jim Malone.

I had zero interest in seeing another Batman movie. I'm not sure what's worse: the stupid gay camp Batman of the late movies, or the "deep" Batman of the whole Dark Knight Returns cult.

The trailer -- which I just saw -- has changed my mind a bit, though. It looks like good ol' basic Batman. I mean, he's being trained by Qui-Gon Jin in this one. That's gotta count for something.

Huh. What do you have against DKR? I mean, apart from the wretched disaster that was DKSA...

Judging by the audience response to the Batman trailer at the midnight Sith showing, that movie is going to be *huge*.

Fantastic Four? You could tell the audience wanted to like it, but we're underwhelmed by a poor trailer. That, and Dr. Doom looks more like Dr. If-I-Get-Around-To-It-
After-I-Finish-My-Appletini-I-Will-Bring-Your-Doom.

Cheers,
Dave at Garfield Ridge

I've liked Neeson ever since Rob Roy when he made Tim Roth twice the man he'd been in the closing duel. Hell of a fight, Scottish basket-hilt broadsword vs. rapier, and it proved it's not who cuts first, it's who cuts best. For those of you who have not seen it, I recommend it highly.

Despite his goofy Jedi name (Quai-Gon sounds like a Chinese card game), he was great in that glob of excrement that was Phantom Menace, he was good in Kingdom of Heaven despite dying early, and I think he'll be good here. I'm just wondering why that ninja clan needed a round-eye to run it.