Color me unconvinced. But then again, I'm a race-baiting jingo/neo-facist bigot. Hah.

two guys murder a family for their atm card. Right...

Dont' forget, they carved holes in all their necks. Never mind they had multiple death threats made against them previously.

I'm thinking "the usual suspects" got rounded up on this one.

As I recall, a lot of valuables in plain sight were not taken. Call me suspicious...

Its the simplest solution without uncomfortable political ramifications.
It doesn't look good when you have video of these guys using their ATM.
If you must have the Islam connection, its possible that these cons had jailhouse conversions. Or it could've been a hit. Its not like these guys don't have petro-dollars to spare.
I also would like to know why a few suspects fled the country.
I question the timing.

Weren't these people Coptic Christians (Egyptian Christians; www.copts.com)?

I believe that there are large groups of Muslims and Coptic Christians in New Jersey, and this particular family was getting pretty vocal about their distaste for Islam, both online and in public.

This sure sounds like some revelations from Allah that Muhammad received regarding Christians and Jews:

"And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism, i.e., worshipping others besides Allah) and religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do."
--Surah 8:39, The Noble Quran

And this:

"O you who have been given the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Believe in what We have revealed (to Muhammad) confirming what is (already) with you, before We efface faces (by making them like the back of necks; without nose, mouth, eyes) and turn them hind-wards, or curse them as We cursed the Sabbath-breakers. And the commandment of Allah is always executed."
--Surah 4:47, The Noble Quran
In the Noble Quran, this Surah has a footnote at the bottom of the page, which reads "This Verse is a severe warning to the Jews and Christians, and an absolute obligation that they must believe in Allah's Messenger Muhammad and in his Message of Islamic Monotheism and in this Quran."

And this:

"Let not the Unbelievers think that they can get the better (of the godly): they will never frustrate them. Against them make read your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom you may not know, but whom Allah knows."
--Surah 8:50-60, Abdullah Usef Ali Translation

I may sound paranoid, but it sure seems to have all of the trappings of a terrorist hit job.

Of course, Ace is completely correct in saying that it's better to reserve judgment until the final truth comes out, but I'd aver that it's still OK to be suspicious until everything comes out.

I mean, NJ has lots of Muslims. And the last thing they need is a religious riot on their hands. If this was terrorism, they'd better get their case iron-clad before they say that. This isn't like the Shoe Bomber or other such lunatics. If this were an Islamic terrorist killing in the US, it must therefore be treated as a crime. But then, we are at war on terror (Islamic terror, mostly if not exclusively), and all government officials are trying to play a nice, careful game of balance.

And if they came out now and said it is a terror crime, and then were wrong on this, they could do some real damage to the Federal Government's war on terror. Who needs false accusations triggering riots from within? We're busy enough fighting this shit miles away from our own shores.

If it is terrorist-related, and they have iron-clad evidence, then, hopefully, cooler heads would prevail.

KCTrio

Sorry, forgot the verse of the sword:

"Fight and slay the Pagans wherever you find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful."
--Surah 9:5, Abdullah Usef Ali Translation

It wasn't fair of me to put up the other passages and leave this most important one out.

Loose shit (on my part),

KCTrio

And, here's the US Copts Association Official Statement on Armanious Family Murder Suspects (http://www.copts.net/detail.asp?id=648):

The U.S. Copts Association commends the Hudson County’s Prosecutor’s Office on its apprehension of the suspects involved in the Armanious family slayings. Throughout the investigation, we have joined with the Armanious family’s relatives to support Chief Prosecutor DeFazio in his search for possible motives and suspects.

Both the U.S. Copts Association and the Coptic-American community are relieved that the brutal murders of Hossam Armanious, Amal Garas, and their two daughters Sylvia and Monica appear to have been in no way religiously motivated.

Throughout our communications with the prosecutor, the FBI, and other officials, we have stressed law enforcement’s need to explore all possible options potentially leading to the murderers. As we have demonstrated through public statements and media appearances, we have exercised caution in proscribing a religious motive to the murders. We continue to endorse good relations between Egyptian Christian and Muslim communities, both in New Jersey and abroad.

The U.S. Copts Association expresses its deep condolences to the Garas family over the loss of their loved ones and calls upon the New Jersey state judicial system to ensure the killers are appropriately punished.

Seems like they are taking the cautious route. Good call, Ace. No need to start the drum-beating until we know more.

KCTrio

One more thing:

Thee are 700,000 Copts living in the US, 200,000 of which live in NJ. There are approximately 200,000 Muslims in NJ, also.

Just some stats for perspective.

KCTrio

Tinderbox.

In Egypt, Copts live in quiet fear. They stay the hell away from the Muslims, emotionally speaking and church-attendance speaking.

Yes, they can safely travel to Cairo and keep their crucifix around their neck (in Saudi Arabia, it'd be confiscated at the airport), and can safely walk the streets without being shot to death. But they still have to pay their jizyah (tax) to the authorities, or they won't be able to continue practicing their faith. And then they just might end up dead. Another thing keeps them safe in Egypt: many of them are wealthy business men. And they attend university and serve in the military. And the Coptic Orthodox Pope lives in Cairo. Not too bad, by Arab standards.

Outside of Cairo, it's not as safe. Plus, about once every six months, a family or three will get slaughtered, and the government will do a pretty good job of cleaning up the messy business and keep it out of the media. And by slaughtered, I mean burned alive, bodies slit open from neck to abdomen, nice stuff like that.

So, the Copts leave Egypt, and obviously many have chosen New Jersey as their new home. There, they feel less afraid to keep silent, so they speak their mind and speak openly about their faith, just like anyone can do in America.

But then, there's all of those 200,000 Muslims there, too. I'd say that more than 95% are secular or traditional Muslims that pray, give alms, fast, accept Allah as the only true God, and accept Muhammad as His prophet, and make at least one trip to Mecca (if they can), but ignore Jihad. The traditional Muslims do all of those things, and consider Jihad a mental struggle (Sufism movement). All in all, they're probably pretty peaceful, kind, and very decent folks.

But then there are the fundamentalists. How many of those 200,000 in NJ are in this category? I don't know, but let's say it's 0.5%. That gives us 500 fanatics in the Garden State. So, if the Copts speak out in New Jersey, unlike they can do in Egypt, then those 500 radicals would be hell-bent on slaughtering some of those 200,000 Copts.

To put it more mildly, they'd be hell-bent on slaughtering the ones that are vocal about their Christian faith and denounce Islam. That's probably not that many Copts. But you see, if some radical Muslims did do this killing, it'd strike a pretty powerful message of fear in the hearts of those 200,000. And it just may yield the desired effect of some of them shutting their mouths out of fear, just like they do in Egypt.

I say, from this inductive speculation (granted, inductive logic is weak), it seems at least possible that the slaughter of this family was perpetrated by radical Muslims.

Just speculating. I'd love to admit that my speculation is wrong and it does turn out not to be the work of Muslim radicals. But as I stated before, if it turns out that it was, do you think those 200,000 NJ Copts will take it by standing silent? No. They'll push it to the hilt, using every legal means at their disposal, including the media, the judiciary and the law enforcement community. And some may even break the law. The question then becomes, how would the radical Muslims respond?

Don't know.

Where's Joe?

KCTrio

Sorry, more loose shit.

My numbers were of by 1/2. So, I'll keep the numbers the same, but assume 0.25% of those 200,000 Muslims in NJ are Islamic radicals.

Sorry for the loose shit.

KCTrio

um you guys are missing a bunch of info here. check out jihadwatch.org for more on this.

When they release pics of the supposed murderers and the ATM video I'll give some credence to this. Until then, it's highly dubious.

Teri:

I've followed this story from the beginning. It would have been better to provide the link to the rundown at Jihad Watch, but I didn't want to get into the motives or theories behind the killings. Others touched on those, indirectly perhaps, but they did touch on them. People in the comments mentioned the ATM video, and some other (light) aspects of the crime. Most said something along the lines of "I'm not ready to buy into this." And the folks at Jihad Watch say basically the same thing.

Instead of missing something, I simply tried to provide a perspective that perhaps some might not have considered...you know, the big picture sort of stuff.

Jihad Watch touches upon things I did leave out by making this statement:

It does, however, seem to eliminate the possibility that these killings were an American version of the Theo van Gogh murder in Holland: a Sharia-prescribed killing in a non-Muslim country for what is a crime only under Islamic law.

I had left out the Sharia part. Why? Sharia is Islamic Law developed over centuries, some ancient, some modern, and isn't tied directly to the most important aspects of Islam, the Quran and the hadith (the books on the life of Muhammad; acceptance of the six books of the hadith is what separates the Shiite from the Sunni sects of Islam; the Sunnis accept them all, the Shiites reject a significant amount of it, the stuff written by Muhammad's second wife).

The Sharia is man's attempt to make law out of those two primary sources; you know, agreed upon ideas that have been developed by scholars for centuries. I'm no Islamic scholar, and I'm sure a scholar of that type would probably be laughing at me for trying to summarize stuff that would take a treatise, but I believe the Quranic references I provided, the link to the Copts Web site, the numbers of Copts in NJ, and the number of Muslims in NJ provided some amount of enrichment for those that may have lacked that knowledge.

I took a speculative approach, using inductive reasoning; not the safest way to go about this stuff, facts are needed. And while though the stuff posited at Jihad Watch may be fact-based, it doesn't provide a complete picture of the crimes. And to paint that complete picture, you need all of the facts, or as many as possible. And that's basically why I tried to avoid fact-based speculation (which one cannot do if one lacks half of the facts); partial-fact-based speculation is the equivalent of conspiracy theory mental masturbation. And it also gives voice to CAIR and other such organizations to lash out in the media and scream "Insensitive! Hate speech! We're a religion of peace! You Americans are hurting our way of life!" And in a way, they'd be right. Or at least, they could claim discrimination and get any damn media outlet in the country to give them time.

Do the Copts get that kind of exposure? No, they don't. Their numbers aren't as big, and they don't have as big of a public relations war to fight. They want to simply live in freedom in a country where they aren't mental slaves living in fear. That's why the Copts' public relations guys are preaching patience and temperance, not pointing fingers at anyone until the truth comes out. At least that's what their mouthpiece is doing. So give them some credit for being temperate, and let the CAIR people keep making themselves look like the boy who cried wolf.

That's enough typing for this post.

Best regards, and thanks for the link, Teri.

KCTrio

Rare surfing on the weekend, but I've got to say that Sanchez and McDonald as killers isn't mutually exculsive from a jihadi slaying. After all, it doesn't say that Sancez/McDonald are NOT muslim. Plus, the ritualized manner of the killings (cutting out the cross tatos on the wrists, etc.) strongly suggests Islamic motives.

My brother's a Sufi and his legal name is still just as western as Johnny Carson.

I, for one, call shenanigans on the cops' "discovery" of a non-religious motive.

hobgoblin:

I'm really intrigued. I've just begun digging into Islam. I've started with the Noble Quran, and have read Dr. Mark Gabriel's book, which is more of a story rather than a scholarly treatise.

And Jihad Watch provides many links to some books that explain the religion (though they are all written from a specific bias), and I plan on reading those, but to have the chance to know more about a Sufi sounds like a real delight and a rare opportunity.

I know many Arabs in my community and through my professional colleagues, but most are Catholic that have left their home countries to come to the States.

I am good friends with a few Palestinian Arab Muslims who talk to me for brief periods about 4 times per week, but they are very anti-Israel (I don't blame them in the least, these people are very kind and have lived here in my area for most of their lives, but travel to Palestine every year for 2 months. They are brothers and own a 7-11 type store, and alternate who goes every summer so the store stays open). So with these two fellows, I get the anti-Israel viewpoint. I say they are kind because they really are. They have their political beliefs but are good friends with people of every ethnic background. They always give my children treats whenever I go in their store, and they are good businessmen.

I'm just curious. Do you have any suggestions for me so that I could learn a bit more? I'm learning on my own, but some good books or even a few anecdotes of your brother's outlook would be of great interest to me.

If you feel compelled to share, I would be most pleased. But I'll leave that judgment in your good hands.

Best regards,

KCTrio

Teri:

Take a look at this post from Jihad Watch's Hugh Fitzgerald:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/005245.php#more

You may find some of Mr. Fitzgerald's observation are quite close to the items I posted over the last 36 hours. I'm not trying to sound arrogant here, but you'll note while reading this some similarities between this post and the ones I made. Of course, their analysis is far superior to mine. I'm struggling in the darkness while they are clearly experts in this area.

Just thought I'd point this link out to you and others. It's quite an interesting take on these matters.

Best regards,

KCTrio