"Damn that Bush! Damn him! Damn him! Damn him!" - Howard Dean, upon hearing that the Pro-Syria government in Lebanon had retired.

"God I hate that weasel, Bush." Hillary Clinton

"But Lebanon did not pass the Global Test!...Did I mention I was in Vietnam?" John Kerry

"Not in our name!"

Hey Ace, perhaps this is not the place for this, but I'm going to advertize a Dutch blog (who does his reporting in English) here . Although the translations can be somewhat shoddy, the guy who runs is doing a fair job. The blog give good comments and background information on the current affairs in the Low countries.

Have a peek, please.

I need coffee. Posting in the wrong thread. My mistake.

Notice the one guy getting some 'attention' from a nightstick is in a Columbia sweatshirt :)

Lebanon has been a democracy with elections for 40 years. Two weeks ago the former prime minister was murdered. That, and not Bush, is the impetus for the current events. To give credit to Bush is simply misleading and historically inaccurate.

Pay no attention to the man playing Global Dominoes behind the curtain.

"MyCountry" is, of course, ignoring Walid Jumblatt, a central figure in the protests (and someone who doesn't like America too much) who says that the reason this is happening is because the Lebanese people saw what happened in Iraq.

Pretending that occupied Lebanon is a democracy in any other than the pretend sense is just dishonest.

Not in Their Names

These poor dupes, enslaved to a false consciousness of patriotism and nationalism, actually believe that kicking out the Syrian "occupiers" will alleviate their poverty and political corruption. Meanwhile, the neocons and their Zionist paymasters are salivating at the prospect of filling the resultant power vacuum in the world's largest exporter of cedar and cedar accessories with Israeli troops and resource-extractive American corporations. Now, only Hezbollah and the Iranian mullahs stand between the indigenous peoples of the Middle East and the utter rapine of American-Zionist state corporate capitalism. This is quite reminiscent of the crony capitalism introduced to some of the former Soviet Republics by the American Empire in hopes of securing oil concessions. Those events are still playing out but the situation does not look good at present, with the Ukraine being the most recent victim of the American Tide. Belarus, Turkmenistan and Chechnya remain the only hopes for anti-imperialist self-determination in the former Soviet Republics. It remains to be seen whether radical Islamism can survive as a check upon American Aspirations in the Middle East and Asia. Transnational progressives must continue to support indigenous people's movements even as we also support efforts to remediate the elements of those movements which are reactionary and retrograde.

Saw the ad: Should Michael Jackson go to jail? Well, to be fair to Michael, perhaps he didn't know that seducing terminally ill children is a crime because it's such a normal event at Neverland.

(shudder)

Good one, Tongueboy.
That idiot above saying how occupied Lebanon was a 'Democracy' could have written that.

NO BLOOD FOR CEDAR!

"the neocons and their Zionist paymasters ..."

They've all been very naughty and need a good spanking.

LauraW, Lebanon fits the definition of democracy, regardless of its levels of hypocrisy. To say Bush deserves credit for the current change in government is just ridiculous. And to bandy the word "idiot" rather than offer a counter argument speaks to your idiocy and tendancy to offer emotive rather than logical arguments on this blog site. Go read something.

Lebanon has been a democracy for 40 years, yes, and the Dalai Lama has been on an extended sabbatical.

You're right, it was pure emotion to call you an idiot, you asshat. I'm sorry that I have no proof to back up my assertion that you actually wear your own ass as if it were a stylish fedora. I also say, without any support, that you even put a feather in it.

Yet I stand by my completely unverifiable claim with unshakeable faith in the Power of Slander.

MyCountry, when you say silly s*** like "Lebanon has been a democracy with elections for 40 years" here at good ol' AoSHQ you better be prepared for a rhetorical ass whupping. This ain't the Dummy Underground you know.

You are funny when you emote, that's for sure. I'll never argue with your sense of humor. Lebanon is a democracy, as is- let's throw in- Columbia. They have levels of hypocrisy that obscure their very definition as democracys. However, by definition they meet more than one requirement of what "makes" a democracy. These two countries have constitutions and regularly vote to elect officials. Lebanon has had one since 1943. Every four years a new prime minister is elected. The level of hypocrisy will not necessarily change with the new government, expected to be elected in the next two weeks, regardless of Iraq or Palestine or Iran. The change in government was spurred on by the assasination, not domino playing behind the curtain.

P.S. I saw the comment spam for the 'Free Spyware Remover' and thought "who would get a spyware remover from a comment spammer?". Then I read MyCountry's comment and answered my own question.

I don't feel whipped BrewFan. I have had a good laugh via LW's always ready sense of humor. Though I still haven't heard a counter argument that refutes the fact that Lebanon has a constitution, regularly elected parliament, etc, and is therefore a democracy with multiple parties. I think we'll only come to agree on the levels of hypocrisy. But it's lazy to call someone an idiot w/o a counter argument.

The change in government was spurred on by the assasination, not domino playing behind the curtain.
Hmmm...Walid Jumblatt or MyCountry...Walid Jumblatt or MyCountry. Well, as I've never heard of MyCountry and doubt that he's ever been anywhere near Lebanon and as Walid Jumblatt is actually there, knows the people protesting and their situation, I'm highly tempted to believe Walid Jumblatt and say that MyCountry doesn't have a clue. That's just me, of course. The rest of you are free to believe cluless.

Yes, it is most definitely laziness.
Sometimes I get the urge to engage in a long discussion with a lefty; but I realize its all been done, been said before. By me when I had more energy. By others.

It is as pointless an exercise as you making the bizarre statement that Lebanon is a democracy, then a minute later having to modify that by saying Lebanon meets the technical definition though we know in fact it does not function truly democratically.

So what is the fucking point of the original statement, "Lebanon has been a democracy with elections for 40 years," ??

But as long as you're sapping my precious precious strength, you fucking energy vampire, let's GO.

Isn't it at all possible that the the assassination became a flashpoint for actual change because the Lebanese saw the Afghan and Iraqi elections and thought to themselves, 'Why not here?'

After all, assassinations are not exactly rare in that part of the world, yet true political change rarely flows from them. What is different now?

shit, I can't believe I'm doing this again. I hate you with every part of my enormous spleen.

So, MyC, how's this,

Under your logic, the USSR was a democracy, just one with a touch of "hypocrisy" (though I have no idea how a country can practice a human trait [perhaps you mean "inconsistency"])? In fact, the USSR's bill of rights was quite a bit mor eexpansive in scope than the USA's. So, in fact, according to you, Soviet Russians were more free than Americans. Because the USSR had a constituion and "elections," right?

I mean, they had only one party, sure, but the people voted. In fact, so did Iraq under Saddam.

Jeez, China's got some type of plebicite, don't they?

Shit the whole world is democratic, right, except for america, where the fraudulent voters in Ohio were "disenfranchised."

Or maybe you won't go that far, and instead just insist on being pedantic.

You're being an ass, and you know it.

Since Syria invaded and suppressed opposition parties in Lebanon, no reasonable person can call Lebanon anything more than a puppet governemnt and a client state of Syria.

How "democratic" does that seem?

"Hey honey, come here quick. Bring some popcorn. MyCountry is getting beat like a red headed step child."

Now THATS Entertainment!

I forgot to add: Idiot.

He's figuring out a way to tweak the argument so that he can be technically right about everything and also tell us that we haven't really answered the charge yet.

I been here before. Its not intellectually exhasting, its exhausting because I know exactly what is going to happen next, so why bother?

And we're not even to the best part yet:

[Talking out of] MyAss sez:

"That, and not Bush, is the impetus for the current events. To give credit to Bush is simply misleading and historically inaccurate"

OK moron. Let's get this clear. Syria has ruled Lebanon with an Iron Fist (note the caps) since it invaded. Syria's execution of the former PM would have been sucked up by the Lebanese just 2 years ago, as so many other protests and crackdowns before.

You are a moron---seriously, a moron---if you expect anyone here to believe Bush's muscular intervention in Iraq and Afganistan didn't act exactly as a 350# bodybuilder with a baseball bat standing behind the Lebanese "little guy."

Props to the Lebanese for standing up to Syria. After the last 20 + years of oppression that took a LOT of testicular fortitude. Good on them.

But make NO mistake, the USA's intervention into the ME (whether you agree with it or not) has caused Libya, Egypy, Syria, Lebanon, the UAE, and even Fraudi Arabia to seriously reconsider their coddling of fanatics and their oppression of their own people.

Get a fucking clue asshole.

Walid Jumblatt is anti-Syrian. He has been since 1976. It benefits him to court the Bush administration, regardless of past anti-American comments. He said HE was inspired by the fall of Saddam. If he speaks for all Lebanese, as many on this thread suggest, it is with his political ambitions in mind, i.e. the complete withdrawal of Syria and his ascendancy.

I'm sure Jumblatt reads the papers and heard Bush's call for the spread of democracy, something us liberals get down with, regardless of your rightest superiority complex. Jumblatt is a newly fashioned/re-minted politico, who speaks for himself and his own ambitions. He's an opportunist who will use Bush's rallying call to advance his position, knowing Syria is in the crosshairs. He'll change as the political wind suits. But, if people respond to his "voice" and it becomes the pivit around which Lebanon becomes a truly "liberal" democracy, than hey, sounds good to me. I should have made the distinction between liberal and technical democracy to begin- duly noted.

And Walid cloned himself 60,000 times to create the crowd that mearched to oust Syria.

Who are you MyAss, Bashar Assad?

What a fucking sub-retard you are.

it is with his political ambitions in mind, i.e. the complete withdrawal of Syria and his ascendancy.

Two different things, asshat.

Most Lebanese want Syria out. I'd guess around 70-80% (just a guess based on observations from Lebanese, turnout, enthusiasm, and general human nature, take it for what it's worth).

Why don't YOU answer the question of whether the USSR was a democracy. If not, explain why. (100 words or less)

feeling too lazy right now to answer you

MyAss-I should have made the distinction between liberal and technical democracy to begin-

Then your whole fucking statement wouldn't make any sense whatsoever.

You were denigrating the developments in Labanon to score partisan points. Just admit you were lying, misinformed, or wrong.

And don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out, troll.

MyAss - feeling too lazy right now to answer you

Translation: I have lost. I will now go masturbate to Bea Arthur pictures and cry into my greasy, semen stained pillow.

Lebanon is a democracy that the Syrians have meddled in for years. The structure is in place to receive a different government. My argument included "levels of hypocrisy" that always kept the country from enjoying a truly liberalized democracy.

couldn't find any good Bea Arthur porn, troll?

MyAss - My argument included "levels of hypocrisy" that always kept the country from enjoying a truly liberalized democracy.

Bullshit.

Let us take the wayback machine to MyAss' original post -

Lebanon has been a democracy with elections for 40 years. Two weeks ago the former prime minister was murdered. That, and not Bush, is the impetus for the current events. To give credit to Bush is simply misleading and historically inaccurate.

The thrust of yoour entire argument was that "it's not to Bush's credit," & Syria would still be "meddling" (read controlling like a fucking puppet, moran) in Lebanon's affairs. But it's not b/c of Bush, right?

WRONG, asshole.

It IS b/c of Bush that the Lebanese had the ability to throw off the Syrian's puppet government.

Gotta go to lunch, MyAss.

Let's see what nonsequiturs and evations you post while I'm gone.

LOSER.

And don't forget your USSR homework, troll.

The name calling is frat boyish. I've made my points, conceded I was wrong- when needed, which explains the first post. The USSR example is ridiculous. A troll hides, I don't. Have a good lunch.

I'm back.

MyAss, this is Ace's. We call our friends names. you aren't going to get any special treatment on account of your mental disability.

And you haven't made or defended your "point" MyAss.

Your point was that Bush shouldn't get credit for Lebanon. I'm saying that's a bunch of bullshit. Now are you going to defend that point or continue the trollish behavior of not addressing the argument?

You implicitly ignore the timing of the protests, the brutality of the Syrians (the Hama Massacre anyone?), and the last 20+ years of brutal Syrian occupation, all to say that Lebanon was/is a democracy and Bush hasn't helped squat.

Please, oh great and venerable sage, pray tell how the fact that Bush wiped out the Taliban and pushed elections through in Iraq has NO impact on why the Lebanese all of the sudden chose this particular assasination of a former PM to protest?

I argue it's b/c the Syrians know that if they so much as twiched, the 3rd ID would be knocking on Baby Assad's door.

Why do you think Syria withdrew all of its troops to the Bekaa valley after the protests?

Not b/c Booosh was sending them a strong, behind the scenes message by withdrawing our ambassador, huh?

No, that couldn't be it.

Really, you're going to get called names when you advance idiotic theories. Expect it. Especially here at Ace's.

Now go run along back to DU and tell them how you gave the wingnuts hell, General Patton.

Hiding behind your pappy so that you can call names and take a condescending tone is once again indicative of frat boy behavior. As for trolling: In my book, a troll hides and pretends to be of the group, so I don't consider myself a troll. You say people: "chose this particular assasination of a former PM to protest". I said the same thing, while applauding the possible rise of a Syrian free govt. The moment may be ripe due to many reasons, including American success abroad. Really, the strong arming and hostilty doesn't win any of you any points with me and other people who may be open to thinking about politics in new ways. I began posting simply to point out that Lebanon has had a democratic form of govt. I hear your pts. and I will keep them in mind as more develops.

I'm beginning to think MyCountry *likes* to be spanked!

Which reminds me of a joke: What did the sadist do to the masochist? Nothing.

And I'm beginning to think you like to watch, popcorn and all.

No, pissing off of a balcony is frat boy behavior.

Calling you names is immensely satisfying. At least you have taken it well. You have had the good grace not to invoke that whole neocon/Hitler/cognitive dissonance crapola.

Your response, while still somewhat unintelligible, has been polite and we like a polite troll....for me to poop on!

MyAss,

You seem to think I care to debate with you. You're wrong. I just want to show you how poorly you have thought out your position and

Let's compare (again):

Lebanon has been a democracy with elections for 40 years. Two weeks ago the former prime minister was murdered. That, and not Bush, is the impetus for the current events. To give credit to Bush is simply misleading and historically inaccurate.

with:

The moment may be ripe due to many reasons, including American success abroad.

I'd have to say:

One of these things is not like the other . . .

You can do one of two things. Which you chose will effect the way I at least treat you from here on out. You can either (a) admit that Bush is at least partially responsible for Syria's actions; or (b) defend your original point with facts as opposed to conclusory statements.

My facts are this: Syria has no compunction against killing civilians in large numbers, deliberately (Hama), Syria has exercised autocratic control over Lebanon's "democratic" government for 20+ years, and Syria backed down from 60,000 unarmed civilians for no discernable reason. My answer? Bush with the big stick standing behind the demonstrators.

What's your theory?

Calling me a frat boy? Thanks. It's been about 13 years since I've been one, but that makes me feel young again. Wonder if I can still funnel an Icehouse?

As far as hiding, I'm right here. I haven't called for you to be banninated. And it is not I who has appealed to authority. I'm just telling you, as a noob and a "dissident" how things work around here. I'm doing you a favor.

And a troll isn't a spy, it's a person who disagrees for the sake of disagreement, moves the goalposts, and refuses to engage losing arguments directly. (the "feeling too lazy right now to answer you" was a classic troll move, so you can see how one might get confused) Normally, I'd ignore you, but you did say you've admitted your error. I just want you to make it explicit. If so, you're a provacateur but worthy of discussion (like our pal Ryan). If not, you're just on the "scroll-by" list.

Your choice

(Brewfan I get the point about feeding the trolls, but I think there might be hope here)

Yes, you checked your good grace at the return key.

Ahhh, that's settled then.

**scroll**

What are the sufficient conditions for democracy, MyCountry? (Which country, I wonder.)

You seem to think elections are a necessary condition. What other factors are necessary?

Please list them.

Then, when we've firmly planted the goal posts, we can form cogent arguments. And the first one to move the goal can be determined the loser by BrewFan, who is watching.

I'll let you set the ground rules. Once and only once.

And if you set them poorly, all here can judge you foolish and unworthy of further pixels.

Your move.

Birkel, MyAss has forsaken ace's for a more suitable locale (one with sufficient Bea Arthur porn)

I've done some reading in the last few hours, notably at a few house.gov sites. I had no idea for instance that:

In October 1995, Syrian President Hafiz al-Assad announced President Harawi's term in office would be extended for 3 years. Eight days later, the Lebanese Parliament passed a constitutional amendment to permit the extension, and President Harawi was sworn in for an extended term the following month.

I understand now why my remarks were taken with such criticism. I had no idea of the in-depth history of the region. I had no idea that Syria held such an iron grip over Lebanon. So, I understand why you read me the riot act. I don't appreciate the names, etc, but I understand. A few links would have been helpful. As for the "I'm feeling too lazy" comment, regarding the USSR, that was a pick up on an earlier comment made by LauraW. So, I stand corrected. I can't comment on what Bush has or hasn't done right now. I'm still reading.

"I can't comment on what Bush has or hasn't done right now. I'm still reading.
"

Illegal Procedure, moving the goal posts!

(carry on hobgoblin/Birkel)

MyCountry supposed "And I'm beginning to think you like to watch, popcorn and all. "

You thought, you thought, you thought seven f'n things today! Well you're on notice!

I take responsibility for the above. Loose sh*t.

Brewfan,

I don't think so. MyC has admitted his (im going to use the generic masculine) error in a manly way. There's a way to go, but he's stepped up and admitted he made an error in judgment on his original post. The discussion can move along from here.

Good on ya, MyC.

A little learnin is a dangerous thing, though. Soon you might start reading LGF, adn then --woo-hee---look out.

As for names, again, this is ace's. It's a little more profane here, mostly because the posters tend toward the juvenile in attitude (I think we're all pretty old, though, just immature). Plus, we tend to the partisan end of the spectrum and have had a few too many moron visiotrs from DU and kos to suffer apparent fools lightly.

But again, MyC, I commend your stepping up. Let's see where you get with your research.

Ha, yes BF I know. I'm ready to punt. I should note, it makes complete sense to assume Bush et al are pulling levers to oust Syria. There are a few articles online that discuss Syria's WMDs and ties to Iran. I hope it happens.

Since I have name recognition I'll release the following detail: She. Thanks for the post HG.

Don't let it fool you hobgoblin. It made a strawman with the 'Lebanon Democracy' crap but its basic premise (and heartfelt belief I'm sure) was Bush deserves no credit for the positive things happening in the Middle East. Its not backing off that point, its doing more 'reading'.

"But it's lazy to call someone an idiot w/o a counter argument" - MyCountry

"Just admit you were lying, misinformed, or wrong." -hobgoblin

"I understand now why my remarks were taken with such criticism. I had no idea of the in-depth history of the region." -MyCountry

My gigantic spleen is trying to find room for MyCountry's admission. Please hold...unh...ack...
Gallbladder full to the rim with bile! Can't...hold..it, Cap'n! She's agonna bloww! All I'm capable of right now is pointing and laughing, which is dreadful schoolyard behavior, even for me. Fortunately my standards are low.
I've pulled arguments out of my ass too, MyCountry. There, there.

Uh oh
"Go read something." -MyCountry (to Lauraw)

Mwaaa ha haaaaaaaaaaaaa
Whups, a little bile leaked. Some club soda will get that out.

It's true, the "more reading" comment sounds silly, but it's honest. I'm in a strange, sometimes schizophrenic, spot. I'm an honest person. And I honestly feel torn politically.

Hysterical.

BTW hobgoblin, I'd like to let you and every one else go on believing the sadist/masochist line was a subtle but profound clue to not feed the trolls but, lets be honest, i was just telling a joke :)

BF if you're insinuating that I'm here for a beating you're mistaken. I can admit when I'm wrong w/o jerking off to Bea Arthur wielding a cat-o'-nine-tails.

Ewwwww

What do you do when you're right??

BTW, you've been swell through all these flames.
A round of applause for MyCountry!

*clap clap clap*

I don't think you came here for a beating but you sure got one. As far as Bea Arthur porn goes you need to take that up with hobgoblin. That is not a mental picture I'd ever care to draw.

Ha. When I'm right- I play troll at kos. Just joking! I'm retiring now to a semi-embarassed slumber.

Gotta work on that spelling, goodnight all.

Well, that went rather well.

Good on ya, MyCountry, for doing the learning thing.

If you can make it a habit and tell two friends and then they tell two friends, et cetera, perhaps Ace will get as much credit for reforming DU as Bush may get for reforming the Middle East.

Having received your punt, I am taking my ball and going home.

Best to you...

MyC - See, it's just like an episode of Facts of Life where everyone hugs in the end, except for Bea Arthur porn (sorry, it's just the Farker in me).

MyC, I consider your honesty and willingness to admit error a very noble (and wo-manly) trait.

Listen, we're all here to discuss things honestly and with some humor. Unfortunately you came in with the wrong comment at the wrong time. I'm glad you kept at it throught the flaming, b/c I think you might be on to something.

If you're "honestly torn" politically, then you're in good company with about 80% of the population (excludig the hardcore 10% on each side). When even Jon Stewart is questioning his anti-Bushness, there's room for everyone to learn.

Reflexive defensiveness from the election will take a while to dissipate. For some on the left, it looks like it might never go away, just calcify into a hard hatred of all things Republican.

But the best thing you can do is keep asking questions. You'll realize that neither party is right all the time, but that Democrats seem to be wrong more often lately because of their hatred for Bush and the resultant anti-Americanism. It was the same way with Republicans after Eisenhower -- they were completely out of power and took a hard right turn. The Left's doing the same thing. Except they're siding with our foreign enemies instead of our domestic malcontents like the Repubs did in the 1960s.

You can be liberal and still be smart on the War on Terror. See Charles Johnson, Roger Simon, Michael Totten, etc. I'm not liberal like they are, but I agree with them on the important stuff. Once we get that taken care of, then we can sit down and fight about social security.

I put in my regular email on this post if you (or anyone else) want to contact me.