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December 02, 2004
What Are the Conservative Protest Anthems?That Ukranian protest song got me thinking. We all make fun of the painfully-earnest and stridently-liberal balladeers who fill us with so much excess stomache acid, but, hey, I'll be the one to admit it: I'm jealous. Where's my protest anthem? Where's my catchy sing-a-long rock rebellion? Sure, such songs don't really advance a philosophical position. They're the near-religious chants of the already-converted. But damnit, it gets kinda tedious just quoting Larry Kudlow and Deborah Orin all day. Why can't we occasionally just be able to sing our politics and maybe even groove to it? "Preaching to the converted" is almost always said dismissively, but the converted do need a lot of preaching, too. The Prodigal Son is great and all, but how about a little attention to the faithful flock once in a while, too? If you're on the left, you have your pick of poisons. You can hum along to Bruce Springsteen's drunken-stumble mumblings on 41 Shots. You can rant along with Public Enemy. You can, even, dig on that funky fiddling in a Dixie Chicks song. But on the right, we've only got a few anthems. Well, if you count country music (and yes, increasingly I do, but I'm still a rock guy at heart), I guess you've got a lot bigger choice as far as musical affirmation. But keeping it strictly to rock, punk, and related genres, what the hell out there is there to crank in order to annoy the liberal neighbors? Jesus Jones was probably as left-wing as any band, but at least they had the good sense to be unambiguously and unconflictedly celebratory about the fall of the Evil Empire. Right Here, Right Now captures the magical feeling of that moment pretty effectively. I'm not big on abortion politics, but the Sex Pistols' Bodies is about as stridently pro-life a song as you're likely to hear this side of, say, Amy Grant. And that's all I can think of off the top of my head. I'm sure Ted Nugent's put out some pro-conservative tracks, but I'm also quite sure I've never heard them. (I don't count Wang Dang Sweet Pootang as having much of a political import, except, perhaps, as an affirmation of heterosexual coupling.) The only real conservative protest anthems are only such if considered metaphorically, or loosely. There aren't too many songs with lyrics which explicitly champion conservatism. The best you can find, really -- and this is either sad or pretty cool, depending on your taste -- is the sort of dunderheaded fuck-you heavy metal screw-your-parents-and-teachers rock of the eighties. The actual specifics of the lyrics are usually pretty irrelevant to politics -- unless your politics is in fact fighting for your right to party -- but often just the attitude and a phrase in a chorus is close enough to an expression of the conservative discontent as to qualify as a bona fide political anthem. And the song that I think is best example of this is Twisted Sister's We're Not Gonna Take It. Yeah, it's kinda silly, but that guitar and drum really kick, and the lyrics, actually, are pretty easily read as a conservative manifesto: We've got the right to choose it If anyone can top that -- by a rock performer, not by Darryl Whorley, Tobey Keith, or Charlie Daniels -- I'd like to know about it. NOTE: Dee Snyder seems to say "don't pick YOUR destiny" pretty clearly, but that lyric makes no damn sense. Printed lyrics have it as "don't pick OUR destiny," which actually does make sense. I'm using the "our" version and figuring Snyder just blew the take on that particular version of the vocal track. ANOTHER NOTE: Who knew there was such discrepency about TS lyrics? Tall Dave claims that the lyric is "boring and confUscated" (confused), not "confIscated" (stolen), and he says that Dee Snyder himself claims this. Um, maybe. But "confiscated" works better on the anti-tax tip, and besides, dude, I just listened to it three times-- it sure sounds like "confIscated." Dorky Window Into the Mind of An Idiot: When I write, I usually have a theme song for the piece which I play incessantly until I'm done. I've listened to Queen's Another One Bites the Dust all through the writing of a screenplay, for example; I swear, I heard it more than a thousand times in a two month period. I've also used Rocky Mountain Way and Positive Bleeding for others. Even Dean Martin's Ain't That a Kick in the Head. This dumb song -- We're Not Gonna Take It -- was my go-to song throughout the presidential campaign. Whenever I'd really feel stuff flowing, whenever I thought we were ahead, I'd hear that cowbell-heavy drum intro at the start of the song. That was sort of my "Let's Kick Ass" soundbite in September and October. I Meant to Mention This Update: Bush made use of a song in the 2000 campaign that thrilled me. At one appearance -- only one I know of -- in Florida on one of the last days of campaigning, if not the last day, he began a rally by playing Don't Stop (Thinking About Tomorrow) and then scrrraaaaatched that record off in favor of The Who's Won't Get Fooled Again. Now that's a Yeeeaaaaahhhhh! that puts Howard Dean's to shame. Jeff B. is another one of those fucking government-trained brain-snoops who's always poking into my noodle and swiping all my good ideas. He writes: I've said this before when people talk about there being no great rock anthems which espouse classically "conservative" or "right-wing" political views: the greatest one has been sitting under your noses for years, and familiarity has dulled you to its message. Okay, I'll give you that one too. But I still give the nod to TS, because that Who song, like so many other Pete Townsend songs, is a bit "thinky" for my moron mind to grasp. I'll also say that that song is more about skepticism of one political movement in favor of apathy and dropping out, not in favor of supporting another political movement. Lennon's Revolution says pretty much the same thing. Another Good One: Garfield Ridge offers "The Imperial March," the Vader anthem from Empire Strikes Back Okay, yeah, that fits. And it's great. But it doesn't rock. Garfield Ridge likes to argue, and as evidence that the Imperial March can rock, he offers this death-metal styled version of the theme, as well as a version by No Doubt. I don't know. Without seeing Gwen Stefani, or at least hearing her, No Doubt is basically just an even dorkier version of Oingo Boingo. How Could I Forget? Alex offers Cheap Trick's "Thief Mr. Taxman," a song I don't know, which of course recalls George Harrison's* Taxman, which should be played whenever Steve Forbes enters the room. * Yeah, I know, it's really "the Beatles," but they were all pretty much doing their own songs by then, so it's really George Harrison on the Beatles imprint. posted by Ace at 11:40 PM
CommentsYou gotta fight No? Well, libertarian anthem anyway. Beat on the brat? Posted by: Bud Tugley on December 2, 2004 11:48 PM
I was was a big Twisted Sister fan back in the day. Minor correction to your lyrics: it's "boring and confuscated" (as in confused) not "confiscated" (as in taken away). It's a common mistake. Yes, I know it's hard to believe a rock band knows an obscure word like "confuscated," let alone used it in a song. But I have that straight from Dee. Posted by: TallDave on December 2, 2004 11:56 PM
Just noticed your note. It's actually "Don't think you're destined because, you don't know us, you don't belong." You're not destined if you don't know us. I also wanted to say this is actually a pretty good anthem. Liberals ARE trite, jaded, confuscated and condescending. Posted by: TallDave on December 2, 2004 11:59 PM
Sorry for 3 posts in a row, but this song would be FUCKIN AWESOME to blast at a Protest Warrior rally. Posted by: TallDave on December 3, 2004 12:01 AM
America, fuck yeah! (someone) Posted by: on December 3, 2004 12:06 AM
I've said this before when people talk about there being no great rock anthems which espouse classically "conservative" or "right-wing" political views: the greatest one has been sitting under your noses for years, and familiarity has dulled you to its message. It's "Won't Get Fooled Again," by The Who. Pete Townshend (a supporter of the Iraq war, no less!) has said hundreds of times that even though it was part of his weird conceptual wang-dang-doodle Lifehouse is was written as an explicit repudiation of the mindless sloganeering left-wing "Viva la Revolucion!" attitudes so prominent among the 60's generation. ("Baba O'Riley," which was initially inspired by his jaded view of self-righteous hippies at Woodstock "claiming a cosmic revolution because they jumped the fence, imbibed bad acid, and left without paying the bands" echoes this attitude with the refrain "Teenage wasteland, it's only teenage wasteland - they're all wasted!") And you don't have to read the lyrics metaphorically to get this out of the song, either; the sarcasm of how things have "changed" in the new "revolution" is razor-edged (and lest there be any doubt, those famous last words make the message clear): We'll be fighting in the streets I'll tip my hat to the new constitution The change, it had to come I'll tip my hat to the new constitution I'll move myself and my family aside There's nothing in the streets I'll tip my hat to the new constitution Meet the new boss As far as I'm concerned, it's the greatest openly conservative anthem in rock history - and most people don't even realize it. Posted by: Jeff B. on December 3, 2004 12:07 AM
Wow. Jeff B., you literally rocked my world! Never did check out the lyrics of this tune before. I'd have to agree with you on this being a song based on a rational rejection of the packaged leftist sentiment of the day. And if that's a true statement, then We Don't Get Fooled Again is a conservative anthem. Posted by: Squatch on December 3, 2004 12:13 AM
Well I can't Google any support for my claim on "confuscated." I think I read it in an interview back in the 80s. IIRC Dee thought it was funny because if your life was confiscated, you'd be dead, and people were citing that lyric (along with the video) as proof his music incited delinquency and violence, but he actually just meant their lives were boring and confused and kids wanted something exciting and easily understood like rock music ("I wann rock!" the kid at the beginning says). This was before gangsta rap made 80s heavy metal seem innocent by comparison. Posted by: TallDave on December 3, 2004 12:17 AM
The Ramones, Dude. They should be the official Ace O'Spades HQ band! Posted by: Iblis on December 3, 2004 12:22 AM
The Imperial March, by John Williams. Alas, no lyrics, but it just *fits.* Especially Cheney. Cheers, Posted by: Dave at Garfield Ridge on December 3, 2004 12:34 AM
There's a Steppenwolf song on teaching your children to have manners and respect their elders... Or at least I think it's Steppenwolf... off to the record collection... back later... Posted by: Adrianne Truett on December 3, 2004 12:45 AM
For the record, Lord Cheney is the only Dark Lord of the Sith that didn't have to change his name for a "sith" name like Maul or Vader. Darth Cheney is bad-ass enough. Posted by: Iblis on December 3, 2004 12:58 AM
Dude, Pop Culture is Filth. But...you might try Simon Chardiet's "Left Wing Fascist". You can listen to a sample at Amazon or buy the song from WalMart. I know Chardiet as a great surf guitarist but the snippets of this song I've heard make me think it's what you're looking for. (I prefer country my own self.) Posted by: see-dubya on December 3, 2004 01:02 AM
Ace-- I find your lack of faith disturbing. Would a *Metallica* cover of the Imperial March rock? http://www.dmeb.net/dveb/sounds/metallic.mp3 Or how about a version by No Doubt? http://www.dmeb.net/dveb/sounds/no_doubt.mp3 Cheers, Posted by: Dave at Garfield Ridge on December 3, 2004 01:27 AM
Okay, that one version of the Imperial March isn't by Metallica, but by a Metallica cover band. Still, good college try. The No Doubt version is legit, however; they played it live in 1997. http://www.nodoubt.com/band/ Cheers, Posted by: Dave at Garfield Ridge on December 3, 2004 01:32 AM
Well, there's always the work of Rush, at least lyrically speaking. The problem is, any sort of tendency of the songs to actually, like, y'know, ROCK, is completely undermined by the voice of Geddy Lee. "The t-rr-OUble wiyith the mAYee-puls ...." (shudder) I'd almost rather listen to Bob Fuckin' Dylan. No, the best conservative anthem I can think of that actually, like, y'know, ROCKS, is probably "Taxman Mr. Thief" by Cheap Trick: You work hard, you make money
{For some reason, when I preview this post, none of my paragraph breaks are showing up. I hope it doesn't look like this when I hit Post ....} Posted by: on December 3, 2004 01:52 AM
{Somehow, I lost my name and info when I previewed that last post before posting ... and sorry about the misspellings; I pasted it in from a lyrics page and didn't give it much of an edit.} Posted by: Alex on December 3, 2004 01:56 AM
Arnold used TS in his campaign against Davis. I think Dee Snyder even came to a couple rallies to sing it. Posted by: Kevin on December 3, 2004 02:08 AM
Well I don't know how conservative it is, but my own personal anthem has always been "Milk" by S.O.D. Milk I woke up, can't wait to eat I want some milk, my coffee grows cold I wish I had some god damn milk I can't go out to the store Posted by: Bilious Old Turd on December 3, 2004 02:10 AM
"Garfield Ridge likes to argue"??? No I don't. Cheers, Posted by: Dave at Garfield Ridge on December 3, 2004 02:17 AM
An anthem that has been running through my head everytime I've seen John Kerry since the election goes something like: na na nana na na nana na I think it's kinda catchy and works well for liberals especially after an election Posted by: otalps on December 3, 2004 02:17 AM
Yeh, "Taxman Mr. Thief" is a nod to George H's work, of course -- which is a great song in its own right, and should go on the list as well, even if as a general rule, he and the rest of the Beatles were a bunch of hippie wankahs. As Stereolabrat put it in a post she once wrote about who can ROCK, "Fuck those pansies. Please with their world peace and their little glasses." http://www.livejournal.com/users/stereolabrat/2003/11/08/ Posted by: Alex on December 3, 2004 02:34 AM
My personal anti-islamofascist theme is Slayer's "Payback". I wouldn't exactly call it a conservative anthem, but it's lyrics sum up what most right-wingers feel towards Osama and pals. Tom Araya introduced it at a show in Sweden by saying "This song is basically how America feels...and America's new motto... payback's a bitch, motherfucker!" Full lyrics (not for the easily offended): http://www.slayersaves.com/lyricsgodhatesusall.htm#13 Posted by: napalm on December 3, 2004 04:27 AM
Pink Floyd's Another Brick in the Wall should keep the NEA and the PC publik skool establishment humming Posted by: on December 3, 2004 05:03 AM
The Village Green Preservation Society by the Kinks. Posted by: aaron on December 3, 2004 07:52 AM
You guys act like Merle Haggard never existed. "The Fighting Side of Me"
I read about some squirrely guy, Yeah, walkin' on the fightin' side of me. Yeah, walkin' on the fightin' side of me. Posted by: Mike on December 3, 2004 09:12 AM
You're writing a screenplay? Howsabout more on this? Posted by: jamie r. on December 3, 2004 09:17 AM
As long as reaching back to the Fab Four is allowed, how about Revolution? You tell me that it's evolution, we-el, Regards Posted by: Ric Locke on December 3, 2004 09:34 AM
Speakin' of Merle Haggard, there's always Okie From Muskogee. Posted by: Tongueboy on December 3, 2004 09:52 AM
While it would be like the flap over 'Pink Houses', as this band is very liberal, Ministry's 'Thieves' might be good: Thieves, thieves and liars, murderers Hey thanks for nothing! Thieves! liar! You’re like a great big fucking gun, Breathe, forfeit erection! Thieves! liar! You’re like a great big hit of acid, Posted by: Geoff on December 3, 2004 09:58 AM
back to the cold war and further ... IRON MAIDEN You'll take my life but I'll take yours too The bugle sounds and the charge begins The horse he sweats with fear we break to run We hurdle bodies that lay on the ground We get so close near enough to fight And as I lay there gazing at the sky Posted by: Greg on December 3, 2004 10:48 AM
I personally like Crush-Em by Megadeth... Has a really great Republican vibe to it "Heads I win, Tails you lose; Posted by: Angus on December 3, 2004 10:57 AM
Here's a conservative song for ya. It reaffirms the right of a nation to defend itself from terrorists, celebrate's Israel's bombing of the Iraqi nuclear facility, stands up for religion and capitalism, and sneers at the elitist European world view which has always been "unsettled" with the promise of Israel as an independent state. Plus its written by Bob Dylan (who actually has written several songs fot this category, but I'm late for work already so I'll post them later). "Neighborhood Bully" Well, the neighborhood bully, he's just one man, The neighborhood bully just lives to survive, The neighborhood bully been driven out of every land, Well, he knocked out a lynch mob, he was criticized, Well, the chances are against it and the odds are slim He got no allies to really speak of. Well, he's surrounded by pacifists who all want peace, Every empire that's enslaved him is gone, Now his holiest books have been trampled upon, What's anybody indebted to him for? What has he done to wear so many scars? *Note to Ace: As I think about this I think that the problem isn't that there arent conservative protest songs. There are in fact large numbers of them. The problem is that, for as long as I can remember, CONSERVATIVES DON'T PROTEST! (With the possible exception of the pro-lifers). One of your problems here is that the Left, which will take to the streets to bitch about , well, just about anything, co-opt the songs that are out there. Hence any number of songs that might, on their face, seem to support conservative positions get identified as stressing lefty themes because of this. This only get's reinforced by the media's constant painting of the "vietnam war protesters" as great national heroes (are you listenting Mr. Kerry) and attributing whatever cool 60's song happened to come out within five years of the protest as an "anthem" for the time (Remember that NBC miniseries "The Sixties" where the most noble thing about the 60's was that some dude went from being a clean cut kid to a hippy war protester all while a soundtrack of great songs chronicled his journey over time?). Are their lefty songs on their own accord? Sure. But are their songs that but for their co-opting could be seen as conservative as well? Absolutely. This entry is too long already. I'll keep the conversation going in the comments if anyone wants me to elucidate on the point a little more. Otherwise I'll just go back to keeping my moronic thoughts to myself. :) Posted by: senator philabuster on December 3, 2004 11:29 AM
Someone has already posted lyrics by the Stormtroopers Of Death, but they left out the funniest ones. [CHORUS] You don't know what I want And this one to, well, the Middle East: Posted by: madne0 on December 3, 2004 11:39 AM
And since it's topical...in light of the blue state/red state "division" within the country, I'd nominate "Sweet Home Alabama" as a conservative protest song because: 1) It tells Neil Young to kiss off; While we are discussing Skynyrd, I'd also nominate "Gimme Back My Bullets". Ace: Can I be the in house classic rock pundit for this site? :) Posted by: senator philabuster on December 3, 2004 12:02 PM
Cool note on the Imperial March theme song: Back when I was a swimmer in college there was this kid from Middlebury who never lost a friggin event (including nationals) in 4 friggin years. He was a butterfly/IM specialist - two gnarly events. In any case, this dude was only like 5'4" or something, and wasn't even that big - but whenever he'd get up on the blocks at some big event, everyone else'd be all jumpin around loosening up - he'd just sit there all stoic with his hands at his hips, staring down the pool into space. His team (all 50 of them) would all sit at the far end of the pool and chant that (the imperial march). So. Effing. Intimidating. He would then proceed to romp the crap out of all comers. Mike McCollum the kids name was and he's my friggin hero. Damn man, that song still gives me the willies. Posted by: fat kid on December 3, 2004 12:07 PM
Oh, and FWIW this was all New England Division III swimming, so nothing spectacular, but the *ONLY* kid who ever even came close to giving this kid a run for his money was a Canadian Olympic swimmer. Posted by: fat kid on December 3, 2004 12:10 PM
Hank, Jr. - Country Boy Kin Survive - We say grace and we say m'am, if you ain't into that we don't give a damn Beatles - Revolution - You want a revolution? Go somewhere else. Posted by: jb on December 3, 2004 12:30 PM
Dammit, I'm from Alabama, and I was gonna say Sweet Home Alabama. I hope Neil Young will remember: Southern man don't need him around, anyhow. Posted by: jb on December 3, 2004 12:32 PM
Didn't realize Hank Jr did it "country Boy," but didn't Marshall Tucker do it first? Trying to remember... And I won't even mention "Ballad of the Green Berets." Oops. Just did. Mojo Nixon had a few songs that could be used. Posted by: Chrees on December 3, 2004 01:06 PM
Haggard - Rainbow Stew U.S. Chaos - great punk rock band from the 80s. I believe they have a website now with free downloads too. Virtually any and every one of their songs, I kid you not. Posted by: slickdpdx on December 3, 2004 02:24 PM
Another great TS neocon theme song: "Destroyer" "And when he strikes, I listened to this song approximately 1 million times when I was 14. Posted by: TallDave on December 3, 2004 03:37 PM
"You Can't Be Too Strong" by Graham Parker. Great pro-life song, without being preachy. Senator PhilABuster: Ace: Can I be the in house classic rock pundit for this site? :) No fucking way, punk. At the very least, you're gonna face an overwhelmingly stern Arlen Specter-like primary challenge from me and my 3000+ CD collection. Posted by: Jeff B. on December 3, 2004 07:07 PM
Jeff B. Only 3,000? What's the matter? Mommy cut off your allowance???? I'll put my CD collection up against yours anyday, punk. After all, how many people know that the Walrus was neither John nor Paul but actually Oliver Willis? Posted by: senator philabuster on December 3, 2004 09:52 PM
Wow, what a pathetic, paltry selection. Too bad, because I've often wondered myself if there were more patriotic or conservative rock songs. Like Ace, I've been drifting more toward country (which I previously hated), probably for the same reason he has, because there is patriotism and other sentiments more in line with my way of thinking. Having said that, though, I can't believe the most obvious song has been mentioned by NOBODY, even after someone mentioned the band, which should have jarred some memories. That would of course be "Don't Tread on Me" by Metallica. Too bad the band now says it is the most embarrassing song they've ever recorded (I guess they don't need any more of my money anyway). Luckily for us, they can't take it back. Posted by: on December 4, 2004 12:11 AM
Just in case some of you youngsters aren't familiar with the song, here are the fantastic lyrics: ----- Don't Tread On Me Liberty or death, Don't tread on me So be it Don't tread on me Love it or leave it, Don't tread on me So be it Don't tread on me So be it Liberty or death, what we so proudly hail So be it Don't tread on me ----- As an added bonus, when I listen to this song I often think back and laugh and how horrified many of Metallica's fans were at the time. I remember a newsgroup discussion in which one guy had this deluded take on the song based on an in-denial version in his brain. He claimed the lyrics were things like, "Liberty or death, what we once so proudly hailed", that it was talking about how America HAD once been great but no longer was. Someone had to point out to him that such an interpretation was only possibly with his special imaginary version of the lyrics, which were in serious conflict with the version printed in the CD booklet and the version everyone clearly heard in the song. Oh well, it made him feel better for a while. Rolling Stone magazine also took offense in their review of the album, much of which focused on this single song and their rant about how maybe Metallica should sign up to fight in the Gulf War before having the audacity to sing a song like this. Ah, hippies. My fond memories of the trauma this song caused them just adds to my enjoyment of it. Posted by: on December 4, 2004 12:22 AM
Didn't James talk about going hunting Bears in fucking SIBERIA?!? I'm going to go out on a limb here, and say he's a conservative. Pity Metallica suck cock now. Silent Scream Shattered, another child Silent Scream Life preordained Nightmare, the persecution That's right, a anti-abortion song by Slayer. Posted by: madne0 on December 4, 2004 11:27 AM
Good Point. Anyways, this was where i met her. You can join for free as well www.redtricircle.com Posted by: click here on March 12, 2005 03:54 AM
My rock anthem is on www.rockpatrol.comIt`s a song that salutes our great men and women in the military, and says thank you for taking out Uday, Qusay and Saddam Hussein.They`re no longer on the run!!!! Posted by: jonnymike on April 27, 2005 09:53 AM
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RI Red's Blog! Behind The Black CutJibNewsletter The Pipeline Second City Cop Talk Of The Town with Steve Noxon Belmont Club Chicago Boyz Cold Fury Da Goddess Daily Pundit Dawn Eden Day by Day (Cartoon) EduWonk Enter Stage Right The Epoch Times Grim's Hall Victor Davis Hanson Hugh Hewitt IMAO Instapundit JihadWatch Kausfiles Lileks/The Bleat Memeorandum (Metablog) Outside the Beltway Patterico's Pontifications The People's Cube Powerline RedState Reliapundit Viking Pundit WizBang Some Humorous Asides
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Thanksgivingmanship: How to Deal With Your Spoiled Stupid Leftist Adultbrat Relatives Who Have Spent Three Months Reading Slate and Vox Learning How to Deal With You You're Fired! Donald Trump Grills the 2004 Democrat Candidates and Operatives on Their Election Loss Bizarrely I had a perfect Donald Trump voice going in 2004 and then literally never used it again, even when he was running for president. A Eulogy In Advance for Former Lincoln Project Associate and Noted Twitter Pestilence Tom Nichols Special Guest Blogger Rich "Psycho" Giamboni: If You Touch My Sandwich One More Time, I Will Fvcking Kill You Special Guest Blogger Rich "Psycho" Giamboni: I Must Eat Jim Acosta Special Guest Blogger Tom Friedman: We Need to Talk About What My Egyptian Cab Driver Told Me About Globalization Shortly Before He Began to Murder Me Special Guest Blogger Bernard Henri-Levy: I rise in defense of my very good friend Dominique Strauss-Kahn Note: Later events actually proved Dominique Strauss-Kahn completely innocent. The piece is still funny though -- if you pretend, for five minutes, that he was guilty. The Ace of Spades HQ Sex-for-Money Skankathon A D&D Guide to the Democratic Candidates Michael Moore Goes on Lunchtime Manhattan Death-Spree Artificial Insouciance: Maureen Dowd's Word Processor Revolts Against Her Numbing Imbecility The Dowd-O-Matic! The Donkey ("The Raven" parody) Archives
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