Why no TV show?

A buddy of mine spoke to Alan Tudyk after a production of "Spamalot". Tudyk claimed Joss had been bitten by the movie bug and didn't want to do TV anymore.

For whatever that's worth.

Maybe they could just call it Law & Order: Illegal Transport Unit and guarantee themselves decent numbers.

Heh.

The amount of truth in that statement is staggering.

Well the movie did a little better than break even at the theater, so the DVD sales are pure profit basically.

The problem with a new series (As much as I would like it too) is that the TV rights are still tied up in Fox, which doesn't seem to want to admit their mistake.

Add to the mix that Joss Whedon has said quite a few times that he would never work with Fox again because of their treatment of the Firefly series.

So, it went from CSI, the 'verse to lawn*order? Why not use both?

The movie wasn't that good, yo. It helped that the chick-who-could-kick-everyone's-ass was asleep when the plot needed it and awake when it was needed. But, is it a requirement for every sci-fi show out there to have a chick-who-could-kick-everyone's-ass? Is this some sort of reflection on the masculinity of the boys who watch this stuff, that they are just waiting for a woman to take charge? Also, the fleet on fleet action lasted for all of 3 seconds and made no sense.

I don't see why Wot (from Knights Tale) had to die.

I would think direct to DVD movies/episodes would be a fairly lucrative idea. Especially considering the base the show has. You almost guarantee a certain number of units sold.

However, I think there may be something to what Anonymous Geek says. Whedon's career ambitions may be limiting the options for the show.

Can they measure TV audiences more accurately since the advent of digital television?

The reason I ask is that the Firefly audience segment seems like it would be one of the least measurable groups of people.

They are also one of the more technologically sophisticated groups -- the kind of people who spend their money on state-of-the-art home theatre setups -- which may help explain the brisk DVD sales.

And is it a requirement that the chick who can kick everyone's ass weighs about 90 pounds?

Harvard,

Did you just fess up that you actually saw Knight's Tale?

'Cause that's just embarassing.

The larger question is:
What in the heck has happened to SF in general?
the books don't sell like they used to, the magazines are all in trouble, and the TV shows and movies either suck and or do poorly.
And Star Wars does not count.

Let's put it this way:

Serenity/Firefly failed and will continue to fail for the same reason why Michael Moore suceeds and continues to suceed.

Americans enjoy leftist films. Deal with it.

I don't know about Sci-Fi in general, but Star Wars II sucked. Could be the genre has been overexposed and people are tired of it.

Americans enjoy leftist films. Deal with it.

Uh huh. That's why box office receipts have been skyrocketing the last few years.

We just can't get enough of that sweet, sweet lefty movie-making.

Ass-kicking females are a reflection of incipient faggery.

Science-fiction stopped being interesting with the introduction of quantum physics that allowed gay-ass deus ex machina things like "warp drive".

Firefly is well thought of because it didn't get a chance to start sucking. Witness "Buffy" and "Angel".

The movie tied up the lingering threads from the series, more or less. Anything that continues the story on from here will suck ass, because now they'll overthink it.

The SF movies of late have been substandard, IMO. They're nothing but eye candy anymore. Modern SF books are so wrapped up in SF political correctness I never read them anymore (I prefer the classic stuff).

Modern SF novel fall into one of two categories: 1) the characters uphold the author's political and social views and all ends well, or (more commonly), 2) the characters reject the author's political and social views and everyone dies horribly. Those political and social views are, of course, far enough to the left to make Bill Clinton look like Rush Limbaugh.

Ha, good one, anonymous, if you believe leftwing films "flourish," its only because they are the ones who receive a lion's share of the MSM's free publicity. How many times does a Clooney or Michael Moore film or a Hillary Book get free airtime and discussions. When was the last time Limbaugh was on the tonight show? Its the same answer to ecurligiasticiac's question based on his belief that only lefties are good at art. Its 'cause the only folks who get promoted are the lefties (yay Margaret Cho! Oh Jeanine Garofolo is so bold.). Anyway, I am sure you were joking, not trying to threadjack, so haha.

As for sci fi, it seems like the plots are losing ground to the special effects. Its like the 90 pound girl who can kill everyone, ok we get it, there is no limit to what you can present to the audience visually. However, how about a good idea? If the plot is just a timing device for action sequences, then who is gonna remember it. Or care about the film.

It was the same problem with HPGoF, GoF was the best book in the series, but the director sucked the soul out of it, so that he could fit in a few flashy scenes of Harry being chased by a dragon. Or whatever it was he tried to do with the film.

Ass-kicking females are a reflection of incipient faggery.

I like this rho guy.

I totally agree. Its either a desire to have someone take charge in your life (maybe that cute girl who never talked to you) or something deeper about the person's masculinity.

But maybe its just me, the 90lb girl who can kill everyone annoys me to no end.

Is Firefly/Serenity considered conservative?

My writing Oscar votes goes to the first person to deal with the proverbial "90 pound girl who can kill everyone" the way Indy Jones dealt with the scimitar-wielding assassin in ROTLA.

My writing Oscar votes goes

Well, that sounded retarded, but you know what I mean...

And that scene was ad-libbed.

That other dude was joking about serenity being a conservative film.

Generally I agree that it is annoying that every movie seems to have to have a woman who can kick ass as well as any man in the movie. In Serenity though I accepted it as it served a purpose to the plot in that her badassness was to be totally unexpected because its was a 90lb girl. The ultimate covert weapon. This contrasts to the other recent movies in which the girl is a badass just because.

I still can't believe they killed Steve the Pirate at the end of Serenity. I don't think they could ever get back to a series without him.

As far as Sci-Fi sucking lately - has anyone seen the first season and a half of the new version of Battlestar Galactica? It's pretty solid and I would recommend it to any SciFi fan.

I thought Firefly had more of a Briscoe County, Jr. feel to it than a sci-fi feel.

Though, upon reflection, Briscoe County, Jr had that stupid orb thing in it so maybe that qualifies BCJ as a sci-fi series. Though, I don't see how a show in which the horse has a co-starring role can possibly be 'sci-fi'.

But I digress ....

I'd subscribe to new Firefly episodes because it's got three other hot chicks in addition to the 90lb death-slinger. The problem is that a new season of Firefly would have the same issues that the last year of Briscoe County, Jr. had - eventually you'd have to resolve the story lines and therein lies the suck.

and Lord Bowler is one of the great under-appreciated characters in television.

.

Firstly, Joss didn't have creative control over the movie, which is why it ended up eerily similar to RA: Apocalypse in many respects. As for the political orientation, more libertarian than anything else. To the ass-kicking girl angle, the potential was easily there from the series and was probably where Joss was eventually headed anyway given her antics with the gun in "War Stories". Serenity was #1 on amazon until Wedding Crashers popped up, and will probably last in the top ten much much longer than wedding Crashers itself will.

"Survivor - The Hundred Moons"

I Well, Gina Torres-Fishburn is the ass kicking chick actually, and there is a decent plot point for it.

Summer Glau's, "River Tam" isn't exactly ass kicking, she is more like a petite ninja.

and I don't care if it is a common thing. Summer's ballet background made her an AWESOME petite ninja. Her fight scenes weren't like all of the other fight scenese where she is going through the kata for 45 seconds before throwing a punch, but rather a smooth and elegant efficiency that made it look absolutely stunning.

As for Sci-Fi dying out, the problem is too many attempts at authors trying to be scientists. Joss did a good job at going "we need fuel" just fuel, not some sort of multi-syllabic nonsense. Whenever the ship breaks down, it's a "coupler" a "panel" there are few things on the planet made up of more than 20 parts that don't have couplers of some sorts or panels of some kind.

Amazing co-incidence! Just finished downloading, burning and watching all 13 episodes (plus pilot) of Firefly last night. Also rented the movie and saw it over Xmas break.

Love the series, but have some questions:

How come there was gravity inside Serenity?

What was the Shepherd's secret past?

Why did they always use "Gorram" for a swear word? It sounded lame.

P.S. The best way to make more shows is to go the "Matrix" sequel route- film two movies' worth at once and then release them about six or nine months apart. Saves a shitload of money on filming costs.

If there are no more sequals or Tv segments, then the world will be a poorer place.

At least I was able to get my wife (no scifi fan, she), get interested in the show after I gave a good recount of the movie. Got her to watch the reruns of "Firefly" on SciFi Channel, she got hooked and she sat thru the whole series on DVD then movie DVD and loved it all.

CT said : Those political and social views [of modern SF writers] are, of course, far enough to the left to make Bill Clinton look like Rush Limbaugh.
Err, you haven't been reading much of the stuff put out by Baen books recently, have you? "Bastion of raging leftism" isn't exactly the description I'd use (ok, aside from the one self-described Trotskyist).

Ok, that last post I did was just too geh.

I went to IMDB.com and found out that Shepherd was most likely a high-ranking Alliance military officer who was disgusted at the slaughter of surrendering Browncoats at the battle of Serenity Valley.

I also found out Nathan was in Saving Private Ryan.

Chris C,

Yeah, it's not all left wing, that's for sure. John Ringo is a good example, as is Michael Z. Williamson (I wanna live in the Freehold). But most of it is pretty left wing, even from Baen. Mercedes Lackey is hugely liberal, and Eric Flint is an admitted communist. Supposedly David Weber has right wing leanings as well, but I think that's mostly conjecture (I didn't get that impression reading On Basilisk Station, though I admit I haven't read the rest in the series). Right wing SF writers are the exception, not the rule (though you will find most of them publishing at Baen).

Serenity=left wing?
I don't think so. The whole reason the Reavers exist is because some imperial nanny-statist bunch tried to create a world where there was no agression, meaning no violence. It backfires horribly, and not just for the 10 percent that turn Reaver. Everyone else becomes uber-complacent, with no passions or drives at all.

Re: killing Steve the Pirate.

Whedon had a habit of killing off major characters in his TV series. I think it added a lot to the tension of the shows. In nearly every regular show, you always knew Crockett and Tubs would escape serious harm, but in Whedon's world everyone is expendable. In fact, I got my wife to watch Serenity on DVD, and she assumed that everyone in the Reaver standoff would die, mainly, I think, because a key character had just been killed.

CT,

Oh, I don't think Baen is conservative as a whole. At most, I think it settles at a moderate-ish libertarian overall. Mostly, I was objecting to the "all modern SF is touchy-feely/PC leftish" thing.

Oh yeah, Americans enjoy left wing films:

Serenity: $25 million domestic gross
Munich: $27 million
Good Night and Good Luck: $24 million

Granted, some are more successful:
Syriana: $42 million
Jarhead: $62 million
which combined is less than
The Pacifier: $113 million (Though, in all fairness The Pacifier has a Marxist subtext.)

Meanwhile, the #3 top grossing movie of 2005 was based on an allegory of the Bible.

We bought the Firefly series after seeing Serenity and we're trying to stretch it out (tv in Australia isn't the best) so I can't comment on all of it yet, but we're enjoying it. As to the 90 lb chick thing; in fiction I prefer the alpha male character, but as a short (though no longer 90lb) female I do get a chuckle out of those tiny women who can kick ass. We can dream, can't we?

And The Pacifier and Good Night and Good Luck are the only movies I listed that grossed more than they cost.

"But maybe its just me, the 90lb girl who can kill everyone annoys me to no end."

Damn right. I've mentioned this before, about how common it is in movies to have delicate little things like Keira Knightly or Jessica Alba braining guys the size of armored cars. Let's cut the crap, OK. Keira Knightly, little British hottie that she may be, couldn't fight her way out of a fog patch, and she's about as credible as a bad ass as John Goodman is as an Olympic swimmer.

What in the heck has happened to SF in general?
the books don't sell like they used to, the magazines are all in trouble, and the TV shows and movies either suck and or do poorly.
And Star Wars does not count.

It's a reflection of what has happened to entertainment in general. Audiences don't have the staying power to THINK through plotlines anymore, and the quick and easy fix is applied instead of making the reader/watcher stick through to the real end -- an end that takes up more time but is far more satisfying when reached.

As far as movies go, there hasn't been a decent science fiction movie made since T2 -- except for Serenity, which is a VERY conservative film, people; there was a specific reason why River was kick-tail due to her mental and physical alteration, not because she was butch or something, sheesh. The role could have just as easily been played by a wimpy male character who'd been experimented upon by the government. I don't like kick-tail chicks, either -- "King Arthur" had an abominable Guinivere, for example -- but River wasn't just some garden variety chick off the street who happened to be tough.

Anyway, what falls under the category of Science Fiction today generally isn't SF or it's bad science fiction, and you can't turn out bad SF and expect people to be interested in it.

And I tried -- again -- to watch an episode of BSG, and I was so bored I nearly gouged my eyes out. There's not a single character in that show I give a turd about. Sorry.

But maybe its just me, the 90lb girl who can kill everyone annoys me to no end.

Not me. I watch a ton of asian martial arts films, and I never get tired of it as long as it's done well. If you're having trouble with your suspension of disbelief, you haven't had enough beer.

As for lefty films v so-called conservative films, its not a point worth arguing. The person who posted that point was most likely not being serious. Every knows Hollywood has had a crappy year, even with tons of free publicity for dreck like "goodnight" and "jarhead." If you don't count Potter or Narnia, the numbers are much lower.

As for Serenity, I guess the 90# chicky's ass-kicking nature was within the plot parameters 'cause the evil gov't. made her that way, but she seemed to only be that way when it didn't matter. Her being asleep half the film made me think she was just more eye candy.

I tend to agree with bbeck's point if its boiled down to "just 'cause there are space ships, doesn't make it sci fi."

If you watch the special features of Serenity, there is an interview with Whedon where he talks about one of the ideas firefly/serenity is based on, being how the alliance is the powerful progressive superpower that is pushing itself onto the soil of people and cultures who feel they don't belong, and are trying to push ideas on them that they don't want or that don't fit in their culture.

As for Serenity, I guess the 90# chicky's ass-kicking nature was within the plot parameters 'cause the evil gov't. made her that way, but she seemed to only be that way when it didn't matter. Her being asleep half the film made me think she was just more eye candy.

Wash even made a joke about how a 90 lb girl knocked out Jayne, so the characters all knew how absurd and unlikely it was. That was kind of the point; she was abnormal.

If you watch the special features of Serenity, there is an interview with Whedon where he talks about one of the ideas firefly/serenity is based on, being how the alliance is the powerful progressive superpower that is pushing itself onto the soil of people and cultures who feel they don't belong, and are trying to push ideas on them that they don't want or that don't fit in their culture.

...which is precisely what makes it a conservative film. Conservatism rejects the notion that the federal government has the right to regulate the people.

David Weber of Baen is an odd fusion of libertarian and monarchist, with a dash of Red Tory. Don't agree with him across the board, but he's more good than bad.

Conservative SF writers...

Ray Bradbury
Robert Heinlein
Larry Niven
Jerry Pournelle
David Weber
John Ringo
Orson Scott Card

...to name a few. In other words, most of the really good ones are conservative/libertarian. Liberals tend to write whiney SF.

In theory that is a correct point bbeck, but you can see my point, and what Whedon was saying -- America is the big bully superpower that is terrorizing nations that want to be left alone -- basically the Hollywood talking points.

In theory that is a correct point bbeck, but you can see my point, and what Whedon was saying -- America is the big bully superpower that is terrorizing nations that want to be left alone -- basically the Hollywood talking points.

That's only if you see Whedon as specifcally drawing that parallel...and where does he do that? I didn't hear him talking about that in the Extras but I may have missed it. It can just as easily be interpreted as "Big government interferes with individuality," which, once again, is a conservative POV. Also, religion is placed in a positive light with Shepherd Book's character, who's wise and steadfast in his beliefs. That isn't Hollywood by any stretch of the imagination, nor is "solving problems by fighting back instead of talking things over," which the Serenity crew does all...the...time.

On a related subject: Adam Baldwin/Jayne is VERY conservative in real life. That doesn't mean the rest of the cast is, but I thought that was interesting.

Hello,

Originally Posted by Harvard Ethics Committee, etc.

But, is it a requirement for every sci-fi show out there to have a chick-who-could-kick-everyone's-ass?

From Joss Whedon's commentary track on the Serenity DVD: "It has been pointed out to me that, uh, I have a problem, uh, making fiction that doesn't have super-powered adolescent girls in it; I don't care..."

Originally Posted by rho:

Firefly is well thought of because it didn't get a chance to start sucking.

Never seen any episodes of Firefly myself, but couldn't this really be said of anything that didn't suck? "Yeah, Blade Runner was solid sci-fi noir, but another couple hours to it, or a sequel or two, and it would really have blown dog..."

Originally Posted by joeindc44:

But maybe its just me, the 90lb girl who can kill everyone annoys me to no end.

The only reason it annoys me to any extent is that it's becoming cliched, but it's long been a Whedon signature cliche, so I'm willing to give him a pass on it. As far as realism goes, it really is pretty easy to physically hurt people, even for a 90-pound girl. And River is psychic; I've little doubt she's meant to be dodging and parrying axes and beer bottles the way Jedi dodge and parry blaster bolts - by forseeing them in advance.

Originally Posted by Jordan:

As for the political orientation, more libertarian than anything else.

Firefly was admittedly partly inspired by historical novel The Killer Angels, which would make its political situation an analog of that on the post-Civil War American frontier - libertarian indeed, by modern standards.

Originally Posted by Dogstar:

How come there was gravity inside Serenity?

I suspect the TV show effects budget wouldn't allow for constant simulation of zero-G, so they apparently sort of hand-waved this, despite an effort to keep things realistic in other ways (including no FTL travel - all worlds in one huge system, as explained in the movie intro, to which original settlers supposedly arrived on hibernation or generation ships.)

Originally Posted by Dogstar:

Why did they always use "Gorram" for a swear word? It sounded lame.

"Gorram", "Shiny", Chinese swearing, and so forth serve a dual function. First, they're pretty obviously a nod to future slang of the sort that was epitomized in A Clockwork Orange. And secondly, they're a way to allow characters to swear when they logically would while not using words that would have kept them off broadcast TV.

Originally Posted by bbeck:

Conservative SF writers...

[snip list]

You could about put Michael Crichton in there nowadays; after State of Fear, the liberals sure wouldn't have him. David Drake seems a likely candidate for the list as well. I've heard Card was semi-conservative at best, really more a Joe-Lieberman-on-a-good-day type, though definitely no moonbat.

---

As I've said, I've not seen any episodes of Firefly, though I'll probably look into it when I get a chance, since I liked Serenity a lot. From the sound of it, it deserves comparison in a lot of ways to another, much older sci-fi cult series, The Prisoner. Both series had similar philosophical speculations, short runs, and measures of success with critics and small but devoted fan bases; the major difference seems to be that The Prisoner's short run was intentional - it was really the first TV mini-series - while Firefly's most definitely wasn't.

The problem with a new Firefly/Serenity sequel is they wrapped up everything that made the show worth watching. The plucky comic relief died after doing something heroic. One of the "will they or won't they" couples did, and the other couple are strongly leaning that way. The mystery that pulled the plot has been solved. Solving the mystery also removes the pursuit that was providing a push to the plot. The minor mystery of who Book had been was settled with a wink, a nod, and a "you're not cleared for that" followed by killing him off. Without all that, we're just left with "Gunfight @ Hanger Bay October-Kilo".

Re: The Chinese Cursing, I don't think it's directly described in the series, but the setting is effectively a variation on Niven's CoDo with the PRC in place of the USSR. On the good side, they can say the Saxon equivelent of "Divine punishment, excrement, fornicate!" without the censors stepping in. On the down side, the actors are stumbling over hard to pronounce words in a tonal language & you can hear them having to focus on what they're saying. This sounds just wrong, as cussing is what you do when you loose focus.

As for the science, meh. I can swallow FTL travel easier than I can a single system dozens of potentially inhabitable worlds or terraforming taking only decades.

Ray Bradbury a conservative? Please. There is a wide gulf between being an old fogey and a conservative who can offer rational reasons for his beliefs. Bradbury is perfectly fine with seizing and banning private property where it suits him, especially when it comes to personal transportation. When he starts talking about how he'd like to eliminate automobiles from Los Angeles he sounds remarkably like Red Ken Livingstone of London. He conveniently forgets how much of his life has depending on getting rides from people who had their own cars so he could get to places to far from the nearest bus stop, which isn't very far during his frequent bouts of drunkeness.

The CoDominium is not Larry Niven's creation. It's Jerry Pournelle's and first came about to let him restage some of his experiences in the Korean War. Niven collaborated on the Motie novels and wrote couple stories set in the CoDo or Second Empire era but it isn't territory where he' comfortable since it revolves so much on military and political issues. For much the same reason the Man-Kzin Wars have beeen a by invitation universe for other writers.

There are plenty of conservative SF writers out there but not everyone feels the need to wear their heart on their sleeve. Also, many of them appreciate that radically different approaches to life enabled by new technology can create situations in which the old rules simply cannot be applied without some rethinking. This has already happened in real life. A middle-aged National Review reader in the 1950s would likely be pretty shocked by some of the stuff discussed on 'The Corner' nowadays if they had no experience of the decades in between.

A lot of SF guys tout themselves as libertarians but know it's incompatible with real life unless they stack the deck. (Similarly, Eric Flint, Baen's avowed Trotskyite, in a recent novel resorted to creating alien who were biologically inclined to suit Flint's brand of communism.) All too often their stories require massive highly organized militaries that would be improbable at best in a real libertarian world. The copout in some case is to stack the deck of the far future or alien civilization so as to be incompatible with anyone having a large spacegoing military regardless of their political structure.

I don't blame the director for the way the most recent Harry Potter movie turned out. Most of it was quite good except for some personal nitpicks like making thehalf-giant headmistress of the French school so gruesome and de-emphasizing the non-human glamour of her students. The big problem was that this book would have required a four hour movie without cutting out big chunks. The Dursley's and Dobby were completely absent. The former was a big loss in my eyes since it create inconsistency with the arc of the other movies, not to mention a major plot point in the following book.

If Joss wanted to do it he could likely get the green light for another Firefly movie or mini-series. Serenity has made a nice return on investment. I'd be very surprised if they were counting on theatrical box office alone to make it profitable. The bigger question for them was how many of the theater attendees would also buy the DVD.

Another way to think of it is as a direct to video production with a theatrical run to reduce costs. As a result of coming close to breaking even on a global theatrical scale the DVD release enjoys a far higher quality than most such productions.

Lastly, if you don't like butt-kicking women, don't go to a Joss Whedon flick or watch his TV shows. The guy is all about butt-kicking women.
http://imdb.com/name/nm0923736/