Ace: That big empty grey bar looks cool, but shouldn't there be words there?

The leftwing have backed themselves in a corner. The only way out for them is for us to lose in Iraq. If everything goes pretty well and they seem happy and a Democracy seems to be growing, then all their moaning about this useless war will seem useless in itself.

Sad, isn't it? When America losing or screwing up is what makes the left happy?

I just went to CNN to see the election coverage and the only mention of it is the little box pimpin' Mini Cooper's show and a link to a Time article entitled "Backroom Deals May Decide Iraq Election". Bastids.

Juan Cole a big crybaby? Die of shock.

What gets my attention now is that the murderers have gone from "terrorists" to "insurgents" to "guerillas", which sounds suspiciously like it's being set up to have a new, Islamic "Che".

Of course the left wants the terrorist murderers to win. They represent oppression, the ultimate leftist dream.

(Oppression doesn't happen in their dream world - only "re-education" by whatever means necessary.)

His statement could easily be applied to Colombia...is that state a failed state?

By his standards, I guess the U.S. was a failed government circa 1862.

Nah, the U.S. didn't fail until the communist tree-hugging frog-kisser Gore couldn't steal the election like his late, great god JFK did in '60.

Ace wrote: "Of course, an Iraq that loves America is the best outcome."

I'm *really* tempted to drag out my Machiavelli and remind everyone that it is better to be feared than it is to be loved. But I think Juan Cole is a twat just the same, so I'll roll with the lovin', baby.

Stay classy, free Iraq!

Cheers,
Dave at Garfield Ridge

Shouldn't this be called the "Corporal Hudson" strategy? Sitting around whining "GAME OVER MAN! GAME OVER!"

This Jaun Cole makes Tom Friedman seem like a real genius.

Friedman, the self-proclaimed Middle East expert, is full of hot air, but at least he makes a little sense.

"Iraq is a failure! Failure failure failyure faily faily fail fail! Boo boo hiss growl! Bush!"

Yes, very convincing argument, that.

Does anybody take this pseudo-academic dumb ass seriously?

Does anybody take this pseudo-academic dumb ass seriously?

He is read, disseminated, and quoted as Gospel by the liberal blogs. Despite the numerous times his doom preaching has been undone by subsequent events.

In the pictures I saw of Iraqis going to vote today, I saw so much joy and pride. Men, women and children. Smiles and tears of joy. Freedom and self-determination after decades of horror.

Thank you to all the men and women in our armed forces who made this possible. Thanks also to the Bush administration who had the backbone to stay the course.

Democracy has always been messy even in free societies and there will be hard times ahead for Iraq and the middle east. But a door has been opened in the middle east that will never be closed.

Long-time reader, first-time poster.

I've got to second Dave at GR (and disagree with Decision '08).

I think the point is not so much an Iraq that loves its' freedom or America. At risk of sounding like John Derbyshire, it's an Iraq that no longer poses us a threat, either by itself or through support of terrorists. In other words, create the anti-Iran. I happen to think that freedom for Iraq is the best way to secure this aspect of our national interest. But let's make sure we get carts and horses in the right order.

"Juan Cole: Even If A Democratically Elected Iraq Government Requests Us To Withdraw, That's Still a Bad Thing"

Of course its a bad thing, Ace.

George Bush made it happen.

Is he actually suggesting that we should remain in Iraq against its legitimate government's wishes?

No, he didn't. I don't see how you could have read it that way.

"those on the left have never really grasped the whole idea of democracy"

Oh, I think they've grasped it. They just don't like it much. Too many rednecks involved in the whole thing. It's unseemly.

D@GR: "it is better to be feared than it is to be loved"

I think Michael Scott of "The Office" (US) said it best: "Would I rather be feared or loved? Um, easy. Both. I want people to be afraid of how much they love me. "

You said: "We will stay until the job is done and/or the legitimate government of Iraq requests us to. If they no longer want us there, that may be imprudent, but it's not our responsibility to force them into prudence."

If we don't think we are there to force them to be prudent, what reason are we using today for being there?

If we don't think we are there to force them to be prudent, what reason are we using today for being there?

Gee, who knows.

Maybe the million people that voted yesterday?

. . . what reason are we using today for being there?

Oh, I don't know - perhaps to establish a legitimate, representative government in the first place?

...and drain the swamp of Islamic terrorism by providing an alternative to fascist dictatorships and theological medieval nutjobs so in the future we don't have to incenrate the entire place in revenge for the nuking of Miami?

Is that a satisfactory answer, Aero?
Why did I even ask that question? There will never be a satisfactory answer for you.

If a democratically legitimate Iraqi government asks us to leave, and we need to stay there to provide a base for a later invasion of Iran, Syria, et al., then shouldn't we stay no matter what they say? We didn't give the West Germans a veto over our being in Germany after they started having elections.

Granted, Germany kicking us out would have been suicide for them as long as the Soviets were right next door. And it would be just as stupid for Iraq to tell us to get lost as long as Iran's next door, which will probably be for a long time, much as I might prefer it otherwise.

But if they did, and we thought we needed to stay, we ought to politely decline.