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« Update on American Soldiers Who Burned Dead Taliban | Main | Andrea Mitchell: Dazed and Confused »
November 27, 2005

Defending Al Gore

A little at least. I hate doing this. But...

TigerHawk argues that Al Gore is being disingenuous on the subject of "extraodinary renditions," because he previously (as VP) expressed strong support for the practice. And now of course he speechifies against it.

The trouble is that there are two sorts of actions described by the jargon/euphemism "extraordinary rendition." One is an illegal snatch of a terrorist or other criminal. There's no arrest by the host country, no agreement for rendition to the US. We just grab him off the street and stuff him into a CIA plane (hopefully not one of the dozens outed by the NY Times as part of the nation's covert airwing.)

Thus "extraordinary rendition" means an extralegal rendition.

The second sort of extraordinary rendition is a clandestine, not-quite-legal (in the sense that typical legal formalities aren't observed) delivery of a terrorist to a third country, one which has a less squeamish view of the efficacy of coercion as an interrogation tool.

The quote TigerHawk has dug up (from Richard Clarke's book) shows him in favor of the first sort of extraordinary rendition ("He's a terrorist. Go grab his ass") but his speechifying on the subject seem to concern the second sort.

One involves taking someone (illegally, but justifiably) into US custody. The other involves delivering someone (again, somewhat illegally but justifiably) out of US custody and into the tender mercies of, say, Saudi Arabia's secret police. We have evidence no smoking-gn quote to prove he's ever been a strong supporter of the second.

Well, at least TigerHawk's quote doesn't establish that. Certainly, though, continuing to serve in an administration that admitted it had performed the second sort of E.R. is evidence of a tacit acceptance of the practice, at the very, very least.

But that doesn't advance the ball much. We already knew all of that. We've known for years that Clinton performed the second sort of ER, and no one in the liberal press made much of an issue about it. Far from it-- the practice was put forth as evidence that, contrary to public perception, Clinton really was "tough on terrorists."

And while Clinton did this without much criticism -- from Gore, from Kennedy, from the rest of the yowling, yapping puppies of the not-entirely-loyal opposition -- suddenly when Bush does it it's a major breach of international law and proof that we've "lost our country" and are degenerating into a 21st Century Gestapo state.


posted by Ace at 12:47 PM
Comments



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/26/AR2005112600745_pf.html

Sorry to be OT a bit, but I thought the "patriots" who think siding with Zarqawi would like to know how effective they are and how truly hated they are.

Posted by: eddiebear on November 27, 2005 01:04 PM

Nice link, eddiebear. I wonder if we'll see this poll cited on the nightly news? I'm not holding my breath...

Posted by: BrewFan on November 27, 2005 01:13 PM

Hey, don't get lost in semantics. Extralegal, extrashmegal. I don't know if there is some American law or treaty that forbids grabbing shitbirds off the street in another country, but it seems that doing so is merely an extraordinary act.
Basically, screw diplomacy, we are going to exercise our perogatives on someone else's soil.

So, I don't think its illegal, its just likely to piss off another country. But the president has that sort of power. Sort of like bombing them. Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke. Seriously, this is where countries differ, where diplomacy and war powers start mattering. If Maryland started yanking Philly Eagle fans off of their McDonalds jobs, there would be legal difficulties, but not so much in the international sense.

Posted by: joeindc44 on November 28, 2005 01:15 AM

Nice job in distinguishing modes of ER.

When talking legal status, these distinctions matter.

This distinction of sending to another country, secretly, in violation of all kinds of treaties, seems to be central in the EU uproar about the planes with prisoners landing on their turf.

Posted by: tubino on November 28, 2005 10:36 AM

This issue was tossed around a bit in the comments to my post, and in the comments to the linking post at Protein Wisdom. I don't disagree with your argument -- the quoted bit from Clarke's book does not prove that Gore supported that "snatch and render" bit. Two points though. The Clinton administration did plenty of the other type as well, and I, for one, have not found any statement by Gore saying he supported snatches but objected when the prisoners were rendered. Second, Clarke did not draw this distinction in his book, so it is not clear that the differences loomed as large in the 90s or even when Clarke was writing 18 months ago than they do in the presently charged climate. In any case, I was less condemning Gore than wondering why MSM journalists had not pushed him on this topic. Perhaps they have, and I've just missed it.

Posted by: TigerHawk on November 28, 2005 08:09 PM

AL GORE mr HOT AIR himself

Posted by: spurwing plover on December 1, 2005 05:22 PM

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Posted by: scat lovers on January 7, 2006 08:12 AM

Oh God, I just clicked on Scat Lovers link... I thought it was a site about Mel Torme or Ella Fitzgerald. It wasnt.


skiddley-boo-bop-poop

Posted by: The Velvet Amish on January 7, 2006 09:10 AM
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"It's f**king f**ked."
-- reportedly a genuine comment offered by a "senior Labour source"
Correction: I wrote that Labour is losing 88% (now 87%) of the seats it is "defending." I think that's wrong. The right way to say it is the seats they are contesting -- that is, they don't necessarily already hold these seats, but they have put up a candidate to run for the seat. It's still very bad but not as bad as losing 87% of the seats they already held.
Basil the Great
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🚨ED MILIBAND [a Minister in Starmer's government] SAYS KEIR STARMER WILL RESIGN AS PRIME MINISTER

He has reportedly reassured Labour MP's that Starmer will be resigning following the disastrous results tonight

It's over
"The end of the two party system in the UK" as first the Fake Conservatives and now Labour chooses political suicide rather than simply STOPPING THE INVASION
Incidentally, the only reason this didn't already happen in the US is because of the Very Bad Orange Man (who is right on 85% of all policy calls and extremely, existentially right on 15% of them)
No political party that is NOT also a doomsday religious cult would EVER choose a cataclysmic loss -- and possible extinction as a party -- to support a toxically unpopular favoritism of NON-CITIZEN ILLEGAL MIGRANTS over actual citizen voters.

Only a cult does this.
Now they've lost 84%.
Annunziata Rees-Mogg
@zatzi
If this continues Labour loses 2,148 seats tonight.

That is much worse than the worst case predictions I’ve seen.

Cataclysmic

Update: They've now lost 88% of the seats they're defending. As I mentioned earlier, I think I heard that London will not bail them out, as many of those Labour seats will probably flip to "Muslim Independent" or Green. Detroit's 5am vote will not save them.
Yup, Labour is losing 80% of its seats...
The British Patriot
@TheBritLad

🚨 BREAKING: Labour have lost 80% of all seats contested as of 2:25 AM.<
br> If this continues, Keir Starmer will be out of office next week.

Reform has surged and projected to pick up between 1700-2100 seats.


Wow, up to 1700-2100 seats. It's not incredible that this is happening. It's incredible that the Davos crowd is so absolutely determined to privilege Muslim "migrants" over the actual native population who elects them, no matter how loudly the natives scream that they want to be prioritized, that they will gladly self-extinguish as a party rather than simply representing the interests of their own voters. Astonishing.
Remember, when they call other people "cultists" -- they are the ones so imprisoned in their social reinforcement and discipline bubbles that they will choose political death rather than dare upset the Karen Enforcement Officers of their cult.
Update: Now they've lost 83% of the seats they were defending.
(((Dan Hodges)))
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Reform are basically wiping Labour out in the North. It's not a defeat. It's not even a rout. Labour are simply ceasing to exist.


Nick Lowles
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Tonight’s results are calamitous for Labour. Not just for Keir Starmer's leadership, but for the very future of the party
STARMERGEDDON: In early returns, Reform gains 135 seats, Labour loses 90, the Fake Conservatives lose 36 (and I didn't even know they could fall any further), the Lib Dems lose 4, and the Greens gain 6. Note that the only other party gaining seats is the Greens and they're only gaining a handful of seats.
Update: Reform now up 145, Labour down 98.
Labour projected to lose Wales -- where they've ruled for 27 years.
Fulton County Georgia just discovered 400 boxes of ballots for Labour
Update: REF +156, LAB -107, CON -45
Brutal: In four out of five council seats where Labour is defending, they've lost. 80%.
I'm sure it's not this simple, but Reform is straight taking Labour's and the "Conservatives'" seats. They've lost almost exactly what Reform gained. If understand this right (and warning, I probably don't), all of London's council seats are up for election, and Labour might lose hugely there, as their old voters abandon them for Reform, Muslim Indenpendents, and the Greens.
REF +190, LAB -134, CON -56.
Updates on the Labour collapse in council elections -- which wags are calling #Starmergeddon -- from Beege Welborne. There are about 5000 seats up for grabs, Labour is expected to lose 1,800, Reform will probably gain 1,580, up from... zero. So this would be more than that.
People claim that while Labour has adopted the Sharia Agenda to appeal to the million Muslims it allowed to migrate to the country, those voters are ditching Labour to vote for the Muslim Independent Party or the Greens. Delicious. This shadenfreude is going straight to my thighs.
Oh, and if Starmer loses about as badly as expected, Labour will toss him out of a window Braveheart style and replace him. He will announce he is resigning to spend more time with his Gay Ukrainian Male Prostitutes.
Media bias and senationalism are as old as, well, the media:
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That was written by Denny O'Neill and illustrated by, get this, Frank Miller. Editor to the Stars Jim Shooter was in charge at the time.
I always thought the gag was original to the comic book, but in fact the "Threat or Menace" headline was a satirical joke about media bias and sensationalism for a long while. The Harvard Lampoon used it in a parody of Life magazine: "Flying Saucers: Threat or Menace?"
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Leftists who have been drawing Frankendistricts for decades are suddenly upset about Republican line-drawing
Socialist usurper Obama cut commercials urging Virginians to vote for the bizarre "lobster" gerrymander -- but now says gerrymanders are so racist you guys
Obama is complaining about the new Louisiana map -- but here's the thing, the new map has much more compact and rational borders than the old racial gerrymander map
Pete Bootyjudge is whining too. But here's the Illinois gerrymander he supports.
Big Bonus! Under the new Florida congressional map, Debbie Wasserman Schultz will probably lose her seat
And she can't even go on The View because she's ugly a clump of stranger's hair in the bath-drain
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