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November 27, 2005

Defending Al Gore

A little at least. I hate doing this. But...

TigerHawk argues that Al Gore is being disingenuous on the subject of "extraodinary renditions," because he previously (as VP) expressed strong support for the practice. And now of course he speechifies against it.

The trouble is that there are two sorts of actions described by the jargon/euphemism "extraordinary rendition." One is an illegal snatch of a terrorist or other criminal. There's no arrest by the host country, no agreement for rendition to the US. We just grab him off the street and stuff him into a CIA plane (hopefully not one of the dozens outed by the NY Times as part of the nation's covert airwing.)

Thus "extraordinary rendition" means an extralegal rendition.

The second sort of extraordinary rendition is a clandestine, not-quite-legal (in the sense that typical legal formalities aren't observed) delivery of a terrorist to a third country, one which has a less squeamish view of the efficacy of coercion as an interrogation tool.

The quote TigerHawk has dug up (from Richard Clarke's book) shows him in favor of the first sort of extraordinary rendition ("He's a terrorist. Go grab his ass") but his speechifying on the subject seem to concern the second sort.

One involves taking someone (illegally, but justifiably) into US custody. The other involves delivering someone (again, somewhat illegally but justifiably) out of US custody and into the tender mercies of, say, Saudi Arabia's secret police. We have evidence no smoking-gn quote to prove he's ever been a strong supporter of the second.

Well, at least TigerHawk's quote doesn't establish that. Certainly, though, continuing to serve in an administration that admitted it had performed the second sort of E.R. is evidence of a tacit acceptance of the practice, at the very, very least.

But that doesn't advance the ball much. We already knew all of that. We've known for years that Clinton performed the second sort of ER, and no one in the liberal press made much of an issue about it. Far from it-- the practice was put forth as evidence that, contrary to public perception, Clinton really was "tough on terrorists."

And while Clinton did this without much criticism -- from Gore, from Kennedy, from the rest of the yowling, yapping puppies of the not-entirely-loyal opposition -- suddenly when Bush does it it's a major breach of international law and proof that we've "lost our country" and are degenerating into a 21st Century Gestapo state.

posted by Ace at 12:47 PM

Comments

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/26/AR2005112600745_pf.html

Sorry to be OT a bit, but I thought the "patriots" who think siding with Zarqawi would like to know how effective they are and how truly hated they are.

Posted by: eddiebear on November 27, 2005 01:04 PM

Nice link, eddiebear. I wonder if we'll see this poll cited on the nightly news? I'm not holding my breath...

Posted by: BrewFan on November 27, 2005 01:13 PM

Hey, don't get lost in semantics. Extralegal, extrashmegal. I don't know if there is some American law or treaty that forbids grabbing shitbirds off the street in another country, but it seems that doing so is merely an extraordinary act.
Basically, screw diplomacy, we are going to exercise our perogatives on someone else's soil.

So, I don't think its illegal, its just likely to piss off another country. But the president has that sort of power. Sort of like bombing them. Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke. Seriously, this is where countries differ, where diplomacy and war powers start mattering. If Maryland started yanking Philly Eagle fans off of their McDonalds jobs, there would be legal difficulties, but not so much in the international sense.

Posted by: joeindc44 on November 28, 2005 01:15 AM

Nice job in distinguishing modes of ER.

When talking legal status, these distinctions matter.

This distinction of sending to another country, secretly, in violation of all kinds of treaties, seems to be central in the EU uproar about the planes with prisoners landing on their turf.

Posted by: tubino on November 28, 2005 10:36 AM

This issue was tossed around a bit in the comments to my post, and in the comments to the linking post at Protein Wisdom. I don't disagree with your argument -- the quoted bit from Clarke's book does not prove that Gore supported that "snatch and render" bit. Two points though. The Clinton administration did plenty of the other type as well, and I, for one, have not found any statement by Gore saying he supported snatches but objected when the prisoners were rendered. Second, Clarke did not draw this distinction in his book, so it is not clear that the differences loomed as large in the 90s or even when Clarke was writing 18 months ago than they do in the presently charged climate. In any case, I was less condemning Gore than wondering why MSM journalists had not pushed him on this topic. Perhaps they have, and I've just missed it.

Posted by: TigerHawk on November 28, 2005 08:09 PM

AL GORE mr HOT AIR himself

Posted by: spurwing plover on December 1, 2005 05:22 PM

scat domination shit fetish eating shit sick shit do niggers shit more than white ppl video scat funky shit crazy shit scat movies free scat movies scat free shit girls eating shit shit eating drawbacks crazy ass shit shit face scat porn fucked up shit gay shit kazaa lite without the shit scat fetish funky shit

Posted by: scat lovers on January 7, 2006 08:12 AM

Oh God, I just clicked on Scat Lovers link... I thought it was a site about Mel Torme or Ella Fitzgerald. It wasnt.

skiddley-boo-bop-poop

Posted by: The Velvet Amish on January 7, 2006 09:10 AM


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The trouble is that there are two sorts of actions described by the jargon/euphemism "extraordinary rendition." One is an illegal snatch of a terrorist or other criminal. There's no arrest by the host country, no agreement for rendition to the US. We just grab him off the street and stuff him into a CIA plane (hopefully not one of the dozens outed by the NY Times as part of the nation's covert airwing.) Thus "extraordinary rendition" means an extralegal rendition. The second sort of extraordinary rendition is a clandestine, not-quite-legal (in the sense that typical legal formalities aren't observed) delivery of a terrorist to a third country, one which has a less squeamish view of the efficacy of coercion as an interrogation tool. The quote TigerHawk has dug up (from Richard Clarke's book) shows him in favor of the first sort of extraordinary rendition ("He's a terrorist. Go grab his ass") but his speechifying on the subject seem to concern the second sort. One involves taking someone (illegally, but justifiably) into US custody. The other involves delivering someone (again, somewhat illegally but justifiably) out of US custody and into the tender mercies of, say, Saudi Arabia's secret police. We have evidence no smoking-gn quote to prove he's ever been a strong supporter of the second. Well, at least TigerHawk's quote doesn't establish that. Certainly, though, continuing to serve in an administration that admitted it had performed the second sort of E.R. is evidence of a tacit acceptance of the practice, at the very, very least. But that doesn't advance the ball much. We already knew all of that. We've known for years that Clinton performed the second sort of ER, and no one in the liberal press made much of an issue about it. Far from it-- the practice was put forth as evidence that, contrary to public perception, Clinton really was "tough on terrorists." And while Clinton did this without much criticism -- from Gore, from Kennedy, from the rest of the yowling, yapping puppies of the not-entirely-loyal opposition -- suddenly when Bush does it it's a major breach of international law and proof that we've "lost our country" and are degenerating into a 21st Century Gestapo state. posted by Ace at 12:47 PM Comments http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/26/AR2005112600745_pf.html Sorry to be OT a bit, but I thought the "patriots" who think siding with Zarqawi would like to know how effective they are and how truly hated they are. Posted by: eddiebear on November 27, 2005 01:04 PM Nice link, eddiebear. I wonder if we'll see this poll cited on the nightly news? I'm not holding my breath... Posted by: BrewFan on November 27, 2005 01:13 PM Hey, don't get lost in semantics. Extralegal, extrashmegal. I don't know if there is some American law or treaty that forbids grabbing shitbirds off the street in another country, but it seems that doing so is merely an extraordinary act. Basically, screw diplomacy, we are going to exercise our perogatives on someone else's soil. So, I don't think its illegal, its just likely to piss off another country. But the president has that sort of power. Sort of like bombing them. Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke. Seriously, this is where countries differ, where diplomacy and war powers start mattering. If Maryland started yanking Philly Eagle fans off of their McDonalds jobs, there would be legal difficulties, but not so much in the international sense. Posted by: joeindc44 on November 28, 2005 01:15 AM Nice job in distinguishing modes of ER. When talking legal status, these distinctions matter. This distinction of sending to another country, secretly, in violation of all kinds of treaties, seems to be central in the EU uproar about the planes with prisoners landing on their turf. Posted by: tubino on November 28, 2005 10:36 AM This issue was tossed around a bit in the comments to my post, and in the comments to the linking post at Protein Wisdom. I don't disagree with your argument -- the quoted bit from Clarke's book does not prove that Gore supported that "snatch and render" bit. Two points though. The Clinton administration did plenty of the other type as well, and I, for one, have not found any statement by Gore saying he supported snatches but objected when the prisoners were rendered. Second, Clarke did not draw this distinction in his book, so it is not clear that the differences loomed as large in the 90s or even when Clarke was writing 18 months ago than they do in the presently charged climate. In any case, I was less condemning Gore than wondering why MSM journalists had not pushed him on this topic. Perhaps they have, and I've just missed it. Posted by: TigerHawk on November 28, 2005 08:09 PM AL GORE mr HOT AIR himself Posted by: spurwing plover on December 1, 2005 05:22 PM scat domination shit fetish eating shit sick shit do niggers shit more than white ppl video scat funky shit crazy shit scat movies free scat movies scat free shit girls eating shit shit eating drawbacks crazy ass shit shit face scat porn fucked up shit gay shit kazaa lite without the shit scat fetish funky shit Posted by: scat lovers on January 7, 2006 08:12 AM Oh God, I just clicked on Scat Lovers link... I thought it was a site about Mel Torme or Ella Fitzgerald. It wasnt. skiddley-boo-bop-poop Posted by: The Velvet Amish on January 7, 2006 09:10 AM Post a comment Name: Email Address: URL: Comments: Remember info?	Now Available! 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