I'm usually skeptical about this sort of thing, but I've got a good feeling about this one.

Debka's got something on it, too:

DEBKAfile Exclusive: Eight high-ranking al Qaeda leaders blew themselves up after a large American force Sunday noon laid siege to a building in which they were barricaded in Mosul, northern Iraq.

The US force, backed by helicopters and tanks, was led to the location by an intelligence tip. The troops had evacuated the area and were preparing to storm the building when the terrorists killed themselves.

Some Arab sources report that the American unit is busy trying to identify the 8 bodies, hoping against hope that Abu Musab al Zarqawi is among them. This is not confirmed by US military sources.

Allah, fwiw, I have the same feeling. I think its grounded in the fact that the noose has been drawn tighter and tighter over there with the river offensives. A commander can have only so much mobility.

Al-Zarqawi's Jordan Family Renounces Him

I was thinking it might be related to this.

Would be great either way. Either way, watch for him becoming the Mesopotamian Elvis.

If its true, I hope the do a morgue shot like they did for Uday and Qusay.

I heard Rumsfeld say this morning that the Jordan bombing may turn out to be a huge miscalculation for Zarqawi and that the number of tips coming in from Iraqis about the terrorists has increased by a large number. All fingers crossed on this one.

"Good Feeling" isn't enough to kill him. Although that would be totally sweet.

Drudge is reporting it now, but without the red headlines and flashing lights.

If he is dead, I hope they can find enough of his head to put on a pike.

I'd like them to render his corpse down to ashes, then sell the ashes in little baggies like tea-bags. I could then buy a couple of them, and then make a ritual of pissing on them every day for the rest of my life. Then before my death, I'd bury the pissyellowed bags under a load of fermenting pigshit at some hog farm.

Oh, please, let this be true.....

He was reported dead at least once before. It's possible this report is correct (and I sure hope it is) but it could just be buzz, and it could be deliberate disinformation by al Qaeda itself to try to get the Amis off the track.

Man, I'd like this to be true.

Michael Barone, in some interview I read over at Radioblogger a couple weeks ago, made the point that right now, the press is 'bad news from Iraq' overdrive, but that it'll eventually shift, that the good news will eventually start coming out.

I think that's true. Despite an underlying ideological antipathy, reporters eventually'll start playing up the counterstory to the story they've been selling previously. Just the nature of the profession.

Al Zarqawi's death might be just the signal event that gets them off their asses and that it's time for the 'inklings of a tentative (potential) desert bloom?' storylines.

How dare you impugn this noble freedom fighter and minuteman!

If the report is true, the only thing he'll be "mobilizing" now is worms.

I'd like them to render his corpse down to ashes, then sell the ashes in little baggies like tea-bags. I could then buy a couple of them, and then make a ritual of pissing on them every day for the rest of my life. Then before my death, I'd bury the pissyellowed bags under a load of fermenting pigshit at some hog farm.

Uh...OK.

(I was relieved at least to find you weren't going to actually make tea with his ashes as I'd initially feared.)

tubino,

If true, my condolences.

Does Iowahawk know anything? Zarqawi would guest blog over there.

I forgot to echo roscoe's condolences to tubino. Allah be with you tubino.

If he is dead it would be a good time to figure out who is going to replace him and kill that fucker also.

Damn.
Another grim milestone for leftists.

Heh.

tubino,

If true, my condolences.

Pardon me, but I'd like to send you a very hearty and sincere FUCK YOU.

Did you get that okay? Should I repeat?

Fuck you very much.

If the Cheney administation had ever been serious about stopping Al Q, they wouldn't have let OBL go at Tora Bora. I'm still pissed that they can't be bothered to actually pursue the 9-11 group.

This admin hasn't been serious about winning, ever.

I hope like hell this is true but worst case, 8 senior level al-Qaida terrorists are dead. Unlike so our lefty friends, I have never bought the arguement that our presence in Iraq is birthing terrorists. Rather, we have created a place where they come to fight our soldiers rather than kill civilians on our soil. Only the most basic of all military principles, choose your battlefield. If you believe the body count numbers of the "insurgents" we seem to be doing a damn effective job of it.

They can't sustain the deaths of the leadership forever. We are winning.

Damn.
Another grim milestone for leftists.

Another cheap, divisive shot from the right.

Why don't you do something useful instead?

How about getting security clearances pulled from those who have leaked classified information?

How about looking into actual connections between rightwingers and actual terrorists?

Wasn't Sandy Burgler's clearance only pulled for three years for stealing classified information. You're right, it should have been permanently pulled.

"Unlike so our lefty friends, I have never bought the arguement that our presence in Iraq is birthing terrorists. "

Unlike our righty friends, I actually read the surveys showing that a majority of Iraqis now support attacks on US forces. That's the kind of support that the US invasion and occupation (and corrupt mismanagement, and arrogant leadership, and whitewash of prisoner abuse, etc.) has brought in Iraq.

Clapping and wishing and hoping doesn't change reality.

Pointing out realities does not mean SUPPORT for those realities.

Propaganda has uses in war, but reality is what matters for measuring results.

We don't want to capture OBL. We want him to keep recruiting and telling the same lies over and over.
Just like CAIR.....

The problem with the theory of the 'big lie' is that it doesn't work if people keep seeing something that contradicts it.

CAIR keeps saying that Islam is peaceful; I don't think anyone believes that too much. Not anymore.

And OBL keeps saying demonstrably false things about the West.

After a while, the most hardened Islamic Supremicist, is going to realize that what what he wants to believe just isn't true.

I just hope the grief won't make tubby bitter or irrational.

Oh you have a poll? Well that settles it for me. I have changed my position completely.

To be honest my concern about the wishes of the Iraqis is not my top priority. My top priority is killing terrorists in the middle east instead of mid-town Manhattan. The US will never be safe as long as the 17-century killers are allowed to roam free. Thats not a poll its a fact. Fight them there or fight them here.

What's you choice?

I'm still pissed that they can't be bothered to actually pursue the 9-11 group

In what way? Piss on ground zero hoping to hit some smidgen of their ashes that might remain?

I just hope the grief won't make tubby bitter or irrational.

Ooops! Too late!

P.S., I have to say, though, that he's a master at changing the subject.

After a while, the most hardened Islamic Supremicist, is going to realize that what what he wants to believe just isn't true.

What they want to believe is the 72 virgins thing. For the most part, the US military is willing to oblige and expedite their exploration of the afterlife ;->

So, Abu Musab, don't say we never did anything for you.

If they had nabbed OBL at Tora Bora back in 2001 would have been jumping up and down for joy? No, I honestly don't believe you would. Your hatred of Bush trumps everything.

medic

My previous post was directed to al tubino

Unlike our righty friends, I actually read the surveys showing that a majority of Iraqis now support attacks on US forces.

As usual, Tubino fails to get his facts straight. From the Telegraph article (10/23/05):

Forty-five per cent of Iraqis believe attacks against British and American troops are justified - rising to 65 per cent in the British-controlled Maysan province

I would definitely want to know more about the methodology and questions before I believed even the 45% number.

Tubby, look at the bright side, at least your friends are making progress in France.

I don't want to rain on the parade, but it is a bit early yet.

Last time, we had him zeroed in riding in a pickup, and the slippery f**ker jumped out under a bridge and got away.

Besides, I'm not sure it is better to do him in yet, people are starting to be against him in Jordan and Iraq - the tide is starting to turn.

>i>If they had nabbed OBL at Tora Bora back in 2001 would have been jumping up and down for joy?

Were they jumping for joy over Hussein?

Were they jumping for joy over Hussein?

Nope. The Moonbats were claiming it was staged.

As a matter of fact, Democrats (not just the Moonbat wing) were pissed that Bush had the gall to visit the troops in Iraq two Thanksgivings ago.

Were they jumping for joy over Hussein?

Nope. The Moonbats were claiming it was staged.

As a matter of fact, Democrats (not just the Moonbat wing) were pissed that Bush had the gall to visit the troops in Iraq two Thanksgivings ago.

DaveInTexas:

"medic"

I'm still chuckling like a retard as I type this. Priceless.

geoff: the 45% is from an earlier poll. I read that the new figure is over 50% -- will provide link if I can locate, but a few percentage points difference only matters as trend. Point is the same: Iraq occupation has turned a largely pro-US Iraq into one with a very significant portion supporting violent terrorist attacks on US forces. Can you spin that?

From Bob Graham's op-ed today:

In February 2002, after a briefing on the status of the war in Afghanistan, the commanding officer, Gen. Tommy Franks, told me the war was being compromised as specialized personnel and equipment were being shifted from Afghanistan to prepare for the war in Iraq -- a war more than a year away. Even at this early date, the White House was signaling that the threat posed by Saddam Hussein was of such urgency that it had priority over the crushing of al Qaeda.

emphasis added. This admin was never serious about winning a GWOT.

Were they jumping for joy over Hussein?

Nope. The Moonbats were claiming it was staged.

I'm no moonbat, but I don't think those two beliefs are necessarily linked. I was jumping for joy but suspect that the capture may very well have been staged (as in the Kurds captured him but for political reasons it was better for the U.S. to capture him, so he was stuffed into a hole and "captured" a second time).

And I'm sure there are those out there that don't think it was staged but were not jumping for joy.

As for the lefties I know, most of whom aren't moonbats, most of them were happy that Saddam had been captured and hoped it would help calm Iraq and get the troops home soon.

They of course couldn't wait to pounce on the next serious attack as sign that capturing Saddam hadn't helped after all, but that's another story...

By the way, this is hitting the mainstream press:

Al-Zarqawi May Be Among Dead in Iraq Fight (AP)

And yet we are winning.
Go figure

I can spin it for ya bitch. The terrorists and their useful idiots in the west have been parroting for 2 years that all of the terrorism will stop once the "occupiers" leave. I'm sure people who have had years of suicide bombings and murder would love to believe that. It's not true as the recent bombing in Jordan proved the US forces are a convenient boggie man. And as I previously said, my concern for the opinion of the Iragi man in the street comes second to my concern for the security of the US.

I saw polls right before the last election that said that Kerry was trending for a win. How did that one work out for ya?

OBL is alive. The easter bunny is real. And Tuboflard is rational.

I'd like them to render [Zarqawi's] corpse down to ashes, then sell the ashes in little baggies like tea-bags..

Monty, I just imagined a little tea-bag sitting beside Jimmy Carter at the Democratic National Convention in '08.

Bad news for the terrorists is bad news for the Leftists. The asshole is already here trying to spin this for damage control.

Al-Zarqawi May Be Among Dead in Iraq Fight

Sorry, but I can't get on board with the "Osama is dead" stuff. I was pretty convinced he had been dead for quite some time, as were many people, including those making comments similar to yours deriding people that believed otherwise. Then Osama popped up with a new video right before the 2004 election.

After getting burned on that, now I want proof. Or at least a longer absence. If we hear nothing from the guy for, say, five years, then I'll start believing he's dead (or may as well be).

Bleat the tubino: Pardon me, but I'd like to send you a very hearty and sincere FUCK YOU.

Ooo. Looks like someone struck a nerve.

I really do feel sorry for you, tubby. At some point, all that bullshit you have to cram into your worldview in order to sustain it will hit critical mass.

Man, if only Bush could use that same Jedi Mind Trick he used on the New York Times and Bob Freaking Woodward on all the people of Iraq...

When I quoted this:

Al-Zarqawi May Be Among Dead in Iraq Fight

I actually meant to quote this:

OBL is alive. The easter bunny is real. And Tuboflard is rational.

Let me just try this whole thing again:

OBL is alive. The easter bunny is real. And Tuboflard is rational.

Sorry, but I can't get on board with the "Osama is dead" stuff. I was pretty convinced he had been dead for quite some time, as were many people, including those making comments similar to yours deriding people that believed otherwise. Then Osama popped up with a new video right before the 2004 election.

After getting burned on that, now I want proof. Or at least a longer absence. If we hear nothing from the guy for, say, five years, then I'll start believing he's dead (or may as well be).

If you want to know how the US is doing with fighting terrorists, why don't you read the US govt. assessments that Iraq has become an international terrorist training ground? That's not from a leftwing site, that's your own military assessment.

Avoiding reality doesn't change reality.
-------------------------

"Ooo. Looks like someone struck a nerve."

No, not quite right.

Why don't you come over, tell me to my face that I support the terrorists, and the striking will be unambiguous.

The FUCK YOU means, fuck you for suggesting that I support medieval religious fundamentalist fanatics.

Is that clear?

Of course, plenty of movers and shakers in your party invite such people for celebratory events.

Wasn't it TIME that published the article about how the Cheney admin passed up an opportunity to take out Zarqawi because it would weaken the case for an invasion?

This administration has never been serious about winning a war on the real terrorists who attacked the US on 9-11.

Iraq has become an international terrorist training ground?

So this is why the dems want to cut and run eh? So the terrorists can train without being bothered by all those insensitive clods trying to kill'em.

passed up an opportunity to take out Zarqawi because it would weaken the case for an invasion?

So there WERE terrorists in Iraq prior to the invasion? Excellent, you're making progress.

Fuck you, Tubino.
You do support the terrorists. You want the Americans to lose the War on Terror.
You're a fucking lying piece of shit and believe me, I would love to say this to your face.

Tubino is being treated as the next incarnation of Cedarford, so apparently he's done some things to piss people off, but I think he's making some good points here.

We need to win this war, so we need to know what the facts are. Yes, the media coverage has been relentlessly negative, and, yes, we are correct to jump on people that willfully ignore any positive news, but that shouldn't be taken so far as to discount anything negative that is said. If we have a problem, we need to realize it and do something about it, not mock the bearer of bad news.

I'm sorry, but if 45% of Iraqis are cheering on the terrorists, then that is a major problem that needs to be addressed. While I hope it is a problem with polling methodology or something like that, a number that high should be investigated.

Are we drawing in terrorists or breeding them? Obviously it's both. It is beyond dispute that non-Iraqis are streaming into the country to fight us. It is also pretty clear that at least a sizable minority in Iraq hates us and is now resorting to terrorist tactics. Anyone holding the position that not one new terrorist got created is being incredibly naive. We all hope, of course, that we're killing them faster than we're creating them, but we have to keep an eye on this.

Regardless of his flaws, Tubino makes complete sense here:

Pointing out realities does not mean SUPPORT for those realities.

Propaganda has uses in war, but reality is what matters for measuring results.

From what I've seen here, he's making the argument that we would have been better served in the War on Terror by not sending resources to Iraq and focusing more on Afganistan and elsewhere. That is a perfectly respectable argument. I do not see him anywhere saying he hopes we lose or that he agrees with the terrorists, and I think his anger at such accusations is justified.

tubino,

Actually, no one really thinks that you guys support Islamofascism. It's just seems that you would sooner see the war in Iraq lost than have to stomach the image of a "smirking", triumphant George Bush. You hate the guy that much.

I'm sure you hate Bin Laden/al Zarqawi etc. But I'm also sure that you hate Bush more.

Saddam offered OBL safe haven though.

Bob, that asshole is a total left-wing douche bag on every issue, not just the Iraq invasion. He recites all the typical talking points from Kos and Atrios: the election results, healthcare, Haliburton, NAFTA, etc.

He doesn't make any good points at all. He cuts from lefty blogs and pastes on righty blogs. He is neither informed, nor original.

The asshole claims the US government isn't serious on winning the War on Terror. Yet he continues to prevent the US from "mishandling" the terror suspects. For the last time, nobody except the anti-American moonbats care about mistreating prisoners, a.k.a. slapping around terrorists.

That's how serious I am about winning. I want to strike fear into ANYBODY who even thinks about committing a terrorist act.

Fuck him. If it were up to him, (and if he were an American) he would only try to prosecute the actors of the September 11th attacks. He would serve them papers, issue warrants for arrest. That's his idea of being serious on a WoT.

Tubino is a sniveling, smart ass, lying coward.

Bob -

The estimates are that between 32 to 37% of the population of Iraq is Sunni. I think its pretty safe to say that none of them support us for pretty obvious reasons.

Given that does 45% sound like such a big wow? As to Afgahnistan, what exactly would you have us do there that we are not currently doing? If we had more troops there do you honestly think the left wouldn't be whinning about getting our troops our of there asap? Where is this elsewhere you speak of? France?

Iraq was a breeding ground and safe haven for terrorists long before the war. Thats not the right wing speaking, thats the UN and virtually every credible international intelligence agency. The fact is that many on the left don't like bush, don't like his policy of pre-emptive action and will take any opportunity to flail away.

I have yet to see anyone here say that the bush administration is perfect and that things might have been handled better. Hindsight is great that way. But that doesn't mean this was not a war worth fighting and that we are not winning. It is and we are.

Sorry, but I don't think what he says is reasonable or perfectly respectable.

*sigh* I can't say it enough, Bob, just because there are kernels of corn in his shit, it does not make him a chef when he serves it to you.

Moreover, people like Tubino, i.e. the Anti-Bush crowd, are as responsible for the deaths of soldiers as the terrorists/insurgents.

The blood is on their hands, too. I regard them as obstacles to victory and sympathizers to the enemy.

This has never been a discussion about how to best confront and defeat terrorism abroad, this has always been about whether we SHOULD confront terrorism or whether we should buy enough lube that it doesn't hurt as much when we get fucked (because we were probably asking for it anyway).

But sure, let's try taking tubtard seriously again. After all, someone DID actually lie and misrepresent our Iraq intellegence to make a false case to the public for political gain, and they were aided and abetted by the media... I think his name was Joe Wilson...

no one really thinks that you guys support Islamofascism

I do. They hate the Bush and the Christian Right that much. In this case it's "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." They wouldn't mind seeing America knocked down a few notches especially if it means it will spell doom for their political enemies.

They're fucking sick. They have decided that they cannot allow a victory for the Bush administration, at any cost.

The stakes are high, my friends. Very high, indeed, and the Democrats recognize this. The Republicans, however, do not see the writing on the wall and continue to fight these dregs with sticks while the other side is using guns.

No time to respond right now to everything, but I at least wanted to respond to this:

The estimates are that between 32 to 37% of the population of Iraq is Sunni. I think its pretty safe to say that none of them support us for pretty obvious reasons.

Given that does 45% sound like such a big wow?

For some reason I was thinking the Sunni population was much lower, like 15-20%. The CIA World Factbook says that Sunnis are 32-37% of the population. So, no, I guess 45% isn't as bad given that fact.

Of course, given that fact it makes the job there much tougher. And I wouldn't go so far as to say all Sunnis should automatically hate us. I thought supposedly some of the non-Baath Sunnis weren't great lovers of Saddam.

Bad news for the terrorists is bad news for the Leftists.

Just another restatement of Rush's frequent point that what is good for America is bad for the Dems. It's true and I guess it bears repeating, but it's a little like saying America's enemies don't like us. Actually, it's exactly like that.

And Bart, you were way over the line. Accusing tubby of supporting religion in any of its forms is just unfair. You know better. If people were blowing up innocents and attacking our soldiers on purely secular grounds, that would be a different story.

I'm reminded of how you need to be careful rescuing a drowning person lest they grab you and take you down with them. There are many good democrats who right now are in the death grip of tubby's (and his fellow travellers) hatred of Bush. I'd suggest they distance themselves before its too late. I don't think there is a chapter 11 for moral bankruptcy.

JackStraw - that 32 to 37% figure is for all Sunni in Iraq. Kurds and Turkomen are also Sunni; they're not the problem.

When people talk about the "Sunni insurgency" they mean the Sunni *Arab* insurgency of the 3 western provinces & Baghdad. This group makes up anywhere from 10 to 20 percent of the population, depending on whom you ask. Split the difference, call it 15%.

Even this group, however, is not a monolithic block. Some of the most Westernized (Arab) Iraqis are Sunni. True, the vast majority of the (Arab) Sunni are not down with the program. But not all.

What everyone needs to understand about Iraq is that it was under the control of a fascist, racist party/"movement" for decades. Just as Turkey has only recently and grudgingly admitted that Kurds exist (the hard-liners call them "Mountain Turks") - well, take that, multiply it by 1,000, remove any instutional checks, and you get modern-day Iraq.

It's not about Islam - or at least, it wasn't at first (after 1990 things took a different turn). It's about "Arabism."

How does a society go from such a situation to democracy? Sadly, we see the answer: haltingly, unsteadily, and very, very bloodily. If that last one is, in fact, really a word.

[This is why tubino is so depressing to talk to. The saner anti-war folk know these facts, they understand what the Ba'ath were, but because of our previous entaglement with them they've decided we're morally unqualified to remove them from power.

It's unclear to me which is worse - that position, or the DU people who think this is all a plot by Bushitler and that Zarqawi is actually a CIA agent named Chuck Peterson. (I was in this group up until about 3 years ago, so I have some sympathy for them too. They really do see themselves as champions of the True American Way, they're just wrong. IMHO. Which is to say, IMAO).

*holds up my right hand* I have a question.

oh shit... where's my right hand?

the DU people who think this is all a plot by Bushitler and that Zarqawi is actually a CIA agent named Chuck Peterson.

OK, WTF??!! And BTW, is "Chuck Peterson" an alias for and exraterrestrial entity? And, if so, is he one of the grays? Because we all know the grays are the bad guys. I'm just askin'.

I have to disagree with you Knemon. This whole issue is about both arabism and Islam. It's really not possible to talk about one without talking about the other. In fact a large percentage of people in the middle east identify much more readily with religion and clan (Kurds as you noted) than national borders.

Suffice it to say that I am not a bit surprised that there are at least 45% of the Iraqis who see us as part of the problem. These people have been going through a war for a long time and want it to end. There are probably only a small number of them who get real information as to what is going on. They are told daily by those doing the murdering and butchering that if we leave the killings will stop. I for one don't believe them.

And this problem has been a religious problem for a lot longer than the last 15 years. This problem started and has been abetted by the House of Saud when they promoted Wahhabism as the official religion of Arabia. Its tentacles have been spreading for centuries and we are dealing with the nightmare now. As long as "peaceful" Islamists sit on the sidelines and don't help stop these 17th century killers they are part of the problem.

I'm just wondering, is DNA really needed to identify a man with one wooden leg? How many terrorists with one leg are there anyway?

Well when you got a whole lot of body parts and not much else, DNA is the way to go.

"Gee was this Mustafa's hook?" "I dunno, this the Z-man's peg leg?" "Nah that looks like Mohammed's." "Ok who's eyepatch?"

"This whole issue is about both arabism and Islam."

Yeah, I guess you're right. In my mind I was meaning to say that the primary problem with Iraq's development over the past 37 years was Ba'athism, which started out "secular" ... that's not to say that Islam isn't a motivating factor for much of the "insurgency," because obviously it is.

What a mess.