the social protests and urban upheavals of the 1960's produced a stream of measures intended to increase political and economic opportunities rapidly for members of minority groups, and to stress the value of diversity to a democracy.

It wasn't our "measures" that made the difference. It was the change in our societal values, combined with a determined effort to rid out unconstitutional racist bigotry in the legal system.

France's problems aren't gonna be legislated or spent away.

I think journalists in the old days probably concentrated on reporting the objective facts with editorializing their reports according to their worldview.

At least in decades to come they'll relate everything to Iraq, rather than Vietnam. One hopes.

Hmm... marginalized ethnic group, treated as second-class citizens, with historically high unemployment rates, with mostly low-pay jobs when employed...

Watts? Kinda, but... the residents of Watts were NOT "immigrants."

Look, the French are no saints in the area of bigotry! The French have defined their own culture in such a way that immigrants are still called immigrants after THIRTY YEARS of living in France.

Most of the EU countries are having a hell of a time with immigrants and integration.

I think we in the US can feel proud , on the whole, for our acceptance of immigrants and the contributions they have made to our country. (FWIW, I'm a mix, with ancestors on one side coming here from England and Scotland in the 18th century, and on the other side they came over on boats in this century.)

What the French have done is a kind of hard secularism, and insistence on a rigid cultural definition. We in the US have been much more flexible and adaptable, in language, culture, dress, food.

Comparisons with civil rights progress in the 60s and 70s is somewhat useful, somewhat misleading, but a damn sight better than talk of "appeasement" or Islamic determinism to explain what's going on there.

Poor marginalized people get fed up, burn and tear stuff up. It has happened here, it has happened everywhere. It ain't a specific race or religion thing.

These "youths" are a lot more marginialized than they are poor. I have no doubt that there is a lot of racism against darker folks in France, but the reaction of a lot of these immigrant-descendants has been to turn to a radical form of sometimes-Islam that allows them to feel superior to, and thus despise, the French while providing a ready-made excuse for their inability to improve themselves, plus the authority to treat women like dirt. Historicaly, almost all imigrant groups have faced discriminiation, especially at first - Irish, Jews and Italians in America are notable examples of disliked immigrants that are now pillars of the community.

The thing is - these groups fought for acceptance - the Jews fought the quotas to get into the Ivy League schools, etc. The "youths" in these Franco-Burbs are not really fighting for inclusion - they are fighting to remain seperate yet on the rather generous dole. They want the French taxpayer (an endangered species, apparently) to continue to pay for their football, pot and designer clothes lifestyle, while at the same time maintaining that the write of French law does not run in their neighborhoods.

That's not to say that there aren't those who integrate successfully, but they are not the issue here - they're probably too busy working to burn cars.

The "Root Causes" here are numerous, complex and interlocking - and none lend themselves to an easy solution. The aggressive secularism of the French State is an extra irritant that provides friction not found in other western contries - or at least not the same degree (ie headscarf ban).

Had the French government tried to address these concerns 20 years ago it would have been hard - now it may be impossible wihtout rivers of blood.

While I appreciate Tubby's alternate worldview, I must disagree.

These people are not rioting because they want French society to be more inclusive. Most have no desire or intention of assimilating to Western culture.

The problem is they want to force their culture on the French. And, unfortunately...they have reached critical mass. They now routinely accost French women who are not wearing the hijab.

Long, but interesting article from Hugh Fitzgerald over at DhimmiWatch

Fitzgerald: Voila, deux-rivistes of the world

I will be so glad when the mindset of the '60s generation dies off (actually, since I'm younger than that and will be paying for their crabby, freeloading asses for years to come, I won't be shedding any tears when the whole friggin' generation dies off, but I'll save that diatribe for the next time a Social Security post rears its head).

Anyhoo, I've noticed the same thing, that for the media and America's far left, it's like they're still stuck in 1968 or something, mindlessly chanting Marxist platitudes and somehow confusing long-since discredited utopian nonsense with an actual plan for what we ought to be doing now.

Good post.

You know what I remember about the 60s? Whenever there was a riot, we called out the f'k'n National Guard. So, when the hell are they going to call out the g-d damned army?

I have seen this left-wing-fantasy interpretation a lot: we got over our racial conflicts by catering to left-wing demands for affirmative action, a giant welfare state, etcetera. Well, we did do those things, and they only made race relations worse. What finally worked (exemplified by Guiliani's NY) is effective law enforcement. Now that crime doesn't pay, fewer blacks are turning to a life of crime. We still have a long way to go, but we are getting there. Europe, in contrast, has almost no law enforcement. That's why they are doomed to receive a very loud wake up call. It's a 1 on the Richter scale now. My prediction: when it hits 9, they actually will wake up.

Which is wh Rudy can't fail.

*

tubino - can't it be resentment over discrimination etc. etc. AND islamist? Rather, the former exploited by the latter?

Alec,

I think you're right. It seems the French prefer to run their suburbs like the Democrats ran New Orleans, leaving whole neighborhoods lawless with disastrous results.

We shouldn't, however, underestimate how the effect of the general population's subservience to governmental authority has in creating this lax attitude toward law enforcement. Over the past few decades, the French have successfully inculcated in their kids a general aversion to challenging criminals or standing up to bullies. I don't seriously believe that much of French society has any clue what they are up against, and even if they did, wouldn't be able to muster the courage to stand up to it because they have been taught to walk away from fights, i.e. be the better man.

I'm glad I visited France again this past summer. It really was a beautiful place.

The Pats ARE in our heads, and for us true Colt fans, tonight's game is the first superbowl of the season.

go blue!

oh yeah....

I predict a score in THE SIXTIES!

Dr. Symes -

It's 'bellwether', not 'bellweather' ... this isn't a rebuke or anything, it's the blog equivalent of saying you've got a piece of salad stuck in your teeth.

cheers.

for the future Jeopardy! contestants, a bellwether was the wether (a sheep) that had a bell around its neck. The other sheep were trained to follow the sound of the bell. Thus, the shepherd only had to get the bell-wether to go in a direction and the rest of the sheep would follow.

my dictionary has a wether as a castrated ram.

ewe!!!!

(whew, that hurt)

I think we in the US can feel proud , on the whole, for our acceptance of immigrants and the contributions they have made to our country.

******

Unless your name is Dances with Rain Forest, we are ALL immigrants in the US. The reason we accept new arrivals basically with open arms, is because of this historical fact. You remember, that whole huddled masses thing. Its only in the last 40 years or so, not coincedentally, around the 60's that this whole multi-cultural, moral equivalence, hypenate everything bullshit started that we started having a good deal of the societal problems we now have.

Very few if any countries in the world share this background. They are for the most part ethnically pure and despite their claims to the opposite they are not very welcoming to immigrants. France, by its own admission, has done a terrible job of assimilating this latest wave of immigrants into their society and has purposefully kept them seperated in enclaves and affectively isolated them from the mainstream society.

Some interesting facts about these youths.

They aren't just youths from Africa. They are overwhelmingly from Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco. What do these countries have in common? All were up until recently colonies of that imperialistic nation, France. All are now almost 100% Muslim.

Here are a couple messages from blogs (ya gotta love the irony) these youths have been using to communicate:

"The cops are petrified of us, everything must burn, starting Monday, the operation 'Midnight Sun' starts, tell everyone else, rendezvous for Momo and Abdul in Zone 4 ... jihad Islamia Allah Akhbar."

"You don't really think that we're going to stop now? Are you stupid? It will continue, non-stop. We aren't going to let up. The French won't do anything and soon, we will be in the majority here."

The youths are also being reported on French TV to be shouting "Allahu Akbar" has they display their angst by burning cars, buildings, schools, buses and the occassional disabled woman.

No this ain't Watts and this ain't the 60's. This is worse and shows signs of getting very, very bad unless France and soon Germany and the rest of Europe wakes up and forcefully puts a stop to this insanity.

A simple "Welcome to France. Become French, adopt our ways or go back where you come from." would be an excellent start.

"I think we in the US can feel proud , on the whole, for our acceptance of immigrants and the contributions they have made to our country."

A good illustration of this: Ray Suarez, on the Lehrer NewsHour (yeah, yeah, I know), seemed very confused - several times he asked his interviewees "But these aren't immigrants, they're second or third-generation - why are they not assimilated?"

Because ... America, Fuck Yeah! Apparently we* can *do something right.

Jackstraw:
Even Dances with Rain Forest was an immigrant (granted much longer ago).

Oh, and I am NOT a crabby, freeloading 60's person! I will no doubt be working until I drop, dagnabbit! Far longer than YOU, young whippersnapper!

I am proud to be a Senior working slob!

re: BumperStickerist--
'...Or, as Truman Capote said of Jacqueline Susanne, "She doesn't write, she types." '

Actually, it was said by Capote of Jack Kerouac and "On The Road", not Susanne.

y'know, ....while we're at it.

I will be so glad when the mindset of the '60s generation dies off (actually, since I'm younger than that and will be paying for their crabby, freeloading asses for years to come, I won't be shedding any tears when the whole friggin' generation dies off, but I'll save that diatribe for the next time a Social Security post rears its head).

I was born in 1952, so I'm smack in the middle of the BB (although sans the 60s mindset), and I'm getting pretty sick of them/us myself. One of my main pains is those fawning financial commercials targeted at Boomers: "You were (this), you were (that), you were (everything that is wonderful) *first*." Feh. I don't think the Boomers ever faced anything remotely like the people at the turn of the 20th century, or the "greatest" generation did. I can't imagine coping with the changes of the nineteen-teens, or the Great Depression, or World War II - when the populace had to actually sacrifice on a personal level to support the war effort and the troops. What a bunch of ninnies we are.

Now that crime doesn't pay, fewer blacks are turning to a life of crime.

I guess that explains why the US incarceration rate is higher than any other developed country.

They aren't just youths from Africa. They are overwhelmingly from Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco.

Um... those are IN Africa. Now, do you notice anything else about those countries? Hint: colonial past.

Knemon asks, tubino - can't it be resentment over discrimination etc. etc. AND islamist? Rather, the former exploited by the latter?

Could be, for all I know. But sounds more about class and culture than religion to me. You know how the conflict in Northern Ireland is always reported as Catholics vs. Protestants, but isn't about religion at all? Like that.

A simple "Welcome to France. Become French, adopt our ways or go back where you come from." would be an excellent start.

They've been trying that, or something darn close. I know this must really hurt you anti-American types, but the US path of LIBERALISM really WORKS. The French could learn from us. BTW, if you look at the Turks in Germany, and North Africans in Spain, you see parallels... some things done better, too.

These people are not rioting because they want French society to be more inclusive. Most have no desire or intention of assimilating to Western culture. Inclusion does not always mean assimilation. There's your problem, right there. In the US, waves of immigrants have changed the culture -- it's not just the other way around.

Unless your name is Dances with Rain Forest, we are ALL immigrants in the US. The reason we accept new arrivals basically with open arms, is because of this historical fact.

Yes, of course... but there is a virulent anti-immigrant movement in the US -- as there has been in France for years. First you heard of this? Our history is not necessarily our future.

Tubino,

The reason fewer blacks are turning to crime is that they see more criminals going to prison. Moreover, if the criminals are in prison, they can't commit crimes against general populace. Thus, the crime rate goes down. Funny how that works.

That doesn't mean there aren't geographical differences. American liberals ran New Orleans and Louisiana and the result of their stewardship was high levels of crime and corruption. Then, the hurricane hit and the next thing we see is an unbelievable disaster complete with looting and social disintegration.

You know what is also in common with Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco besides their French colonial past? They are predominantly Muslim. Now, the modern practice of Islam worldwide appears to be disproportionately infected with a violent philosophy. The "scum" burning cars and churches are predominantly Muslim, spouting the same violent and destructive crap that the Palestinian terrorists and the Wahhabists spew.

Now, obviously, the French have a particularly repressive colonial past, particularly in Africa. I'm not excusing their attitudes toward their immigrants. But I find it difficult to believe that it is justifiable for anyone to go out and burn cars and churches simply because you're being rejected by the French. The French are assholes. That's to be expected when living in France.

We in America, like France, have accepted many immigrants. My family came back in the 70's. And it is true that the culture has changed a little because of that. But all immigrant groups which have succeeded here accepted all of the main American values and in particular, have accepted the need to be loyal to the nation itself. These "immigrants" in France don't see the need to be loyal to France, they consider it merely an administrative formality that their identification papers show them to be part of the French Republic.

These "youths" may feel alienated from the rest of France, but their communities have not always done a great job of demonstrating they want to be part of France either.

They aren't just youths from Africa. They are overwhelmingly from Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco.

Um... those are IN Africa. Now, do you notice anything else about those countries? Hint: colonial past.

Yes indeed I did notice it. Thats why this was the next statement I made, the one you left out when quoting me.

What do these countries have in common? All were up until recently colonies of that imperialistic nation, France.

I thought I was equally clear of my understanding of their geographic location with my first sentence of that paragraph.

They aren't just youths from Africa

Perhaps I should have been more explict. FRENCH colonialism. I'm sure you didn't mean to try to imply I was misleading or missing something by selectively quoting me. That would be, well liberal.

Why don't you get back to me and tell me all about the horrors of US colonialism. I am late for my immigrant stomping session.