I got the Frist Post!!

Thank you from the bottom of our hearts, leftist media! Romania has already had to take a lot of shit for supporting the US from Jaques "Kiss my derriere and keep your mouth shut!" Chiraq himself. Unlike Poland, we're not EU members yet, so this is just the kind of press we need right now.

"Democrats engaging in seditious leaking for partisan ends? That's just crazy-talk, that's all that is."

So politicians on the right and on the left are corrupt bastards. What's new?

next article:
"Since Mrs. Wilson wasn't a covert agent, she couldn't be outed. And that's why Libby is accused of lying to investigators but not of outing Wilson's wife. "

Ummm... wrong? I'm going to go out on a limb here, but if the CIA says she was a covert agent... wouldn't it be safe to assume she's a covert agent? I mean, the CIA are the only people who make that decision, not newspapers and not talking points.

Umm Pakis raping Aussies and blaming their Culture? Worst defense ever.

Moving along:
"Most of these kids are being coached by professional petty criminals and gang leaders in the suburbs," said Mr. Carne, president of Action Police CFTC."

Ace forgot to include that sentance as the preface to the comment about heavy artillery.

I'm not sure which is more worrying, that petty french criminals & gangs have grenades or that they might decide to give them to rioting muslim teenagers.

"French authorities have hinted that Islamic militants may be manipulating angry teenagers to defy the government, using the Internet to organize the unrest."
translation: shit is going to get worse

http://www.magnificentoctopus.com/propaganda/yarrr.png

You say you want a revolution?

Yeah, well, you know... we're all doing what we can.

Too bad Volcker's draft report wasn't accidentally released with track changes.

You forgot one last item, Ace: how the U.N. wants to take over the Internet. In order to make sure that sites like this one remain open and free to say whatever they like ...

Bush must be getting dangerously close to accomplishing what he said he would because Kool-Aid drinkers worldwide are in a frenzy to so weaken him that Democrats can regain the majority in congress and … be still my heart, impeach and convict Bush for lying and so vindicate the big white bubba.

Oh happy days for moonbats. I, for one, am terrified.

HIJACK ALERT:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/01/18/iraq/main537096.shtml

Yeah our intelligence is so solid it is on par with garbage.

Damn, what stinks around here? Oh, the Donks.

Hooray for the Australian courts! Or at least the New South Wales courts; I wouldn't trust the Victorian court system to return a sane verdict at all.

Note that they previously appealed the verdict, and were knocked back. This time they were appealing the sentences (55 years for the oldest of the three scumbags) and were told to piss off.

He'll be 82 when - if - he gets out.

Strange, is it not, that many liberals believe in a Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy against liberalism and democracy when the evidence seems to point to a vast left-wing conspiracy against government, decency, truth, and stability?

I hope the government fully investigates the leak of the news that CIA has prisons in Eastern Europe, and I hope someone is indicted. Not for revenge or anything but simply for justice and to strike fear into the hearts of those who might consider leaking. Evidently, the indictment of Libby was not enough to stop leaks. If leaks continue because people believe in partisan immunity (i.e., only Republicans will be caught), perhaps it is fitting to make a reality the doctrine that all are equal under the law: the law will not excuse a person because of political affiliation.

Yay, Redskins! Way to go, TO!

Mark Steyn should be happy that a non-US, Western court has decided to uphold Western tradition and not look the other way when a poor, long oppressed type uses that status as an excuse for a crime. Steyn likes to point out some places in Europe have little Sharia strongholds, where the law ain't European.

These document dumps help get the week off right. Its not fun going back to some thread from last week with 300 identical posts, "Bush is teh terrorist" or "dude, the CIA did not protect Plame. Remember, Novak asked to confirm her status." "No, Plame was a covertNOc and Bush outed her to punish Wilson for forging documents." repeat 100 times.

RE: T.O.

In other news, T.O. and "Team Ambassador' and former Eagles player, Hugh Douglas got into a fist-fight in the trainers room.

I'm an Eagles fan going back to Roman Gabriel days and I liked Hugh Douglas ... but 'Team Ambassador' - what a pussy-job title no wonder Owens took a shot at you.

Hugh, talk to Joe Banner. Get your business cards to read Team Plenipotentiary and Ambassador Extraordinary

THEN, go into the trainers room.

.

If the court had agreed with that defence being peddled by the that poor, misguided Australian youth - would it have been grounds for having all men born and/or raised in Pakistan being declared dangerous sexual offenders?

As a die-hard Eagles fan here, I turned a blind eye to TO's antics last season. I was willing to give him a pass during his off-season stunts if he would just help get us a SuperBowl win. But now it's gotten to the point where not only do I want him out of Philly, I want his career to be over.

He wanted fireworks for his 100th TD reception? How 'bout for his departure from the NFL instead....

I can't for the live'o'me figure out what's wrong with the CIA having secret prisons where they torture terrorists for information. Any help?

Terrell Owens Is An Asshole

See, that's why I come here. Where else am I gonna get this kind of in-depth analysis, the story behind the story, the relentless fact-digging and investigation that separates fact from fiction?

Nowhere else, that's where.

Sum Guy,

Do you have a link pointing to where the CIA has said Plame was a covert agent? I honestly have never heard any one in any position to know of WTF they speak say this.

T.O. is simply a young man who comes from an economically deprived background. Its like he's saying, "I'm here, I exist." Ace and other tard commenters ignore, because they have no cultural awareness, that their hatred towards TO is a sign of the cultural gap that they are not willing to unilaterally take all the steps to bridge. Probably because they are all secretly gay for TO.

When I listen to TO trash his wealthy, upper-class teammates like McNabb or fight with fomer teammates, many of whom tended towards violent tackles on the field, like Douglas, I see a lot of rage, a lot of burning, a dramatic demand for recognition underscores the chasm between T.O. and other players who arrive in the NFL from priveleged backgrounds. That is why he identifies with fellow players on other teams who come from underprivileged backgrounds of poverty, with few options to ever succeed, like Brett Favre.

I see as TO as one of my kids, and like him I understand that, with respect to the NFL fat cats, "There's no way of getting their attention. The only way to communicate is by burning teammates."

Once again the biased liberal media is is supressing the news:

Terrell Owens Is An Asshole

Damn it! It really pisses me off. Thank you Ace for bravely saying what no one else except Michael Irving, Jimmy Johnson, Dan Marino, Steve Young, Tom Jackson, Shannon SHarp, Mike Ditka, Howie Long, Stuart Scott, The Purple People Eaters, and all of Philly have said. You are speaking truth to power. Bravo!

Seriously, T.O. is such an a-hole. I hope Philly suspends him for the rest of his contract and the next time he plays is 5 years from now.

Forget TO...Panther's cheerleaders living the Ace of Spades lifestyle....
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2216124

"Terrell Owens is an asshole," would be more accurately written:

"Further proof Terrell Owens is an asshole."

SPIN, BITCHES, SPIN!!!

You guys are a hoot.

If you get bored trying to shut down the few investigative journalists left, you might check in on what's happening with the Niger forgeries. Remember them?

And if it's TORTURE you want to talk about, you might check out some cautionary notes from a trained interrogator who literally co-wrote the book on interrogation techniques (handbook for marines).

While you're there you can read some nicely thought-out pieces on the pros and cons of interrogation and torture: legality, effectiveness, etc.

Incidentally, has anyone yet pointed out that in your eagerness to justify outing CIA agents, you're well into pro-Philip Agee territory? Yes, with some of the comments in the giant slime-Wilson thread, some of you nutcases are now squarely in the out-the-CIA-because-they-deserve-it camp of Agee. Like some of you, Agee claimed a moral right to out agents, because, he argued, CIA's evil nature deserved it. And Agee's actions led to the now-discussed legislation, and Bush Sr.'s passionate argument against such outings.

How does it feel to be a traitor to your own country?

Okay, go back to your moonbatty spinning.

*hands tubino the Antabuse*

take it - trust me this is for your own good.

Man, someone's bran muffins aren't doing their job this morning.

A link to an article who's main argument against the finding that the forgeries were part of a scam to make money, not influence policy is "nuh-uh!" This whole forgery business would be interesting, if it was the sole basis for something, but since there are other sources, who cares.

Tubes is a moonbat, but he is usually so well behaved, its funny for him to come out swinging with fullon tin-foil hat rage this morning. The second link is about how how private interogators are working in Iraq, and how they are not fully certified. And of course, that gives us the ability to throw the T word around. Hell, if Al Qaeda seys it, he believes it. Any link to the Al Qaeda training manual instructing captured tangos to lie about their jailing because useful idiots who hate America are willing to uncritically believe anything bad about their country?
As for private interogators, I remember reading about these slick guys in Homicide, mostly retired detectives, right?

turbino strikes me as the type of guy that comes into the middle of a conversation and makes what he thinks is a bitingly critical point (usually to show how smart he is). Since his comment is so innane, the rest of the group roll their eyes and try to change the subject rather than try to argue with an idiot.

Let's here more about the girl on girl TopCat action!

Tubino, what is it with you lefties? Why do you get lathered up over wars only when they are conducted by Republicans?

You are not anti-war in general, only anti-Republican-led-war. You and yr party's opposition to Iraq is synthetic, disingenuous and hypocritical.

OK, I have now replaced my keyboard. No more dropped letters as I type.

(We had a little hurricane a few days ago, and the window of my office building blew out (blew in?), and some debris seems to have gotten down in the keys. Banging on it seemed to cause no discernible improvement.)

Now, with the frustration-factor down, my mood may even improve to the point where people like Tubino don't make my ass itch.

Spoken like a true right-wing neocon. Bush lied, kids died! And refute this, if you can:

HALLIBURTON!

Ummm... wrong? I'm going to go out on a limb here, but if the CIA says she was a covert agent... wouldn't it be safe to assume she's a covert agent? I mean, the CIA are the only people who make that decision, not newspapers and not talking points.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here myself SG and say I think you are missing the point of the entire piece. The CIA is a highly politicied organization and always has been. What you thought these people became unthinking information gathering drones when they hit Langley? Get a grip.

The CIA is in the business of framing information and highly protective of their own. They are also masters of misdirection and CYA. The bottom line is they have been in the business of selective information leaking since day 1. They are also, not the Bush administration, the group responsible for providing whatever flawed information is now being debated. And yet the left is willing to give the CIA a pass and instead blame Bush and focus on what has not proven to be a crime. Marvleous.

Incidentally, I think I would choose to rely on the person who actually wrote the law the Bush administration is accused of breaking and the courts to make the call, not the organization making the charge. Unless of course we wish to do away with our system of jurisprudence. The person who helped write the law is Victoria Toensing. She has been quoted widely as saying this case does not reach the bar. And so far, after two years of looking, nobody has been charged with outing a covert agent.

So now the rest of the country is finally discovering what we poor 49er fans have known for years: T.O. is an asshole!

This guy was nothing but trouble from the word go. He was instrumental in getting Jerry Rice shown the door, used to insinuate that former QB Jeff Garcia was gay (like that matters), and he used to pitch a little shitfit every time the ball was not thrown to him. Despite the fact that he was the only player on the niners worth a damn, they just had to let him go in free agency. When the Eagles signed him, I thought, "Sure, you're happy now. Just wait."

I'm surprised it took so long.

Oh, and if it's true ( Plame/Wilson Scheme A "Covert Operation" Against the US Government?), then it's pretty funny that the initial part of the scheme is
1) Wilson writes op-ed, and WH admits using debunked evidence with uranium claim.

That's a covert operation??? Getting the WH to admit a MISTAKE?

But it gets better. The evil CIA -- according to you moonbats -- tricked Rove, Bolton, Cheney, Ari Fleischer, Libby et al, into revealing classified information! Hah! Yes, it was mind-control rays beamed into the WH!

And according to the covert plan, a CIA asset was compromised, and eventually an independent prosecutor (after the CIA used mind-control rays beamed into the WH to get Ashcroft to recuse himself!) was named! And then Scooter made up a whole fake story, which doesn't hold up -- so it must be a CIA COVERT OP! Brilliant!

Keep it up, boys, keep it up. I'll keep checking back for laughs.

Also adding these bits of wisdom from Ace of Spades into a nice folder to always be able to show the right is WAY past the radical 60's left when it comes to either betrayal or crazy CIA stories.

Some people on the left are under the impression that libs' economic theory and performance are such that they hold the key to good times. I mean, come on, Clinton balanced the budget and shit. And you get free health care in France. The obverse is that conservatives' reliance on markets and personal responsibility is a disaster in terms of economics.

To cover up for these short comings, conservatives have to distract the masses from the fact that they are eating discarded catfood, left from the wealthiest 1% after their tax cuts, by continually making up shit to get mad about. So, us conservatives gin up things like gay marriage or islamic terrorism to make you fuckers (I think I am in the top 1%, proles) forget how miserable we made it for you.

Tubes believes that and is pissed that we are so blind to the fact that we were lied to to get into Iraq, and we were lied to in order to keep us from seeing how bad bush's economic policy is. *cough* 4.9% unemployment.

Its kinda like fascism for free societies (debatable point about if we are free right now, what with PATRIOT act and all, but for now, lets assume we are freer than in China). Fascism was just a new spin on communism. Frustrated that people weren't being immizerated fast enough, or the communism just didn't have the selling power to the masses, the elites decided to dress up dreary, death camp socialism with parades and other relics of patriotism.

That's why idiot lefties link fascism and patriotism, but I digress, these two links are instructive:

good explanation of commie thought:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=4954

How does it feel to be a traitor to your own country?

HOW DARE YOU QUESTION MY PATRIOTISM!!!

Kind of a cheap, non-substantive response, I admit. But it's a Monday, and Tubino's being a little more grating than usual.

My longish post was in response to why tubino hates GOP wars, but prob thinks Bosnia, somalia, Khartoum and iraq circa 1998 were a-OK.

mu.nu wouldn't allow the link to the other article by david ramsay steele about why lefties think patriots are fascists, but you can find it.

TO is simply misunderstood, I tell ya.

"The person who helped write the law is Victoria Toensing. She has been quoted widely as saying this case does not reach the bar. And so far, after two years of looking, nobody has been charged with outing a covert agent."

Toensing does not have access to Fitzgerald's evidence. Toensing does not have access to Fitzgerald's evidence. Toensing does not have access to Fitzgerald's evidence. Toensing does not have access to Fitzgerald's evidence. Toensing does not have access to Fitzgerald's evidence.

Read what Fitzgerald said in the press conference. Toensing is a partisan hack, and her history shows that over and over. Yes, she is quoted widely -- that's how your SCLM works. Right-wing hacks are quoted widely, and rarely questioned.

yeah, yeah, yeah, Tubino. We went over this ad nauseum in a 100 other posts since Fitzmas. Since Toensing and Fitzmas both came to the same conclusion: no indictment, what the F are you talking about?

We have quoted Fitzy to the point of tedium, we have cited the law, and we have discussed the facts available. And it looks like we were right.

calm down, switch to decaf.

"HOW DARE YOU QUESTION MY PATRIOTISM!!!"

I would call anyone a traitor who would out a CIA agent, or who would defend outing on the grounds that the CIA is evil/anti-WH.
-----------------------------
Got a question for you all:

Do you think Karl Rove told Bush the truth about his role in the leak, way back when McClellan was giving briefings on it?

T.O.'s greatest moment was spiking the ball on the star in Texas Stadium when he played with the 49ers. It's been all downhill from there. Well, except for the Sharpie incident and the Desperate Housewives promo and the pretending to moon the fans in Green Bay (this is something they do on that side of the end zone, but it's not seen on TV so you may not know that.). :)

The Eagles are going down, probably to an 8-8 season. T.O. was the best player on that team with Westbrook a close second. McNabb is a distant third during the first 3 quarters of a game. Then, you start seeing the wild passes and interceptions.

I like Reggie Brown, he had a great game last night, but he ain't no T.O.

All those times on the Talking Head shows, when the pundits were saying that (the CIA, the State Dept., the Pentagon) did not like the Bush administration, it did not occur to me how serious this could become.

I could almost see why the State Dept. is against Bush (heavy on the libs), or the Pentagon with Rumsfeld doing the shake-up. Bush, however was keeping Tenet and most of the old network at CIA, was he not?

If we are in a climate where actions are taken by any goverment agency with designs to undermine any administration in power, there is no way it turns out good.

Hee hee. This is what I love:

"Since Toensing and Fitzmas both came to the same conclusion: no indictment, what the F are you talking about?"

SPIN, BITCHES, SPIN!

If you think Libby's indictment & Fitz's press conf. comes to the same conclusion as Toensing does, you are completely, utterly, irredeemably batty.

So joeindc44, do you think Karl Rove told Bush the truth about his role in the leak, way back when McClellan was giving briefings on it?

Why are the biggest assholes in football always wide receivers? Keyshawn Johnson, Randy Moss, Terrell Owens, Michael Irvine, Andre Rison.........

I can't think of any world class jerks playing any other position than WR, why is that?

scott raises a valid point

"All those times on the Talking Head shows, when the pundits were saying that (the CIA, the State Dept., the Pentagon) did not like the Bush administration, it did not occur to me how serious this could become."

I think it could get worse -- and I think this fighting between agencies is worse than at any time in my life (four+ decades). Look at the meltdown in the State Dept with Wilkerson. Tenet is refusing to be the fall guy with a Freedom medal. And the VP office is getting increasingly isolated. Here's a comment from another blog that I copied. I stupidly did not get the pseudonym of the person who wrote it, but I repeat it here because I think it fits pretty well.

What the nuts want to call a covert op looks more like a CIA pushing back hard after being pushed around, abused, made to sex up the intel, then blamed for it, then outed for pointing out that the WH sexed up the intel that the CIA gave the WH. An old-fashioned fight, IOW, but cranked up the level of criminality by the WH slime/outing.

-----------
My own minor addendum to all this is the institutional dynamic involved. Many in Cheney's circle, including Cheney himself as well as key players in WHIG, OSP cut their intel teeth serving old B-Team operation to second-guess CIA conclusions about the Soviets. The idea being that the CIA was not sufficiently hyping the threat. Turns out the B-Team was dead wrong but that doesn't appear to have ever given any of them pause. After the USSR collapsed and Clinton got elected they switched their obsession to the ME and Iraq in particular, and applied the same set of mistaken, amateurish, ideology-driven tools to the problem.
I think you've got a Pros vs Amateurs thing going on. I think Valerie Wilson was a Pro, and the Pro faction at CIA had an interest in exposing the lunacy of their new Neocon, ex-B-Team overlords who were trying to do the whole B-Team thing all over only now with real heavy political weight behind 'em. There's even a theory that the Niger forgeries were part of a scheme to expose the ineptitude of the Neocons (their obvious crudeness meant as a trap only an amateur would fall for).
I suspect this is the lens through which the WHIGnuts viewed the Wilson mission. "Rogue operation!" they told themselves (and us), meaning "An operation by the non-Team Players." You've got two factions dedicated to discrediting the other. And it looks very much now like the Pros are going to come out on top, while the Amateurs get seriously burned.

Do you think Karl Rove told Bush the truth about his role in the leak, way back when McClellan was giving briefings on it?

Since none of us were in the room, I venture to say that none of us know what Rove told Bush. (Most of us do not care much about this point, since unlike you, most of us do not stroke ourselves to sleep while fantasizing about sticking it to Rove. Why do you people have such a hard-on for him, anyway?).

However, I am sure that, despite your total lack of knowledge of the facts, you will nevertheless assume the existence of whatever facts you need in order to make yourself feel better about the political conclusion you have already reached.

You, and all people like you, when faced with an open question, will fill in any and all gaps in the factual record with whatever fits your pre-conceived conclusions and biases.

Some of us might recognize this process as the opposite of logical reasoning, but you probably will not.

T.O. is exactly who they deserve in Philadelphia. I actually feel sorry for McNabb. But...fuck 'em.

Go Falcons!

Tubino,

Valerie Plame was not an intelligence officer, she was an analyst who had been an officer a long time ago. By definition she can't be an agent, since that would be a foreigner working for the CIA. Get your shit straight.

She clearly wasn't covert. That is simply a fact. The Washington Post ran a story a few years ago about real covert operatives retiring and then telling their families that they used to be CIA intelligence officers. Their families, even their wives, had, by and large, no clue whatsoever. In the case of Valerie, it seems a lot of people knew she worked for the CIA and this filtered through to the media. Truly covert people wouldn't be known even as employees of the CIA.

I don't know if the career bureaucrats in the CIA are intentionally undermining the President. But I do know that bureaucrats will routinely oppose policy (i.e. the Foreign Service) and this usually manifests itself in leaks. So, I think the jury is still out on this one.

Tubino wrote:

...it's pretty funny that the initial part of the scheme is 1) Wilson writes op-ed...

The initial part of the scheme was the selection of an unqualified nincompoop for a mission which had a predetermined conclusion.

"...and WH admits using debunked evidence with uranium claim. That's a covert operation??? Getting the WH to admit a MISTAKE?"

You are misinformed. The WH said they should not have used it because it was not US intel. It was not debunked, least of all by Wilson. The CIA says his report tended to confirm the original intel, not debunk it. The original source, British intelligence, continues to stand by the intel you imagine has been debunked.

But it gets better. The evil CIA -- according to you moonbats -- tricked Rove, Bolton, Cheney, Ari Fleischer, Libby et al, into revealing classified information!

Is there any factual support for such hysteria? Has anyone been charged with revealing classified information?

And according to the covert plan, a CIA asset was compromised, and eventually an independent prosecutor (after the CIA used mind-control rays beamed into the WH to get Ashcroft to recuse himself!) was named! And then Scooter made up a whole fake story, which doesn't hold up -- so it must be a CIA COVERT OP! Brilliant!

What a mess. No CIA asset was compromised. Ashcroft recused and the IP was chosen out of an excess of propriety. Libby's 'whole fake story' consists of maintaining that he didn't remember hearing about Plame from Cheney. This has yet to go to trial, and we'll see whether it holds up or not.

Well I, for one, am OUTRAGED that the right wing is trying to destroy the press's cherished right to destroy our national security apparatus. I mean, Daniel Ellsberg must be spinning in his grav--oh...never mind.

To derail the discussion here...

Brown Line:
The U.N., simply put, can't take control of the Internet. Even if they somehow magically forced ICANN to hand over the root server IPs, there's no way to force people to use them. Someone can simply set up another root. There already are alternate Internet roots, in fact; most people just don't use them.

Also, DNS is only one part of the Internet. If worse comes to worse, we could always use IP addresses.

Spin this bitches, since some trolls have decided just to repeat themselves, I figured I would give it a try:

T.O. is simply a young man who comes from an economically deprived background. Its like he's saying, "I'm here, I exist." Ace and other tard commenters ignore, because they have no cultural awareness, that their hatred towards TO is a sign of the cultural gap that they are not willing to unilaterally take all the steps to bridge. Probably because they are all secretly gay for TO.

When I listen to TO trash his wealthy, upper-class teammates like McNabb or fight with fomer teammates, many of whom tended towards violent tackles on the field, like Douglas, I see a lot of rage, a lot of burning, a dramatic demand for recognition underscores the chasm between T.O. and other players who arrive in the NFL from priveleged backgrounds. That is why he identifies with fellow players on other teams who come from underprivileged backgrounds of poverty, with few options to ever succeed, like Brett Favre.

I see TO as one of my kids, and like him I understand that, with respect to the NFL fat cats, "There's no way of getting their attention. The only way to communicate is by burning teammates."

That's cute that the UN wants to take control of the Internet. scary, but cute. Them and what army? Does this mean they are finally going to help that guy in Nigeria get his money out of that country?

"Toensing does not have access to Fitzgerald's evidence. Toensing does not have access to Fitzgerald's evidence. Toensing does not have access to Fitzgerald's evidence. Toensing does not have access to Fitzgerald's evidence. Toensing does not have access to Fitzgerald's evidence."

You know, tubino, I wasn't persuaded by this sentence the first time I read it. But after reading it four more times in quick succession, it became dramatically more plausible. Thank you, sir!

Actually, I agree with you to a large extent: I don't think the CIA was actively subverting Bush's foreign policy, whoever did leak Plame's identity should be punished if he/she had any notion of her job, and that Fitzgerald may still have some blockbuster evidence he's waiting to reveal.

And I still think you're obnoxious, rude, conspiratorial, and dishonest. T.O., is that you?

Notice how I get you dummies to dance from my puppet strings by harping the same points over and over?

Dance, monkeys, dance!

Up here in Canadia, we have nothing better to do other than think we are superior to Americans and troll their blogs.

Amazing how many of you fall for my crap even though you know better.

Observe: I'll rant about how Wilson was wronged and impeachment is imminent. Then, you hosers will respond and make me laugh, laugh, laugh.

Hee hee

Ha

Hee hee

When will you finally catch on that I am simply an asshole looking to push buttons and get a rise out of people? Good thing I have that stupid Ace posting a continous stream of Wilson threads. Thanks, Ace.

I can't think of any world class jerks playing any other position than WR, why is that?

The biggest all time jerk in the NFL was QB Jeff George. Nobody compares.

Look you guys, you have gone too far. Tubino may be a cosplay democrat, regaling us with his Dungeon Master manual for an assault on the Astral Plane of White House, using the amulet of Fitzgerald, cloaked in the armor of the most holy indictment.

But, don't stoop to call him a Canadian. There are some things that are just too low.

Toobeano,

You forgot the hysterical CAPITAL LETTERS!!!! And the frantic PUNCTUATION!!!!???!!! And what about the repetition????!!!! Did YOU forget the REPETITION!!!??!!!???

Where is the French Army? Why are they not restoring order with Tanks? What is it with the French that they are cowering before mobs of Islamic scum? Are they waiting for the Germans or us to come in and do the dirty work for them (again?).

I have little love for the French, but allowing Muslim gangs to establish an outpost of the calipahte in the heart (or at least the rump) of Europe would be a major strategic problem for us.

I would love to see the French army rounding up all their muslims and executing the men, raping the women to teach them a lesson, and deporting them back to their third world hellholes.

I'm waiting for the "football assholes = wide receivers" theory explained.

Anybody? I don't know enough about football to make a guess.

Toensing does not have access to Fitzgerald's evidence. Toensing does not have access to Fitzgerald's evidence. Toensing does not have access to Fitzgerald's evidence. Toensing does not have access to Fitzgerald's evidence. Toensing does not have access to Fitzgerald's evidence.

He didn't forget the REPETITION!!!??!!!????

I don't remember Jeff George running over a meter maid. But then again, leadership is overrated. leadership is overrated.

Bill Romanowski is in the same league as Jeff George.

Rae Lewis is a jerk.
Rob whathisname, the former Bills QB, was a jerk.

There are many jerks in the NFL, and a shitload of jerks in the NBA and MLB.

There are many jerks in the NFL

While that is true, many of the other jerks were at least team players. Most of the wide receiver jerks seem to care about nothing but themselves.

Whats up with these riots, are they really that bad? How many people got killed in LA in the 90's? So far only 1 person dead? What are they just attacking parking lots?

Dang, come back here a couple of hours later and we're STILL not talking about hot professional cheerleader on cheerleader
action....

I remember when this blog was all about the kinky sex, man!

Thanks google! Wide receivers are jerks, and here are the theories as to why.

Yeah, kinky sex and geek games.
Lesbians, apparently they can't shut tubby up.

But thanks to moonbats like Tubby here we have to talk about how the French keep trying to fuck us over.

Scott,

There's lots of egotistical jerks in the NFL. I agree that they tend to be WR's, but there are plenty of them who play other positions. On the other hand, there are several WR's I could point to who are indeed, "team players."

I don't remember Randy Moss ever cheering on the sidelines when his replacement threw an interception.

I read an interesting thing about why no receivers are team leaders, but it may explain why so many receivers are assholes, too.

Basically-- unlike virtually every other position, the receiver position is basically a one-man effort. It's just not a position where teamwork is very important.

No running back can forget his line, his fullback, his tight end blocking for him. Or, for that matter, his QB using play action passes to help the run work.

No lineman can forget he's part of a unit.

No one on defense is under the illusion that they alone can shut down an offense. Either the defense works together -- everyone stays on their assignments, in their lanes, does their jobs -- or they get beat badly.

But receivers are basically in a one-on-one effort with the cornerback (and safety) covering them. Apart from the QB delivering the ball to them, it's not a team position.

Randy Moss notoriously admitted he didn't even bother to run as hard as he could when he wasn't one of the top two reads on a pass play.

Sure, there's some minor teamwork as receivers attempt, in cooperation, to exploit the seams and shifting assignments in coverage, but it's mostly a position of individual effort.

There are lots of douchebags in the NFL -- posters have named some good ones -- but you can't help but notice that some of the guys most poisonous to team morale are receivers. Keyshawn, Moss, Owens.

And, while I like Chris Collingsworth, I have to tell you, he seems like a real dick.

Hey I like kinky lesbian cheerleaders as much as the next guy. More even. And damn do I miss Tampa. More alcohol, pork products and houses of sin than you can shake a scimitar at.

72 virgins...bah! Give me Tampa during Super Bowl week. Tampa Akbar!

Not strictly the Plame game (unless you are a moonbat demonstrating typical loss of focus), but interesting thoughts about the French angle on the Nigerien unranium deal here.

And let's not forget that one one thing Wilson actually DID learn was that Iraq had indeed been making overtures in 1999. But most analysis were certain that the uranium was save because the French would never risk doing business with Hussein.

As with the WMD issue, all we have so far for the Niger connection is an absence of evidence which is being fallaciously foisted as evidence of absence.

One more time:

Not strictly the Plame game (unless you are a moonbat demonstrating typical loss of focus), but interesting thoughts about the French angle on the Nigerien unranium deal here.

And let's not forget that one one thing Wilson actually DID learn was that Iraq had indeed been making overtures in 1999. But most analysis were certain that the uranium was save because the French would never risk doing business with Hussein.

As with the WMD issue, all we have so far for the Niger connection is an absence of evidence which is being fallaciously foisted as evidence of absence.

Need a laugh? Click here and laugh at a Canadian fag.

http://www.freethought.ca/archives/000625.php

Looks like Toobino finally got his own blog.

Battle of the Pyramids:

sshhhhhhhhhh. Take it elsewhere.

Looks like Toobino finally got his own blog

Is he the debate club loser, or the ... other debate club loser?

Should Karl Rove STILL have his security clearance?

What will we tell the kids?

Oh -- not ONE person can answer if they think Rove told Bush the truth?

What a wimpy bunch you are.

Too stupid: "As with the WMD issue, all we have so far for the Niger connection is an absence of evidence which is being fallaciously foisted as evidence of absence."

We have 500+ tons IN IRAQ, idiot.

More would have done nothing.

And that's just for starters. Why don't you READ THE FUCKING REPORTS.

Then try to get joeindc44 to read the fucking reports. Good luck!

What will we tell the kids?

Oh -- not ONE person can answer if they think Rove told Bush the truth?

What a wimpy bunch you are.

I'm afraid I have no connections with Miss Cleo, to help her, "divine," what went on in privacy.

"We have 500+ tons in Iraq, idiot."

You mean 500+ tons of the stuff that you claim Saddam had no intention of using? No, Tubester, it is you who are the idiot.

Let's see, shall we keep track of the personal insults Tubester---

"wimpy," "stupid," " idiot," and then the clincher, the word, "fucking," used not once, but twice! Wow! What an unbelievably convincing debate strategy! I'm underwhelmed by your brilliant use of junior high insults!

Janny:

From the Butler report:

Some unprocessed uranium ore was left in country, but under IAEA safeguards and subject to regular inspections. Iraq would therefore have had to seek imports of uranium or uranium ore if it wished to restart its nuclear programme covertly.

Iraq had the stockpiles, but they were sewn up by the IAEA, and therefore useless.

More would have done nothing.

And yet they came looking for more in 1999 by Wison's own account.

Idiot.

Point taken, Geoff. However, now I'm being informed by the tin-foil brigade that the Butler Report has been, "discredited." Which, of course, is code for, "We have discarded it because it contains information that does not conform to our pre-conceived conclusions."

The crux of the matter, though, is that the claim has been made that there was no potential nuclear threat from Iraq. Now, one of the same needle-dicks who claims that Saddam was not a nuclear threat is now claiming that Saddam had no need to seek uranium because he already had it!

There is just no getting through to these folks, is there?

See, I told you guys not to accuse tubino of being canadian. Now he is all pissed at me. I think I missed the point he is making at 5:20, so this may not even be on point.

But since he can just repeat himself, I can repost what I wrote about the Butler report,

some clueless goof in WSE thread:

"Bush went ahead and used this cheap forgery as exhibit A in his case for war, against the advice of the CIA"

Some really funny and smart dude responded:

Bush said "“The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa .” "

This claim was not based on the forged documents or US sources, but on allied sources who still stand beside the reports. You have the senate report linked to earlier that supports that, as well as the Butler report,

Butler Report: "t is accepted by all parties that Iraqi officials visited Niger in 1999. The British Government had intelligence from several different sources indicating that this visit was for the purpose of acquiring uranium. Since uranium constitutes almost three-quarters of Niger’s exports, the intelligence was credible."

Someone also wrote:

Ok, that thingy I linked to was a Senate report on prewar intelligence. Sorry for that crazy link earlier, here’s an easier one: http://intelligence.senate.gov/iraqreport2.pdf

The Wash Post gives a summary here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A39834-2004Jul9.html

The panel found that Wilson's report, rather than debunking intelligence about purported uranium sales to Iraq, as he has said, bolstered the case for most intelligence analysts. And contrary to Wilson's assertions and even the government's previous statements, the CIA did not tell the White House it had qualms about the reliability of the Africa intelligence that made its way into 16 fateful words in President Bush's January 2003 State of the Union address.
Yesterday's report said that whether Iraq sought to buy lightly enriched "yellowcake" uranium from Niger is one of the few bits of prewar intelligence that remains an open question. Much of the rest of the intelligence suggesting a buildup of weapons of mass destruction was unfounded, the report said.
The report turns a harsh spotlight on what Wilson has said about his role in gathering prewar intelligence, most pointedly by asserting that his wife, CIA employee Valerie Plame, recommended him.
Plame's role could be significant in an ongoing investigation into whether a crime was committed when her name and employment were disclosed to reporters last summer.

The report may bolster the rationale that administration officials provided the information not to intentionally expose an undercover CIA employee, but to call into question Wilson's bona fides as an investigator into trafficking of weapons of mass destruction. To charge anyone with a crime, prosecutors need evidence that exposure of a covert officer was intentional.

The report states that a CIA official told the Senate committee that Plame "offered up" Wilson's name for the Niger trip, then on Feb. 12, 2002, sent a memo to a deputy chief in the CIA's Directorate of Operations saying her husband "has good relations with both the PM [prime minister] and the former Minister of Mines (not to mention lots of French contacts), both of whom could possibly shed light on this sort of activity." The next day, the operations official cabled an overseas officer seeking concurrence with the idea of sending Wilson, the report said.
Wilson has asserted that his wife was not involved in the decision to send him to Niger. "

You guys remember in "any given sunday," when LL Cool J was a RB, and he was a jerk. Yeah, that was cool.

Did Rove lie to Bush? I dunno, what has been asserted?

I figure that Rove would tell the guy the truth so he would not hurt Bush. Rove probably also talked to a lawyer who read the relevant law and then correctly determined that the only legal jeopardy he really would be in, if the left wing stories were true, is if he lied under oath. So, i dunno, drop the shoe, whatcha got?

As for Joey W, I think its pretty funny that his name dropping at Fox lead another guest to say that all JW does is talk about his secret agent wife. If he does sue the general for slander, he'll have to go under oath. That would be cool.

Then there were the amicus briefs filed for Judith Miller arguing that there was no underlying crime because Plame's id was blown years ago. An oldie but a goodie.

Tubino,

Do you have a link to someone in the CIA saying that Plame was covert? I've been asking around for this in various forums for a while and have yet to find one.

I'll go ahead and throw this out there: if Plame was indeed covert, and Rove knew she was covert, he should be fired, even though this may or may not be criminal. As I've come to understand the law, in order for it to be broken, the identity of a covert agent must be revealed by someone with malicious intent. I am amazed that it is not illegal to reveal a covert agents identity "accidentally" or without malice.

However, like I said, I have never heard anyone with any credibility say that Plame was covert. And by credibility, I mean an "I am with the CIA, and know of WTF I speak" kind of person.

Are you ready for some football?!!!
My prediction:
Colts 38
Pats 24

More football news:

The Eagles have announced that Terrell Owens will be out for the rest of the year with an enlarged, inflamed sphincter.

Do you have a link to someone in the CIA saying that Plame was covert? I've been asking around for this in various forums for a while and have yet to find one.

No. All I know is that Fitzgerald had a special closed session to exchange the information. It seems likely to me that she does NOT fit the very stringent requirements for Toensing's law to apply -- but *I* can't know, and neither can she. To know either way, the CIA would have to open up about how they use NOCs - a point so obvious I'm amazed it has to be pointed out.

What is clear is that Fitz's evidence convinced a judge and grand jury of the seriousness of the crime, enough to put Miller in jail etc. And no one disputes (okay, a few dead-enders) that revealing classified info is still a crime.
------------------------
You all are in a twist about the 1000 steps needed to convert uranium oxide into a weapon. Now geoff seems content with the pre-9-11 point that Saddam was contained:

Iraq had the stockpiles, but they were sewn up by the IAEA, and therefore useless.

Finally getting the point. Saddam was contained. Which I expect him to forget when it's convenient.

You want an intel case? Try the Chalabi case!

joeindc44, Josh Marshall has a quick point about why this new 'Democrats-said' talking point is BS.

He also points out that that there is an interesting dispute about the Senate Intel committee actually, um, INVESTIGATING anything during an investigation.

If you're going to investigate how policy-makers used intelligence, can there be any serious pretense that you're conducting a serious investigation if interviewing the policy-makers themselves is off-limits?

Republican oversight. For me the emblematic action was the quiet removal from Iraq a year ago (but only reported recently) of those icky auditors and oversight folks. Apparently, as folks like geoff thought the money was being handled so well, it only made sense to remove the last remnants of oversight. /snark
ONLY REPUBLICANS WOULD DO THIS.

Lots to watch there.

You mean 500+ tons of the stuff that you claim Saddam had no intention of using?

Doesn't matter what he INTENDED. What matters is what he could do.

In ten years, he could do nothing. If we gave him more time?

Nothing * infinity = nothing.

What the repubs want you to forget is that the UN inspectors were on the ground, determining that Saddam didn't have squat, and that the US intel was bogus.

That means that all the Repubs and Dems who were taken in by bad intel might have learned the truth.

The votes that gave Bush the power to enact war were based on an honest assessment.

An honest assessment by inspectors on the ground was not permitted, and the truth didn't come out till after the invasion.

And what are we talking about with Wilson, anyway? If you read the reports, you'll see why the idea that Saddam could purchase a significant amount of add'l uranium oxide from a poor country like Niger, and not have anyone notice the add'l mining activity, shipping, not notice it entering Iraq, and then not notice the first steps to converting it to weapons use...

Even with Republican oversight, such a thing would not be possible. Could anyone take it seriously as a threat?

But we're talking about people who apparently believed, or at least argued before others, that Saddam's ultralight gliders could pose a transatlantic threat.

Yet the basic story about uranium oxide is a crock, and doesn't warrant all the reaction. The original story about the Niger forgeries, that they were merely produced by a forger to make a buck, is falling apart. Judging from all the spinning, stabbing, sliming, and outright criminal activity, it's hard to believe the admin doesn't see a lot more at stake here than the validity of the claim itself.

I'm having a hard time not thinking the Cheney administration isn't extremely protective of how the bogus intel was accepted by the B-team WHIG and OSP gang.

Hence all the nonstop smokescreening.

And that's why Reid was right to push Roberts to produce a Phase II report.

Dance, my monkeys, dance.

I push your buttons and you dance for me, my little puppets. My little Pavlov dogs.

Pretty soon the mere mention of C-I-A will send you all into madness. The repitition of the same argument would drive anyone insane. You're halfway there.

Ouch, its kinda imtimidating to argue with the "if I wish something to be true hard enough, it will be true" that Marshall uses. As for your point about the Senate investigating investigations, I guess I will have to link to something with the requisite firepower to counter it, so I call on my pet cat, who agrees with me that the Senate knows more than you do.

I am sure that there is some law that says that talking about classified information is illegal, I would like to see that law because I am sure that is couched in terms to keep it constitutional for not being vague or overbroad. My pet dog told me that the mainstream press has relied on leaks of classified, secret and other types of information for years. He would be very upset if that suddenly stopped. Using occlumency, my goldfish tells me that Fitzgerald's monkey circus must have found something interesting enough to go for 2 years, only he chose to charge libby because he said that Russert knew that Plame was a CIA agent, when Russrt disputes that.

Well, if Josh Marshall says the Clintons didn't mean it when they said Saddam had weapons then it must be true. Even though he gives not a single justification for his opinion he has convinced me that when the Clintons said it and when Kerry said it and when Reid said it they didn't mean the same thing.

So when Josh adroitly switches tracks to the supposed claims of Saddam being behind 9-11, I just follow along like a fucking lemming and dismiss the incredible hypocrisy the Democrats are displaying Now vs. Then. Because I am Josh's intellectual bitch.

Don't you just love it when the 'bats link to someone else's opinion as though that somehow proves something?

Didja guys hear that Congress is gonna try to get some sort of criminal investigation going to deal with the recent leak of CIA operatives and operations by the Washington Post.

I predict, using the wish=reality engine that powers some the ARBCos dems that nest on these forums, that a criminal grand jury will be convened and within 3 weeks determine that Joe Wilson lied, and that Plame was a temp secretary for the CIA typing room, and that Porter Goss will be forced to fire every CIA adminstrator that has tried to damage the Bush administration. Also, the Wash Post and NYT's will be fined $10million a piece for distributing classified information, which I say is also a crime.

Then, I can sit down, and type at my keyboard, "this time, the good guys won."

Don't you just love it when the 'bats link to someone else's opinion as though that somehow proves something?

Don't you just love it when the rightards can't muster the brain power to read and evaluate material on their own, without someone to help them with it?

Must be the big words. Case in point:

Well, if Josh Marshall says the Clintons didn't mean it when they said Saddam had weapons then it must be true.

Of course, the big words were too much for him. Marshall said nothing of the sort.

Apparently only repetition works on some of you.

Having intent doesn't equal having weapons.

Having capability to produce weapons doesn't equal having weapons.

Having weapons doesn't equal capability to deliver them across an ocean and deploy them against the US.

Conflating these differences to blur what someone said into some other meaning does not make your point. It shows a weakness of your argument or of your brain, or both.

The term "Weapons of Mass Destruction" is not of much use except to induce fear, i.e. as market-tested propaganda. If you want to make rational evaluations, skip the propaganda and look at bio, chem, and nuclear capabilities.

If you want to understand how the Cheney admin pushed beyond anything verifiable into sheer propaganda-land, you might as well look at Cheney's statements about nuclear capabilities. I do not think you can find a SINGLE Democrat who made anywhere near the claims Cheney did ("And we believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons."). If you can prove me wrong, I'll admit I'm wrong. See example below in bold. This is from a post by Kevin Drum. My emphasis in bold.

----------------------------------

MARKETING THE WAR....Did the Bush administration lie about WMD before the war? Did they misuse intelligence? This is a subject well worth investigating, but both sides ought to take a deep breath and try to bring a little honesty to the table before we all get buried in our own bloviating.

Liberals, for their part, need to accept the obvious: in 2002, virtually everybody believed Iraq had an active WMD program. The CIA believed it, as their October NIE made clear:

Baghdad has chemical and biological weapons....Iraq has maintained its chemical weapons effort, energized its missile program, and invested more heavily in biological weapons....has largely rebuilt missile and biological weapons facilities.... has begun renewed production of mustard, sarin, GF (cyclosarin), and VX....most elements are larger and more advanced than they were before the Gulf war.

The British believed the same thing. The Germans and French believed it. Former Clinton administration officials believed it. Lots of Democratic members of congress believed it. They were all wrong, it turned out, but they weren't lying. The simple fact is that virtually everyone who had access to the full range of classified intelligence at that point in time thought Iraq had an active WMD program. Scott Ritter is about the only exception.

But that's not the end of the story — and that's a very big "but." Conservatives are fond of reminding us that there were lots of reasons for the war, but the plain fact, as Paul Wolfowitz admitted two years ago, is that the war was marketed to the American public on the basis of Saddam and his WMD. On that score, conservatives need to face a few facts too. Here's a sampling:

* It's true that virtually everyone believed in 2002 that Saddam had an active WMD program or, at the very least, large stockpiles of existing WMD. But the Bush administration was repeating the exact same arguments about Saddam's WMD even in March 2003, when UN inspectors had been combing Iraq with the help of U.S. intelligence for three months and had found nothing. The evidence by that time suggested just the opposite of what we originally believed, but that prompted nothing from Bush supporters except heaps of abuse aimed at Hans Blix. The invasion went off as scheduled.

* Important areas of dissent were covered up in support of the administration's marketing effort. The most spectacular, of course, involved the existence of nuclear weapons programs, which the administration sold as unequivocal fact. "We know he has been absolutely devoted to trying to acquire nuclear weapons," Dick Cheney said shortly before the war started. "And we believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons."

But that wasn't true, and Cheney certainly knew it. There was virtually no serious evidence for an Iraqi nuclear program, and what little evidence there was had already been persuasively debunked. Both INR and the CIA knew that the African uranium story was bogus, and DOE experts knew that the infamous aluminum tubes were designed to be used in rockets, not as centrifuge tubes.

* Administration figures continually made sensationalistic claims in public that went well beyond what they could back up with real evidence. "We don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud," Condoleezza Rice told Wolf Blitzer ominously a few days before Bush's UN speech in 2002. "We know where they are," Donald Rumsfeld asserted flatly about Iraqi WMD even after the war. "There's overwhelming evidence there was a connection between al Qaeda and the Iraqi government," Dick Cheney said repeatedly both before and after the war. Colin Powell told the UN that Saddam's bioweapons program was active, advanced, and an absolute certainty. "These are sophisticated facilities," he said. "For example, they can produce anthrax and botulinum toxin. In fact, they can produce enough dry biological agent in a single month to kill thousands upon thousands of people."

* Even among people who believed Saddam had an active WMD program, there was little consensus that it actually posed a danger, something the administration never acknowledged. Even the CIA suspected Saddam would never use WMD unless he was attacked first, and in any case none of Saddam's weapons posed a realistic threat to the United States. The administration's absurd claims that Iraqi drones could attack the continental U.S. were debunked almost immediately by Air Force intelligence. Their dissent didn't make it into the public discourse until after the war, though.

So: Was there a widespread belief in September 2002 that Iraq had an active WMD program? Yes. Did the Bush administration nonetheless lie, exaggerate, and dissemble repeatedly about that program? Yes. Should conservatives be concerned about that? Yes. After all, the next president to market a war this way might not be a Republican. Conservatives should be as interested in learning the truth about this — and preventing it from happening again — as the rest of us.

joeindc44,

And what if you got your wish?

CNN is reporting that Trent Lott says the leak on the black ops CIA detention and torture facilities came from....erm...a GOP Senator.

Go figure. The real joke is that this is all a result of FRIST throwing a hissy fit.

Burn, baby, burn.

Hey, i just realized something. While Tubino has spent all day mouthing off on this blog, I was at the polls voting straight ticket Republican.

Heh.

Oh, and my wife voted straight R's, too.

Must suck to be Canadian.

I caught you and Drum in a lie. Why don't you go find the entire transcript of Cheney saying Saddam had reconstituted nuclear weapons. Read it. Come back here and post it. I fucking double-dog dare your punk ass. Highlight the part Drum quoted, if you're not too big a pussy.

Christ you people are predictable. You repeat the same things Drum and Soros tell you without checking it out yourself and then look like lying asswipes and you never even blush. If I had pulled that shit I wouldn't show my face around here again, but then I had a Dad who taught me right from wrong.

"To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just so long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one denies—all this is indispensably necessary." -- George Orwell

Thanks, spongey, I was dreading having to go dig up the whole quote.

As for the CNN report, egads, what is up with that? And here we thought that it was a CIA leak. I dunno Tubbs, that's kinda scary.

His source on that Lott claim has a track record that makes Krugman look like the Oracle of Delphi. Even so, I barely care if it's a GOP Senator who leaked it. If he's not with us, he's against us, y'know? To the gallows with him!