If we had wished the Iraq war over hard enough, we would have negotiated with the people who really matter: the French!

That's what all the talks with muslim "leaders" is all about: talk to the people who really don't have one iota of control over a situation, and make like that really matters.

If Islamists (radical, "moderate", or "mainstream") wish to exist in the world as it is today, they'd better listen up to the message that's being heard increasingly day by day. You can believe what you want, but as soon as you cross the line and start forcing others into the real slavery of your "religion of peace", you're gonna get your gonads stomped and you'll run out of virgins before you can enjoy them in your "Paradise".

Bottom line is, "Back off, suckers. This ain't Mohammed's world to screw around with, and it certainly ain't yours!"

As I understand it, in France certain ghettoes are allowed to have their own kind of 'law,' and police do indeed stay out, except for certain cases which unavoidably interest them.

So, they're already giving up territory. And this isn't like the Amish or the Native Americans in this country, who have legitimate land claims and rights to a degree of sovereignty.

This is just a bunch of, sorry, foreigners stealing what isn't theirs, and a nation willing to put up with extortion.

The sad irony is that the Europeans are facing the prospect of civil uprisings and (literal) race war that American extremists like the Black Panthers and Weathermen tried but failed to provoke in the 70's.

I wonder how American intellecuals who gleefully anticipated the 'rising of the street' in America will react to open civil strife in their European model societies.

I've have no sympathy for the French at all. Intifadas are real bitch, oiu? France has been shilling for Arafat for years precisely to keep their muslim population in check. They practically started the most recent antifada(in Israel) with their bogus staged video of palestinian boy being shot.

Fuck 'em.

Even though the French lionized Arafat, demonize Israel, and gloat over our social problems here in the US, I still wouldn't wish what's happening in France on anyone. I wonder if the Europeans have the will to save their own skin before it's too late.

So it seems the Arab street we were told would rise in rage is actually rising, in France, and Denmark.

That appeasement stuff isn't working out too well.

I think the factor that doesn't get mentioned enough is Europe's generous welfare state. These countries pay young Muslims to sit around and do nothing, which at the same time strips them of their dignity as breadwinners and gives them the leisure time to sit around and fester and become radicalized. France, the Scandinavian countries and the rest are in a sense subsidizing their own destruction. I really believe that if had American-style welfare reform, within 10 years would most of their inner-city problems would go away.

I await the headline that blames America's occupation of Iraq as the root cause of their anger.

They have these banlieu riots every couple of years. Nothing new here, though I admit the problem is getting worse.

Mmmm. Love that Fun Pizza.

Will there ever by the equivalent of a Pearl Harbor in this war? How many 9/11s have to happen before the allies come together, unified and destroy the enemy?

I wonder how long it will be before France starts mass deportations of troublesome immigrant populations?

And don't thnk they're not capable of it. We may laugh at those cheese-eating surrender monkeys, but you don't want to mess with the French national security apparatus. Mais oui, they're tough SOBs and they don't put up with any sh*t. Just ask Greenpeace

Um, watch the "Fuck 'em" double standard here. The enemy isn't the French, it is the finatical Muslims that Ace has identified as trying to usurp authority from those that govern the land, to their own law. Chirac is a jackass, but guys like Sarkozy are trying to deal with the problem now.

I strongly disagree with many of the French positions on fighting terrorism abroad, however, we had some pretty soft responses for terrorism prior to 9-11 too. That doesn't mean we were at fault, and I was just as harsh in my criticisms on the same grounds of the French who said "Fuck 'em" to us in response.

Fanatical Islam is the enemy, and the more we degrade ourselves, even those irritating Western countries that still don't have a grip on the stakes involved, the harder it is going to be for us to win this thing.

"Fuck(ing) em" aint going to help. Especially if they don't shave their legs first.

An overwhelming number of Parisians hate the Muslims who live in the cités just outside Paris. This is a cultural clash. Most Muslims are from Algeria and came to work in the industrial centers around Paris, which have now closed shop. The relationship between France and Algeria was, well you know, horrendous (bloody bloody conflict). What's happened in the last several years is a policy by the French government to stay out of all cultural issues concerning Muslims, (i.e. domestic violence in the cités for instance). In fact, several years ago the French government began funneling money to Muslim organizations within the cités so that they would police themselves with the money. Here's the rub: Journalists have traced the money to radical Islamic groups. Besides that-Some of the self-regulation of the cités includes drastic measures against women, especially women who are entering puberty and are ready for marriage. Several young girls have been burned to dealth for refusing to marry or travel to Algeria for marriage. This is just a small part of what is happening in France, regarding its "Muslim" problem. This is (one reason) why, I would argue, France decided to stay out of the war. But it looks like their powder keg is exploding anyway.

"Um, watch the "Fuck 'em" double standard here. The enemy isn't the French, it is the finatical Muslims that Ace has identified as trying to usurp authority from those that govern the land, to their own law. Chirac is a jackass, but guys like Sarkozy are trying to deal with the problem now. "

Naww - Fuck 'em all - the French think that they can selectively crack down at home while felating the regimes and terrorists that inspire this shit. They are throwing their "friends" to the croc in the hopes that it eats them last.

If Islam was behaving as poorly in the tenth century as they are in these times, is it any wonder that the Crusades occured?

I guess they didn't learn, the first time around.

TF6S wrote many fair and logical points. My reply is still Fuck 'em. I would have worked in the word schadenfrued in my original post if I had a clue how to spell it and any inclination to look up the word. The French may not be your enemy but they've been my people's enemy for thousands of years (OK maybe just a thousand years). The current French gov't has been tolerating and stoking anti-semetism for years to avoid their own muslim problem. Fat load of good it did for them.

I do have some sympathy for the Danes but its been a long time since anyone has paid them Danegold.

" you don't want to mess with the French national security apparatus"

Too true. Especially the soldier/cop/paramilitary types who check the buses coming from Amsterdam.

Trust me on this one.

Maybe this will take some of the heat off of Oriana Fallaci, who's due for trial next summer.

Another vote for fuck 'em.

France was as duplicitous as any country or group in the years of the Oil for Food debacle and the leading member of the Security Council roadblock prior to the Iraq war. If they had stood with us and actually helped enforce the very sanctions they helped craft (by the by the REAL justification for the current war) then there would have been a much better chance we could have avoided the war altogether. But no. Their smary oh so condescending lecturing of the US/UK position re: Saddam helped split world opinion and probably cost US lives.

Let's not forget it was Chirac who sold Saddam his first reactor prompting an appropriate although highly condemed reaction from the Israelis, a few well placed rockets. This action helped demonize Israel in the eyes of the multi-culturalists, the French and of course escalated tensions with Iraq including Saddam's financing and rewarding of suicide bombers in Israel.

Yes indeed, fuck the Fench and no cuddling afterward. Perhaps a few months of the results of appeasement well help them remember that bony thing running from their neck to the top of their ass is called a backbone.

I just want to comment that I am in no ways condoning any of the French policies or strategies in fighting terrorism. I am strongly against how they've conducted themselves so far, and I think the French are worse off, and making the fight against terrorism harder for all of us.

However, geeze guys, the Islamic nutters are the ones ultimately responsible for this mess. If you take the "Fuck 'em they brought this on themselves" approach, than you can't make the "they don't hate us for what we do, but for who we are" argument anymore. The Islamic Fascists aren't just attacking America, they are attacking non-fanatics around the world, and yes it is because of who they are too. French policies have made them more vulnerable to attack, but ultimately, the Islamists are the ones conducting the violence.

For the record, I can't bloody believe that I am defending the damn French...

Yes, but remember, the French bloodied Algeria. They hate Algerians. And most of their Muslim population- let me restate, most of their unemployed, unemployable, Muslim population, is from Algeria. They've used a "hands off" approach to problems within the Muslim community (living in the projects or cités as they are called) in part because they do NOT want to mainstream Muslims into their culture. Between the two, we will continue to find metal sparking on metal.

TF6S:

I admire that you can place the French Intifada in the proper context with war against Islamic extremism (or whatever they call it now a days). I can't. After years of reading about Jewish cemetaries being defaced and Jewish youths being attacked in France with the tacit aproval by the French gov't("what can you expect with how horrible Israel treats le palestinians"), I have very little sympathy left for France. France has been doing what every 2bit ME dictator has been doing for the last 50 years, blaming the Jews/Israel for their own problems to keep all hell from breaking loose. Never again? More like never again until we have an un-assimilated radical muslim immigrant problem to deal with. Fuck 'em.

I'm all for the fuck 'em line too.

And I'm getting tired of this idea of the "moderate" vs. radical muslim. They all believe the same thing! The "moderates" are just more patient. They still want you infidels dead. They're just not ready to put their asses on the line.

Iblis,

Then what in the hell are we doing trying to build Iraq then?

If this blows into the Eurabian civil war, Milosovic may be remembered by history as a European leader who was ahead of the curve. A horrible thought, really.

I'll take a shot at that TF6S. I think we are trying to create what really doesn't exist today. A country which is both Islamic and moderate.

Some are quick to deny it but most democracies today are in fact of the Judeo/Christian origin. In many ways I think you can trace the moderation of both Christianity and Judiasm to their existence within democracies. That is the "laws" of the religions can co-exist and be tempered by the laws of democracy. Respect for the individual, for concepts such as majority rule, freedom of the press and thought, these things are allowed to thrive in a democracy. They can shine a light on religious intolerance and bring it to heel.

Christianity was allowed to run rampant during the time of monarchies when kings made side deals with the church to gain its support. The Middle Ages are replete with examples of this. Will it work with Islam? Who knows. But leaving it alone has clearly not worked and won't work.

My thoughts anyway.

In Iraq we're setting the conditions that will be more favorable to fostering our philosophy.
For various reasons we're not allowed to kill 'em all, so we have to persuade and dare I say convert them from their misguided faith.
One of the requisits for a free society is the free exchange and debate of ideas and ideals. In Iraq we're setting the ground work for that.
Iraq also servers to undermine their moral in a similar vein to how the press and terrorists work to undermine our morale.

TF6S,

I see what you're trying to say, and to a certain degree you're right, the Islamists are the enemy and source of the problem. But you are definitely understating France's role here.

It would be one thing, if we were talking about an ineffectual country like, say, Monaco or Luxembourg, that has a history of making fun of our problems. After all, such countries could only talk. But it is completely different when we're talking about France.

Surprisingly, France, although a shadow of its former imperial self, does have a fairly active diplomatic service which works to directly undermine US foreign policy, often with some success. Much of it was used when the US was looking for UN Security Council support and Turkey's permission to allow the 4th ID to launch a ground invasion into the north of Iraq. Turkey's refusal, done at least partially at the behest of France, probably cost us the decisive victory over the Baathists that would have saved lives in the long run. Instead, the Baathists dissolved themselves into the population and so we get a long, drawn-out insurgency campaign.

So you see, the "Fuck 'em" sentiment has substantial justification. France's actions often lead to American deaths.

In fairness, we apparently do get good intelligence support from them, at least with regards to terrorism, but from a geopolitical perspective we need to treat them as an unreliable opportunist.

Eric,

I completely agree with the fact that France has been a geopolitical enemy. Their ideology is based on the West in general, or democracy, but around trying to preserve and expand everything French.

Their behavior has been one of holding onto a Tiger by its tail. They've actively supported the Palestinian Intifada in addition to the prefidity with hindering our efforts in the Iraq War like you previously mentioned. If I was a French policy maker, I would be questioning the very policies that have led to prioritizing opposing American intrests over combating Islamists. There is so much perfidity around French policy right now, it is obscene (whether it be from kickbacks ala Saddam, or general ideological opposition). This has led to so many contradictions, it is amazing they can hold their country together.

But my point is, regardless of the French decision to hold on to the tail of the tiger, the tiger is still the killer.

There could be some light regarding the future with France here. While France is still very anti-American, they are still pro-France. Guys like Sarkozy have been gaining traction, and while we have a looog way to go before we're holding hands on a honeymoon (if at all), the swing in power towards guys like that can really be a positive development for us in the War on Terror.

For this reason, I'm not ready to Fuck the French, yet. I'm not advocating that we actually trust these people again, but they could be useful idiots for us for change.

Jack/Iblis:

Thanks for the thoughts. I don't think our thoughts are too far from each other's--we've just come to different conclusions.

...for now. ;-)

FUCK THE FRENCH: They collaborated with the Natzis in persecuting Jews and gave up Jews for slaughter in the concentration camps. FUCK THE FRENCH: They started the the modern history of political genocide in the French Revolution in the 1790's known as the "reign of terror"-- an idea and example which ultimately led to the Natzi death camps and the Russian gulags. FUCK THE FRENCH:They abandoned Nato in 1965 and declared their neutrality between the U.S. and the U.S.S.R. FUCK THE FRENCH: They sided with Mugabe (a dictator in Africa) as he slaughtered tens of thousands and starved millions of people. FUCK THE FRENCH: They profited in the oil for peace scam, esentially trading political protection for Saddam and his murderous regime for cheap oil. FUCK'EM IN THE MORNING, FUCK'EM IN THE EVENING, FUCK'EM AT SUPPER TIME EVERY DAY EXCEPT SUNDAY. DOUBLE FUCK'EM ON SUNDAY IN THE NAME OF THE LORD. P.S. If I had more time and energy I'd tell you what I really think of the French, but I'm so mellow today that I can hardly get started.

No, don't "f--- the French." They're not the enemy. Frenchies may be rude, smelly, hirsute, arrogant, insufferable, etc., but they're not the enemy. At least, not in this fight. Let's all go whack the Islamo nutters together and then afterwards we can concentrate on trashing the French.

The French have been an enemy for a very long time for all the reasons above and more. The fact that they are enemies of one of our other enemies does not make them allies.

As allies, they are useless. They have exactly zero ability to engage an enemy militarily. That's not slamming them as cowards; it's slamming them as impotent. Financial help? Please! Money is a big part of their problems.

France, like the other Euro states, is in demographic decline. But at the same time, they are hopelessly welded to socialist welfare schemes that almost no Euro is willing to cut. That means they (France, Germany, etc.) need immigrant armies to sustain what passes for their economies. Enter the Muslems with their very healthy birthrates - enough to overcome the various honor killings, suicide attacks and other self-destructive tendancies. The Euros do not have even the modest "courage" to make cuts to bloated state benefits that would free them from dependency on their latest conqueres.

In a world that is often selfish, shortsighted and cynical, the French epitomize these vices. If that were their only problem, I'd still be in favor of trying to help them anyway. But after basically passing to the United States the cost of their defense against murderous aggressors, now and in the Cold War, in order to better fund their "enlightened" Santa-state, they are also actively engaged in policies that run the full - classically French - spectrum from appeasement to collaboration. When they aren't placating our mutual enemies, they are giving them strength. The resurgence of anti-semitism among the French, and the other similarly afflicted Euros, speaks volumes.

France holds the tiger by the tail? Fine. And they think they will be able to prosper by ignoring or giving minor help to the tiger as it hunts. Their choice. But France is not a force for good in the world, it does nothing to further the interests of America or freedom, and it have repeatedly chosen to side with the tiger over its would-be rescuers.

If the tiger wants them, it can have them. France is not the heart of anything. Not even the tiger. And we will kill this tiger, with or without France in its digestive tract.

The short: They have made their own problems. They refuse to fix them because they would rather blame America/the Jooooos while counting on us to save them at our own expense. And what pitiful leverage they have tends to be set against us in the meantime.

For all I care, the Wahabbists can Skull.Fuck.France. And may that festering boil of a country prove as useful to them as it has to us.

VRWC,

Clearly if you had read my argument, you would see that at no point did I argue for France to be a "force for good." I'm not defending French policies, or them as a people, other than to show that the despicable behavior displayed by the Islamic radicals is the root of this problem.

My argument with everyone is to not take our eyes of the ball in gratuitous French bashing. Regardless of how poorly the French have handled themselves, and I've stated in each comment that they've done so poorly, the schmucks that are rioting are still rooted in an ideology that violently wants to get the rest of the world to submit to its will. I don't care about the French response, but I do care about the strength of a logical argument, which I make all the time, is one where the Islamists are doing this because of who we are (not Muslims), versus what we do.

We, in this case, does happen to include the French.

the schmucks that are rioting are still rooted in an ideology that violently wants to get the rest of the world to submit to its will. I don't care about the French response, but I do care about the strength of a logical argument

Fine. The logical argument is that losing France costs just about nothing. It removes an enemy and does not create a new one. Saving France means expending resources of one kind or another to keep one enemy from devouring another. If Islamofacists want France because they are trying to stick it to us or weaken western values, the joke's on them.

As I said before, the fact that they are (nominal) enemies of my enemies does not make them allies.

I see one, and only one, in France's favor: they are nuclear. Frankly, though, I don't see missles launching because of some Parisian fatwa in the foreseeable future. Just a lot of internal strife for one of the bad guys. I can live with that.

TF6S

I think what we're saying here is that in a fight between the islamo-nutters and the French, everyone's a winner, baby!

It's just like the old Iran-Iraq war - we can cheer for both sides - it's all good.

7 days and the French leftist/socialist/statist/liberal crowd hasn't surrendered? That's a record!

CARLOS IS MY BOY!

That's right. It's time to start stomping gonads like escargot, baby!

Travel Agents to Allah Unite!!!

As much fun as it is to bash the French, they have given a lot of behind the scenes help in the GWOT. That was my impression after reading Shadow Wars.

On the other hand, their whole economic system is based upon importing people to pay for their welfare state after their whole workforce retires at the age of 38. The flaw in this "plan" is that most of these imigrants seem to be less than enterprising, relying on the same welfare benefits that every other French fuck is relying upon. Oh, and they also hate everything about the country in which they now live.

Like most countries throughout history, they can either adapt or overcome. Charleslemange rose to kick out the moorish invaders, maybe this will happen again. Even the most decadent, understanding people can only take so much. Theo Van Gogh was killed a year ago, leading to Dutch crack downs in crazy Islamists. Maybe that reaction will be a trend.

Its like the current debate on coercive interogation. If there were 9/11's happening every month here, it would take 3 weeks before we started the old terrorist head on a spike program. but I digress.

Frenchie is either gonna live or die based on how they deal with these 8 million new citizens.

I just can't take the "f*ck 'em all" approach that Shtetl G does.

The Jewish hard-on for the French goes way back, and from the Shtetl G perspective it really doesn't matter what happens to France.

From his perspective I am sure it makes sense. The French are all goyim anyway (WWII, Dreyfus, etc.) and the ones that aren't goy can be moved to Israel , so at a gut level he figures "what's the loss if France burns up?" And from his perspective, what can you say? He is right.

As a Christian, though, I just can't get that enthusiastic about the destruction of France. A big part of my Christian andd Western religion, culture and civilization comes from France. You know? Everything doesn't boil down to Yasser Arafat.

I guess that's one big reason why I couldn't really join the Jonah Goldberg wing of the neocon party., even though I loath Islam.

But don't get me wrong. A man should be loyal to his people and his race. I do appreciate Shtetl G's commitment to his people, his nation. Its just that his people are just not my people, that's all.

John said it right at 9:20pm.
The fwench are at the very least enablers of the jihadis, and are at the core of anti-Americanism since the get-go. They jumped right in bed with Uncle Ho after they ran from Vietnam, in order to help us run away looking no better than them. They were at the forefront of the anti-American Soviet/Vietnamese propaganda campaign.
I've carried a sign since the beginning of the Iraq war that says
To Hell With Iraq, Nuke France
Their food is overrated, their wines suck.
The only thing that they do well is make cheese, but that's only because it's a spoiled stinky product.
Figures.

I'm sorry Ace, for the length of this one...

• The objects of which Paris folks are fond--literature, art, medicine and adultery." Mark Twain.
• "There is nothing lower than the human race except the French." Mark Twain.
• "French are the connecting link between man & the monkey." Mark Twain.
• "Trivial Americans go to Paris when they die." Mark Twain.
• "A dead Frenchman has many good qualities, many things to recommend him; many attractions--even innocencies. Why cannot we have more of these?" Mark Twain.
• "France has neither winter nor summer nor morals. Apart from these drawbacks it is a fine country. France has usually been governed by prostitutes." Mark Twain.
• "I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me." General George S. Patton.
• "Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordion." Norman Schwartzkopf.
• "We can stand here like the French, or we can do something about it." Marge Simpson
• "As far as I'm concerned, war always means failure" Jacques Chirac, President of France
• "As far as France is concerned, you're right." Rush Limbaugh,
• "The only time France wants us to go to war is when the German Army is sitting in Paris sipping coffee." Regis Philbin.
• "The French are a smallish, monkey-looking bunch and not dressed any better, on average, than the citizens of Baltimore. True, you can sit outside in Paris and drink little cups of coffee, but why this is more stylish than sitting inside and drinking large glasses of whisky I don't know." P.J O'Rourke (1989).
• "You know, the French remind me a little bit of an aging actress of the 1940s who was still trying to dine out on her looks but doesn't have the face for it." John McCain, U.S. Senator from Arizona.
• "You know why the French don't want to bomb Saddam Hussein? Because he hates America, he loves mistresses and wears a beret. He is French, people." Conan O'Brien
• "I don't know why people are surprised that France won't help us get Saddam out of Iraq. After all, France wouldn't help us get Hitler out of France either" Jay Leno.
• "The last time the French asked for 'more proof' it came marching into Paris under a German flag." David Letterman
• "Only thing worse than a Frenchman is a Frenchman who lives in Canada. " Ted Nugent.
• War without France would be like ... uh ... World War II.
• "The favorite bumper sticker in Washington D.C. right now is one that says 'First Iraq, then France.'" Tom Brokaw.
• "What do you expect from a culture and a nation that exerted more of its national will fighting against DisneyWorld and Big Macs than the Nazis?" Dennis Miller.
• "It is important to remember that the French have always been there when they needed us." -Alan Kent

And one final addition to John's comment:
In 1966, upon being told that Charles DeGaulle had taken France out of NATO and that all U.S. troops must be evacuated off of French soil, President Lyndon Johnson told Secretary of State Dean Rusk, "Ask him about the cemeteries Dean!" So at end of the meeting Rusk did ask DeGaulle if his order to remove all U.S. troops from French soil also included the 60,000+ soldiers buried in France from World War I and World War II. DeGaulle never answered. To this day, France is not a part of the NATO military structure, only the political.

Big Bill,

You deduced all that because Shtetl G is Jewish? Color me awed.

I'm Christian. I agree with him/her. PLEASE call me a race traitor or something. I hear I get a free T-shirt for that. (Can I choose the color? I don't want it to clash with my skin.)

A lot of French people are A-holes that hate Americans and all other English speakers, but remember that people of European descent must stick together in solidarity if we plan on defeating Islam. The rich Zionist, dual-National Israelis have promoted multiculturalism and open borders in our lands for several decades. Yet in Israel, non-jews are not permitted to stay for more than a few days, and can never live there or intermarry with a jew. Anyone see any hipocricy in that besides me?

Let's get this rising tide of Jihadists out of our territories and throw the Neo-Con Zionists out with them! They can sort out their own problems without our 3 to 5 billion a year in US tax-payers money!

A lot of French people are A-holes that hate Americans and all other English speakers, but remember that people of European descent must stick together in solidarity if we plan on defeating Islam. The rich Zionist, dual-National Israelis have promoted multiculturalism and open borders in our lands for several decades. Yet in Israel, non-jews are not permitted to stay for more than a few days, and can never live there or intermarry with a jew. Anyone see any hipocricy in that besides me?

Let's get this rising tide of Jihadists out of our territories and throw the Neo-Con Zionists out with them! They can sort out their own problems without our 3 to 5 billion a year in US tax-payers money!

7 days and the French leftist/socialist/statist/liberal crowd hasn't surrendered? That's a record!

To be fair, right now it's hard for them to locate someone in charge who can accept their surrender.

R. James: From one Euro-descended Christion to another, please feel free to take your "hipocricy"/Zionist claptrap back to DU or whatever circle of blog hell you are trying to vacation from, troll. The Left has always been a friend of totalitarianism and the natural allies of Nazis; their anti-semitism has been resurgent for a while now. You'll have fun there.

"I hate Internet Nazis."

imigrants atack France this is banal