Do you really want to watch Giuliani's private life get put through the thresher, Ace? I honestly think you'll lose social conservatives there.

Later,
bbeck

Eh. There is no such thing as a perfect candidate.

HA, nice dodge. :)

IF he got the Pub nomination, I'd be afraid some Pat Robertson type would run as an Indie and suck off the religious right vote.

Later,
bbeck

Why even waste time on this.
The chance of Giulani surviving the primary process is 0.
His stance on many positions makes him a better fit for the Democrat party.

He should run for senate.

"But many of us will take a practical look at him and at the office of President and ask, "How much could he hurt our cause?" The answer would be, "Not much."

You know i'm down, Ace. I keep saying Rudy Can't Fail - but the last week has shown us that "taking a pratical look" is something many conservatives are incapable of. If they turn down this opportunity, they deserve to lose.

bbeck: Rudy's personal life - he's been married thrice. And? Reagan was the first divorced president, and that turned out all right - Rudy could be the first twice-divorced President.

So they put a picture of him in a dress on the screen, and get the scary-bass voice saying "Rudy Giuliani does not support South Carolina values - and what kind of a name is Giuliani anyway?" I don't think people are that stupid.

We just gotta keep this momentum going til the primaries - in a hypothetical Rudy v. Hillary race, I'm confident in our boy.

Rudy could (not saying he *would*) win all 50 states. He poses a serious challenge to the Democrats' electoral solar plexus - NY, NJ, PA. What's not to like?

I could (I have elsewhere!) go on at great length about Rudy's potential to be a truly world-historical figure, but I should probably get my own blog for that.

"His stance on many positions makes him a better fit for the Democrat party."

BS. Rudy's got what we need. (And you say he's just a friend ... you say he's just a friend ....)

", I'd be afraid some Pat Robertson type would run as an Indie and suck off the religious right vote."

You know Robertson himself has already said he's fine with the concept of a President Giuliani, right?

The Democrats cannot win without NY, NJ, and PA.

The Democrats cannot win without NY, NJ, and PA.

The Democrats cannot win without NY, NJ, and PA.

The Democrats cannot win without NY, NJ, and PA.

The Democrats cannot win without NY, NJ, and PA.

The Democrats cannot win without NY, NJ, and PA.

The Democrats cannot win without NY, NJ, and PA.

Just thought I'd mention that.

If we are going to overlook " certain issues" with Rudy, as conservatives, then why not John McCain before Rudy? If you want me to look past Rudy on his stances on social issues, then I will ask you to look past McCain's campaign finance and compromises.

McCain is by far the better candidate. He is right on the social issues, but isn't seen as "religious" or is he beholden to the religious right. Which gives moderate Democrats a reason to vote for him. He doesn't have the VERY messy personal life that Rudy has either. Nor the mean past of NY politics. No one can argue his war on terror bonafides, being a war hero and all. He's got star power and he's more personable on camera than Rudy.

McCain has it WAY over Rudy. Sorry Ace.

rudycantfail.com not registered yet ...

bbeck: Rudy's personal life - he's been married thrice. And? Reagan was the first divorced president, and that turned out all right - Rudy could be the first twice-divorced President.

LOL, yeah, but Reagan didn't have any vindictive ex-wives running about trying to jam up his career. Don't get me wrong, I like the guy fine, but with the recent climate I do NOT think it's the time for a candidate who comes off as a moderate and alienates the base. But we ARE 3 years away.

If he got the nomination, I'd probably vote for him reluctantly...but not nearly as reluctantly as some of the other hopefuls right now.

Later,
bbeck

"he's more personable on camera than Rudy"

? In the eye of the beholder, I guess but McCain's always struck me as a wheezy goof. I respect his service and sacrifice, but I don't think he'd be as good a candidate *or* President.

McCain really is a "moderate," hugging the middle of the road. Rudy is a different animal - he seems to hold views that are pretty out there on both the right and the left. IOW, he can flip the electoral script. McCain is the obvious choice - Rudy is the bold choice.

So sayeth Knemon.

You know Robertson himself has already said he's fine with the concept of a President Giuliani, right?

Mr. Robertson says a lot of things I believe to be BS.

And I'm sorry, I wouldn't vote for McCain because he's a nutcase.

Later,
bbeck

"If he got the nomination, I'd probably vote for him reluctantly...but not nearly as reluctantly as some of the other hopefuls right now."

Good enough! bbeck, I love you , and I want to have your baby.

Tell you what, I'll even drop the pretense and agree that Miers isn't really qualified. Time to heal the divisions and start PIMPING GIULIANI LIKE THERE'S NO TOMORROW.

If he could flip CA, all is forgiven.

I'm not saying it's going to be an easy sell ...

“I’m pro-choice. I’m pro-gay rights,” Giuliani said. He was then asked whether he supports a ban on what critics call partial-birth abortions. “No, I have not supported that, and I don’t see my position on that changing,” he responded.
Source: CNN.com, “Inside Politics” Dec 2, 1999

Hey, Bush's dad flipped on abortion. (And he was such a political success! ... what?)

It isn't personal to me. I just want a candidate who can beat the SHE MONSTER. That is ALL THAT matteres to me.

I just think McCain is the only one who can do it.

I don't think it can happen unless Bush can make things right on judges before primary season. He's very, very far from that now.

McCain!? When's he ever made a high-profile decision that went against MSM interests? We need to fight them, not kiss up to them.

A side thing about Rudy is that he'd give great press conference. A Rumsfeldian contempt for stupidity... except from the President. Now that would be fun.

someone,

No, this isn't about the media. It's about beating the SHE MONSTER and that is all it's about.

Remember it's the "soccor moms," "security moms" ect.. that really decide elections. It's women like me (except I am nothing like them) who do vote in great numbers but decide purely on a emotional basis.

Do you think they are going to vote for a guy who publically humilated his WIFE???? Who cheated on her while he was mayor and they had a young son together???

They are NOT my ace friends, they simply will not.

The Village Idiot is right. Rudy doesn't have a shot.

The guy has a fucking lisp, for pete's sake.

Yes, that lithp may help Rudy carry Greenwich Village and Than Franthithco, but it will hurt him in the long haul.

It's gay humor friday night at Ace's place!

"Do you think they are going to vote for a guy who publically humilated his WIFE????"

Didn't seem to stop them in 92 and 96.

Not the best precedent, maybe. But still.

President Hillary doesn't scare me.
This country survived 8 years of Sad King Billie without too much trouble (other than a stronger China, emboldened AQ, castrated military & intelligence community, Nuke armed Norks & Pakastanis and a crushing recession)

But the Republican House (and just the House for the most part of it!) had a spine and attempted to move this country to the right.
We'd get more conservatism out of an opposition House with a Dem POTUS than with both in Republican Hands.
And I can't imagine any functional difference between how Hillary, McCain or W would govern on the big issues nowadays.

Aint no way in hell I would vote for McCain- his facist attack on the first ammendment is enough cause for me. I would vote for Hillary first. Hell I'd sit back and not vote if it was Kerry vs McCain.

If Rudy is actually fiscally conservative and at least rightward leaning with judges without cronyism (no Kerrik for SCOTUS) I might actually vote for the man.

And after W slapped me in the face thats actually an acomplishment.

I just think McCain is the only one who can do it.

He whitewashed the Vietnam MIA thing with Kerry.

No way. I'll stay home before I put that frigging traitor in office.

What Tony said.

Knemom,

If you recall, Clinton didn't humilate his wife until after he had already been elected the 2nd time.

They denied it together before then.

Oh, come on, Sparkle. Like she hadn't been humiliated before that?

Two reasons John McCain will never be the GOP nominee:

Campaign finance reform
Gang of 14

The man's ego far too often eclipses his common sense.

Plus, to beat Rudy he needs to demonstrate his conservative bona fides. He recently endorsed a pro-choice candidate in California. Plus, I just can't trust a guy so obviously desperate for attention.

McCain is the effing Manchurian Candidate.

McCain has more star power and is more personable on camera???? I love you, Sparkle, but what the hell have you been smoking, some of that Texas jimson weed?

Christ, you can practically see him rolling the ball bearings around in his hand.

kellymo,

yes, but only in private. They denied everything in public...and together. Big difference than the wronged wife standing alone in front of their home in front of national TV and holding back tears.

I'm just giving yall the soccor mom's take on it.

Don't shoot the messenger.

;-)

I could hold my nose and vote for Giuliani. I'd pull out my teeth and set myself on fire before I'd vote for McCain.

As big as the Republican party is, can't we do better than these two?

Slublog,

Ironically (if McCain got the nomination) those would be the two reasons he would win.

You and I may know what campaign finance reform really means, but to the general public they think that sounds GREAT! They think it means stop spending all that money on campaigns! Stop special interest! They love it!

And the gang of 14 makes him look like a compromiser. We may not like compromisers, but the everyone else does.

"can't we do better than these two?"

Nope.

Well, Huckabee.

But that's not happening. Ain't gonna be no "President Huckabee." One step above "President Poopiepants." The guy seems like the real deal (though Arkansas has burned us badly before), but his name sounds too silly.

Of course, I'm not a high-powered, indictment-risking political advisor. Just a loser with a keyboard.

*

Rightwingsparkle, you are cynical. And, probably, correct.

As for the po'd ex-wife (wives? yikes!), couldn't they be bought off? Everyone's got a price.

You don't need the Gang of 14 to tar and feather McCain- just dig out the Keating 5 scrapbooks.

He can be easily defeated just due that little piece of criminal history.

Christ, you can practically see him rolling the ball bearings around in his hand.

Craig:

Just wanted you to know that someone picked up on your reference to The Caine Mutiny. An apt analogy, I'm thinking.

McCain is the effing Manchurian Candidate.

Fair Flower of Southern Womanhood:

Effing?

Will you please stop trying to prove yourself as a genuine AOSHQ degenerate?

McCain is not a fucking Manchurian candidate. He is a motherfucking unprincipled POS who will sell us out in a minute.

Am I making myself clear?

This country survived 8 years of Sad King Billie without too much trouble (other than a stronger China, emboldened AQ, castrated military & intelligence community, Nuke armed Norks & Pakastanis and a crushing recession)

and the 1.6 gallon gravity toilet.

Here's how I think the average South Park Repub regards Rudy.
"Rudy for prez? Sure he did a great job on 9/11!" Too/not enough conservative on social issues? Well, I guess, but he did a great job on 9/11! He has feet of clay? I s'pose, but he did a great job on 9/11!"
And he gives good speeches.

I'd gladly take Gulliani over McCain. McCain may well be the manchurian candidate - if the manchurian candidate is a sleeper demo moon-bat. I'd sit out the election before I'd vote for McCaine. Can't stand the man. Gulliani has some personal baggage but he does have principles and has stood by them. He's also shown leadership under really stressful circumstances. I think that is important. Not saying he's the best candidate, but between McCain and Gulliani there isn't any question who would be the better president.

Giuliani has never gone out of his way to antagonize the GOP the way McCain has done. Giuliani would never attempt to kiss up to the press or say outlandish things just to get attention (no, he'll say outlandish things because that's just his personality). If it's a choice between Giuliani and McCain, I wouldn't have to even give it a second thought before choosing Rudy.

Ace is right about the social conservative aspects of Giuliani. In a way, his pro-choice position could help. When it comes time to appoint justices, he might have less resistance, but the justices he picks will probably wind up being acceptable to conservatives. Besides, he's not as socially liberal as people think. He might have a tough time of convincing southern conservatives of that, but I'll volunteer to help spread the message.

Rudy! Rudy! Rudy!

Wow. I just found out from Duhggee that I am a South Park Conservative! I would vote for Rudy instantly. McCain scares me because I never can anticipate where he will fall on any given issue. Hillary scares me because I DO know where she will fall on any given issue. The divorce issue with Rudy does not bother me. The "wronged" wife was in The Vagina Monologues before the performance she put on in front of the mansion, so she lost a lot of cred in the role of The poor wronged wife. And McCain had a previous marriage, too. The fact that Hillary has only had one marriage and one husband gives her no cred (in my opinion) because the marriage itself is so warped that it makes everyone wonder what the real reason for staying in it is.
I like Rudy, and I base most of my feelings for him on his behavior during 9-11. Before that he was simply the Mayor of NY that everyone credited with cleaning up the city. What I saw I liked, and still do.

Have an instinctive aversion to both McCain and Giuliani. If they were the only two in a primary, I'd go with Rudy.
That NYC accent and grating, clipped cadence makes him sound like a hustler.
But I liked how he told that Saudi guy to shove his charitable donation up his ass after 9/11.

Half the time McCain was on camera the last time he ran in the primaries, he was florid with rage and I was afraid his carotid artery would explode on camera. Sincerely, RWS; the man is nucking futz.

The fact that Hillary has only had one marriage and one husband gives her no cred (in my opinion) because the marriage itself is so warped that it makes everyone wonder what the real reason for staying in it is.

Jayne? The press will give it plenty of cred. And anyone who says otherwise will be promptly crucified.

"Here's how I think the average South Park Repub regards Rudy.
"Rudy for prez? Sure he did a great job on 9/11!" Too/not enough conservative on social issues? Well, I guess, but he did a great job on 9/11! He has feet of clay? I s'pose, but he did a great job on 9/11!"
And he gives good speeches. "

Sounds about right.
Before trying to reverse a society's moral decline, shouldn't you make sure the society's safe from outside attack?

"That NYC accent and grating, clipped cadence makes him sound like a hustler."

Bigotry! (heh)

This is why we need a balanced ticket - Giuliani/Huckabee? Any more balanced and it'd be a nutritious breakfast.

"The press will give it plenty of cred. And anyone who says otherwise will be promptly crucified."

Not this time. If FOX is good for one thing, it's making Democrats look bad. And in some cases, that's not that hard.

Maybe I should get RUDY CAN'T FAIL tattooed on my forehead ....

Judging from places like Free Republic, Giuliani makes people suck their teeth and wonder how that would play in the South. McCain evokes shivering rage. "The base" (I'm beginning to tire of that term) loathes the man.

Rudy is a natural #2 man for a ticket. Republicans don't get elected running from the left side of the party. Then again, neither do Dems. *snort*

"Rudy is a natural #2 man for a ticket."

Who'd be #1? Allen?
While I'm a big Rudy backer, I think it's all or nothing - can't see him as the VP.

A Giuliani nomination could be the best idea in the world, or the worst. Either way, it'd be historical.

Before trying to reverse a society's moral decline, shouldn't you make sure the society's safe from outside attack?

I'm not sure these are entirely separate issues but assuming they were it sounds like a case of walking and chewing gum.

Rudy for #2.

McCain is a pathological camera hog, all show and no substance. His only constituency is the guys holding news cameras and they never vote Republican anyway. That's why they love him. He gets the back of the electoral hand.

Haley Barbour might be worth a look, but a president from MS seems about as likely as one who embodies NYC. Way too far from Main Street and I don't see it happening.

I'd like Forbes to give it another try. It tempts the Dems to use the class envy plays that haven't worked since the 70's. I doubt even a savvy operator like Hillary!, Maoist that she is, could completely resist. Especially with Moveon money at stake.

Dream candidate (assuming a win) would be Thomas Sowell, but he'd need serious lessons on how to put that titanic intellect on rapid fire. Maybe Mark Steyn could help.

Back in the real world -- and it's just a fun thing to toy with -- how about Rumsfeld? That would surely drive the Dems batty in the extreme. Their far left would demand the most bizarre and alienating BS from a candidate or walk over to the Good Karma and Bean Sprouts Party. And the election would once again be a referendum on whether it is a good idea to squash homicidal nutjobs who want to incinerate soccer moms and give their children anthrax.

I could live with that.

Rudy/Jeb in 2008!

McCain is a more conservative guy (pro-life) than Rudy but Rudy has never pissed off evangelicals like McCain seemingly delights in doing.

RWS is right about Rudy's potential weakness with women. But, she underestimates Hillary's weakness with men.

I prefer Rudy over mCain but I can live with either. McCain is nuts but after 9/11, I'm not sure that is a bad thing.

"Dream candidate (assuming a win) would be Thomas Sowell"

Well, yeah, if we're talking *dream* candidates, Sowell/Huckabee or something like that.

Within the realm of people that can win both the nomination and the general, I still think Rudy's the guy to beat. *Especially* if Hillary is the opponent - if the Democrats have to be worried about holding NY, NJ and PA, they won't have time to target any of the purple states.

[Rumsfeld: Back in the 60s, everyone thought Rumsfeld would be President one day ... instead, it was GHWB. Similar guys in lotsa ways (Rumsfeld was Nixon's most liberal cabinet member, I think ...) Interesting how labels change over time]

Knemon, Rudy's just getting hyped. It isn't going to happen. Just to throw out a little perspective, how many people were talking about W in 1997? Hmmm?

Hillary! v. Rudy = USA tunes out. All you get is the radicalized pro-Hillary! base vs the radicalized anti-Hillary! base. Frankly, Hillary hate overwhelms love for Rudy and subsumes all the pro-Rudy voters. Fun race for the Senate, at least for political hobbyists, but Rudy is waaaay too NYC to work as the #1 guy.

And just for the record, I'd say for the GOP to count on courting NY, NJ, PA or CA is like the Dems contatnly courting the "youth vote." It's OK to be jilted once or twice, but it starts to look pretty pathetic if you won't stop the one-sided courtship. Rudy may carry NY on state issues, although the Hillary! Senate campaign was looking like a real hard fight when neither had the advantage of incumbancy. I don't believe Rudy can carry NY on national issues without alienating the rest of the country. MHO.

I'll have to sleep on it, but Rumsfeld is starting to grow on me. Or maybe Schwartzkopf. ;-)

how many people were talking about W in 1997

Dark horses just don't win Republican primaries. Not even Reagan could do it! We send up the next big name, even when it's suicide (*cough*Viagra*cough*).

It'll be one of the people on Ruffini's poll.

bob: No more Bushes. Ever. Not after this week. Giuliani/Barbour, maybe. If Rudy or Mitt tops the ticket, the VP will definitely be some conservative southern guy.

Oh hell yes. No more Bushes. That's not to say anything pro or con on Jeb, just, as a matter of principle, we cannot give it to another Bush. Didn't we revolt against a royal lineage back in the day?

Over at Protein Wisdom there was discussion over what would ever get any of us to vote Dem...pretty much nothing, but another Bush or McCain as the presidential pick would get me to stay home, even if Hillary was the alternative.

McCain. Ugh. I really had to hold my nose when I voted for him again in '04. I apologize on behalf of Arizona.

It was the Bush name -- if Jeb had beaten Chiles, he'd be President.

Nobody I knew was talking about W at all until '98 or '99.

Dark horses just don't win Republican primaries. Not even Reagan could do it!

The GOP has a problem whenever it looks like it's someone's "turn." (Ford, Dole, Bush I.) Right now the field looks open to me and anyone can play. As you would expect from free markets, we get better results that way. (Reagan, W.) It's still way too early to know what the options are going to be.

Rudy's pugnacity is appealing and the abortion thing is easily contained since conservatives say it's a state matter. But the guy has skeletons and his basic reach without them is in the same class as Condi Rice. He's also pro-gun control and that's just poisonous. In the #2 slot, we get all his virtues on the ticket and minimize his drawbacks.

Rumsfeld/Rudy in '06. Campaign theme: "Don't Get Stuck On Stupid!" Who couldn't live with that?

"Rudy is waaaay too NYC to work as the #1 guy."

Bush was waaaay too Texas to work.
Clinton was waaaay too Arkansas.

Everybody's gotta come from somewhere.

I grew up upstate, so I defer to no-one in my antipathy to The Capital of The Universe - but Rudy's still the man.

When I used to work in an insurance company, a hundred thousand years ago, they used to run promotions in certain states and we all hated New York promotions. For a variety of reasons having to do with the callers from the City.

Like when asked 'what state do you reside in?' (as if I didn't know by the voice) their reply was invariably, 'Staten Island,' or 'da Bronx.'

You ask them for the state, and they give you the borough.
Oh, right....Staten Island, the fifty-first state.
I don't know what that is all about, but so many New Yorkers do it.

I defer to no-one in my antipathy to The Capital of The Universe

Impressive since the competition is so much deeper and broader than, say, for Texas or Arkansas. :-)

"Rudy is waaaay too NYC to work as the #1 guy."

I've said it before and I'll say it again - Giuliani may be a great candidate for the Northeast, but he's a non-starter in the West. We don't know him, and we don't particularly like or respect NYC. He's got a lot of work to do to convince everybody west of the Mississippi that he's a realistic presidential candidate.

He's got a lot of work to do to convince everybody west of the Mississippi that he's a realistic presidential candidate.

South of the Mason-Dixon Line, too.

The GOP doesn't win national elections with moderates. Just sayin'.

I'm aware that Rudy has his work cut out for him in, for example, the South Carolina primary. But if anyone from the northeast can clear these hurdles, it's him. (Or maybe Romney, but I'm not such a big fan).

http://www.patrickruffini.com/archives/2005/10/tag_the_vote_re_1.php

This is a self-selecting poll, not "scientifically" done, so take it with a grain of salt.

Still:
"South Carolina: Giuliani 28.6%, Allen 23.4%, Romney 8.9%, Barbour 5.1%"

Allen's the one to watch there. Either Giuliani/Allen or Allen/Giuliani would be a strong ticket, IMHO. I prefer the first ....

And from Rasmussen:
"Giuliani is viewed favorably by 71% of Republicans. Only 54% of the GOP faithful have a similar opinion of McCain."

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/2005/GOP%20Nomination.htm

The sense I get is that most McCain supporters would be okay with Giuliani. Most Allen supporters are at least *open* to the idea of Rudy. But Allen backers and McCainiacs seem to have little to no overlap.

Whatever - it's probably not healthy to think about it too much at this point. (But still, Rudy! Rudy! Rudy! Okay, I'm done for now.)