He didn't lose. He just won the right to give a concession speech.

Ah, to continue the Brit influence, isn't this a perfect example of 'Deferred Success'?

...

His appeal is more selective than Schmidt's.

Let's look at the Republican to Democrat election % for the last 4 elections, shall we...

2004 72% to 28%

2002 74% to 26%

2000 74% to 23%

1998 76% to 24%

This election, a 4 point difference. If that is not something for the Republicans to get nervous about and for Democrats to get encouraged about in your opinion then that is even better news fro Democrats.

Thomas,

Your numbers are good, but don't take into account the fact that the race only had about a 25 percent turnout rate. Low by any standard.

Once the turnout rate returns to normal, so will the winning ratio of Republicans in that district.

And, in the end, Hackett lost and Schmidt won. This, despite the millions spent my Dems and the national attention on the war hero candidate.

"This election, a 4 point difference. If that is not something for the Republicans to get nervous about and for Democrats to get encouraged about in your opinion then that is even better news fro Democrats."

Hmm, to be honest, I never had heard of this race, much less either of these two people until today.

So, in a special election, in which the D's put up a recent veteren who served honorably, and had lots of out of cycle interest and money still can't win, what are his chances when no-one out side the district are paying attention (like next year...)?

When your only tool (i.e. losing elections) is a hammer, everything looks like a nail...

Get encouraged then. Sell your fucking bicycle to fund the next moonbat who calls Bush a son-of-a-bitch. Convince some rich currency speculators to fund another shithole in your fervor.

We all think it's funny as hell the way you guys piss what little money you can steal from your mother's purse on these quixotic attempts to avenge God-knows-what.

Not to mention that in this race, Democrats could afford to focus their money and attention on one campaign.

Next year, they won't have that luxury and when you look at the cash on hand of the two political parties, things don't look good for the Dems:

Democratic Party - $39,874,048
Republican Party - $73,188,438

Oh, and they're raising less, too:

Democratic Party - $94,434,455
Republican Party - $151,394,447

In other words, the Republicans have a lot more money to spread around next year, and more safe seats.

Info from OpenSecrets.org.

That's rich Thomas.
Another way of looking at it is; the Dems still lost even though 1/2 of the registered Republicans stayed home.

Whoo!
Yea!
Way to go!

Thomas,

Well, look dude, even with a great biography which appeals to conservatives and moderates (and even some liberals), you still can't win.

Hackett was a good candidate for the Dems. He still lost. Was the narrowness of the loss a moral victory?

I guess. But it's Kerry Part II: A war hero biography is nice and will get you votes, but not, it seems, enough. People vote only partially on biography; they still seem to care about that "substance" you liberals are always on about.

When one's entire world is relativistic (save GWB - he's absolute evil), then had Hackett lost 99% to 1% it would still be a victory because of the changing definition of "victory".

That epitomises the problem of relativism.

Well, this is certainly one way to report the news.

From WBIR TV in Knoxville, TN

Republican beats Iraq war veteran in special election

An Iraq war veteran has lost a congressional race.

In Ohio, Republican Jean Schmidt won a special election, defeating Iraq veteran Paul Hackett. The Democrat has drawn national attention because of his service in the Marines and his outspoken criticism of President Bush.

Democrats had viewed the race as a bellwether for next year's midterm elections, hoping for a strong showing by Hackett in a heavily GOP district

Damn those Republicans.

Damn them to hell.

You are all correct of course. No one is noticing that it was a surprising close race in one of the most solidly Republican districts in the nation. No one but a few "moon bats" and "ass hats" that is.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/03/national/03ohio.html?

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050803/NEWS01/508030355/1077

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,164557,00.html

Thomas, you're missing the point of all of those articles.

Allow me:

NYTimes
"Paul L. Hackett lost his underdog bid to become the first combat veteran from the Iraq war to serve in Congress."

Inquirer
"The win by Republican Jean Schmidt in Tuesday's 2nd Congressional District election was in no way shocking, but the fact that Democrat Paul Hackett made it a very close election is nothing short of astounding."

Fox News
"A Republican former state lawmaker claimed a seat in Congress on Tuesday by narrowly defeating an Iraq war veteran who drew national attention to the race with his military service and a series of harsh attacks on President Bush."

To assist in understanding, I've highlighted the relevant passages.

If that is not something for the Republicans to get nervous about and for Democrats to get encouraged about in your opinion then that is even better news fro Democrats.

yeah, I'm big-time worried. anybody catch the ad Hackett ran all week trying to look like a hawk?

If I were a Dem, I'd be worried that lying doesn't work anymore.

Slublog,
No shit. I am very happy to know that the closeness of the race, whose outcome was never in doubt, is of no concern to you. i sincerely hope that the Republican Party of Ohio shares the same opinion as you. As I said in my original comment...
"This election, a 4 point difference. If that is not something for the Republicans to get nervous about and for Democrats to get encouraged about in your opinion then that is even better news fro Democrats." Are you telling me anything that in any way contradicts what I have said? No. Are you daft man. You're talking a lot, but you're not saying anything, when I have nothing to say, my lips are sealed, say something once, why say it again?
Thomas

Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades and King County election results.

Raoul...close doesn't matter in King County...

Thomas,

I'm pleased that the left are seeing that the only way to close the gap iun elections is to be hawkish as Hackett was in the last couple of weeks with his TV Spots.

What would really thrill many Republicans is if they actually became hawkish instead of being wishy-washy leftists only pretending to be hawkish to get votes.

Seriously, if a Dem closes the gap by pretending to be a republican, and the real republican still wins, what does that tell you..

This would be like the Eagles saying they won the Superbowl because they covered the point spread.

Thomas, please continue to do exactly what you have been doing, and encourage your fellow baby killers communists appeasers Democrats to do the same.

baby killers communists appeasers Democrats.

Um, Ace. Is this fellow a friend of yours?

Are you telling me anything that in any way contradicts what I have said? No. Are you daft man. You're talking a lot, but you're not saying anything, when I have nothing to say, my lips are sealed, say something once, why say it again?

And I'm saying it doesn't matter a bit whether you lose by 4 points or 400 - you still lost. I'm glad the closeness of the race has proven to be a nice soothing balm for your hurt egos, but it doesn't change the fact that Democrats had a good candidate, a lot of money and still lost.

This was a special election. Turnout and enthusiasm among the Democrats could have made the difference in winning. Instead, you pulled close, but still lost.

Getting the point here yet?

The strikethroughs were stripped, but you get the idea.

Please feel free to demonstrate that the Democratic Party does not actively promote, condone or tolerate baby-killing, communists, and/or appeasers.

You can direct your answer to your party's baby-killing, communist, and appeasement donors. Better yet, try telling it to the voters. You might win one or two elections that way.

No matter how hard we push the heavy, formless lumps of stone we have as candidates up that hill, we just can seem to get them over the top.

What's up with that, anyway?

Was the narrowness of the loss a moral victory?

This thread sounds like the three blind men describing the elephant, each is describing what he knows, while none of them see the complete picture. I don't know the facts in this election (though I've never let get in the way of my pontificating before) but without all the facts, perhaps this really is a "moral vistory" for Liberals.

perhaps this really is a "moral vistory" for Liberals

If so, great. Let them have their "moral" victories. Just so long as Republicans keep winning "actual more vote equals able to influence policy" victories.

Thomas, thomas, thomas - you don't get it. Being a "special" election the vast majority of people don't even bother to get off their couch.

What was the turnout here? 25% maybe

Presuming this was a "hard sell" push by the dems, in relative terms they generated what amounts to bupkis in turnout. IOW - they couldn't even win with an "energized" base when the competition was home watching Leave it to Beaver reruns. TDNBW

Rather than a moral victory I see this as a punishing defeat.

Thomas -

You point out the truth, the past margins of one of the safest Republican Districts in the country....and all you get is Sublog arrogance. Reminds me of the Dems back in 1993.

It is unfortunate to mention this, but if the election was held at the end of the week, it probably would have gone to Hackett. News hadn't come out that 6 Marine Reservists from Ohio were killed on Monday. Nor that ANOTHER 14 from 3rd Reserve Marine Battalion/25th based in Brookside Ohio were killed late Tuesday.

Nor that Iraq and Iran signed a mutual defense assistance treaty....

Nor that the 2 things the "noble purple fingered freedom-loving Iraqis" as Bush brainlessly calls them, agree on at their Constitution drafting meetings - is the Iraqi Constitution will be based on Sharia and that woman's rights crap has to be blacklined out...

29%

But these numbers tell an even funnier
story.

Reps stayed home.

You point out the truth, the past margins of one of the safest Republican Districts in the country....and all you get is Sublog arrogance. Reminds me of the Dems back in 1993.

Two words: special election. Special. Election.

Go read the story Dave links. Next year, the same district will be won, by a Republican, with at least a 20 percent margin.

Look, I understand the desire to spin this into a win. Losing by that narrow a margin has got to be tough.

And by the way, Cedarford, there's a major difference between 1993 and now.

The Republicans back then had a leader with ideas. Think what you will of Newt Gingrich and the Contract With America, but the ideas contained within it helped the Republicans develop a national strategy to win local elections.

The Democrats are low on money and devoid of ideas. How exactly is Bush-hatred and anti-war sentiment going to led them to victory in national elections?

Phinn,
Thanks for reminding me the the GOP is the party of the truly noble and moral. Stories like these make me forget that sometimes.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1540549,00.html

LOL
I think you just lost whatever credibility you might have had there Tommy boy.

Laura - Why do you say that? I'm assuming you are attempting to dismiss the Guardian article, is this correct? Di yo read the article, or the intro article?

Recruits to some groups connected to al-Qaida are thought to be instructed to make allegations of torture after capture, and most of Mohammed's claims cannot be independently verified. But his description of a prison near Rabat closely resembles the Temara torture centre identified in a report by the US-based Human Rights Watch last October.

Furthermore, this newspaper has obtained flight records showing executive jets operated by the CIA flew in and out of Morocco on July 22 2002 and January 22 2004, the dates he says he was taken to and from the country.

So why do you so easily reject the article?

vonKreedon,
Because any news source that posts ANY article that are contrary to the offical Bush talking points is immediately and totally discounted. It makes living in an echo chamber more comfortable. Everyone is happy together, problems and be ignored and the people can be unified against a common enemy. THE LIBERAL! Think about thier coalition. Fiscal conservatives! libritarians, Christian Extremists, all very different, BUT they have one thing in common, they are weak minded and have been convinced that the Liberal is their enemy. Fucked up I know, but all but the most nutty Republicans i know are starting to crack, this confederacy of dunces shall not stand.

Sorry, guys. The haldol we had him on just isn't working. He's still complaining that Donald Rumsfeld is trying to escape from his navel and seeing images of George Bush in his morning toast.

We're thinking about switching him to thorazine, but we've got to wait until the other stuff is completely out of his system first.

It'll be a few hours.

thomas- Just how euphoric will you be when a democrat actually wins a race? Now that your party won 45 seats in the U.S. senate and several hundred house seats last election you must be positively walking on air. And just think how closely your party has come to winning the Presidency!!!! Why there are so many moral victories on your plate one hardly knows where to begin. Congratulations are certainly in order. We here on the right wish you many more victories similar to Hacketts.

Now why would a terrorist lie?

And furthermore, I fervently hope it is true.

If all we are doing is harsh interrogation techniques, perhaps we could use the assistance of nations like Egypt and Pakistan to extract more info from the stubborn terrorists.
This guy is not a shoplifter, he didn't spit on the sidewalk...he is a terrorist. We can't stop them through 'dialogue' and wishing really really hard.

But what really burns me is that you fucking guys ARE ALWAYS SO APPALLED at the use of force by our side, but never condemn the barbaric acts of terrorists.

You could gain some credibility if you acted so horrified when terrorists intentionally murder innocent people in terrible ways.

But you never really say much about that. It is almost like you think they are justified in intentionally targeting innocent civilians and little kids. Thus, your expressions of horror-that a TERRORIST was tortured- kind of fall flat with me.

I do not think of liberals as the enemy. I think of them as people who deserve to be protected from danger by their governments, same as everybody else.
It is the liberals who continually call conservatives the enemy- while never applying that kind of vitriol to people who actually, really, are trying to kill them. Not fictitiously, not a distorted threat. Its for real, and it has been going on for fifty years.

I'd rather not die the death of a thousand mosquito bites while trying to rationalize it away. I'd rather drain the swamp.

-And please, explain to me what the point was in introducing that article in the first place?

I mean, your 'Hackett didn't lose by much!' triumphalism was thoroughly flushed down the toilet, so then you come back with...what?

GOP bad?
America bad?

I mean, seriously, what the fuck?

Lauraw- Gently, gently. Libs must be slowly and gently awakened from their stupor. To have reality revealed all at once causes catatonic cacophoney to set in and brain freeze results. Tommy is a nice sort of person that to date can mostly dress himself, eat with some help and more often than not communicate in logical patterns. Of course he is limited by his delusional fantasies, but if we work with him carefully he can be healed. As to VonKreedon, I'm afraid we have a hopeless condition of incredulousinsiftilitous. This symptoms of this conditon is that the sufferer believes whatever a suicide bomber/ terrorist says if it is printed in a newspaper, particularly if the U.S. or the U.S. armed forces are presented in a bad light. There is no known cure, so we can only sympathize for those unfortunate enough to have to deal with him on a regular basis. Mr VonKreedon of course will deny all knowldge of said condition which is of itself a confirmation of my diagnosis, said denial being a second symptom of this dread disease of the mind.

Can someone tell me why I should care if we're outsourcing terrorist torture? [yawn]

During a war long forgotten we would have had the stones to take a few up to 2,500 feet in a chopper and ask if they wanted to talk, and started pitching them out until one decided to sing.

Ruh roh.

Did you say 'outsourcing?'
Outsourcing is immoral. Think of all the downtrodden, deadend steel mill workers who would jump at the chance to torture terrorists.
But no.
Some dude in Pakistan is doing the cutting.

WHAT PRICE GLOBALISM??!?

A question for folks out there with military experience:

I live in OH 2nd district, and heard a last-minute interview with Hacket on AAR (less than one hr before the polls closed), and he was repeating his mantra that the troops don't have the equipment they need. Said that most of our soldiers and marines ar carrying M16's with iron sights, and should all have scope sights. he named the sight by model number, I don't remember what it was. It sounded bogus to me. I mean, if you have a rifle that every rifleman in the theater is qualified to fire, does that same rifleman need a telescopic sight to fire it effectively? What I'm asking of the military guys is:

What does it take to earn those rifleman medals? What are the levels of proficiency? How accurate can you expect to be with iron sights?
Seems to me (as someone whose experience is limited to shooting 22's, a shotgun, and occasionally a 30-30), that a scope sight wouldn't be a good thing to mount on every M16.

It begs the question;
What would a liberal do with a nice British boy such as Benyam Mohammed?

No, not torture. OK, that's fine. Its not a war, its a criminal investigation.

But there is evidence that he was conspiring to commit terrorist activities. And he was captured with Taliban. He has yet to disclose his story. We'd sure like to hear it.

Mustn't we retrieve this information, if we're good custodians of our nation and want to protect our citizens?
Heavy interrogation? What tactics are OK, and what are not? The typical stuff you'd do with a common criminal; sleep and sensory deprivation, noise, psychological games etc. -is that OK?

Let's say we get information out of him, what do we do with him afterwards?
Detain him? Where? A GTMO type facility? No? In the civilian prison population?

Or maybe house arrest back in Notting Hill. Or do we release him altogether, back to the otherwise peaceable muslim community there? Eating fish n' chips like his trip to Afghanistan never happened.

What would you do when prosecuting a war against extremist bomb-plotters, differently than we are already doing now?

Wow. Talk about thread-jacking. Libs sure got that down pat.

Maybe they should run on a platform of Internet thread-jacking in 2006.

BILL--As a veteran I can tell you we never had the equipment we desired, just what was available in Vietnam. We were issued the M-16 which was so bad that everyone was picking up the Russian madeA k 47 where ever we could. The Army had to outlaw the use of the AK 47. The M-16 was both inaccurate and had such low tolerance that it often jammed when it got just slightly dirty. I don't know about the present rifles,but each soldier has his own favorite weapon which he feels most confident in and competent with. Note that the Special Ops are very different than Mr. Hackett. He was in essence in a support unit. I was in the Army Engineers. While I did see action, it was not my primary duty. I doubt that Mr. Hacket ever fired a rifle while in Iraq. He was more likely to get a hang nail than shot. The special ops have different equipment that the rest of the units and have very different training. Mr. Hackett is a TRIAL ATTORNEY and that is why he is an officer. Paper cuts were his most deadly worry. As to his concern over weaponry--- Please. The man is extremely dishonest in representing what his duties were and what he actually did in Iraq. He knows considerably less about military tactics, strategy and weaponry than the average 6 year old boy.

Cedarford:

Sounds like you have all the reasons in the world to win any election held, ever. Why, with all the crap that brainless wonder in the White House is forcing on us dumb peons (pee-ons?), it's a real wonder we haven't just gone out & lynched a few of our favorite libs!

In the meantime, real people are dying because there really are people out there who could care less is you're all fuzzy for them, the fact is you don't believe in their view of the world and that's all that matters. You hate your duly elected president (TWICE duly elected) so much it doesn't matter certain of the "insurgents" would emasculate what's left of your manhood, then behead you chanting Allah is great.

When you can view reality without your fuzzy roses on, when you can attack barbarism as visciously as you attack decent people, then you may have earned the right to be considered seriously. Until then, whenever your name shows up at the end of a comment most thinking people will consider the source and dismiss it out of hand. What a maroon.

It is almost like you think they are justified in intentionally targeting innocent civilians and little kids.

Actually (I hate using that word, suggestions welcome), it's exactly like that.

"...whenever your name shows up at the end of a comment most thinking people will consider the source and dismiss it out of hand."

Mweh heh heh.
Nothing succeeds like success, eh C?
Another testament to the power of persuasion.

I know Dave, Shhh! You'll give up the game.

(resumes hiding behind bushes, rifle in hand)

Ok, I'm slow. I rode the little bus.

lauraw:

And here I thought no one was paying attention. Thanks.

It makes living in an echo chamber more comfortable. Everyone is happy together, problems and be ignored and the people can be unified against a common enemy. THE LIBERAL! Think about thier coalition. Fiscal conservatives! libritarians, Christian Extremists, all very different, BUT they have one thing in common, they are weak minded and have been convinced that the Liberal is their enemy. Fucked up I know, but all but the most nutty Republicans i know are starting to crack, this confederacy of dunces shall not stand

You know, Thomas, I don't want to be a jerk, but the whole 'you're weak minded and we're so smart' argument would work a whole hell of a lot better if your grammar and spelling weren't on the level of a bad fifth grade essay. Yes, I know how petty that sounds, but I'm just tired of being told how stupid I am by people who abuse the language. Please, if you're going to question the intelligence of your opponents, try to show some evidence of it yourself.

Two, conservatism is hardly an echo chamber. Some of the best debates I've seen on this site or others are between conservatives. Just look at the Evolution versus Intelligent Design debate going on a few posts down. Most of the people involved in that debate are conservatives, but we disagree. Imagine that.

I know this must be a hard concept for you, since the DNC doesn't normally allow for dissenting views. Think I'm full of it? Tell me. Exactly how many pro-life speakers have you had at your recent presidential conventions? Compare and contrast with how many pro-choice candidates have been featured at the Republican conventions.

It's great for you that this election was close. I'm sure it must have felt great. But perhaps you should worry less about 'gaining momentum,' 'scaring the GOP' and 'sending a message' and more about actually formulating an ideology that will WIN ELECTIONS.

I've voted for Democrats in the past, as recently as 2004, actually. I'm not especially comfortable with the idea of one party dominating the political process. I hope to see Democrats get serious about national security and the issues facing this country so they can win again.

You can rant about echo chambers and dumb Republicans all you want, but know that the further you pull your own party into the fever swamps, the less likely people like me are to vote for the candidates you support.

With loses like this, who needs wins? Democrats will surely be marching through the congress and whitehouse like Grant took Richmond in no time.

All is lost! Bow down and tremble before Hackett's mighty FOUR POINT MARGIN!!! HE WON A MORAL VICTORY!!!

For the lying sack of barnyard "dirt" he is, how could he win a MORAL victory? Oh, yeah, I forgot - to him "moral" is all relative to whether you have to do it to win. Kinda like blowing up babies and women is moral as long as it serves the Allah of your choice.

"A dear bought victory, another such would have ruined us."
Gen. Thomas Gage after the Battle of Bunker Hill (Breed's Hill).

If the Democrats have any more such victories, the only place you will find them in Washington will be in the Library of Congress, on the reference shelf.