aren't most AK-47s 7.62mm?

Pretty sure the Ak-47 uses 7.62 ammo. Sorry, I can't help myself with these things.

Gun nerd update--actually AK-47s fire the 7.62 x 39 mm caliber of peace. The newer ones (I think the ones designated AK-74) fire the smaller, faster 5.45 x 39 mm caliber of peace.

Thanks. Wasn't sure if it was 7.62 or 5.54. I'll change.

FYI- Typical models:

AK-47 = 7.62 x 39 mm rounds

M 16 / AR 15 fires the 5.56 x 39 mm

No correction on that rate of fire? I made that up, you know. Just "guestimated."

I'll chime in with the by-now obvious: AK-47 uses 7.62mm NATO rounds. I've fired 'em before, and they kick like a mule. Worthless for anything over about ten yards away, but you don't use these suckers for accuracy shooting anyhow. The main advantage of the AK over something like the M-16 is not accuracy or even stopping-power; it's robustness. You can drop an AK in a mudhole, roll it in the sand, drag it throug an acre of weeds, and still shoot it. Disassembled, it comes into about ten pieces. An M-16, on the other hand, is pretty finicky (although not as jam-prone as it used to be) and has all kinds of little springs and doodads that make field-stripping a real pain in the ass.

That site I linked to says 600 RPM. 550's close enough for infidel work, right?

Doh, I gotta leave this alone, Monty--but it's not a 7.62 NATO round. (Commies don't use NATO calibers)That's a much faster (and longer) bullet used in the M14 and still in the M60. It's sold commercially as the .308 Winchester and makes an ideal deer (or sniper) cartridge. The AK's bullet is 39mm long, the NATO one is 51mm.

OK, that's it, too much good stuff at Ace's today.

See-Dub,

My understanding was that the old Warsaw Pact military used NATO calibers and other weapons measurements deliberately -- that way, they could just take from existing stocks after an invasion without having to depend on a logistics train that they knew would be unreliable. The same went for thinks like fuel hook-ups and shackle-points for bombs (and tank-treads -- the German Leopard has essentially the same tracks as a T-72/T-80).

This article has got to be false. We all know that guns are outlawed in England. How would they get something like an AK-47 to practice with?

What? It's also illegal to blow people up on a bus or subway? Ohhhh! Those rowdy Muslims, what will they do next?

No correction on that rate of fire? I made that up, you know. Just "guestimated."

Well, that was obvious. Because, you know, 6 times 2 plus 7 is 19. Can't figure out how to work a 19 into 550.

AK-47. When you absolutely, positively have to kill every motherfucker in the tube station, accept no subsitute.

See-Wubya is quite right. The AK-47 does not use 7.62X51 mm NATO rounds (.308) it uses the Soviet 7.62X39 mm (or the new Russian army round, which is 5.45X39mm). I own rifles in both calibers and though the Soviet 7.62X39 is a good assault rifle caliber, the .308 is a lot better round in general. But then, I prefer the 7mm magnum to almost anything else for a deer rifle.

72:

Just a question: doesn't the Makarov pistol use 7mm rounds? I've never handled one, but I have a friend who swears up and down it's the best pistol he's ever used. (My own nominee is the Colt Desert Eagle.)

Wow. I fully expect to NEVER CATCH CRAP AGAIN from any of you gents for being a stickler on Star Trek trivia.

:)

Later,
bbeck

This story illustrates the total folly of the west in regards to mosques. When dealing with an enemy it is stupid to put anywhere off limits to attack. Though we tried in WWII to avoid bombing an ancient Christian monastery full of Nazis, in the end we did it because tactical and strategic concerns dictated it. If important enemy installations were in the middle of civlian population centers, we bombed those too.

Apparently, the decision to place mosques off limits to attack has been around for quite awhile, surely long before 911. The worst part of this bad decision is that it reinforces to Islam that their "holy" places are so sacred that even the west must respect them and fear the repucussions from Islam if they ever attack them. This makes an attack upon a mosques even more of an outrage in the eyes of Islam and ensures that when we do attack them, the anger of Islam will be a hundred times greater than if we had done so regularly all these years!

Though we tried in WWII to avoid bombing an ancient Christian monastery full of Nazis, in the end we did it because tactical and strategic concerns dictated it.

If you are referring to the bombing of the Monte Cassino Abbey, I'm afraid that story is not congruent with your argument:

The decision to bomb the Monastery of Monte Cassino is still controversial. It is argued that there was no need to destroy the treasured Abbey and by doing so the Allies gave a propaganda victory to Hitler. After the capture, it became clear that the Germans had not occupied the monastery buildings themselves, although they were quite nearby.

After the capture, it became clear that the Germans had not occupied the monastery buildings themselves, although they were quite nearby.

That's what I love about VK and his pals, always trying to fight battles with that most powerful of weapons, hindsight.

Monty: Makarovs usually fire the "9x18 Makarov" or 7.62x25 "Tokarev" cartridges, IIRC... a li'l shorty rd. Different strokes for different strokes...I've never thought the Makarov was that great, and the round really sucks for actually killing anybody.

If you want a truly GREAT pistol from Easter Europe, get a CZ. A great gun in all the good, effective calibers.

The Arsenal pistols from Bulgaria are also quite nice, esp. their Walther PPK look-alike. Arsenal Bulgaria also makes one of the nicest AK-47 variants you are likely to find in N. America, the SLR-95.

That Tokarev round is extremely hot--it was the fastest pistol round out there before the .357 magnum, I think. I had a chance to fire a CZ-52 in that caliber and was surprised at the amount of zing. Pretty fun to shoot for a military pistol.

I think the Makarov's about the equivalent of a .380--in other words, not enough for self defense.

BTW, Ace, thanks for the Anka reference above.

D Anthony: Actually, the M16 fires 5.56x45mm, also known as .223.

Did VK have a point? Hey asshole, shit gets blown up in a war.

The Tokarev comes in a few flavors. Some of the PRC imports were/are chambered for ordinary 9mm. Some years ago I had one of the 9mm in my collection. The Mak's are somewhere between 9mm and .380's in length. Trigger pull is a little stiff and chunky, but it seems reliable enough.

Monty,

I defer to your knowledge about weapons, but when you said the AK47 "kicks like a mule" I've got to tell you that I've recently fired one. And it kicked like a .20 gauge shotgun, if that, no big deal for a girl, as long as it was braced against the shoulder.

Just my experience. Carry on.

The AK-47 round is a small, far less accurate round than the NATO 7.62. The AK-47 can be fired by a 90 pound female Vietnamese peasant - so it's a pretty small mule.

Seriously, it's not as light as the M-16 (partially because of the M-16's very comfy buffer).

Makarovs make nice little backup pocket guns. For a primary handgun it will never outdo a 1911A1 in .45ACP, but they aren't bad.

AK's are useful but crude instruments. I've taught CQC with both, and I'll generally prefer a tricked out M4. Better sights, better trigger.

Arabic: mosque

Englsih translation: armory.

Gotta agrre with Sgt Dan. Keep it clean and a M4gery will outshoot any AK-variant.

'Course nothin' beats a Barrett for long-distance "keeping in touch".

Von K

The decision to bomb the Monastery of Monte Cassino is still controversial. It is argued that there was no need to destroy the treasured Abbey and by doing so the Allies gave a propaganda victory to Hitler. After the capture, it became clear that the Germans had not occupied the monastery buildings themselves, although they were quite nearby.

You ignore the point: the fact is we did it when we thought it was necessary, like it or not.

The decision to bomb Monte Cassino is only controversial to those who don't care that the the allied soldiers were getting picked off at a steady clip by the germans holding the elevated position around the monastery.

Monty

Don't know that much about pistols so I concede to See-dubya and tonyi about ammo. Obviously, no ever made hangun could fire a 7mm Remingto Magnum round, it is way to big and powerful. I've fired the Tokarev and the Makarov but apparently it wasn't with hot ammo. I found a lot more kick in a Glock w/ dangerously hot handloads. The most wicked handgun I ever shot (and I've shot many different kinds and calibers) was the .454 Casull. The kick was so bad it fely like I was holding onto a 2" iron rod laid onto a table while someone on the other end hit the iron with a big hammer at full force. Much worse than a .44 mag, a .41 mag, a 10mm or the .50 Desert Eagle. It is in the class of the most powerful pistols made. I really like the .357 Magnum for penetrating and stopping power and had three of them. It penetrates car bodies much better than a .45. I used to carry a Smith 1.5 inch snub in .357. Amazingly accurate if you do your part.

"Soviet 7.62mm Ammunition, the Calibre of Peace" ... HA! /TJ

I've fired the Tokarev and the Makarov but apparently it wasn't with hot ammo. I found a lot more kick in a Glock 9 mm w/ dangerously hot handloads.

And even the SSK Contender (a single shot piston which is often used on Safari and killed many elephantsis a single shot pistol or the Remington XP-100 don't use 7mm Remington Magnum ammo.

I'm not sure, but I may be the only person posting on this thread who doesn't own a firearm...

Slublog, join the cool kids!

Actually I bet vonkreedon doesn't have one.

Slublog

I may be the only person posting on this thread who doesn't own a firearm...

Well, then you need to get one ASAP! They're really quite a lot of fun and a great hobby. I'd start with a .22 Browning Buckmark pistol, and if you want personal protection nothing less than a .38. I much prefer the .357 Magnum, which can also fire .38 rounds (in case you find the .357 a bit much in the beginning) as it has much better penetration and stopping power. For carry I like snub nosed revolvers like the .357 Smith & Wesson Airweight which is tiny, light (around 14 oz) easily concealable and packs a real wallop! If you carry a gun even for one day you'll quickly find out just how important weight and size are.

I love rifle shooting but since my eyesight isn't what it used to be, I've taken to skeet shooting which really is a blast! Hitting flying clay targets with a shotgun is easier than it looks, with practice. I once taught a 20 yr old girl (albiet a very well coodinated athletic one) who was hitting 30% on her first day! On the other hand I tried to teach a doctor friend at least a dozen times and he never broke 5% ever! Anyway, go out to a range and talk to some shooters, they're always friendly, especially to new shooters. Good Luck

Slublog

You should call a local gun club, most offer the NRA safety course which you should take and join the NRA. The Rifleman magazine is full of great articles and gun stuff every month.

I enjoy target shooting, but just never had much interest in owning a gun, as I don't have a lot of time to target shoot and don't hunt.

When I do feel like shooting, I visit the in-laws. My father-in-law builds black powder rifles and lets me blast away with those once in awhile. They have some kick, and smell like rotten eggs, but it's great fun.