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« Hydroponic Hamburgers?: Researchers Propose Cultivating Beef Tissue In Laboratories, Sans Cows | Main | Abu Hamza: Kill Him In Prison »
July 07, 2005

Open Thread: London Bombings

4 Bombs Cripple London Tubes and Buses. 45 Dead, 1000 Injured, at Least 150 Seriously.

I think all discussions of political implications should be handled delicately. They're still counting the dead.

I don't expect Enland to "overreact" as the world fretted when we were attacked. But I have to think that Al Qaeda's little safe base in London-- that hook-handed monster, for example, openly supporting terrorism -- has come to an end.

Probably Too Early For Speculation... But based upon multiple bombs apparently never detonating, Confederate Yankee thinks this may have been a more amateurish operation than a full Al Qaeda "holy victory for Allah."

"London Can Take It": Churchill's speech about Londoners standing up to the German Blitz over at The Colossus Blog:

There we stood, alone. Did anyone want to give in? [The crowd shouted "No."] Were we downhearted? ["No!"] The lights went out and the bombs came down. But every man, woman and child in the country had no thought of quitting the struggle. London can take it. So we came back after long months from the jaws of death, out of the mouth of hell, while all the world wondered. When shall the reputation and faith of this generation of English men and women fail? I say that in the long years to come not only will the people of this island but of the world, wherever the bird of freedom chirps in human hearts, look back to what we've done and they will say "do not despair, do not yield to violence and tyranny, march straight forward and die if need be-unconquered."

The Second Coming of Churchill... Over at DemocraticUnderground:

We Have To Discuss The Political Implications of This Attack Because....It's politics that caused it. Specifically, it was the mass manipulation of intelligence, lying, and fear-mongering on the part of Bush and Blair that goaded the U.S. and Britain into an illegal war in Iraq. And, folks, there's a price to pay for this, only it won't be Blair and Bush who will pay it. It will be you and me who will pay. We will be the targets of these attacks again and again. The only way to protect ourselves is to remove these neocon, war-mongering, chickenhawks, who believe that they have the God-given right to invade any country on earth, from power. They are making us less safe every day.

Why, it's very nearly "we will fight them on the beaches" all over again, mixed with the good parts of Henry V's St. Cripsin's Day speech.

Thanks to Slublog.

American Trains and Subways... To be officially raised to Orange Alert.


posted by Ace at 09:52 AM
Comments



I hope your wise admonition is observed by the left as well.


This is awful. Just awful.

Posted by: See-Dubya on July 7, 2005 09:57 AM

What would be an overreaction at this point, seriously? Tossing a few dozen ICBMs in the general direction of Mecca? Because I'm not sure how much longer any arguments against such actions can be mustered.

Posted by: Megan on July 7, 2005 10:01 AM

My stupid browser newspage hasn't even reported it yet. The dumb asses are calling themselves "Secret Organization Group of al Qaeda of Jihad in Europe." Unfortunately, the UK doesn't have the death penalty.

Posted by: on July 7, 2005 10:08 AM

This is a terrible day.

I'm in NYC. Helicopters continue to hover over the Lincoln Tunnel, as they did on 9/11. Riding the subway to work I realized my life is truly in somebody else's hands. It's hard to concentrate here at work. My soul goes out to the English people.

Posted by: ChrisG on July 7, 2005 10:10 AM

Terrible.

And coinciding with both the G8 summit and the trial of an Islamist in London. Expect the left to blame it all on Iraq, though I wouldn't expect the British to react like the Spaniards did.

And I second Megan's sentiments.

Posted by: brak on July 7, 2005 10:10 AM

See-Dub. I just went into the DU discussion boards and those idiots are already blaming Karl Rove.

No, I'm not kidding.

"Conservatives saw the savagery of 9/11 and the attacks...and prepared for war; liberals saw the savagery of the 9/11 attacks and wanted to prepare indictments and offer therapy and understanding for our attackers." -Karl Rove, June 22. And you mean to tell me that this attack is a COINCIDENCE?!?!?!
I'm honestly not sure these folks are sane anymore.

Really.

Posted by: Slublog on July 7, 2005 10:10 AM

Yes, and there's also already a "Jews knew in advance" conspiracy theory floating around. One of the bombs was directly below a hotel Netanyahu was staying in.

Posted by: brak on July 7, 2005 10:12 AM

I'm a Democrat, and I certainly do not see conspiracy in this act. Each side has it's crazies.

Posted by: ChrisG on July 7, 2005 10:14 AM

I've got a Churchill quote as my header, one that I think fits the bill on this tragic day:

"Today we may say aloud before an awe-struck world: We are still masters of our fate. We are still captain of our souls."

Let's captain our souls and master our fates-- we must win this war.
Dave at Garfield Ridge

Posted by: Dave at Garfield Ridge on July 7, 2005 10:14 AM

Poor bastards.

I'm interested in what the British public's reaction will be to this. Historically they are an obstinate, contrary bunch (which I always liked about them) but these days you can't count on anybody jumping a certain way anymore.

Posted by: Alex_fs on July 7, 2005 10:15 AM

Brak -

I fully expect those sentiments will offend someone. But here's the deal: the peaceniks are offended, and thousands of us are dead. Exactly how much longer are we supposed to sit here quietly and take it? What's going to satisfy the "down with Western imperialism" crowd, assuming anything can? When will that lot finally agree to take the war to the enemy? When will they even admit that we all know who the enemy is?

The first person to say "religion of peace" in my hearing, without obvious and heavy irony, will be heading for the emergency ward with several dozen broken bones.

I'll give them "racist backlash."

Posted by: Megan on July 7, 2005 10:18 AM

Condolences and sympathies to our British friends.

I hope they catch the bastards who did it and string them up proper.

Posted by: TallDave on July 7, 2005 10:20 AM

My thoughts run along the same lines as those of Dave at Garfield Ridge; I have Churchill's "London Can Take It" remarks up on my site.

And Tim Worstall has the quote of the day so far:

"Yes, we’ll take an excuse for a day off, throw a sickie. But you threaten us, try to kill us? Kill and injure some of us?

Fuck you, sunshine.

We’ll not be having that. "


Posted by: The Colossus on July 7, 2005 10:20 AM

ChrisG noted: "Each side has it's crazies"

Yeah, but we don't let ours set party policy.

Posted by: Megan on July 7, 2005 10:20 AM

Megan, today, I believe, those who opposed the war in Iraq (seeing it as outside of the war on terror) will push for action in Syria and Iran.

Posted by: ChrisG on July 7, 2005 10:21 AM

I hope you're right, Chris, but you'll understand if history makes me a pessimist.

Posted by: Megan on July 7, 2005 10:22 AM

You are wrong Chris.
Democrats will resist any and all projection of Western power, even if it means allowing our citizens to be blown up occasionally.
They see such attacks as criminal activitynot part of a worldwide conflict.

Furthermore, I supported the war so far, but would not be in support of further ventures in the region until we see some more democratic fruit where we are now.

Posted by: lauraw on July 7, 2005 10:25 AM

Chris, you may be right that Democrats feel that way, but I'm more concerned about your party's leadership. They see the war on terrorism through completely political lenses - always looking for advantage or a way to make the president look bad.

They are assisted and encouraged in this effort by the likes of MoveOn. If Democrats want to be taken seriously on national security matters, they have to start acting serious.

Posted by: Slublog on July 7, 2005 10:27 AM

Chris is dreaming. Nobody's going to change their mind, besides perhaps someone who barely escaped with their life.

If you are a peacenik, the Brits brought this upon themselves. If you're hawkish, it's further evidence we are fighting savages.

With the exception--perhaps--of some peacenik who limped away from a bus cursing those responsible, this will only serve to harden all of us in our positions.

Posted by: spongeworthy on July 7, 2005 10:28 AM

I don't like the stance my party has taken on timeframes for withdrawal from Iraq, etc. Frankly, Biden, Bayh and others are an embarassment when they take this approach. It's tough being a Democrat these days.

Posted by: ChrisG on July 7, 2005 10:29 AM

Why should America & Great Britain be the ones to tackle Syria & Iran? We've already done our part in the GWOT, and I think it's high time our "friends" from the European Union pick up the slack. We'll help out with intelligence & transportation, but I think it's time for German, French & Belgian troops to start kicking down some doors. After all, these asshats sold Syria & Iran most of their weapons systems, so it's only fair to let their troops take most of the casualties from those weapons, right?

In response to the anonymous post earlier that noted that Britain doesn't have the death penalty: it's not OFFICIAL policy, but the SAS and other units like them have a longstanding policy of killing most of their targets instead of capturing them.

Posted by: Russ from Winterset on July 7, 2005 10:35 AM

All:
Can I just come out and say something now? Our (western) culture is better than theirs. Not just different, but better. Stronger, more resilient, and more flexible. More protective of individual rights, and less prone to nihilistic violence. A culture which torments its own people and others based solely on the rants of an un-elected theocracy and without a shred of reason will never rise above "quaint".

That said, is imperialism such a bad thing? I sometimes think the only thing bad about it is the cost in blood and treasure to the imperial power, NOT the imposition of clearly superior values on the conquered.

These opinions are, of course, my own, and don't reflect those of my employer, or anyone who knows or works with me

Posted by: Zorachus on July 7, 2005 10:36 AM

Megan, you are right on with your thinking. I posted a similar view first thing this morning.

Here is a bit:


Brace yourselves for the inevitable cry for restraint and tolerance. After all Islam is a religion of peace…although they are the only ones blowing things up lately. Those things being innocent men, women and children. Funny, I do not recall hearing of Baptists or Methodists blowing up busses or subways. I wonder why that is. But like I said, brace yourself for the drivel that will be directed at those who dare question the peacefulness of Islam. Just ask Van Gogh, the Dutch film director who was killed for daring to question Islam. How’s this for an advertising campaign: Convert to Islam. Our religion is a peaceful religion. If you don’t convert or if you question our peacefulness we will kill you.

Oh yeah, sign me up.

Posted by: WunderKraut on July 7, 2005 10:36 AM

Europe is being converted into an extension of the Arab world. I hope the have the resolve and courage to stand up for themselves and stop it before it is too late. The UK is one of the sane ones left, but even they are selling themselves out in the name of "tolerance."

Posted by: brak on July 7, 2005 10:39 AM

I wish, wish, wish that I could count on the "character" and "resolve" of the Brits, but considering that this is a nation that recently changed the names of the English and French fleets commemorating the Battle of Trafalgar to the "red" and "blue" fleets so as not to hurt anyone's feelings, I cynically expect to see a Spain-like reaction.

In fact, Ace, I'm willing to bet a steak dinner at the restaurant of your choice that by the end of the week we'll see massive anti-Blair, anti-war, anti-Bush protests in central London (along with the obligatory flower memorials at the tube stops and lachrymose Elton John revamping of Candle in The Wind.

I'd love to be proven wrong, but since the KosKidz are already spinning this as a Bush plot, I'm not sanguine.

Posted by: Christopher on July 7, 2005 10:39 AM

I heard that creep Livingstone giving his pc speech that the bombs were aimed at muslims and christians. He just can't state the truth: the fucking muslims did it.

Posted by: on July 7, 2005 10:43 AM

I've just spent some more time at the DU boards and feel I need to detox after reading stuff like this:

We Have To Discuss The Political Implications of This Attack Because....It's politics that caused it. Specifically, it was the mass manipulation of intelligence, lying, and fear-mongering on the part of Bush and Blair that goaded the U.S. and Britain into an illegal war in Iraq. And, folks, there's a price to pay for this, only it won't be Blair and Bush who will pay it. It will be you and me who will pay. We will be the targets of these attacks again and again. The only way to protect ourselves is to remove these neocon, war-mongering, chickenhawks, who believe that they have the God-given right to invade any country on earth, from power. They are making us less safe every day.
Cut and run. It's always frickin cut and run.

Posted by: Slublog on July 7, 2005 10:50 AM

Christopher,

I really hope you're wrong. These people are the descendents of the folks that fought off the Nazis, alone, for a year and a half. If they don't stand up and fight for themselves now, I think it means the death of Britain. It would also mean that we and the Australians are truly alone -- too horrible to contemplate. I can't imagine the British throwing in the towel. But even if they did, I say full speed ahead. If we're truly alone, then let's go down fighting. I'm sure you feel the same way.

And Ace, thanks for the link, man. An Ace-a-lanche.


Posted by: The Colossus on July 7, 2005 10:50 AM

Well...does this mean there will no longer be calls for Israeli restraint? Or will there still be a double standard for that 'shitty little country'?

Posted by: Kin on July 7, 2005 10:52 AM

Off topic for a sec, but that Churchill speech has a really gay line. A bird of freedom chirping in human hearts? The fuck?

Posted by: Megan on July 7, 2005 10:56 AM

Megan, even Churchill knew the importance of putting in a gay line every now and then, to appeal to all the dainty women listening to his speeches.

Present company obviously excluded.

:-)

Cheers,
Dave at Garfield Ridge

Posted by: Dave at Garfield Ridge on July 7, 2005 10:57 AM

C'mon, Dave. A bird. A fucking bird.

Chirping.

In. Your. Heart. About freedom.

It's like something out of Sesame Street.

Posted by: Megan on July 7, 2005 11:02 AM

Or worse, Maya Angelou.

Posted by: Slublog on July 7, 2005 11:04 AM

Well Megan he had to throw in some hopeful imagery to allay the anxieties of the womenfolk.

They get upset with all the "fight" and "unconquered" and "die" talk.

Posted by: ace on July 7, 2005 11:04 AM

Yeah, really, let's cut ol' Winston some slack. The man single-handedly gave us the most quotable fighting words that side of "I've come here to chew bubble gum and kick ass, and I'm all out of bubble gum."

If he wanted the bird to chirp, the man can have his bird chirp.

Cheers,
Dave at Garfield Ridge

Posted by: Dave at Garfield Ridge on July 7, 2005 11:08 AM

Hey, watch it! The women of Britain weren't runnning around asking, "Do you know why the Nazis are mad at us?" No, they were putting out fires in the middle of the night. Digging out their neighbors from the rubble. I need to find a Union Jack quick and fly it in my window.

Posted by: on July 7, 2005 11:11 AM

18 hours ago, Ace said:

"6. And The Slow News Cycle Ain't Helping Either. Occasionally there's an interesting story, but let's face it, the unending Bolton confirmation process doesn't really make for stellar analytical pieces or humor pieces either."

Damn, Ace, you MUST learn to use your powers more carefully . . .

Posted by: quiggs on July 7, 2005 11:12 AM

Don't pin this on me. I was just hoping for something like Tom Cruise saying that Xenu wanted Rosie O'Donell to stop eating donuts.

Posted by: ace on July 7, 2005 11:14 AM

And let's not forget this line from "Churchill II: The Wrath of Winston":

"I'm here to hand out lollipops and asskickings . . . and I'm fresh out of lollipops."

Right before he ripped out Tojo's heart and showed it to him, before he died.

Chirp on, bird of freedom. Chirp on.

Posted by: The Colossus on July 7, 2005 11:18 AM

My quote is:
Nemo nos impune lacessit
Nobody assails us with impunity
- Motto of the Royal Highland Fusiliers

Posted by: Rob@L&R on July 7, 2005 11:22 AM

Terrible terrible terrible.

I pray that from this devastation and bloodshed some small good may come.

I pray that y'all start listening to what the liberals have been saying for the the last 3 1/2 years---that we need to fight AL QAEDA, not wasting men and materials in a for-profit occupation of Iraq.

Will the chickenhawks in the White House get off their asses and go after the people who attacked us?

I hope and pray---but I'm not gonna hold my breath.

Posted by: Don Myers on July 7, 2005 11:22 AM
Posted by: Alex_fs on July 7, 2005 11:24 AM

Cripes, it didn't take the trolls long to bring up the 'chickenhawk' argument, did it?

Posted by: Slublog on July 7, 2005 11:26 AM

I thought the bird of freedom thing was very apt and touching.
Jackasses.

Megan doesn't like
Winston Churchill's turn of phrase;
Bob Dole's cock, line 2.

Posted by: lauraw on July 7, 2005 11:27 AM

"wasting men and materials in a for-profit occupation of Iraq"

When exactly am I going to see some of these alleged profits? Halliburton stock hasn't exactly been spiking either. Is Kofi Annan on the board or something? And how do you waste materials in a for-profit operation?

You lefties want to pile on so much you don't even bother to try to make sense anymore.

Posted by: Megan on July 7, 2005 11:28 AM

Don,

Just point out Al Qaeda-Stan on a map and we'll invade it.

Can't?

Then shut the fuck up, asshole.

Posted by: ace on July 7, 2005 11:28 AM

I'm a brit living in the US, I'm not from London and don't know anyone in London.

This will result in more fighting talk from Brits who already support the WoT.

Unfortunately, with the BBC, those with the opinion that it is our own fault will be able to shout the loudest. The quote from DU ignores one thing, these dickheads were bombing and killing way before the war in Iraq. These dipshits have such a short (and selective) memory it is unforgivable.
These are the assholes who would believe that Hitler would not be bombing London night after night if only we hadn't gone to war against them. Their grasp on reality is pitiful.

The next gathering at Finsbury Park should be interesting.


Posted by: DelphiGuy on July 7, 2005 11:28 AM

Typical crap from Don Myers. Get this through your head you shallow thinking asswipe, this was the act of murderous scumbags who need no excuse for their acts of monstrosity. Try acting like a human being and blame those responsible rather than like the asshat who glibly claims that 'she had it coming, did you see what she was wearing?'.

The English will be in my prayers today.

Posted by: Defense Guy on July 7, 2005 11:30 AM

Will the chickenhawks in the White House get off their asses and go after the people who attacked us?

You know, like when we invaded North Africa after the Japanese bombed us at Pearl Harbor.

P.S. - Folks that can't, or won't, see the connection just aren't too bright.

Posted by: Rocketeer on July 7, 2005 11:31 AM

You can shove that 'chickenhawk' shit up your ass, Don.

Where did you stand on our war in Bosnia and Kosovo, Don? You know, the one right before Afghanistan, the one fought to remove a belligerant dictator on what has since proven to have been faulty intelligence, Don? Or are your lips so firmly latched on to Bill Clinton's cock that you can't answer?

The Left surrendered its credibility and its conscience a long time ago, Don. All that remains is the human garbage, like you, sniping from the sidelines. Grow the fuck up.

Posted by: Phinn on July 7, 2005 11:31 AM

I pray that from this devastation and bloodshed some small good may come.

Yes, I'm sure you are praying really hard for a certain outcome.

Posted by: lauraw on July 7, 2005 11:31 AM

Will the chickenhawks in the White House get off their asses and go after the people who attacked us?

And when we do, I'm sure the left will be right behind the president, cheering him on.

Right.

Jackass.

Posted by: Slublog on July 7, 2005 11:36 AM

Whoops. Hit the button too soon.

Continued...

Because if the left can't see that we're already doing that and there's a connection between the murderous regimes that sponsor terror and the fanatical asswipes who actually blow up innocent civilians, then you're not stupid, you're willfully ignorant.

Posted by: Slublog on July 7, 2005 11:37 AM

What's a good Brit product we can buy to show support for our brethren in London? I thought about Altoids, but that seems trite.

Hundreds or thousands of bloggers and blog readers waving a distinctly British product would be quite a sight, I think, and much better than that shitty "I'm sorry" left-wing site.

Posted by: rho on July 7, 2005 11:41 AM

Mark my words, this kind of thing will happen again and again. And one of these days, the terrorists will get a nuke.

When New York or LA or Chicago vanishes in a mushroom cloud, what then? Will the liberals still preach a "peaceful response"?

Posted by: Log Cabin on July 7, 2005 11:42 AM

A Union Jack will probably do just fine.

Posted by: lauraw on July 7, 2005 11:43 AM

I was going to post this comment about an hour ago, before my server went down. I still think it's a legitimate question:

Anybody care to take a guess as to how the moonbats convened in Glasgow are going to react to this? I'm guessing they'll be pretty quick to blame the bombings on Chimpy McHitlerburton.

Posted by: utron on July 7, 2005 11:44 AM

Well they'll have to be careful to look real sad for the cameras Utron, but other than that you are probably correct.

Posted by: lauraw on July 7, 2005 11:46 AM

They get upset with all the "fight" and "unconquered" and "die" talk.

"Fighting" talk is sweet
Strong men killing the bad guys
My girly heart melts


Posted by: Lipstick on July 7, 2005 11:48 AM


"A Union Jack will probably do just fine."

Google images for "Union Jack" and you'll find various jpegs that can be posted. I've got one flying at my site.

Posted by: bob on July 7, 2005 11:49 AM

How long before Cedarford blames the jews?

Posted by: brak on July 7, 2005 11:49 AM

Gee, Don, do you ever NOT recommend rolling over and taking it in the ass? Oh wait, your're that Don.

Posted by: on July 7, 2005 11:54 AM

Rich Lowry posted this in The Corner:

A few quick thoughts from a British friend: 1) Everyone knew something like this would happen; 2) It was almost certainly planned to coincide with the G-8 summit. The uncertain timing of a British election makes it hard to undertake long-term planning for an attack around one--so G-8 was natural target instead; 3) London won't buckle. It withstood the Blitz and the IRA bombings; 4) Although the toll is terrible, the attacks weren't spectacular or massive enough to rock Britain to its core the way you assume the terrorists wanted; 5) There should be retaliation. Find a terror camp somewhere and hit it. Terrorists should, for these purposes, be treated as one nation, and all should be held responsible for any one attack.

I like that last bit. A clear, concise explanation of our current operation in Iraq and how future operations should be viewed.

Posted by: TheDude on July 7, 2005 12:00 PM

Union Jack would be good, but I was thinking of something more directly benefiting the British economy. It's a very capitalist reaction, which may be why I liked it so much.

Posted by: rho on July 7, 2005 12:11 PM

5) There should be retaliation.

I'd like to see all those mosques raided. Anyone whose papers aren't signed and dotted kicked out of the country with their familes. Anyone breaking the law no matter how de minimis arrested. Just clean that shit out already.

Posted by: on July 7, 2005 12:13 PM

Don, I hope you won't take this the wrong way or anything, but fuck you very much.

What terrorist organization do you think Zarqawi is part of, you twit? The Girl Scouts?

Posted by: Dave in Texas on July 7, 2005 12:19 PM

Dang, I can't think of any British product other than Altoids. And I sure as hell am not buying Marmite.

Tea, maybe?

Posted by: Slublog on July 7, 2005 12:22 PM

I presume Douchebag Donny has been banned, yes?

Posted by: zetetic on July 7, 2005 12:24 PM

Good idea July.
If they can't live in decent society, absorbing its benefits, without simultaneously trying to destroy it, they have a clear choice; plane or boat?

And please, no one give me the tolerance speech. All Muslims are listening to the same incitements from their Imams and not speaking out against it. They are collaborators who hate us and hope the terrorists win, and their silence proves it.
How many people showed up at that muslims against terrorists rally? Nine?

Posted by: lauraw on July 7, 2005 12:25 PM

Beefeater Gin?

Posted by: brak on July 7, 2005 12:25 PM

Yeah, Tea has too many American Revolution overtones.

Posted by: lauraw on July 7, 2005 12:26 PM

Geez, Slublog - is it really that difficult? Buy beer!!! Bass, Samuel Smiths, Fullers, and Boddington's, to name a few.

Posted by: Geoff on July 7, 2005 12:27 PM

Geoff...ah, thanks for the names.

I was googling "British beers" and having trouble, as I'm a domestic lager kind of guy (with the exception of Guinness)

Any recommendations on a good British lager?

Posted by: Slublog on July 7, 2005 12:30 PM

If you want to support the British financially at this time, why not just give them money?

Seriously. Call up the British consulate, ask who you should write the check to (if a relief fund hasn't already been set up I'll eat my hat), write the check. It's as simple as that.

Don't buy stuff you don't want or need of which a tiny fraction will actually get back to the British economy. Send flowers if you want to feel good but send money if you want to help.

Posted by: Sodium Warthog on July 7, 2005 12:32 PM

Gin I can get behind.

Posted by: rho on July 7, 2005 12:34 PM

Slublog - no problem, I just looked in the fridge. I'm an ale/bitters man myself, so I'm not the best to ask about lagers. Samuel Smiths Pale Ale, though, might tickle your palate. It's like $8 -$9 a 4-pack, so you don't have to drink very much to show your support.

Posted by: Geoff on July 7, 2005 12:37 PM

Double-post to note these gin brands: Beefeater, Bombay, Gordon's, Plymouth, and Tanqueray. Bombay makes great martinis. Italy is still a fair supporter of the WoT, so a martini would not be out-of-place. For real Brit-backing support, Beefeater and Schweppes tonic. Shit, have a fucking Dr Pepper, too, since it's a Cadbury Schweppes product now.

Posted by: rho on July 7, 2005 12:41 PM

I presume Douchebag Donny has been banned, yes?

No, he's probably puking on someone else's blog.

Posted by: on July 7, 2005 12:45 PM
Posted by: rho on July 7, 2005 12:55 PM

This is a horrible, sad day.

Our only consolation is the knowlege that the west (America, Australia, and the UK) are fighting this enemy and will continue to do so until we win.

I can't even imagine what people are feeling who lost a loved one today. Dad goes to work to make money for the family and then never comes home because some lunatic cleric issued a goddamned fatwa... I can't even get my brain around it.

There is no misunderstanding here. This enemy is just evil. And that is the root cause of all this.

Posted by: SJKevin on July 7, 2005 01:02 PM

Crap, I thought I closed that.

Posted by: rho on July 7, 2005 01:03 PM

ACE - Ouoting that scumbag, the fake Churchill is like taking a dump into the aquairium, it just stinks up the place. He doesn't deserve to be quoted at a time like this. He gets off on shit like this, why aid him in it?

Posted by: 72 Brits on July 7, 2005 01:32 PM

Don, I'm not going to be nasty to you. I have nothing against you and I'm sure you're a nice guy.

But Al Qaeda didn't attack us. Bin Laden didn't attack us. Islam attacked us. Yes, the President calls it a 'War on Terror' in an attempt to pacify multicultural wusses. But it's a war against the twisted degenerate Arab Muslim culture that produces this garbage.

The priorities in this war are as follows:

  1. Cultural and political change in the Middle East.
  2. Military overpowering of enemy forces.
  3. Criminal justice methods.
Iraq is the beach head in the attempt to change the nature of the Middle East. The goal is to do away with Islam or, at the very least, to water it down and weaken it's significance as the ACLU has been so successful with in this country with respect to Judaism and Christianity.

Iraq also provides a handy tool for attracting Iranian and Syrian fighters to 'come to poppa' for a whipping. Iraq is critical in addressing g0als 1 and 2 above.

Posted by: PlacidPundit on July 7, 2005 01:33 PM

"No one can condone acts of violence aimed at working people going about their daily lives. They have not been a party to, nor are they responsible for, the decisions of their government. They are entirely innocent and we condemn those who have killed or injured them."
This is a quote from George Galloway, the British terrorist sympathiser, on todays attacks. As much as I agree with him on the innocence of those killed, he makes the Freudian slip that he believes ordinanry people have nothing to do with politics. Kinda throws the whole government "of the people, for the people" notion under the bus, no? Typical leftist elitist snobbery.

Posted by: on July 7, 2005 02:17 PM

Crap. I posted the comment on Galloway but forgot to put my info on it.

Posted by: brainy435 on July 7, 2005 02:29 PM

While I appreciate your courtesy, Placid, I have to STRONGLY disagree with you.

First of all, al Qaeda DID attack us. Bin Laden DID attack us. We know this for a fact. Claiming otherwise is just crazy talk.

Secondly, "that way madness lies." We cannot kill every Muslim in the Middle East. And even if we could, then what? Kill every Muslim in Europe? In the United States? The US isn't in the business of genocide, Placid, and I'd hate to see us start now.

Thirdly, you can't wage war on a culture---that's what our enemies are trying to do. And it's not working. Besides, we are BETTER than they are, so we have to act like it.

Finally, blaming every Muslim for al Qaeda is like blaming every Christian for the KKK. Al Qaeda (and the Klan, for that matter) are insane terrorists, not men and women of faith.

Posted by: Don Myers on July 7, 2005 02:30 PM

Donna Meyers,

First of all, al Qaeda DID attack us. Bin Laden DID attack us. We know this for a fact. Claiming otherwise is just crazy talk.

Apparently you are too dense to know the point he was making.

Secondly, "that way madness lies." We cannot kill every Muslim in the Middle East. And even if we could, then what? Kill every Muslim in Europe? In the United States? The US isn't in the business of genocide, Placid, and I'd hate to see us start now.

We need to kill every Muslim that proclaims that they will continue to follow Jihad and terrorism. If that is everyone of them, so be it. Your statement makes it seem like you believe that they all are.

Thirdly, you can't wage war on a culture---that's what our enemies are trying to do. And it's not working. Besides, we are BETTER than they are, so we have to act like it.

So you would let the enemy continue their war on our culture but you would not attack theirs which incidently is the whole basis for their attack on ours. You are so compassionate, Donna.

Finally, blaming every Muslim for al Qaeda is like blaming every Christian for the KKK. Al Qaeda (and the Klan, for that matter) are insane terrorists, not men and women of faith.

First, it is not just Al Qaeda. Heard of Hezballah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc? Care to tell me what the Muslims are doing to stop this terrorism instead of supporting them with faux charities, safe havens, Islamic education. Donna it is apparent you were born without the gene that allows humans to make logical comparisons.


Posted by: Dman on July 7, 2005 03:46 PM

Gin, Shmin.

Scotch is the way to go. Single Malt.

That out the way...

I'm all in favor of looking at root causes. Those being the Wahabi Wackos coming out of Saudi Arabia. I know it's only the tip of the iceberg, but starting with the money men and the ideological base of the enemy is the right way to start.
Enough mollycoddling of the house of Saud. Tell 'em to put up or shut up. And then go kick their asses out of pure principle.
And stop all this multiculti BS. Treat these people like the enemy. Don't be nice and thoughtful. Do things the Chicago way.

Posted by: Kin on July 7, 2005 03:51 PM

you can't wage war on a culture

The hell you say.

So what are the powers of the current Emperor of Japan?
And please enlighten me as to the condition of our vast southern plantations and negro slaves? Why do I not see them toiling in the cotton and suffering the lash?

Perhaps you need to make a distinction between 'culture' and 'ideology.'

You most certainly can smash a murderous ideology, kill its adherents, and discourage others from going that way ever again.

Posted by: lauraw on July 7, 2005 05:38 PM

Question for any left wing nutjob reading this.

You guys say that being in Iraq is distracting us from the real WoT and bin Laden specifically... sort of implying that there are no terrorists to be found there.

You then go on to say that the recent bombings in London are a direct result of being in Iraq and that we should pull out all forces immediately so as to avoid any further "insurgent" "retaliations".

My question is this....

If Iraq has very little (if anything) to do with the War on Terror, then why would terrorists feel the need to get back at us for being there....?

Posted by: Chad on July 7, 2005 05:59 PM

First of all, al Qaeda DID attack us. Bin Laden DID attack us. We know this for a fact. Claiming otherwise is just crazy talk.

Perhaps I should have been more clear. My point was that al Qaeda and bin Laden do not exist in a vacuum. They are very small cogs in a much larger machine. Taking them out would not do anything to eliminate a problem that has been plaguing the world since the 8th century.

The murder didn't start with America, or even with the crusades. Islam has been a steaming-pile-of-crap religion since it began. Everything we're seeing now was visited on the Jews and Zoroastrians of Persia and Arabia a very long time ago. It's modus operandi and will continue to be no matter whether there is an Osama bin Laden or not. He's pretty much irrelevant.

What is relevant, however, is changing the cultural and political cesspool that grows this scum.

Secondly, "that way madness lies." We cannot kill every Muslim in the Middle East. And even if we could, then what? Kill every Muslim in Europe? In the United States?

That's exactly my point. It's not practical to kill them all. So we can either just take on al Qaeda, which is a very inadequate band-aid, or we can try to secure a more complete victory by changing Arab-Muslim culture.

Thirdly, you can't wage war on a culture

Certainly you can. We ourselves successfully did it after WWII in both Germany and Japan, completely replacing deeply entrenched hostile societies with pacifists. The Germans had built a warrior-myth from a 9 A.D. battle in which Arminius pulled off a magnificent defeat of 3 entire Roman legions (under Varus) in the Teutoburg forest. For the next 1900 years, Germans continued to be convinced that they were divinely gifted as the greatest warriors on Earth. The Nazis drew directly on this tradition in crafting their destructive racist philosophy. Germany now looks on their former warrior myth with disgust.

Time fails me to enter into the Japanese story. But it is very similar. The point is that the best way to insulate ourselves from destructive ideologies is to eliminate them. Cultural change is generally the only thing that can accomplish such a goal. And cultural change is even more critical in the Middle East than in Germany. Our best approach to this is to help clear the Middle East of the misrule and abuse that poisons the minds of 4 year old children with Islamic mythology.

Besides, we are BETTER than they are, so we have to act like it.

Amusing that you should mention this. I was just having a conversation with a friend yesterday about this topic. Some on both Left and Right have taken their cues from the founding Puritans, who held a philosophy that America was the new Israel—a nation especially selected by God to be an example to the rest of the world. That's all silly of course—both from a Christian and an atheist standpoint. But the Left constantly wrings it's hands over our failure to reach moral perfection.

At any rate, there's nothing wrong with an attempt to replace threatening cultures with more friendly alternatives anyway.

Finally, blaming every Muslim for al Qaeda is like blaming every Christian for the KKK. Al Qaeda (and the Klan, for that matter) are insane terrorists, not men and women of faith.

Actually, I didn't 'blame every Muslim for al Qaeda.' I blamed Arab-Muslim society for al Qaeda. The kind of poisonous mythology taught to children in the Middle East is the source of bin Laden's rage. And forced submission to Islam is part of that culture. It is very much a matter of religious faith. It's time to put an end to it.

Posted by: PlacidPundit on July 8, 2005 01:43 AM
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