PBS Newshour had Ray "There's Got to be a Morning After" McGovern on for a long spot as well, like he was some normal analyst. He did manage to embarrass himself a bit, however, by constantly making vocal noises while the "counterpoint" guy (another ex CIAer but from the Heritage Institute) talked.

McGovern is a spook version of Noam Chomsky.

It always comes back to the Jooooooooooooooooooooooooooos!

To pre-empt Cedarford:

Ace, you Tel Aviv puppet. Can't a man hand out pamphlets exposing the World Zionist Conspiracy without being labeled an Anti-Semite?

/Cedarford off

I have no doubt that Israel has different interests than we do, and of course they're interested in enlisting us to their cause.

As every country is.

I guess there's a way to say this without being an anti-Semite. But I do think an awful lot of this is motivated by anti-Semitism.

Colin Quinn (maybe next week, he says!) had an non-anti-Semitic hypothetical-- what if we could end this war just by giving up Israel, letting the Arabs push them into the sea?

That's hard-hearted and self-interested and I don't object to the question automatically. Sometimes you have to fuck someone over.

But I really am tired of hearing how terrible the Israelis/Zionists/Jews in general are, and how they're using us.

Grow up. Everyone uses everyone.

"Everyone uses everyone."

Tell me about it... After a weekend with Miss Conservative T-shirt, I feel more sapped and limp than a worn out, raggedy, beat-up washcloth.

Knemon -

I believe I can speak for myself and many, many Americans just fine.

I pointed out the Democratic event was noteworthy in another thread because it signals America is now easing off being the last country in the world, including Israel, where it has been politically forbidden to criticize Israel. Now, the Democrats at the meeting were from the far liberal wing of their Party, but 10% of Democrats in Congress were represented at the meeting, nevertheless. And willing to break the "no criticism of Israel" taboo. Or the past reluctance to subject it's dedicated lobbyists, neocon promoters, and Zionist moneymen to scrutiny. (Only Israel-backers are shielded by law from having to register as foreign lobbyists)

The consequences to the Democrats are low. Liberal Jews care more about gay marriage, progresive causes, the ACLU, and never forgetting past Republican wars against the Communist Party to ever vote Republican. Despite Bush's total devotion to what Israel wants as a good believing Christian Zionist should - Jews still voted for Kerry with 3 out of every 4 votes - and big Jewish donors still funded 50% of the DNC's coffers and roughly the same with the 527s....Even in Israel, half the population is not Zionist, but are liberals similar to Barney Frank, Chuck Schumer, Barbara Boxer.

And this was followed a few days later by the announcement that all American military technology transferred to Israel is now under American supervision and vetting to prevent our untrustworthy "Special Friend" from sneaking around and surrepticiously transferring that technology to make a buck. Israel had a long history of that, starting with the Soviet Union and after several significant violations with China, including selling our F-16 avionics & electronics, the Patriot Missile system radar and targeting package - Israel was told it was to submit to supervision or lose access. We have already cut them out of Joint Strike Fighter development due to past backstabbing, reserving partnership for more trustworthy nations like Turkey, the UK, Netherlands, Singapore, Japan, Canada, Spain, Poland.

Everyone uses us for different reasons, though. The Saudis use us to keep their misogynistic, theocratic regime in Mercedes. The europeans use us to keep their welfare states in place while we spend our resources to keep them safe.
Israel uses us to keep from being exterminated.

Giving up on Israel will not make the islamofacsists stop. It's only one obstacle in their way to us.

Cedarford: I think I made that point more succinctly above.

You know, if I were the suspicious sort, the entire incident would look like it was set up to allow Howard Dean to look centrist and reasonable by giving him something other than Republicans to deplore.

But that would require the intention subversion of the Democratic Party's moral authority. You're right, that's just crazy.

Sorry, Cedarford, I'm not interested in reading your nonsense.

Explain this to me, though: how is "criticizing Israel" (the thing you claim you're doing, and it's so BRAVE and HEROIC to do so, what with the supercovert Mossad death squads on the lookout for you and all)

and handing out "Jews stayed away" pamphlets the same thing?

Don't you see that it's because people like you view Jews as some alien species, and a Jewish American as very much Jew first, Zionist second, maybe American fifth, that Israel acts the way it does?

Do you think the Jews stayed away from the WTC? Yes or no, asshole.

No Tall Dave, it's about America being free to scrutinize and them to criticize nations that the American public thinks are harming America's national interests through too much clout and palm-greasing of America's elected officials & businessmen.

Given the volume of criticism about Saudi Arabia, France, China, Germany, Russia, screwed up Muslim nations the American public is free to engage in......

It's clearly not "all about the Jooooooz" as you claim.

It is about regaining the freedom to finally permit average Americans to criticize any nation or it's backers working against the interest of the American public without fear of speech codes or being smeared as an "anti-Chinese racist"; "Islamophobic", "Francophobe", or "anti-Semite".

Just as America slowly but surely has surmounted the speech codes once blocking any criticism of inner city black culture, feminism - as we are feeling freer to publically note the deficiencies of the "Religion of Peace", we are now joining the rest of the world's democracies in allowing criicism of Israel or Zionism to be made part of the debate. It's about what is best for America...

Sorry, Cedarford, I'm not interested in reading your nonsense.

Hey, that's MY line!

But you left out calling him a wanker.

Later,
bbeck

Why does Herr Cedarford always claim that no one is allowed to criticize Israel in America, and then follow up by criticizing Israel. And of course completely ignores how the (jooo-owned) media runs a story about the poor Jordanians (whoops they call themselves Palestinans now) are being fenced out, shot at, raped & butchered by those evil Israelis.

Or does he not view that as criticism?
What does it take to qualify as criticizing Israel in Cedarfuck's mind then, calling for yellow stars to identify zionazi filth? Seperate showers with all the zyklon B you can buy?

If you wish to contribute to the cause of France, or Australia or Canada for that matter - and give money to the registered lobby of the country you like, three things apply:

1. Your name appears on a list of contributors to another foreign country that the American public can scrutinize.

2. You cannot claim your contribution as "tax-exempt". Heck, even domestic lobbies working for a direct domestic political vs. charitable cause cannot claim tax-emptions.

3. If you yourself meet with politicians, you are required to tell them that you are a registered foreign lobbyist - and the reason you want the preferential trade subclause is ....Wow! Because the foreign country your lobby is supporting wants it.

Except for Jewish-Americans and Israel.

Chip in to Israel's lobby, and a "special exception for special friends" applies.

All the money you give is tax-exempt by a clever loophole inserted by American Zionists. There is no list of contributors made publicly available for scrutiny under law. And if you work for a Zionist Lobby, you don't have to say that you are working for Israel, as opposed to other nations where you are legally bound to declare you are an agent of a foreign power.

I, unlike Knemon, bbeck, Spewfan, and Jack M - know which nation has my full loyalties.

Chew on that, Knemon. To me, folks like you are mild traitors and true assholes if you put another country's interests over America. You seek to use the 30 year old strategy of stifling, intimidating, and marginalizing critics of Israeli policies. That tactic once worked in other nations, but ultimately failed....because you can't get people in a country to believe that all those with valid criticisms of influence, Zionism are all bigots or conspiracy nuts.

Now you are down to your last country where criticism of Israel or Zionism has been verboten, and the cracks in the wall you and your sort have placed between the American people and the true facts are widening. America is where France or Canada or the UK was 20 years ago....kow-towing to the World's Greatest Victim Group....but questioning their unequivocable support as more and more Zionist transgressions and lies emerged.

Oh, gee, Devore, I forgot all about you and your dubious loyalties!

Sorry!

Ah, what would a day at Ace's place be without Cedarbigot's non-stop Jew-bashing? Sometimes I actually think Cedarjew is going to make it all the way to the end of the day without refexively spewing the type of racial and religious hatred that'd get you imprisoned in Europe, and then ... boom! ... there he goes again. Regular as a guard's watch in a concentration camp. He just can't seem to stop himself. I guess that as long as the Cedarliars are out pimping their non-stop Jew-baiting crapola, all remains well in Elders-of-Zionville.

Aw the guy who has to tie his arm down to keep it from doing a sieg heil says I have dubious loyalites.

How sweet.

Howard, unfortunately, Cedarford's nation and government to which HE holds allegiance no longer exists. If it did, maybe we could take it to war and beat it...again. Oh well, we must all just enjoy the regular beatings he gets here instead.

Later,
bbeck

Okay, Cedarford. Let's throw Israel to the wolves. Let the you-know-whoslims push them "into the sea."

Then what? War's over? Kumbayah? Everyone goes home happy, the jihad is over, peace and love reign and rainbows sprout from the ayatollahs' assholes?

Knemon, naturally then Cedarford would find a reason that the diaspora had to be destroyed...but only because of what those evil Jews do, not out of antisemitism!

Noel at Hog On Ice posted these superb tidbits;

"And what is anti-Zionist? It is the denial to the Jewish people of a fundamental right that we justly claim for the people of Africa and freely accord all other nations of the Globe. It is discrimination against Jews, my friend, because they are Jews. In short, it is antisemitism."

"The antisemite rejoices at any opportunity to vent his malice. The times have made it unpopular, in the West, to proclaim openly a hatred of the Jews. This being the case, the antisemite must constantly seek new forms and forums for his poison. How he must revel in the new masquerade! He does not hate the Jews, he is just 'anti-Zionist'!"

"My friend, I do not accuse you of deliberate antisemitism. I know you feel, as I do, a deep love of truth and justice and a revulsion for racism, prejudice, and discrimination. But I know you have been misled--as others have been--into thinking you can be 'anti-Zionist' and yet remain true to these heartfelt principles that you and I share."

"Let my words echo in the depths of your soul: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--make no mistake about it."--Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr., 1967

Hah, Lauraw! I figured you of all people would know that lying comes as easy to a Zionist as breathing.

The whole King thing is a Jewish fabrication. And hardly surprising given the arrogance of the Zionists.

From the ones that once served Stalin's propaganda organs he finally let go to Israel to come up with Zionist codswallop like "an empty land for a people with no land:; "Secret Arab radio broadcasts made them flee in 1948"; "Arabs were the initial attackers in 1956, 1967!!"

But the old hoary lies weren't enough so a rather stupid but well-heeled and well connected Rabbi ran the "anti-Zionism=anti-Semitism MLK scam in the late 90's in conjunction with a Jewish-owned publisher.

The whole speech was readily picked up by MLK scholars as phony as a 3-dollar bill from the style and content of the message, as well as that Jews who were associated with King and the Communist Party would have relished getting that speech out earlier.

CAMERA, a Jewish dominated organization, caught wind of the speech fabrication issue being discussed in the MLK scholar community and decided to out the dumb Rabbi and his confederates before a non-Jewish owned media outlet here or in Europe outed him, or before the fabrication was exposed in a published academic paper.

The King family originally thought the "discovered" paper equating anti-Zionism to anti-Semitism was true, and then were plenty pissed and wanted "damage money" - which since the Rabbi came from one of the more illustrious and wealthy of the Top NYC Jewish families - was readily paid - rumors of several million bucks were needed to propitate the angry Kings.

All that would have been hushed as just another clumsy Zionist lie - except that lots of people were angry that Zionists were manipulating the memory of their beloved MLK for their own ends and because the whole hoax got out on the Internet and fervent Zionists spread it thinking it was true. In the black community, this fabricated speech of MLK is cited as yet another reason for mistrust of Democrat Party Jews..

You should dig a little deeper Cedarturd.

From CAMERA's website

CAMERA ALERT: Letter by Martin Luther King a Hoax

"We must inform you that “Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend” (see at bottom of alert) allegedly written by Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., is apparently a hoax, although, the basic message of the letter was indeed, without question, spoken by Martin Luther King, Jr. in a 1968 appearance at Harvard, where he said: “When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You are talking anti-Semitism.”

Master of None -

Ah, fake but true...like the CBS National Guard memos.

So the fake speech concocted by Zionists reflects what they think King would have said if he had written the fabricated document, just like Killian would have written the Guard memos if he could have found the time or would have said they were "basically true" if he had lived.

This Zionist defense of yours is as bad as CBS's after getting caught in a lie. And since Zionists are pathological liars, I wouldn't be surprised if some are still posting the MLK fake knowing it is fake. And we all know that Zionists, once caught red-handed in a lie, attempt to reconstruct the lie into something else they claim is "basically true".

We will never know what King would have said if he had lived. He was beholden to Jews for the money they gave him, and said kind words about Jews now and then...but he also got in real trouble with the FBI because the Jews closest to him in the 50s and early 60's turned out to be Communists. And King approved of the late 60s purge of the Jews trying to control the NAACP and the SLC.

There is also the matter of King, in the last years of his life, becoming a strong opponent of both the Vietnam War and strong advocate for the rights of indigenous 3rd World peoples over their oppressors. While again, we will never know, some of Kings closest associates have said he would have opposed the Zionist's colonization drive into Gaza and the West Bank that happened after he died..

And the off-handed remarks at Harvard to a question posed by someone in the audience were not recorded, but stated as what a Jewish associate of King's at the appearance remembered what he said. Not that a Zionist would ever lie, of course!

Seriously, Cedarford, what's the deal with you and Israel? The history of the world is full of people's who invaded someone else's land, beat the crap out of them and settled down. The losers either died out, moved away or made peace and assimilated.

What the Jews did after WWII only makes sense- if a tribe of people is spread out all over several continents, and just narrowly survived being marked for destruction, why not find someplace to concentrate and consolidate?

As for the rest of the world hating America because we support Israel, so what? The rest of the world is going to hate us anyway. Any country with more than 10% Muslim population will hate us no matter what.

We are the infidels. We broadcast images of scantily-clad women, acting boldly like prostitutes, into their TV sets, movie theatres, computers, etc. We publish blasphemous books and newspapers.

Plus, like I said before, there's the unspoken reason for hating us- we are the world's most successful nation. We enjoy a more rewarding lifestyle than anyone else. It is only natural to be jealous of our success.

The US is full of special interest groups who are constantly pulling and tugging at the government's pursestrings to increase their little shares of the pie. If the Jews are an organized special interest group who make it their job to keep several billion dollars a year flowing to Israel, who is that any different than the farm subsidy lobby, who is ten times as successful? Or the environmentalists, who have driven the cost of gasoline up because they have torpedoed all attempts to increase domsetic refining capacity? Or the defense contractors, who spill more loose change every day on the sidewalk than what we send to Israel in a year?

Just seems like you're overly focused on a very minor part of what's happening today.

" On March 25, 1968, less than two weeks before his tragic death, he spoke out with clarity and directness stating, “peace for Israel means security, and we must stand with all our might to protect its right to exist, its territorial integrity. I see Israel as one of the great outposts of democracy in the world, and a marvelous example of what can be done, how desert land can be transformed into an oasis of brotherhood and democracy. Peace for Israel means security and that security must be a reality.”

From Congressman John Lewis's House website
"I have a Dream" for peace in the Middle East King's special bond with Israel

I'm sorry for repeating a post I found somewhere else without verifying it; that was irresponsible. Whether MLK actually agreed in substance with the false quotes attributed to him is no excuse.

I have noticed that thing posts more when we entertain him. When we had that little blackout going on, he was far less frequent of a troll.

I'm gonna resume ignoring him. Anybody with me? Its not like being proven wrong time and time again teaches him anything.

He's just here for the bashing, lets not give it to him.

"We will never know what King would have said if he had lived. He was beholden to Jews for the money they gave him, and said kind words about Jews now and then"

WOW. Every day it gets worse. You are beyond parody.

"Just seems like you're overly focused on a very minor part of what's happening today."

There's a clinical term for this, I think :)

(ococococococococococococococo...)

Dogstar writes:

What the Jews did after WWII only makes sense .............why not find someplace to concentrate and consolidate?

Except that after WWII, because of the Nazi lebensraum policy and the Japs colonizing effort, the Geneva Conventions were amended to prohibit colonization. Israel signed that in 1949 as a condition of joining the UN...then violated it when it started it's Settlements Policy in the 70's..claiming it wasn't "really" colonizing so much as "joining with the Arabs for mutual benefit & peace".

As for the rest of the world hating America because we support Israel, so what? The rest of the world is going to hate us anyway.

America once had many friends and allies. They are a good thing. Others paid for most of the WWII costs and Gulf War costs. Think about the joy of going it alone as your kids pay off the 200 billion and growing bill the US is footing almost solely and taking 95% of non-Iraqi casualties.....as a small part of what our blind support of Israel reaps for the US. Allies really matter, especially when we are engaged in a global war on radical Islam where the Islamoids organize and work their plots mostly outside the USA. And we need allies as China rises..

Any country with more than 10% Muslim population will hate us no matter what.

No, as recently as 35 years ago Americans were well-liked and well regarded in most Muslim countries and it was safe for Americans to live and work there.

Like I said before, there's the unspoken reason for hating us- we are the world's most successful nation. We enjoy a more rewarding lifestyle than anyone else. It is only natural to be jealous of our success.

That is just arrogant American jingoism speaking. Japan, Singapore, Thailand, China, Canada, and most European countries rather like their own nation and think it is successful and have no wish to shape it as a clone of America. The gap in productivity, standard of living, predominance of cultural exports was even higher in the 50's and 60's - but we weren't hated overseas, then..Our policies, not who we are, formed the basis of why others dislike us.

The US is full of special interest groups who are constantly pulling and tugging at the government's pursestrings to increase their little shares of the pie. If the Jews are an organized special interest group who make it their job to keep several billion dollars a year flowing to Israel, who is that any different than the farm subsidy lobby, who is ten times as successful?

Well, yes! One group is trying to affect domestic policy for a group of Americans, the other is an agent for a foreign power devoted to advancing it's wealth and interests - sometimes to the detriment of America's interests and economic well-being.

Your probably right lauraw, its just that cedardouche's philosphy is EVIL.
And I keep hearing a few choice phrases about always confronting evil in my head...

Still it's not like anyone on this site agrees with the turd. Whenever someones who doesn't know any better starts agreeing with a "reasonable" cedarnazi point, you regulars start telling them not to go there.

Argh such a dilemna. Ignore the screaming naked 3 year old in the middle of theliving room, or tell him to shut up, at which point he starts pooping on the coffee table.

Actually, you have a bigger problem, Howard. As the American public becomes educated in all the Zionist lies and myths told to past generations of Americans, blind support of Israel as a beacon of democracy will lessen as they realize the racist nature of Zionism and how they were lied to for so many years by Zionists.

The MLK fabrication that Lauraw wittingly or unwittingly put out as "proof" that anti-Zionism=anti-Semitism might have actually worked for decades as a tool of deception not too long ago. Jewish-controlled media would have just run it as true and ignored all "letters to the editor" saying it was fake. Now, you have easy fact-checking and easy proof when a Lauraw attempts to disseminate pro-Zionist fakery.

I don't hold much warmth in my heart for Muslims in the USA, but as Emmanuel Cellar and Co 1965 Immigration Reform Act opened our Borders and let millions of Muslims in - The Muzzies are doing a bang-up job purging Zionist lies and myths from school textbooks and forcing a "balanced" ME perspective be tought in school and universities. Also, as they continue increasing their power, wealth and numbers - they become a countervailing political force in America against the old "carte blanche" whatever Israel wants, faction in Congress.

Just like as happened in Canada and France.

"The Muzzies are doing a bang-up job purging Zionist lies and myths from school textbooks"

Oh yes, lets hear it for the Muslims and the great truths found in their TEXTBOOKS

You've complete lost it if you're counting on Muslims to find any kind of truth, especially about Jews.

So to Cedarfuck doesn't like muslims, but as long as they're PURGING jews he'll let them stay!!!!

Howard--- That's not surprising. The Nazis had a similar relationship with Muslims too. It's the old enemy of my enemy is my friend deal.

Hey, don't blame me! Jews like Emmanual Cellar were the main organizers and prime movers of the mass immigration policy enacted to prevent "another St Louis" and to make Emma Lazarus's poem the basis of American immigration policy.

Don't like millions of Muslims pouring into the USA? Take it up with the ACLU and other pro-immigration Jewish fronts that helped open the doors of America to millions of Islamists and are busily keeping them open.

And the ONLY 2 good things about the Muslims here is that they are balancing the counterproductive "tilt" in America's foreign policy favoring only one nation - and they are also a test case to see if radical Islamists are capable of assimilation and reformation of their violent anti-infidel tendencies.

Poor Seedy, doing all that typing.

Here Seedy, save those precious fingers and use cut-and-paste. Same garbage, same amount of bandwidth wasted, much less work on your part.