The first Star Wars was awesome. They've sucked since then, except for special effects and you shouldn't be able to do a movie on that.

I wouldn't watch dogs fuck with George Lucas.

Okay, got to lower the expectations a bit more...

I wouldn't watch dogs fuck with George Lucas.

You're saying that in the hands of a more competent filmmaker, this subject matter would interest you?

Ace, chill out. Lots of people that I trust are liking it, and these were people that did not like Episodes I and II. And these were people that immediately said they didn't like Episode II when they saw it.

Yes, there's going to be bad dialog and wooden acting, but that's how it is. A few corny love scenes? Unfortunately, yes. But overall this is all the big stuff playing out, finally. We'll see Anakin's descent, Obi-Wan nearly killing him, his transition to Vader, the betrayal, defeat, and exile of the Jedi, etc. This movie should almost write itself. All that Lucas had to do was not screw it up, and many people are saying that, miraculously, he has managed not to do so.

No, there are no miracles here, so don't expect something on par with Episodes IV and V. But from what I'm hearing, you can expect it to be significantly better than I and II and perhaps better than VI.

As for wondering if Yoda could fight, yes, I too had that conversation with my friends when I was a kid. We always imagined that he'd fight like the Emperor in VI, wielding awesome power -- throwing things, shooting electricity, etc. -- without actually going toe-to-toe with his opponent in a lightsaber battle. So, no, we didn't expect it to look ridiculous. I don't know what Lucas was thinking with the Yoda-as-Speedy-Gonzalez thing.

Well that review is pretty much what I expected. Just wait until the TV shows come out, and then the rumors of more movies, as Lucas milks it for all it's worth.

I wouldn't watch dogs fuck with George Lucas.

You're saying that in the hands of a more competent filmmaker, this subject matter would interest you?

He also said that every move since Episode IV sucked. Anyone that thinks The Empire Strikes Back sucked probably would enjoy seeing some dog-on-dog action.

Lucas really messed up the Jedi mythos in the new movies. In the original movies, being a Jedi was a thing of merit -- if you had the ability, the drive, and willingness to sacrifice to attain the goal, then you could be a Jedi Knight. It was kind of like being Batman, only with a laser-sword instead of a bat-arang.

But in the new movies, it's all genetic. You are either born with "midichlorians" or you aren't. Being a Jedi is purely a matter breeding, dear boy, and all you peasants may go play in traffic.

This revelation made the Jedi much less attractive as good guys to me. A Jedi did not choose his ability, but was granted it by Fate (or the Force, or whatever). There was very little free will involved.

Plus, Jar Jar sucks donkey balls.

Bob...I'm trying to believe. I really am. But Lucas has, in interviews and with these movies, shown a disdain for those of us who grew up watching his movies and playing with his toys.

Has a director ever crapped upon his fans like that before and squandered such goodwill?

Dude, hold your opinion of the movie until you've actually seen it. Don't base it just on the other movies, and on some random blogging. I'd tell you what I thought of it, but there'd be no point.

Thanks for the link Ace!

Bob - the real problem I had with the film was that it actually felt like lucas did let it write itself. There were so many points in that film where I (and the folks who I was watching it with, who were basically a bunch of writers and producers, which is how I got a ticket for the sneak preview) really felt that if only some more thought had gone into how a scene was written, it could have been so much better. In the end, there were just too many cringe-inducing moments of bad dialogue and stupid occurrances (case in point - Obi Wan and Yoda spending a bunch of time in the Jedi Temple wondering who could have committed the atrocity that took place, only to have the existence of a "security hologram" revealed one moment later that not only showed Anakin slaughtering the younglings but also showed him reporting to the emporer, who to the best of my knowledge was not at the temple. Those Jedi have some great security camera coverage). For some reason, it was easier for me to overlook those same elements in Episodes I and II, probably because could hope that Lucas would redeem himself in Episode III. No such fallback position exists for this film.

But it is just my opinion.

I don't know if it was ever pure merit. I seem to remember some "the force is strong in that one" comments in the original trilogy that implied there was at least some inate component to it.

But, yeah, the midichlorians things was mind-bogglingly stupid. What an idiot. Was that even mentioned again in Episode II? If so, I don't remember, and it's a good thing. Even if it was inate in certain people in the OT, it was more in a spiritual/energy sense, not some little bacteria or whatever.

Speaking of that, whatever happened to Anakin's virgin birth story? Ha ha ha. Now that was beyond stupid. That was certainly not mentioned in II and I suspect is not in III either. If Lucas does Special Editions of the prequel trilogy, that should end up on the cutting room floor (or, with today's techology, in the Recycle Bin or Trash).

If III is any good, I suspect when my wife and I choose to rewatch the Star Wars movies we'll probably just watch III and the OT, and maybe occasionally II (or parts of it). What's the point of I, really? Jar-Jar, midichlorians, pod racing, a dumb battle over a trade blockade...the only cool thing is the Darth Maul fight, but even that doesn't really advance the story. I remember actually defending Darth Maul to a non-fan who thought it was dumb the way he just popped in, harrassed them, fought them, and died. They thought there should have been more to his character. I said at the time he was supposed to be a mystery and that said mystery would unfold over the next two movies. But, nope, we never learned anything more about him. He was just one of the Sith people, and that's all we'll ever know I guess.

All that I'm saying, is give Star Wars a change.

...but all that I meant to be saying, is give Star Wars a chance.

Ignore that last message. It corrects a typo in a message that never went through. That message will be after this one, with the typo corrected in the message itself...

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Slublog, I'm not sure what you're referring to by saying Lucas has "crapped upon his fans". I really don't think the doofus was trying to insult any of his fans. He's basically just an out-of-touch mediocre director and writer who bit off more than he could chew with the prequels. But, hey, maybe he got this one right, or at least right enough to be enjoyable. The strong consensus is that that is the case.

See, Fargus apparently liked the movie. After this message, I'm going to take his advice, hold my opinion, and wait until I see it (in seven hours!). But first, more hectoring:

Marc, no offense (and I really mean that), but you went with a group of writers and producers? That would be the last group I'd trust if I wanted to find out if a fun movie was any good, particularly if they all went together. Why? Because I'd suspect a group of that type is going to quickly degenerate into a nit-picking contest. If such a group went out for drinks afterwards, the conversation would revolve around a contest of who could identify the very worst piece of dialog in the movie.

You're right, Marc, there is no fallback position of "this can be made right in the sequels". On the other hand, though, I think there has been another, perhaps bigger, change. With Episode I, everyone wanted to love it and many were blinded by that desire. Then they kind of woke up later. Episode II was a little better but had worse dialog, and more people disliked it initially and others turned on it much more quickly. As a result, after Episode II the opinion of the prequels hardened into "bad plot, wooden performances, atrocious dialog". OK, that's fine, but now I almost think many people seeing Episode III are too quick to pounce on that and disqualify the movie as a whole because of it. Well, yes, it's a Lucas film, so those elements will be there, but I don't necessarily think it's going to ruin the movie for people that don't get hung up on those flaws.

Just because it has some of the same problems as I and II doesn't mean it's not going to be a good movie. Look at the reviews on Rotten Tomatoes:

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/star_wars_3/

Look at the reviews on Yahoo Movies:

http://movies.yahoo.com/shop?d=hv&cf=info&id=1808406061&intl=us

What I'm seeing is people are liking this movie much more than Episode I. Beyond that, the negative reviews seem to be people that either never liked any of the Star Wars movies or that were just waiting for the first clunkly line so they could pronounce III a failure. Yes, there are a few people that seem to be Star Wars fans keeping an open mind that honestly didn't like it, but very few.

And this jibes with the real people I know that have seen it. As I said, people that disliked I and II are saying they really liked II.

OK, this is all I'm going to say on this subject until I see it myself. One last thing: Relax, go see the movie, try to shake off any looking-for-the-flaws mindset, and see if you don't enjoy it. Most people seem to be enjoying it, and odds are you'll be one of those people. Don't let I and II ruin your enjoyment of III. Don't give in the the dark side of the sniping critics.

All that I'm saying, is give Star Wars a chance.

Stephen Hunter (PBUH) reviews it in today's WP and he says it fulfills a promise made to us back in 1977. The guy is no Star Wars junkie and barely knows enough about the story to discuss it intelligently, but he knows movies. And he likes it. Cheer the fuck up.

Maybe that was too strong a term. I just really disliked Episode I, was indifferent to Episode II and am really, really looking forward to seeing the movie (in four hours).

I just want to be entertained. That's all.

On my list of prequel laughs, the "midichlorian" thing and the virgin birth thing are right at the top. Along with Anakin making C-3po (so later it doesn't recognize Luke having the Skywalker name?), the "queen" of naboo being elected (so would leia be a princess then?), that awful Jar-jar charatcer's existance and stupid Jamaican accent (his death is much antcipiated)

I'm hoping episode 3 will fix these problems. That's probably hoping too much. Here's to the thought that at least it won't end with Vader and the Emperor smiling and waving at the camera while the Ewok's Jub-Jub extended dance mix plays. I hope.

I saw it. Dude, this is way off.

My reaction to all the "political message/bad dialogue/bad acting" whinge posts...

There was dialogue in that movie!? Fight, fight (pause for breath/bad dialogue/bad acting), fight, Yoda moment, fight, fight, slaughter, fight, fight. Repeat. Anakin's turn is handled well. Then a very good ending.

People are getting worked up over, what, a total of 3 minutes of the movie? Wow.

Your mystery point is right, but unavoidable. This can't be the view-from-the-fringes underdog story of the original movies. Lots of fans still haven't come to grips with that.

All I want to know is this:

DOES JAR-JAR DIE?

All else is secondary. Like with Titanic, where learning DiCaprio dies makes the movie otherwise tolerable. BARELY, but tolerable.

Yeah, the political comments are hardly even noticeable. I wouldn't have paid any attention to them if I hadn't been alerted to them beforehand.

Overall, this one is better than the first two prequels, but some of the dialogue is awful, particulary the scenes between Padme and Annakin, but that's no change from Episode II.

And let's be honest: Was the dialogue and acting really all that good in the original trilogy?

Yeah, brak, it will be interesting to see if a lot of the problems are addressed.

For me, the whole queen/princess thing is just baffling. OK, in the OT we have Princess Leia, so I assume we're dealing with an old-fashioned monarchy system here. Then in Episode I we learned that her mother is a democratically elected queen. Er...OK. That makes little sense, but I guess a democratically elected queen can have a princess daughter. But then in Episode II we find out that she's no longer a queen because of term limits of all things. Now I'm totally confused.

Then, to top it off, apparently Leia was raised by other people and never know who her mother was. So I guess the facts that her biological mother was a queen and she becomes a princess have nothing to do with each other, as amazing as it seems.

I guess I'll find out if any of this is straightened out in Episode III.

As for Anakin making C-3PO, that is also stupid, but I figure they could explain it by having his memory wiped. But I guess I'll see in a few hours.

And, yeah, Jar-Jar sucks. What was Lucas thinking? Seldom has a character been so universally hated. At least I hear that is fixed by having virtually no screen time for him in Episode III. I don't know if he dies or not, but I certainly wouldn't mind seeing that.

From someone who grew up with the originals and is now seeing the new ones as an adult, I must say this: If you saw the originals as a child, and you are now taking the "these just aren't as good" attitude, consider something. We all saw the originals not only as children, but children who had never witnessed anything like that. Since that time, we have seen literally hundreds of movies, and we keep the original trilogy in a special nostalgic place in our heads. There is no way, if you are to look at it objectively, that you would ever think that the new ones stacked up. It's like thinking back to the first girl (or boy, whatever) you kissed, or your first jump off the diving board, whatever..... The point is, if you were to watch the original trilogy with the same attitude you have now for the first time, your reaction would be the same as it is to the new ones. Point of fact, Lucas sucks as a director. But then again, he always has. The story in the new trilogy is no more/less weak than the original. They're just fun. Period. Enjoy the hell out of it for what it is: A dazzling aray of special effects with a little drama thrown in for good measure. Just the same as the origials.

And let's be honest: Was the dialogue and acting really all that good in the original trilogy?

Maybe not, but neither was it so horrible that it stuck out like a sore thumb. There was nothing comparable to, say, this dreck from Episode II:

"I'm haunted by the kiss you should never have given me. My heart is beating, hoping that kiss will not become a scar."

Who talks like that?

Saw it. It's the best of the prequels, certainly, and if you don't go in expecting an epiphany it's fine.

US Soldier,

I agree. I grew up with the movies, and I never really thought much about whether or not they were actually good or not. I just liked them and that was it. Ultimately, I think it's the idea that was good (The Force and all that) rather than the execution of that idea.

Bob,

Like I said, the Padme-Annakin scenes are awful. Lucas simply cannot write scenes dealing with love or romance. His wife must have married him for money, because he sure as hell didn't sweep her off her feet.

And there's a few lines like the one you mentioned in this one, believe me. If you need to use the restroom, do it during the Padme-Annakin scenes.

Just returned from the movie. My son and I played hookie today to watch Star Wars III. Ace is right it kind of sucked. Lots of great special effects but nothing earth shattering or moving. In some sad way it was even more of a disappointment than the other two ... I allowed my hopes to be raised with this one. What is even more shocking my 13 year old son didn't like it. He is now sitting on sofa looking like he has nothing else to live for. He offered his opinion before hearing mine. Maybe I should get him one of those fancy light sabers to cheer him up. The only thing I am left is hating George Lucas for all that stupid politcal sh*t that has been coming out of his mouth ... idiot. Maybe Lucas said all that crap to get the support of the media.

The point is, if you were to watch the original trilogy with the same attitude you have now for the first time, your reaction would be the same as it is to the new ones.

Really? I doubt it.

When I was a kid, Star Wars was huge. Anyone that grew up during that era can tell you of the obsessions with toys, the endless conversations, etc.

You don't see that with kids and the prequel trilogy. A friend of mine, also a big SW fan, is a fourth-grade teacher, and he said to the kids in his classes it's just another movie, that there's absolutely no comparison to how we felt about the OT movies.

Jason,

I was more reponding to your general point that you thought the dialog was bad in the the originals, too. To me you seemed to be implying they were on the same level.

But look at dialog between Han and Leia vs. that between Anakin and Padme. The Han/Leia dialog for the most part is crisp, fun, and playful. There is no comparison. And, yes, I know people other than Lucas were responsible for much of the OT dialog, but that's not relevant, as the bottom line is it's much worse in the prequels. I'd have been thrilled if someone, anyone could have fixed the prequels' dialog before they hit the big screen.

My point is while there may have been some flat dialog in the originals, it wasn't nearly as horrible as the prequel dialog. For the most part, you didn't notice it too much.

Yeah, I already plan to use Anakin/Padme scenes as good times for bathroom breaks if I need any.

But then in Episode II we find out that she's no longer a queen because of term limits of all things. Now I'm totally confused.

It's not unheard of for societies to elect monarchs. For example, the electors of the Holy Roman Empire chose the Emperor upon death or abdication. It was sometimes hereditary and sometimes not.

Leia is called princess because of her adoption into the Royal House of Alderaan, even though she was already a princess by virtue of being Amidala's daughter.

P.S. Jar Jar sucks.

Even the first Star Wars did not have as bad dialogue as some now suggest. The dialogue in Empire was better, yes.

And SW did have a few clunky or too-portentous-sounding lines, *but it mostly worked beautifully.*

I think people are making too much of Han's "Give me a second to punch up the coordinates on the navicomputer" line because Ford and Fisher said "You can't type this crap, but we can't say it." That is a hard-to-read line, but it is about a technical thing involving starships, after all.

The obi-wan and darth vader dialogues are stiff and archaic, but they're supposed to be. There's a line here or there that doesn't really work, but most of it's fine.

And there is some GREAT dialogue in star wars, including Han's attempt to explain why all the cameras in the detention area are out. "No, don't send anyone... we're all fine here, just fine... Uh, how are you?"

I've always liked "Where are you taking this ... thing?" And I'll be damned if I can remember any of the throwaway lines from Eps I and II, and I've seen them much more recently than EpIV.

John Cheese over at Pointless Waste of Time re-captioned Star Wars in a Flash animation. It's *extremely* vulgar and probably NSFW, but is pretty damned hilarious. He turns the original horrible dialogue into funny horrible dialogue.

Don't get me wrong. I agree that the dialogue in the prequels is worse than the originals, but I was just pointing out that the originals weren't exactly the high point of American cinema in terms of acting and dialogue. There are some good lines in the originals, and I can't think of any really memorable ones in the prequels.

But not all the dialogue in the prequels is entirely bad. In "Sith," the scenes where Palpatine is trying to lure Anakin to the dark side are actually pretty good.

Anyway, I'm not saying "Revenge of the Sith" is great, but just that it's better than the previous two, which isn't really saying all that much.

Plus, there's almost no Jar-Jar Binks.

Lucasian dialogue reached its lowest point inClones when C3PO's head is being dragged over the ground by R2D2 and he says, "What a drag!"

I would cheerfully have imprisoned George Lucas for 90 days for that particular bit of putridity. He would get an additional week for the Yippee! scene with Jake Loyd in Phantom.

Oh God, and I'd forgotten those two little gems of dialogue. Until now, that is.

"Speaking of mystique... "

I got your mystique right here. Along with why ALL Star Wars flicks SUCK, and, are ya ready?

NSFW photos that give explcit detail why they suck.

But this entire first series -- nevermind the fact that we know how it's going to end, and that everyone seems to just show up to quickly do the bullet-point action required of him to "set up" the already-made first trilogy -- has lots of Jedi.

Aside from the midichlorian thing, this was the most bothersome thing to me about Ep I. Consider:

• You speak of the one who would restore balance to the force

Combined with:

• Always two there are: the master and the apprentics

Throw in a galaxy swimming in Jedi, and you realize that the only way the force is out of balance is that there are too many Jedi. And the only way the one who would restore balance can do that is by killing an awful lot of them.

So you wind up with Jedi looking forward to a prophecy of their doom. And that just doesn't make sense.

That's what I like about Pixar movies; their fundamental philosophy to making movies is that the story is everything. That was true about the original 3 movies, definitely not true about the final 3.

Well I personally liked Ep3 and I wasn't a fan of Ep1-2.

But to defend Ep1, Sidious did come out with: "I don't want this stunted slime in my sight again" and "I will -make- it 'legal'". Also Shmi Skywalker: "I die every time you do it" and "don't look back".

Dialogue ain't why this one (and the previous 2) sucked. It was the story, the plot. Set up a wild universe with crazy aliens and blasters and lightsabers and then turn it loose on a story of.... boring galactic senate, jedi council intrigue for the dull witted. The whole three were like some Sci-Fi 'Parallax View' for six year olds, except infinitely duller.

Star Wars? Good Guys v. Bad Guys, a roguish smuggler, mixing togehter to blow up a death star before it destroys a planet. Han Solo flying in outta the sun at the last second? FANTASTIC! Great simple story. Empire had a few good moments, ROTJ had fewer, but these last 3 have had none. They have all been horrible movies.
There, I'm done.

I think the biggest problem in this prequel trilogy (and, to a lesser extent, the original trilogy revisions) is that all three movies attempt to simultaniously reach out to both the most hardcore SW fan and the casual viewer, completely disregarding all the folks who grew up with the originals. On one hand you have all the trappings of hard SciFi (midichlorians; which, if you noticed, even get a mention in Ep III!), and on the other you have mindless, completely out-of-character comedy. Episode 3, as far as I can tell, was mainly fanservice. It also got the largest dose of comedy out of the three, probably to offset the geekiness and the plotholes. There's no *real* substance to it.

Secondly, the epic is just not Lucas' forte. Take a look at his previous work. Original trilogy Star Wars, Indiana Jones, THX 1138, American Graffiti. Star Wars and Jones are both classical movie serials; epic in scale, sure, but the story is fairly shallow, and mainly exists to drive the characters on a fantastic adventure. His other works include fairly simplistic one-shots that are actually quite effective at getting their point across, but on a miniscule scale.

So that's what we're left with. A little bit Deep Space Nine, a little bit Spaceballs.

P.S.: Solo Shot First!

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