"Opposition to homosexuality was a doctrine developed in the 12th century..."

WHAT? Whether Sul...uh, HWSNBN likes it or not, there are passages in the scriptures that can be regarded as being against homosexuality.

Egad, what a moron.

He's about to link Benedict XVI to Karl Rove

Done done it.

And Rick Santorum (kid you not) is now "a Ratzingerian senator."

Sully also said early on in the interview that "It isn't about me."

Papal infallability is a doctrine of the 19th century, and arose in relation to the Immaculate Conception and Assumption of the Virgin Mary. It was the formal rearticulation of what was always held as truth, however, that the Pope is always right when speaking on matters of doctrine only.

From the Catholic encyclopedia:

An infallible pronouncement—whether made by the pope alone or by an ecumenical council—usually is made only when some doctrine has been called into question. Most doctrines have never been doubted by the large majority of Catholics.

That homosexual sex is a sin has pretty much been teh standard line for , oh, about 6,000 years.

Don't want to be considered a sinner? Don't sin.

Sully: "The church should be open to learning from the world."

Out. Of. His. Fuckin'. Mind.

Whew...Sully is HWSNBN....for a moment I thought Cedarford had managed to finagle an interview.

I am sure he will be on Bill Maher before the end of the season about this. So he can first agree with Bill on everything. Then harangue Bill the cocksucker for being a bigot. Andy is moody.

(post above was mine).

Oh, and Ace, don't trust Excitable Andy on any point regarding the church - you know better than that. Papal infallibility may have been formally codified by the First Vatican Council but it was accepted universally from the very beginning.

It's all about pleasing Sully!

So basically Sullivan is saying to heck with tradition and the doctrine of the church - what's important is my feelings and my desires.

Only God knows Sully's heart, but this guy doesn't seem Catholic in any meaningful sense of the word. His thinking is completely that of a guy who thinks he's the center of his universe and refuses to give any ground to God.

A couple of resources on Papal Infallibility:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Papal_Infallibility.asp, which discusses what PI is and is not; it doesn't mean that the Pope is perfect.

And http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15303a.htm, which discusses Vatican I where the doctrine was promulgated in 1870 after much debate.

From blogger and Pastor Mark D. Roberts' site today:

If a Vice President for Apple starts publicly touting the benefits of Windows, should she keep her job? If a professional baseball player says, "Hang the rules. I'm going to take steroids anyway," should he be allowed to keep on playing without reprisals? If a university professor plagiarizes the research of others, should there be no consequences? If a reporter for the New York Times makes up facts in news stories, should that reporter keep his job? Every company, every organization, every institution has basic values and rules of operation. If people within that organization choose to reject the values or break the rules, then they are disciplined, and sometimes that discipline includes being excluded from the organization. To be sure, this sort of procedure can be abused by people in power. Sometimes it is vengeful and unjust. But sometimes it is both fair and just. If you're going to be a part of an institution that has clear values and rules, you must expect to live within them.

Does it ever occur to Sullivan that Pope Benedict is a popular choice with the church because he calls for a more vigorous faith, not despite it?

Nicely put, Slublog.

Slublog, it arises from both the militant gay activists' inherent narcissism and HWSNBN's hyper-inflated sense of self-worth. Add to that the Catholic teaching on conscience, and you've got an idiot who thinks his desires are the sole moral arbiter of the universe, and someone who is so pompous as to claim the Pope's not Catholic.

What a total and complete ass.

The rest of Medved's show is pretty good. At least I don't have to listen to Sullivan's annoyingly prissy voice anymore.

!!!

***ALERT! SHE SAID "PRISSY!" SHE SAID "PRISSY!" GET TO THE DOWNTOWNCAVE! ALERT! ALERT! GAY-BASHING ALERT! MATT SHEPHERD YOU ARE NOT FORGOTTEN***

I stopped reading / listening to Andrew Sullivan anything months ago. Can anyone give me a valid reason why I should start again? "A good laugh" is not one as I don't find him funny. What I do find him to be is a waste of my time and I just wasted another minute of my life on him. Damnit.

Actually, Papal Infallibility has been around since the founding of the Church. Vatican I merely defined what it meant.

Yea... But it was worth it to have that elderly lady give him a good verbal smack down!

It does amaze me that people act surprised that the Catholic Church is not going to renounce thousands of years of doctrine and tradition so that the critics can indulge their senses without the pangs of guilt.

Oh I have no doubt Andrew was raised Catholic. Probably an alter boy. His ranting oozes repressed Catholic guilt. We all know that Catholic Guilt is a Weapon of Mass Destruction.

His upbringing made it clear that his lifestyle is sinful. Couple this with his HIV positive status and you have the makings of a guilt casserole. He can deny that all he wants, I have been Catholic since my first breath and we know guilt. It is said the Jews invented guilt, but I think the Catholics perfected it.

Let's state the obvious, there isn't a pope in the college that would "reform" the way he wants it reformed. So who was chosen is of no consequence. They could have elevated the ghost of Liberace and still the church would not affect a lisp and welcome him home.

Andrew is a peacock's ass who is trying to stay in denial. He knows he will never change, he is what he is. Certainly will not apologize for it and shouldn't if it is not sincere. So he wants the only other alternative. Change the rules.

I ask myself every time I listen to his screeds, why this is such a huge deal for him. He says God loves him the way he is. He doesn't feel he is a sinner. Then why push this issue. It shouldn't matter to him, yet it does.

No one is forcing him to be Catholic. If all he wants is to go to church and be accepted he could join one of the Catholic Light religions that have a more "modern" outlook.

Does he do this? No he compares himself to a jew. He acts like Catholic doctrine on homosexuality can somehow be compared to that of anti-Semitism in the church's past. The man needs to get the hell over it.

This is what happens when you let the Sully-bashing go for a few months. Everything seems fine and then next thing you know you are armpit-deep in gobsmack and you have to go all Ellen Ripley or be consumed by the hysterics.

shit, I should have just posted that on my blog. Sorry. Longer than I thought it was, Ace.

We all know that Catholic Guilt is a Weapon of Mass Destruction.

Heh. I haven't been Catholic for years and there's still guilt!

Jennifer,

I assure you I don't mind people posting interesting things here and letting me get the traffic off of them.

Someone on Free Republic wanted to know why Andrew Sullivan didn't just quit the Catholic Church and join the ECUSA, since the leadership seems exactly to his liking. Someone else answered that that's the whole point--he has to stay Catholic, or he can't be a "victim." Pope B16 is the best thing that ever happened to him.

When liberals want to scare their kids, do they tell them that Karl Rove will get them?

Call me dumb if you want (no, really) but I can't figure out what's the big deal. If you don't like what your religion dictates; leave it. Go where you're comfortable. Sammy Davis Jr., wasn't always jewish (was he?). HWSNBN should join some sect that is of like-mind. Or hell, start his own. Otherwise, knock it off.

No, Charlton Heston I think. Its the old man hands they fear.

Either him or Pat Robertson.

HWSNBN really is on a vicimhood jag. Its not enough to be gay, he's got to get AIDS. Its not enough to have AIDS, he's got to be a Gay Catholic with AIDS. He tried for the Gay-AIDS-Afflicted-Catholic-War-Supporter, but that backfired, so he became all anus all the time.

Say one thing about B16, all the right people hate 'em.

Pope=Hitler
Hitler=Bush

therefore

Bush=Pope?

"And Christy is the Bimbo!"

Ace-

just out of curiousity....why are paying so much attention to he who shall not be named?

Didn't you say you weren't going to speak of him until next week?

When people do what they believe in their heart is wrong, they can become irrational. It causes a lot of stress. They blame others (blame an ultraconservative Pope, unforgiving conservative Christians, instead of the Bible).

They get a little bitchy too.

Vatican I promulgated the doctrinal definition of Papal Infallibility. Prior to this there was an assumption, but no doctrine. The Catholic Catechism of course argues that Popes have always been and been assumed to be infaffilible. But my reading of history and specifically the Catholic Encyclopedia is that the assumption was that the Church as a whole, acting through Eucumenical Councils, which included the Pope, was infallible. But Vatican I took the step of defining the Churches infallibility to reside in the Pope's ex cathedra pronouncements. It was more than mere semantical definition of a widely accepted doctrine, else it would not have taken over 300 years from Luther's questioning of the Churches infallibility, nor would it have taken the members of Vatican I over seven months of intense negotiating to come to the definition if it were such an long held and understood doctrine prior to the council.

Top 10 reasons why Andrew Sullivan won't shut up and leave the Catholic Church

10) It's the colors, the pretty, pretty colors in the stained glass windows, he just can't abandon them to be accessorized by straights.

9) With all those gay priests, at least one of them ought to have some chest-wax that Andy can borrow.

8) There's no way he can cram his ego into one of those tiny Episcopalian houses of God.

7) Man, Vienna Boys Choir sounds like a buffet, don't it?

6) "Red wine and low-fat crackers? No way, where do I sign up?"

5) "Do whatever I want and a few 'Hail Mary's' clears the books? No way, where do I sign up?"

4) Gay and Catholic? Sweet spot. The only thing that magically creates more self-referential navel-gazing is "Jew Comedian".

3) "I did leave the Church, before I rejoined it--only to quit it again. I can quit it again, in a heartbeat, just you watch."

2) Now that we Habemus Popehitler who is nearly 80, Andy can look forward to re-using all this hysteria in a few years when they do this again, and nothing turns a writer on more than getting paid twice for the same material.

1) "Everybody reading my rapid-fire, frenzied histrionics has driven my bandwidth bill into the early ionosphere. I'm looking at a $1.35 Million dollar charge. Why don't you drop a few bucks into my tip-jar; and Mr. Soros, here I'm looking at you."

Why am I supposed to give a wet slap what Andrew Sullivan thinks about anything, exactly?

Fucking fucking stupid censor program that sees an erection drug Ci**lis in a post where the stupid word doesn't exist!!

I wish the fucking stupid censor program would at least say WHAT the fucking word was in a fucking cocksucker post that resembles the dread fucking word Ci**lis so it could be fucking expunged and replaced with a word the fucking censor program doesn't confuse with fucking Ci**lis!

would you like a valium to help with your Ci**lis meltdown? :)

A lot of "progressives" argue that the church will fall apart if it doesn't "modernize" its views on abortion, gay marriages etc. Fact is, the only churches that are losing their congregations are the ones that've diluted their moral teachings with liberalism.

Meanwhile, the R.C. church and evangelical movements are growing GANGBUSTERS.

>Call me dumb if you want (no, really) but I can't figure out what's the big deal. If you don't like what your religion dictates; leave it.

The whole point is he gets off on subversion. He wants to subvert marriage, and no less wants to subvert the church -- indeed subvert all existing social conditions and institutions.

Whatever he calls himself or pretends to be, his agenda is FAR left.

>Does he do this? No he compares himself to a jew. He acts like Catholic doctrine on homosexuality can somehow be compared to that of anti-Semitism in the church's past. The man needs to get the hell over it.

He's playing mind games. As I said above, his real agenda is subversion.

For the life of me I will never understand the cafeteria Catholics. After all, it's not like there's no church for them. There is: here in the US we call it the "Episcopal Church," and in the rest of the world it's known as "Anglican." It has all of the robes and incense and chanting, and those nice boy choirs (and altarboys, yum!), but none of the guilt -- unless you're an intolerant, doctrinal Bible thumping God-botherer. Then you get cast into the outer darkness (you're given the cold shoulder at the Saturday cocktail parties at the vicarage by the president of the League of Lesbian Single Mothers).

Jebus. The Piscops even have loads of gay priests. What the hell is Andy waiting for?

andrea, the only sin in the Episcopal Church is bad manners.

cafeteria Catholics just can't give up the guilt.

For these guys there's two types of religion:
1. The Catholic Church, which is all wrong.
2. All the rest, which don't count.

Jebus. The Piscops even have loads of gay priests. What the hell is Andy waiting for?

If he joined up with a different church--one which supports, nay, celebrates things like gay marriage--he'd have to stop acting like a victim, which seems to be the only note he can sing as of late.

People who have no faith (for whatever reason because the reasons are various as to why they don't -- most refuse to have faith as an act of will) have only a set of human concepts to rely on.

Thus, they're wonky about issues of faith and most of us who have faith and who rely on what our faith instructs and how. The Catholic Church and us Catholics rely on our faith and entrust our leaders to also rely on that faith and it all works out very well because the entire principle of faith is that, by faith, we are led, loved and instructed.

But it also requires written ideologies to share that faith clearly among everyone interested. We have fixed principles upon which that faith is founded and explained. Those principles aren't derived from human figuring, conjuring, RELATIVISM among human socieities and reasoning, but upon revealed content by way of faith.

The whole process is something that is not understood by persons who are persistent in humanist practices. And so, they push for faith to bow down to them, to humanism, while to faith, that's profane. For everyone who curses the faith (Sully, Sullivan, others similar) by way of cursing the faith principles, they really need prayer. A lot of prayer. Faith can move mountains, faith can move Sully and Sullivan and people similar. God's big enough to do miraculous things and has and will.

Poor Andrew is going to have live with the fact that the Church is not going to revise the Catechism to make catamitic satyriasis acceptable behavior.