I sure she watching a movie - perhaps The Diary of Ann Frank - and said "you know, that's what I want to happen to me after I'm starved to death."

May she rest in peace :((( Or, may she haunt that bastard.

Fourteen days. If someone is lost in the wilderness for a week and only has some tree bark and a few sips of water it's big news.

Just fucking sad.

Just heard a stunning quote from a doctor (lawyer?) who was on Michael's side;
He said the reason they gave Terri the morphine was because nurses' notes recorded that she was grimacing, moaning, and her muscles were tensing.

Can anybody doubt that she was in fucking agony?
Nuke the world.

Dear Mainstream Media,

Excellent job. Now who else can we sacrifice in order to defeat the Bush Brothers? You know, in order to show how we are the party of compassion?

sincerely,
the Liberals

i suppose the media will spin it as "euphoric" right? ridiculous

Terri Schiavo was the heart of America. Those who wanted her dead now have Terri the martyr who will not die to contend with.

I had very mixed feelings about this case. I think Jonah Goldberg's comments after news of her death sum up how I feel now:

"Now that she has passed let us hope and pray that Michael Schiavo was right and her parents were wrong, even if we don't believe that to be the case. Rest in peace."

Silly Ace. Obviously the number of stem cell miracle techniques will be limited, at least at first, and I am sure each medical-miracle-leftist-libertarian-whatever sees himself or his favorite person at the head of the line. Share with some insignificant broad? Puh-leeze. What was she gonna do, find the cure for cancer or write a really cool scifi novel?

If any medical miracle via stem cells is ever discovered, the rich and media-loved will be the first recipients of the cure, as always.

"And of course I would respect that wish... unless it was extremely important to other family members."

This statement comes pretty close to bankrupting your whole argument for saving anyone's life after permanent incapacitation. And, yes, I understand your POV here, but c'mon, you have to honor the requests of the deceased irrespective of your own desires.

This is THEM we're talking about, not YOU.

I know you feel strongly that Schiavo shouldn't have standing to make the choice to withdraw the feeding tube.

But it's a canard that this was done on his say-so alone.

The law in florida permits a determination of the wishes of a patient in Terri's predicament to be made by the *court.* Schiavo could testify, but he could not be the arbiter of her wishes.

The court heard testimony from at least five witnesses on the matter of her wishes. In addition to the testimony of Schiavo himself about his wifes views, there was testimony from two other people ( Michael's brother and sister-in-law, who was one of Terri's close friends) about statements Terri had made on the subject as an adult, that the judge found credible and which led to his decision.

He decision has been reviewed by higher courts, and no court has found there was insufficient evidence to meet the clear and convincing standard, or that evidence was improperly ignored, etc.

This was not done on one man's say-so.

I am so beyond pissed it almost leaves me unable to write. Thankfully I was able to spew my disgust on the blog about that piece of shit she was married to. You are all aware he will roast in hell for this last little act of defiance.

There is a simple point to be made and you make it well. What would it have hurt Michael to allow her family to be with her? What does he lose by allowing them to burry her? He is a pathological control freak. This is just he final act in his performance. He will control it all until the end. This was his final act of control over his wife.

Honestly I do not know how you can look the family in the eyes and say, "No, you cannot be here." I do not pretend to comprehend that level of arrogance and inhumanity.

Karma is a bitch, Michael needs to keep that in mind in this final phase.

A victory for moral relativism. Soon we can start throwing our babies into the Mississippi and banish the elderly.

Were it the request born of a religious belief, I'd agree.

When it's born of a desire to not be a bother-- well, the basic intent is to aid and comfort the surviving relatives, right? And if the assumption that a cremation would best aid and comfort the living turns out to be wrong, well, then, shouldn't the decision be so modified as well?

Look, funerals and cremations are not for the dead. Unless you have strong religious beliefs about the proper way to be buried or cremated. They're for the living in many if not most cases.

I just don't beleive that Terri -- a young healthy (or so it seemed) woman who was in the best shape of her life (or so it seemed) -- was pondering and expressing her thoughts on death and the aftermath.

Michael Schiavo has had a tendency to "remember" Terri's statements long after they were made.

Thank you, Ace, very well put.

Those of you who want to kvetch about law and how this was right and all of that happy shit, shut up. Show some respect for the dead.

We will remember you Terri. Your suffering is ended. Sleep in peace.

:'(

Thanks so much for setting us straight, Sarah! It's a good thing you're keeping that argument alive right now.

"I just don't beleive that Terri -- a young healthy (or so it seemed) woman who was in the best shape of her life (or so it seemed) -- was pondering and expressing her thoughts on death and the aftermath."

Ace, I don't know whether you are married or not, but this is actually a valid conversation between married couples. Coincidentally, my wife and I had such a discussion last January after the death of my wifes grandmother. We both want cremation so we don't leave a body for the other to feel anchored to. We both want some of our ashes scattered in places special to us, and the rest kept around.
We have also discussed the issue of life support which is perhaps why I don't feel it odd that Michael can make such claims. However, excluding the schindlers seems to be just spiteful, however given the flack he has faced because of them, I don't say I can blame him.

FYI, you can be cremated and have a "Catholic" enternment. My God have vengence on Michael and his many helpers!

William,

Excepet there's one BIG difference. Terri is unfortunately dead now, and that was the whole point of the earlier argument.

Pedantic fool.

and fwiw, ace, a cremated body can still recieve a Catholic burial. At least if MS doesn't dump the ashes down the commode like he probably will, the cocksucker.

wonder what the civil lawsuits over this will look like

The headline should have read: Woman Dies of Torture After 13 Days.

I can't quite believe I've watched this happen.

May she rest in peace, and let her parents and siblings find some peace, as well.

I guess I *do* buy that a healthy 25 year-old would make remarks about end-of-life issues, especially if the remarks are in the context of events surrounding the death of a relative whose funeral I had just attented, when the conversation turned to how the relatives wishes had been ignored.

I'm about Terri's age. In my early twenties, I wasn't morbid enough to spout off at-random remarks about pulling plugs and yanking tubes. But I talked about it now and then in the same sort of contexts Terri is said to have made remarks, and some others.

"wonder what the civil lawsuits over this will look like"

There will be several. There will at least be litigation between Michael Schiavo and Terri's insurers over her life insurance proceeds, as well as the probate of her estate (I'm guessing she didn't have a will, because we would've heard about it if she did). On top of that, you'll probably also have a wrongful death suit by her parents against Michael. And that's just for starters: there could easily be more.

I really want to see what the autopsy says.

Slightly O/T how come you never here of the incredible success achieved with Adult stem cells? The venture capitalists sure know.

So how do you impeach judges in Florida?

Oh, Lord, Dave, can you imagine the apoplexy the TSM will go into if the Schindlers dare to institute a wrongful death suit? I personally think Michael Schiavo is a piece of human sewage, but he'll look like the second coming of St Michael the Archangel once the media is finished.

But perhaps they can get a portion of Michael's speaking fees, his book advance for "Terri: My Life With an Angel," his weepy appearances on Oprah and Today and his no-doubt-already-booked slot at the next Democrat National Convention.

1. Everyday 7,000 people die in the USA. Several thousand of them die of slow wasting diseases where eventually they refuse food and water, or their guardian directs it's removal, or that of other interventive care. A very normal, and merciful, way to die in America.

2. Every day a few hundred die because they are vegetative and a guardian directs no more watering via a feeding machine. Exact stats are unknown. It's routine in Alzheimers patients families to make that directive at a certain stage.

3. No vegetative patient has had more litigation and due process than Terri Shiavo. Many may not like what the Courts decided, but no person has had the many millions of dollars expended by taxpayers in legal costs, no person has had the Presidental, Congressional, media, and public attention and debate T Schiavo got. No vegetative in the future will get remotely close to the resources and attention directed at them T Schiavo got.

4. Cremation vs. burial is a waning Catholic debate. It used to be more controversial. Now it is fully accepted in Church dogma. As for wishes, cremation and interment in Schiavo's family plot where Michael plans to rest one day was set as what would happen in 2003 after court review of both side's wishes. As is almost always the case, the spouse's wishes are what goes over other relatives in most state's funeral laws. Foregoing all his wishes and burying T Schiavo in Florida solely for the Schindler family's personal mourning convenience and Mrs Schindler's traditional dislike of cremation would be a tremendous gesture of sacrifice & generosity. After 12 years of bitter struggle with such in-laws, regardless of who was in the wrong, I doubt ANY spouse in Schiavo's position would honor that request.

5. Prez Bush made remarks in condolence, of the "grace and dignity of both families setting an example for all of us". Anyone know what the heck he was thinking????

6. By all accounts, Terri Schiavo was a shy, sweet, good-hearted young lady when most of her brain, thus most of her, died in 1990. Now what was left of her was finally was allowed to pass on. May she be restored in full in the afterlife.

7. Let's hope the autopsy will show that letting her die was the right thing to do. Even if you disagree, as Jonah Goldberg said, let's hope, at this stage, for her sake - that M Schiavo was right, and the Right to Lifers and the Schindlers wrong.

Fuck you Cedarford.

One entry found for "tact".

Pronunciation: 'takt
Function: noun

1 : sensitive mental or aesthetic perception

2 : a keen sense of what to do or say in order to maintain good relations with others or avoid offense

One last time for old times sake:

Cedarturd, when that autopsy report comes out don't forget to grab the tissues and lotion you fucking monster.

Once more, I hope the autopsy is done by the right people.

>1. Everyday 7,000 people die in the USA.

Yo, Cedarford - improve the world some, join them.

http://www.vhemt.org

"they are vegetative and a guardian directs no more watering"

No more "watering"? I think we're taking the "vegetative" concept a little too far there.

May Terri have the peace in death that she didn't have in life.

For me, this is a very somber day for America.

That judge should be impeached.

"Well? Are these medical miracles on the way or not? "

Of course not, Ace. Didn't you listen to John Edwards? Terri would have gotten out of bed and danced with Christopher Reeve on November 3rd if Kerry/Edwards won the election.

SarahW,

true that this was not the act of a single man, but without that single man, there would not have been this act.

The court heard testimony from at least five witnesses on the matter of her wishes. In addition to the testimony of Schiavo himself about his wifes views, there was testimony from two other people ( Michael's brother and sister-in-law, who was one of Terri's close friends) about statements Terri had made on the subject as an adult, that the judge found credible and which led to his decision.

Oh please. Michael never said anything about Terri's alleged wishes until years after her incapacitation, around the time he decided not to treat a urinary tract infection that would have killed her (treatment took place, however, against his wishes). Then shortly before the end of a key hearing, one of the key figures--I believe it was one of Terri's temporary guardians ad litem--said Terri's alleged comments would be more credible with corroboration. Lo and behold, Michael produces his brother and sister in law to corroborate it. As I've said elsewhere, if this were a detective novel, what questions would you have?

Nice link to the Kausfiles item, but unfortunately he does not challenge Pinkerton's key mistake--most of the religious right does not oppose stem cell research--certainly Catholics don't. The religious right opposes stem cell research that kills people who have the misfortune to be vulnerable embryos. The right supports adult stem cell research, which has the fringe benefit of having actually produced effective treatments.

I doubt it would be the wishes of ANY woman to be buried next to a man (with whom I had no children) - who took (for all in tense and purpose) a new wife and had children, while I sat in a hospice room w/o pictures, w/o music, and w/o working wheelchair (because those things would constitute THERAPY.)

Ace, even if some miracle of regenerative treatment could regrow the missing portions of brain in that skull, the result would not be the woman who effectively died 15 years ago. At best you'd be creating an infant in a 40 year old body. A 40 year old body with the effects of the last 15 years on top of that.

People are going to think I'm horrible but there is good reason to think Terri was thinking about her mortality before her cardiac failure. She was suicidal. She wasn't just going about her business when her heart suddenly seized up. She was engaged in a lengthy process of self-starvation offically listed as bulimia. I have a bit of experience with this. During some periods of serious depression I've starved myself for periods of over a week. Taking this to the point where electrolyte deficiency results in autonomic signal failure (the brain's signals to the heart don't get through) requires a level of determination that leaves no question as to the intended result.

I don't have any strong feeling either way in this. The woman died a long time ago but the parents are welcome to keep the body cared for as long as it doesn't come at the expense of treating others how might actually have a discernable volition. I do think neither side is being entirely honest about all the factors that led to this moment. Terri really needed help 16 years ago. Everything since has been for naught on both sides.

"That judge should be impeached."

Feel free to pass that suggestion along to david.simmons[at]myfloridahouse.gov. He's the chairman of the Florida House Judiciary Committee. But good luck: Florida hasn't impeached a judge in ages, though we pushed two into resigning by the threat of it in the past few years.

Oh, and Ace, could you edit that "@" into an "[at]" and then delete this comment? I don't want one of my former bosses being spammed on my account.

uchhhh... I guess.

My dad had a stroke in 1995. After 7 years of no improvement but a lot of discomfort-on his part- he actually requested to be allowed to die. Even though he actually spoke the words, we were told-and he was also, that since he had never said that when of "sound mind and body" there was no option but to continue living. When did the laws change? I would never have allowed him to starve himself to death, but I am quite sure that no law would have made that option possible either. How did everything change so fast? Even though I did say that he would not have wanted to be alive in that condition,, I was never told anything but "Sorry".

I write: By all accounts, Terri Schiavo was a shy, sweet, good-hearted young lady when most of her brain, thus most of her, died in 1990. Now what was left of her was finally was allowed to pass on. May she be restored in full in the afterlife.

SpewFan writes: "One last time for old times sake:
Cedarturd, when that autopsy report comes out don't forget to grab the tissues and lotion you fucking monster. "

Once again, I am impressed by the blind hatred and venom coming from some on the "sanctity of life"
side.

Heh. That's funny, Herr Cedarford lecturing about "blind hatred."

"O Kettle, thou art black!" exclaimed the Pot.

Cedarford, why are you here? We all hate you. We think you are heartless, robotic, hypocritical, pompous, lying, illogical, knee-jerk-liberal, fucked-up scum.

Hell, even Dickie saw the writing on the wall and bailed.

Just heard the son of a bitch actually made her family leave her room when it was clear she was dying and supposedly "cradled her as she died".

He is a sick s.o.b. and thinking about him putsd me in mind of Charles Stuart (sp?) from Boston who ended up leaping off the Tobin Bridge after actually murdering his pregnant wife ....

I imagine a man like Michael Schiavo with such deep seated control issues is going to self-explode just like Charles Stuart, maybe when the findings on Terri's broken bones and possible abuse is actually investigated ..

[Edited by Ace. Ace's House Rule: Ix-ne on any alk-te about engeance-vay.]

Personally I can understand the wish to be cremated, that is my own wish, which I don't have in writing though have expressed to many family members, so I better get it in writing eh, because firstly I would prefer a memorial, than the conventional funeral and I think it is a waste of land burying all those coffins. I'm not a tree hugger, perhaps I am more pragmatic, seems a waste of money to pump my body full of chemicals and be made up to look like a wax doll for a couple of days and I don't want people remembering me like that, I do not like the fact that my last memories of all my loved ones that have passed is of the wax doll in the coffin, that didn't resemble the person I knew and loved. Whereas my parents are old style European, when they grew up the dead body sat in the parlour at home for visitations.......

Poor woman. I don't think even the dullest of trolls could deny that she got severely fucked over in life.

BTW I have seen stem-cells raised by people, but only to dismiss them a la "The Schindlers are Crazy Catholics, so obviously they wouldn't want it done, so let her pop off for all the good she'll be able to do to science." Charming, really.

And yes, Catholics can be cremated, as long as it's not done as an express defiance of the doctrine of the resurrection of the body. I doubt she and Michael could be plausibly said to have talked much about that, so doctrinally she's safe. For what it's worth.

Dogstar, you forgot "anti-Semitic" and "a douchebag."

Engance-yay is the Ord-lay's?

So let me get this straight....

Assuming cremation WAS a request of hers, you STILL don't think it matters if Michael honors her wish. Instead, it's more important to placate her parents than do what she wanted.

Wow.

What the hell does it matter to a corpse?

Hey, he killed their daughter. He could toss them a bone on the funeral.

"toss them a bone on the funeral"

ad-bay un-pay

Fuck being cremated. I'm not even sure there is a god, but I plan to have written into my will that my corpse be bronzed and placed on the steps of the Florida State Capitol. I also plan to have myself taken off the list of organ donors; if you want my kidney or corneas you can pay me big bucks -- I mean big -- while I am still alive thank you.

As for living will? Why, so they can "lose" the folder and then say "oops" when they find it after I've been helped off this mortal coil? I can pay for several more months of cable teevee with that fee. Screw living wills. Let them kill me like they're going to anyway.

[Edited by Ace. Ace's House Rule: Ix-ne on any alk-te about engeance-vay.]

Awww Ace, I was talking about unstable people and how they tend to self-destruct when the pressure gets to be more than they can handle .. Hey, look at poor Michael Jackson and his back problems!

As far as Michael Schiavo, I do not think anyone needs to wreak any engeance-vay!! That much evil concentrated in one individual is bound to cause self-destruction ..

harmonic balance and all that

:)

p.s. I'm serious -- you'll all be asking me to read your, er -- tell your fortunes one day.

A post by the scary-classy liberal troll "Rachel" was just deleted.

You know, stupid, I wouldn't permit a dancing-on-a-grave post about a dead liberal politician. Why are you classless and tasteless to dance on the grave of a dead innocent woman?

rachel,

perhaps in your bitter, shrivelled, dried up excuse for a soul, you'll realize that not everyone saddened by this turn of events was a "religious wacko"

and perhaps one day, your bitter, shrivelled, dried up excuse for female genitalia will know what a man is.

but perhaps not.

(ooops, wrong thread, but I was at least serious on this flame)

ace,

please erase mine

Jeez, call me a useless eater, I leave to vacuum the rug and assemble a bookcase and I miss more good stuff.

"Michael Schiavo has had a tendency to "remember" Terri's statements long after they were made."

This is just wrong. He testified about his conversation with Terri in 1993, at his first deposition. Cite:

"And one incident in particular, a few years back when her grandmother was -- Grandmother Shindler -- she was in and out of a coma. She was in. She was out. She was real sick. And we'd go see her, and we had a vacation planned, to come here to Florida; myself, my brother and my wife. So when we left, her grandmother was still critical. We left, got on the train, and we had this conversation about her grandmother and things like that. And we started talking about her uncle, her uncle Fred, who had lost his wife and child tragically in a train wreck. And he was on an emotional roller coaster. He was a very distraught person, agreeably, after losing your wife and child on a train wreck. And, I guess, I believe he went out one night had a few drinks and wrapped his car around a telephone pole. And her uncle was in a coma for awhile and emerged a man that she never knew anymore. He was disabled. He can't walk. He can't do things for himself. His kids are his Power of Attorney now. We got into discussion about that and she said to me, I would never want to live like that. I would want to just die."

He waited five years after that to give up hope and ask the court to decide what should be done.

It took him three years, by all accounts, to give up hope that Terri would never recover, and at that same time he testified under oath about the grandmother and uncle stories.

Incidentally, Schiavo did not refuse the parents access. The parents weren't even at the hospice; Mrs. Schindler hadn't gone since Easter. Terri Schindler's two siblings were there, and the hospice workers came in to perform a procedure and asked them to leave temporarily. Bobby Schindler refused, and challenged one of the police officers there. At the same time, Schiavo was told (in another room) that a) his wife was dying right now, and to get over there and b) Bobby Schindler was accosting a cop right outside the room. At that point, Schiavo said that they couldn't stay.

And Ace, if you don't think it's particularly important where or how someone gets buried, then don't make any promises to people. Just tell people that you aren't likely to honor any promises you keep to the dead because the living yell louder, or whatever. But if you made a promise and then break it, that's pretty disgusting.