Ace--

And they're only making it worse with that suicide pact called "The EU."

I was really hoping the Eastern Europeans would've been smarter than they've been, and steered clear of the EU. Because the last thing they need is to be embroiled in the soul-sapping bureaucratic kudzu farmed out of Brussells.

Regulations stifle economies. Period. I'm no libertarian-- *some* things need to be regulated-- but the level of control in Europe is responsible for their inferiority.

Sure, they can get Nutella cheap, and the new Jettas look nice, but in the end, they'll find themselves working in the underground sugar mines for their Islamist overlords.

Meanwhile, America will be called in to save their asses more and more, because we're the only nation that makes enough money to, you know, afford a real military capable of standing guard at the gates.

Of course, like spoiled children or cranky elderly, the Euros will grow increasingly resentful at America doing for Europe what Europe can no longer do for itself. Rather than getting up and changing the bedpan, Europe would rather sit in their own shit than let America change it for them.

Gonna be a great century. . . hope you're learning your Hindi and Chinese. . .

Cheers,
Dave at Garfield Ridge

Europe isn't going to catch us unless we do a lot wrong and they finally start doing something right. They sat there for the last 50 years watching socia-lism fail all around them, but like every good leftist they think they are the only ones smart enough to make it work. The only country that isn't backsliding is Norway, and they would be in terrible shape if they didn't have oil. I live in Mexico half the year and it's trying like hell to catapult itself into the 1980's and doing nearly as well at reaching that goal as Europe is, but that isn't exactly Europe's plan, that's just the result of their policies. As far as I've been able to determine the only growth markets in Europe are weapons sales and white flags, and one of those drives the other so they are doubly screwed. As far as I'm concerned it couldn't be happening to a more deserving group of people, but in the long run it hurts us all. Anyone know how to say "shit happens" in French?

Still can't spell socia lism without cial is, you'd think that wolud be a clear enough message to those limpdicked idiots.

Only sweet if you cheer the decline of one half of Western civilization and the triumph of Asia.

As for R&D, Bush is slashing most gov't R&D in favor of tax cuts. Private R&D is not advancing in most industries because they really don't know what can compete against China's skilled and cheap labor force. Most firms are instead sitting on piles of cash rather than invest, or joining Buffett in converting to Euros or commodities and betting against America and the dollar.

We pay 40% more per capita on a national basis for health care than any European country. We have a lower life expectancy than 90% of the Euros, fail to provide any medical insurance to 17% of our people, but give full coverage to illegal aliens. We are the only country where substantial risk of "medical bankruptcy" exists - 1 million and growing last year. Clearly while America and other nations are trying to avoid the dole, the huge pension systems, shorter workweeks and massive vacation entitlements - no nation except a faction of America is arguing that universal health care is to be avoided or dismantled.

No one is saying the Euros should throw independent contractors & low-paid workers off health care and only give it as a job benefit to higher level job holders or free to any indigent who is careful never to save any money. (and we wonder why lower income Americans are fearful of saving money?? ).

Ironically, the US is trying to get universal health care in Africa, already gives universal health care in US territories, and pays out handsomely to Israel so they can afford guns AND universal health care...

Our health system is definitely NOT the "envy of the world". Canadians with means may jump down here to avoid the lines up North for certain operations - but no constituency exists in Canada to adopt US style health care, given it's much greater expense and refusal to cover many working people.

And a final question - what portion of our modest GNP growth and job creation are due to George Bush borrowing 2 trillion from China and Japan and expanding the size of the US Gov't 38%???

And remember that China is now our main lender, is holding 600 billion in dollars it wants to spend on oil reserves and Euro weaponry, and still manages to grow it's military and GNP at 11% a year. It also has universal health care (though nowhere near as good as care given to Euros or the deluxe US system for indigents and Americans with desirable jobs) and the fastest rise in life expectancy of any nation (71 years). Russia is going the other way - from 64 years down to 53 since it's "embrace" of free market capitalism. Not that there is anything wrong with free market capitalism per se, but there are plenty of Russians, looking at both the USA and China - that now wish Russia had followed the Chinese model.

Hum! be careful about your dollar and deficit!

You Can't Bet Bottom Dollar

By Tom Plate

LOS ANGELES - Fasten your seat belts - and get ready for a major test of the core stability of the global financial system.

How do we know that a jolt is coming? It’s simple, just consider:

_ How world markets went into a serious dipsy-doodle dollar tailspin the other day after Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi raised the specter of his treasury “diversifying” its foreign-currency holdings. Implicitly referring to Japan’s huge savings pile of 840 billion U.S. dollars, Koizumi bluntly told a Diet parliamentary committee: “I think it’s necessary to have diversity.” The prime minister’s candor then triggered a sell-off of U.S. treasury investments by foreigners (who feared a plunge in the value of the dollar) that jacked up some U.S. bond prices to a seven-month high. Today’s markets are nervous about excessive foreign capital flows into the United States ; and they should be. Imagine an alcoholic whose friends “help him out” by delivering vodka instead of milk bottles to the door every day for breakfast. This is what in effect Japan (solid ally) and China (sometime economic partner) are doing by providing foreign funds to an American culture that’s overspending and under-saving.

_ How Japan and China will continue to act this way, right up until the dollar breaking-point, because the practice is in their economic interest. The large-scale dollar-buying keeps the exchange-rate value of their countries’ own currencies from rising too high, which would raise the price tags of their exports in the all-important U.S. market.

_ How so many officials moved so quickly to poo-poo the selling-frenzy as a minor overnight down-tick. All rally-round-the-currency syndromes rightly make us extremely nervous. For starters, Japanese economic officials quickly sought to downplay the prime minister’s comment. Said Hiroshi Watanabe, vice minister of finance for international affairs, “We don’t plan to take action now at all” to diversify out of dollars. Although Japan “is always considering if it’s appropriate in the long run” to hold its reserves in certain securities, he added, “nobody is considering” a shift out of dollars now. Notice, though, the qualification “now” ; twice in those two sentences alone. And note the feel-good debt-serving comment of U.S. Treasury Secretary John W. Snow, who said, “The U.S. remains the best, safest, most secure place to invest in the world. Our markets here are the deepest, the most liquid and most efficient anywhere in the world. We produce the best risk-adjusted returns, so no I’m not worried.” Well, I am.

_ How a nightmare scenario ; of a possible stampede from the dollar ; would play out emotionally in a place like Asia. Remember, China and Japan together account for about 77 percent of these foreign dollar holdings. Both countries benefit enormously from strong American consumer demand and a strong dollar. But they also remember how crudely and rudely the United States conducted itself during the Asian financial crisis (1997-98). Washington let troubled Asian countries stew in their own negative-economic juices, prevented Japan from taking a strong role, repeatedly offered China bad currency advice and didn’t pitch in to help until the currency virus was almost on its own doorstep.

To conclude: Asians remember things, Americans do not. “One of America’s biggest strengths is that it is a nation with limited memories,” writes the astute Kishore Mahbubani, in his new book, Beyond the Age of Innocence, a truly timely and essential volume of Asian political wisdom. “Asians, by contrast, have long memories. They can recall important historical events. The Asian financial crisis will be remembered for a long time. The lessons will be complex….But one clear strand will emerge in the historical memory: how a generous country walked away from them in their hour of need.”

The Bush administration is scarcely responsible for the sins of the predecessor administration. But, like it or not, it inherits those Asian memories and even though it is very much in the interests of Asia to not see the U.S. economy fall on its face, Asians are human like the rest of us. Just as Osama bin Laden punched America in the face on Sept. 11, 2001, and some people in the world cheered, don’t be surprised if Asia were to be forced into executing a serious run on the U.S. dollar and few tears are shed in Asia.

Perhaps the only question is which Asian nation will be the first to “diversify” from the dollar in large quantities. The truth is no one wants to be the first out the door in the sell-off. But it is also true that no one wants to be the last out the door when and if a dollar panic sets in. Keep those seat belts in sight.
03-13-2005 18:15

Citing Chinese growth vs. American growth is comparing apples apples and oranges and you should know that. Coming from one tenth of your capability to one eighth is no great feat. Universal health care works great, just go dig up any on the thousands of Canadians that died last year because their doctors don't wash their hands between patients or ask your doctor, he could be from Canada, looking to be paid a decent wage here in the U.S. Canadian medical schools aren't able to keep up with the drain, more doctors leave Canada to work in the U.S. than they are able to graduate every year, so the lines are getting longer. If you want cheaper health care get something done about reforming malpactrice suits. The fact that any Canadians come here for treatment means a lot compared the absolutely no Americans going there for treatment. Access to health care is a right, supposedly "free" health care is not, access to "free" health doesn't do you a lot of good if if that access isn't timely. I spent several years fighting cancer in M.D. Anderson hospital in Houston, I can assure you there are more than a few Canadians coming here for treatments, in the case of cancer any that can afford to come here, and there would be a lot more if they could afford it but they can't because of the enormous tax burden on them to pay for that "free" health care.

And we've got better music
http://www.hugi.is/hahradi/bigboxes.php?box_id=51208&f_id=1269
I've heard of Garage Bands, but Kitchen Appliance bands?

Oh my Lord, people, they're back in spades. Again with fear of the Chinaman. What gives?

Please read this very carefully:

THE CHINESE DO NOT PUBLISH RELIABLE ECONOMIC STATISTICS

Now, does that make sense to you? It's a well know fact that every economic report that comes from that crackpot government never gets revised, ever. That's impossible. Every major and minor economy has to revise its economic statistics (job growth, labor productivity, inflation, etc.) because their numbers inevitably leave out certain things that they've missed. So they go back and revise them.

Ever see this happen in the US? Of course you have. Every fucking quarter the US revises it's numbers. The Chinese never do. So, in the immortal words of Laura W, before quoting Chinese economic stats, have a nice cup of Shut the Fuck Up coffee.

In other news, Dear Leader Kim Jong Il just got off the golf course.
Though playing only the second game of his life, he managed to shoot 17 hole-in-ones and one birdie for a total score of 19.

He blames the distraction of his abiding love of his people for his poor performance. He has stepped up his practice schedule and hopes to be much improved the next time he hits the links.

See. this is why I expect the EU to start breaking up sometime during President Rice's second term. I simply can't believe that everyone in Europe falls into one of two groups: 1) People who will enter dhimmitude before they accept immigration reform or a cut in their benefits package; and 2) people who wil emigrate. Some Europeans are going to try to preserve their national identities, and since that can't be done within the framework of the EU, they'll opt out. Somehow I can't envision a European Lincoln holding the structure together.

We can expect to see a resurgence of European nationalists, impatient with groups who don't conform to the national norms and with very little love of multiculturalism. With a combination like that, what could go wrong? Dave's right, it's gonna be a great century.

Folks: The Chinese economy is headed towards collapse.

1) Bubbles occur during times when capital is being allocated in irrational ways, such as the end of the time of the dot.com boom. This is not happening in the US at the present time.

2) Bubbles also occur during times of high inflation. In January, the core CPI in the US was ZERO.

3) US interest rates are the highest of the three largest economies (US, EU, Japan). The Fed has made it clear that they plan to continue to raise interest rates. This will cause money to flow into the US as foreign investors take advantage of the relatively higher interest rates in the US.

4) Over the past two years, due to the falling dollar, many oil-rich foreign governments have been changing their currencies into other currencies such as the Euro.

5) The dollar is turning the corner and is expected to rise, but it will take years for those countries in #4 above to react and start turning their currencies back to the dollar.

6) The result of this rising dollar will be higher rates of inflation in any country that does not actively link its currency to the dollar (either via a peg or manipulation of currency). All oil contracts are denominated in dollars, even when the contract is for Eastern Hemisphere consumption (the oil never hits the US).

7) As the dollar strengthens, exports from non-dollar-linked countries will strengthen as well. However, improved export activity will come at a cost: the rising cost of dollar-denominated oil to those non-dollar-pegged countries will erode their purchasing power and boost inflation in their countries.

8) China's economy is modeled much like their Asian counterparts: It relies mainly on maintaining cash flow. With cheap credit, this hasn't been a problem, since debt can be refinanced and profitability hasn't been an issue. China's economy, however, has become overly reliant on international capital markets. Most of new China debt has been short-term debt.

9) This short-term debt is vulnerable to rising interest rates (think of your variable rate mortgages). This debt will become impossible for China to maintain, and China is going to face the start of a financial crisis and will collapse.

10) When China's economy falls, their demand for oil will fall. They currently consume about 6.5-7.0 million barrels per day, one-half of which is imported. Most of this oil is used by the country's industrial sector, not the consumer sector (which relies on coal). So if demand for oil falls in China, it'll be huge and disproportionably so. Some speculate that their demand could drop by 1 million bpd.

11) This will lower oil prices, dramatically so.

The US economy seems to be the beneficiary of this scenario, wouldn't you think?

KCTrio is fond of saying Business Week, Fortune, the WSJ, and our own eyes all lie when it comes to China. To him - the status quo must be clung to desperately because the de-industrialization of America, the plummeting dollar, the lost jobs here.....

Are all illusions!!

Brilliant, KCTrio!

Care to repeat your hoary chestnut lecture on comparative advantage, how free trade inevitably benefits all 121 sides of the global national equation.

I like your last. China is bound to collapse. So don your Ghost Dancer shirts and be happy. No need to change a thing. .....

Cedarford:

Ahh, where to begin.

My first impulse is to send you to the wonderful little photo that LauraW points us all to.

Secondly, I don't read Business Week or Fortune. I've only mentioned the WSJ in specific cases where I quoted from an article. Nice generalization. The analysis above came from sources that are not things you'd find in any of the three news magazines and papers you mentioned.

Thirdly, you haven't refuted one single sentence in my analysis. Par for the course. I believe I said to you in a previous post, what is past is prologue with you, my friend.

Shit, why bother. I'm not on you fucking list anyway.

KCT...I'm on Cedar's list. I herby appoint you as my proxy for Cedar bashing purposes.

Have fun!

Hereby, even.

lost jobs? aww, cedarford, did you get fired? i'm sorry. lucky for you the economy is looking up! you should be back in business in no time!

Jack M:

Although bashing-by-proxy is sound, I don't believe my articulation skills are as good as yours. I'm humbled that you are willing to share such an honor with me. Though I fear that I won't live up to your standards, I'll try my best. If at any time you feel that my bashing quotient is not being kept at a high level, you of course have the right to take back what you have given. You, my friend, have a very large and giving heart. But I'm going to avoid bashing in this post.

Instead, I am going to try and elicit something useful from the bastard.

Cedarford:

In lieu of allowing you the chance to come in and spew your trite bullshit (and your tired clichés that are neither felicitous nor interesting), I'm going to ask you some questions to see just how much you know about the shit you criticize.

1) Which Federal Reserve district recently put out its economic report that indicated that the economy is not firing on all cylinders?
2) How many Federal Reserve districts are there?
3) How many Federal Reserve districts reported that their respective districts' economies were firing on all cylinders?
4) Is the US Economy's agricultural sector strong or weak?
5) Is the US shipping industry strong or weak?
6) Name the two countries in the following list that are experiencing negative economic growth: Spain, France, Italy, Germany, Belgium.
7) Does the European Union have a central bank?
8) How many finance ministers has France had in the past 12 months? Name the current, and what he's promised to do.
9) What was the overall economic growth in the US last year?
10) Has Tokyo revised their projections from last year? If yes, when did they do so? Also if yes, what was their declaration?
11) What little trick is the is Japan's central bank considering to magically erase a bad economic situation in that country?
12) Bonus Question: Why are you such a troll? This will educate us all.

No bashing yet, just giving the guy a chance to actually contribute instead of tear down.

The first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem, and Europe isn't there yet. No, according to them WE are the problem -- which is why I prefer that they remain whiney... and unarmed.

Oh, a quiz! Why how thoughtful of you, KCTrio! To think that you are offering others tests to prove their worthiness in your eyes.

Shove it up your ass. Play professor elsewhere.

Jack M - don't worry. There is always a spot for Zionist toadies. Just play the victim card. It still works in America, if nowhere else.

As for KCTrio, or... excuse me....The Professor......I am still in tears about his strengthening dollar/collapsing China predictions:

The dollar just turned the corner. It's ready to rise! Countries will panic to get back into dollars. China, despite it's being the world's lender and #2 creditor nation, has a short-term debt issue....which will become impossible for China to maintain, (despite 700 billion in currency reserves at the start of 2005 that KCTrio is clueless about) and China is going to face the start of a financial crisis and will collapse. Oil will dramatically lower with China's collapse. Everything will be ducky.

Yep, KCTrio, you definitely convinced me you do not generally read business or economic periodicals....getting your info from wise men you know.....like that Wino telling you that once China collapses, he will be drinking cheap but good Bordeaux again, but in the meantime, asks you to spare a 5 for a bottle of Ripple...

Hey everybody! I'm a "Zionist Toady".

I guess that's what Truth Laid Bear meant when he said I was a "Crawly Amphibian" in the ecosystem. It sounds so much nicer the way he says it though...

Nevertheless, should my Zionist pupper masters allow it, I will continue to soldier on, head held high, secure in the knowledge that there are worst things I could be.

You know..like someone Cedar respected! I'm not sure I would be able to sleep at night with that on my conscience.

So Cedarfart, are you going to answer KCTrio's questions or not?

Or are you just going to continue to bore all of us with your Nurenburg-rally style oratory?

Let's be honest: being a delusional, Nazi, know-nothing, dickweed is no way to go through life. And I'm fairly certain you've got 3 of the 4 covered already.

I'd like to know what Cedarford bases his claim that we treat illegal aliens free on. If that's true can't those poor uninsured citizens go to the same places and say "no sabe" and get treated too?

Cedarford:

That wasn't a test. it was a simple list of questions to see if you knew the answers. The purpose of the questions wasn't to prove your worthiness in my eyes, numbnuts, it was to see if you actually knew what you were talking about.

Since you fail to engage in discourse, I felt the next best step was to invite you to answer some substantive questions. If you'd answered those questions, that might have yielded dialog. In fact, I'd have been happy to answer questions asked by you of me in return for your responses.

That was my aim. The numbers and predictions I put up there were from government statistics and forecasts put out by the respective countries, as well as forecasting reports put out by various economic thinktanks. Winos you speculate. Wrong.

I don't know why I even try with you. You spew your shit, refuse to debate, then when asked to debate you attack the messenger.

I'm not a professor. I am a student. A student of learning and growing. I have this belief that I can learn from all human beings, even you. But you aren't willing to afford me that opportunity. Instead, you resort to insults and sarcasm.

You, my dear sir, are incapable of reason.

Assclown.

"Shove it up your ass. Play professor elsewhere. "

Anybody else laugh when they read this, because of the source?
Like he's not the one who usually leaves interminable (crazy, yet still boring) lectures in Ace's comments.

Hey Kettle, its me, Pot. You're black.

DAVE:

Gonna be a great century. . . hope you're learning your Hindi and Chinese. . .

... and the Quron, and Farsi, and Arabic, and Persian.

Senator Crackbuster -

It's a tired debating tactic. Claiming the right to demand via interrogation that your opponent answer a long list of questions. Then claim your right to judge your opponent if he complies with your long laundry list of scutwork and research. Then, from a position of a higher to lower - to evaluate your answers and then deign to criticize, to punish, to forgive.

It was a common tactic of Marxists, who at least had the power of a gun to force the "List of demands compliance, right and power to judge, then to evaluate, criticize, punish or even forgive your supplicant".

The tactic was embraced by the CPUSA and their spawn that migrated to the Left. It is practiced in Universities by professors that are challenged. And now by the spawn of the Left that track in neocon circles.

The best answer to cocksuckers like KCTrio and his toady boy Jack M is to refuse to play.

No power to interrogate. No power to judge, granted.

Though it might be fun for KCTrio to see his pseudo-Marxist tactics work from time to time as someone researches what the number of French finance ministers were and who they are and what they believed...or struggle with long answers to subjective questions like if the agricultural sector is strong or weak - taking into account factors like subsidies by subindustry, prices, profit margins, and the overall fact that we just went negative in our agricultural current account for the first time in our history.

No, it is better to debate on the claims.

Which in KCTRios case - projecting a rebounding strong dollar, the collapse of a country with 600 billion in cash reserves, and deflating oil prices following China's immenent economic collapse - are just frickin' ludicrous - and his parliamentary attempts to change the subject to his "right" to examine other posters knowledge of Fed Reserve Banks......are equally ludicrous attempts to deflect from being called on his dangerous theory that things are just ducky and will sort themselves out - China will collapse and we only have to follow Dear Leader.

KCTrio - I am a student. A student of learning and growing. I have this belief that I can learn from all human beings, even you. But you aren't willing to afford me that opportunity. Instead, you resort to insults and sarcasm.

No, there isn't a scrap of sincerity to you. You are a piece of crap attempting to communicate from a self-annointed position of judgement. Your student days, your days of learning - such as they were - were over a long time ago....

72 Raisins -

China won't pass us for another 20 years, and thanks to India, plus the national drive in China to make it's students fluent in English ---English will be the lingua franca.

If you want a good language to pick up, select what will be one of China's satellite nation-partners inside their politico-economic sphere as they expand and dominate Asia - that cling to their national language from pride. Korea, Thailand, Vietnam, and possibly the Philippines will be China's partners in 20 years. Korea has an easier language to learn than China, same with Vietnamese, and Thai....which are phoenetic rather than inflective...

Taiwan of course will just be another part of China in 20 years.

In the Western Hemisphere, just learning some Chinese phrases and having a good understanding of China's culture will serve you well if you wish to work in Canadian oil, the Panama Canal, or with China in other lands here they own on the West Coast, especially around Vancouver, BC.

There are also some 2,000 to 3,000 Chinese front firms...almost as many as the Israelis and Russians operate - that specialize in licitly or illicitly transferring areas of technology America still has a dominant position in back to their home country or 3rd party sales..But you can get in trouble if you are ensnarled in an espionage or illegal tech transfer scheme - as some Israeli-Americans were with some military telecomm gear that somehow went to Shanghai. The line between spying and being legitimate is vague and may be determined by how much money was contributed to a Clinton or a Bush re-election fund to get permissions in place to sell off another piece of American intellectual Property to a high bidder.

Russia will sell to anyone. Our "dear friend" Israel to anyone but Muslims and them too if the money is right. China just wants US tech and competitive advantage transferred to itself.....

"Crackbuster" Cedar? Really..that's the best you can up with? Senator Pali-land-seizer was much more clever.

But I suppose coming from a disciple/fellow traveller of "Psyche Ward" Churchill, anything more interesting would be to much to ask for from you.

Nevertheless, you seem not to appreciate the give and take of an actual conversation. It's a shame you refuse to answer KCT's questions, as it might have lead to some honest discourse on the topic.

Alas, you prefer your usual long winded, paranoid, uninterrupted diatribes. Much like...what's his name? Ah yes, Hitler. Or Castro.

Truly, Cedar, totalitarianism becomes you! You wear it almost as proudly as you do your "pole-smoking" anti-semetism.

Signed,

Your momma's "crackbuster"
Senator Phil McCracken

LOL at Senator!

Hey Sen...guess what..it looks like Cedar is "4 for 4" on your list after all.

I noticed that Cedarford still hasn't given any source to back up his claim that illegal aliens get free treatment here. That's OK though, I'll be here waiting until he does. And reminding him of it from time to time.

CedarTARD wrote: "Korea has an easier language to learn than China, same with Vietnamese, and Thai....which are phoenetic rather than inflective...
"

You moron, you can't get anything right, can you? Vietnamese is a tonal language as are the major Chinese dialects. Ong la ngoui dien! Xin ong di di.

Cedarford:

Thanks for the filth! It's pure entertainment. And thanks for defining my character for me.

I'm not a student? Wow! You are stunningly incisive in your observations.

In fact, just this last year I read the entire writings of Abraham Lincoln, and Thomas Jefferson's writings about the constitution of the state of Virginia. And I also re-read a biography of Isaac Newton called "Never at Rest." I had thought that I'd learned lots of new things. But now that you've enlightened me about myself, I guess I wasn't a student or learning anything while I read those books.

I had my time with German materialist philosophers in college. Perhaps you'd like to discuss the merits of Hegel's Phenomenology of Spirit sometime.

Ranting about shit you know nothing about is what you seem best at. You are neither a teacher nor a student. You're merely a jackass.

In closing, here's a quote from a famous philosopher that I believe sums you up quite nicely:

How one tries to improve bad arguments: Some people throw a bit of their personality after their bad arguments, as if that might straighten their paths and turn them into right and good arguments--just as a man in a bowling alley, after he has let go of the ball, still tries to direct it with gestures.

Just for kicks, name the philosopher. I know how much you love quizzes.

One more thing, Cedarford:

You know, I can see how you might have taken my initial list of questions as some kind of trick to entrap you. But that takes a rather nervous mind to assume that.

But just to be on the safe side, and grant you the right to reject answering the questions I posted, I clarified in a follow-up post the purpose of my questions. I promised not to entrap you, and even mentioned that if you answered mine, I'd happily answer yours. I even said I was hoping that they would lead to a productive discussion between us or others.

So now you've shown your true colors. First, you assumed menacing motives from me in my initial post, even though I specifically wrote that I was trying to engage you. Then I clarified, and you still saw entrapment.

May I ask, why not try taking someone's words at face value for a change? It could do your mind and heart some good.

Bullwinkle - Can't you determine if indigent illegals here get legally mandated care here yourself? Have you ever used Google? Do you know the courts ruled that illegals showing up at emergency rooms have to be treated - lack of money is no grounds for refusal? That illegals w/o funds, even refugees w/no funds get medication, operations, and the appropriate hospitalization? Nursing homes? The costs are just passed on to the rest of us, just like the ambulance rides winos get.

KCTrio - Demanding someone you disagree with answer a lengthly list of unrelated questions suddenly brought up - is a cheap debating tactic. Not just the Marxists but modern demagogues like Al Sharpton love it. It puts the interrogator, if complied with - in a position to dominate the rest of the conversation - the opponent - in a supplicant role of agreeing to be judged by "The Party Official"; "The Professor", "The Aggrieved Civil Rights Leader".

And you know that. Hence, you are a cocksucker - and I don't play those Marxist games to humor you.

OK, if that's the case then all those uninsured Americans you're whining about have the exact same option. In your attempt to make it sound like illegals get free treatment and citizens can't you proved that the ideology that drives your statements is dishonest. An honest opinion doesn't rely upon dishonesty to prove itself. Citing Chinese economic growth vs. American, claiming that Americans aren't getting free treatment and illegals are, and every other instance of your dishonesty proves a couple of things. You are a dishonest person willing to resort to lying to support a dishonest agenda. Congratulations, you are now officially a liberal!

Bullwinkle -

I thought the Google reminder would serve as a helpful hint to at least look at it before you opened your mouth and made other dense projections.....

Bullwinkle, the indigent US citizen gets free treatment, too. The key word is indigent. The other post mentioned winos getting free care. Did you think they were illegal winos???

But if you are a lower middle class uninsured American, with seizable assets, you risk bankruptcy over a medical crisis, because unlike the illegal or the wino - your care is not free - you pay for it out of future earnings or making a new start but with the stigma of bankruptcy and turning over seizable assets to the bankruptcy court to satisfy the legal liens placed by the hospital bill collector.

To add insult to injury, uninsured American citizens are billed at a higher rate than covered citizens who work out discounts via their insurerers - and - you pay for the illegals and bums free care with part of your bill.

That is why we have 1 million medical-related bankruptcies - the only advanced nation where masses of people are financially destroyed by a medical condition or accident, even injuries sustained in a criminal attack.

That is why hospitals in regions with high numbers of illegals are going under. They have to treat up to half the patients they get for free...

Please take the time to educate yourself better before accusing others of lying or worse - being a, a, a LIBERAL!!! You come across as a cretin otherwise - which I'm beginning to suspect isn't too far off the mark.

I don't know why you threw the unrelated China GNP growth vs. American into the mix, but again, do yourself a favor and take the time to read the facts...