If I attacked a customer while an agent of the company I work for, for any reason, I would be summarily fired. Period!

No pay cut, no suspension, just a personal escort to the door, and no golden parachute!

If he took a swing at you for no reason and you swung back, you'd be fired, automatically?

I believe in about as broad a concept of self-defense as there is. Self-defense is like a religion for me. The right of self-defense is the cornerstone of civilization. And I'm not at all convinced that it shouldn't be OK to use lethal force to prevent commission of a felony (one of the old-school felonies, at least, like robbery, etc.).

But this was not self-defense. It was anger. It was revenge. Throwing a beer on someone is an assault, yes, but it is not felony assault, and it does not justify the use of force. The player decided to use violence to protect his status and reputation, not to protect his life or safety.

As for what the NBA does, I couldn't care less. Become respectable? Sure. Pretend to become respectable? That's probably more likely. Embrace their shittiness? Go for it. Start a whole new sport of thug-ball (where players are awarded points not only for putting a ball in the right place, but for coming up with clever insults of their opponents and/or their mothers while doing so!)? Knock yourself out.

-- George

At my company, I'd be fired for fighting a customer, even if he threw the first punch. Knowing that, I'd make sure I landed the last 20 punches before I went out the door.

BTW, I'm having a hard time believing Artest knew who threw the beer at him. He was laying flat on his back looking up when it landed. It looked like he jumped up, found the smallest white guy in the stands and started throwing his slappy, sloppy punches. His victim looked like Jarrod from the Subway commercials.

Isn't there any NBA player that punches like a man?

Michael Dennis

Whoa. There are customers, and there are criminals. The beer throwing dude was a criminal. Employees shouldn't have to show the same deference to criminals that they do to customers.

Otherwise you get situations like this, at Long John Silvers a while ago: http://www.wnbc.com/news/3784002/detail.html

This isn't so much a defense of Artest as an indictment of silly no-resist policies.

Michael D--I think that guy Jackson got in one really good knock in the stands.

--See Dubya

I'm with Ace on this one.

Professional athletes are one asshole away from a career ending injury. Hell, remember when the referee threw the penalty flag into the Cleveland Browns offensive lineman's face (Courtney Brown?) and nearly blinded him in one eye (as it was he sat out almost 2 full seasons recovering)? That was a freak accident that nearly cost Brown his career. The opportunity for a permanent injury escalates directly when people are intending to do harm.

Very few workplaces require that as a condition of work, you expose yourself to 15,000 lunatics every other night. Does this justify going into the stands? Not on its face. But it also should mitigate the gut reaction of "if I got in a fist fight at Pier 1 I would be canned".

Granted being splashed by a beer isn't a big deal. But suppose it had been AA-batteries? Or golf balls? Or any other object that could be brought in and, when hurled from the 15th row, could do some career ending damage?

I agree with Charles Barkley on this one: If a fan crosses the line, the player has a right to protect his livelihood. Especially in a situation where it is clear that the league, the teams, the officials, the security staffs, and the law enforcement personnel at the event are incapable of keeping things under control, or are simply overwhelmed by events.

Should Artest (and the others) be convicted of criminal assault/battery? Not if I'm on the jury.

Should they be held responsible under civil law? Maybe. Some of them put a pretty good beat down on truly innocent people, and they ought to be compensated for the injuries they incurred. But that one fan who went onto the court? Hell, for all Artest and O'Neill knew, that dude could have been carrying a knife, and he came out of the stands towards them. Think that's far fetched? Ask Monica Seles.

In a situation as chaotic as we saw at the Palace the other evening, I don't blame players for protecting themselves. Just because you buy a ticket doesn't mean you have purchased the right to physically abuse the folks on the court/field. Boo them, get in their heads, fine, that's acceptable. PLacing those guys/gals in harms way is not.

/soapbox

-Senator Phil A. Buster

Uh Ace? He ran into the stands and started beating the wrong effing guy! And then was punching other fans!

He also laid down on the scorer's table to taunt the fans, not to cool down as some are saying now. He was basically looking for an excuse to lash out. If I taunt a dog into biting me and he does, then I go and beat him, whose fault is it?

Artest has only been suspended 6 times in the last two years and refused anger clases.

Artest has gotten a bum rap with his 'repeat offender' tag. He's no Rasheed Wallace.

Anyway, I think Detroit management and their fans are at quite substantially culpable here. And going forward, what incentives do clubs have to protect opposing players? In this case, Detroit eviscerated their EC main competition by letting their fans run wild.

European soccer tournaments have the right idea for this sort of crap: take away home games. I suggest the Pistons should have to play their first round 'home' playoff games at a neutral venue.

someone

I disagree. Call it a "Thug League" or change the name to ThugBall, but don't call it professional. It seems to me that the players started it on the court when the shooter got fouled. Mayhem ensues. A fan shows his disgust at all the showboat crap and dumps a beer on a guy just aching to be the center of attention. Don't tell me that laying on the scorer's table wasn't an act of taunting and provocation. He wanted someone to "make" him grow up and fly right. Puh-leeeze.

If I wanna see thugs playing roundball, I can visit some of Clinton's midnight basketball leagues for free. The fans in the arena were paying the players to play professionally.

Jackie Robinson is crying a river. He was hit by trash, taunted, and called every vile name in the book, but he by-gawd loved the game of baseball and was a professional in every way.

I have seen the same thing reported that he ran up into the crown and hit the wrong guy. If thats true and given that this is just the latest in a long string of moronic things done by Artest the NBA should boot his butt out for good because it is obvious that this guy isnt going to learn. Ever. Also he should be charged and spend some time in jail.
That being said every one of those fans that they can track down who did something should be carted off to jail also. The NBA should fine the hell out of Detroit for a serious lack of security ,maybe ban beer sales (at the very least they should be banned for a while), and perhaps force them to erect a barrier between the fans and the court.
The NBA should make it clear you never go up into the stands no matter what. Not only for the safety of the fans but also for the safety of the players. His going up into the stands caused a few tossed beers to turn into a riot that saw tossed chairs and fans coming down onto the floor and put at risk the players and staff that we’re not involved in the thing to begin with. And really, Artest is lucky. In a lot of sports crowds he wouldn’t have made it back out of the stands in one piece.

LIGHTNING BOLT! Best dorky video clip EVER! Thanks Ace! That made my day.

George D

Sorry Ace-- I see where you're coming from, but it doesn't apply here.

Artest went after the wrong guy. Which completely invalidates the self-defense argument.

And Artest deseves everything he got because of that.

However, I think Steven Jackson should've been suspended the rest of the season, same as Artest. He went into the stands, not to break up the fight, but to start swinging himself-- at anyone and everyone in his way. At least Artest had an excuse-- a lame one, but an understandable one.

Bottom line: whatever your opinion about the fight, the NBA, the rules, and the suspension, the important point isn't what happened to the players, or what happened to the fighting fans. It's what happened to every innocent fan caught in the middle of that fight. Those people did not ask for that, nor did they deserve to be in the fight by virtue of their actions (or, in this case, their inaction).

That all said. . . man, that was pretty effin cool to watch, eh? ;-)

Cheers,
Dave at Garfield Ridge

P.S. Don't get me wrong-- I believe 100% in the right to self-defense. When Artest and others got approached by the fans *on the court*, they were completely in their rights to clock 'em. However, the whole ugly mess should never have gotten to that point, period.

The penalty will NOT be reduced. The aftermath is strictly David Stern vs. Ron Artest. Guess who's going to win?

I was just speaking to a friend who, it turns out, reads my blog (although I'm supposed to be f'n' anonymous; thanks, Ron!) and he was making that exact point-- Artest had no idea who threw the beer, and in fact went after a guy HOLDING A BEER, which would probably be the one guy you know for sure didn't throw a beer, being that, you know, he's still holding his and all.

It's a good point.

I think the fact that they're only talking about "battery" charges about fans is the GIANT EFFING ELEPHANT in the middle of the room that nobody wants to pay attention to. Regardless if you get hit with a soda, you have no right to jump into a stand and punch somebody in the face. Maybe, and maybe it's me here folks, but you shouldn't have been provoking/instigating the situation by going and laying down on a table, arms behind your head, with a smug "f*ck you" look on your face, when, you know, IT'S AN AWAY GAME! That guy is just plain retarded - as far as his rights? Look at the game he plays - look how many times THAT a$$hole has been booted/fined for his temper. Whatzit like 5?!? He's no angel. Isn't this also the same guy who wanted time off to promote a rap album....oh wait, that's half the league.

All I'm sayin, is if anyone gets sued, I wanna be readin the names of the basketball players on the list.

Damn - that was my rant

-Fat kid

Ace,

Um, no.

If a fan throws any object, from a cup of ice to a brick at a player, on the court, in transition to/from the locker-room, or outside of the stadium, it is assault. The appropriate, professional, and responsible thing for the player to do is point out that fan and have the fan arrested.

End.of.Story.

If the fan is on the field of play and then assaults a player, then and only then does the player have the right (and responsibility) to physically defend himself against the threat of injury.

The field of play and its boundries are sancrosanct, and neither shall the fan cross into it or the player cross out of it.

End.of.Story.II.

This was David Stern's message and he is correct. Yes, the fans, security, coaches, players, all are in-some-part responsible for the melee at the Palace at Auburn Hills.

But Ron Artest and his teammates must and will be made examples of for the sake of the game.

And lastly, the fact that Mr. Artest has had a history of explosive and out-of-control behavior only makes more certain the league's (Mr. Stern's) judgement against him.

MTT

Ace,

Er, sacrosanct.

Spellcheck.is.my.friend.

MTT

Isn't there any NBA player that punches like a man?

Michael Dennis

Yeah, "Tree Washington". Hit Rudy Tomjanovich with one punch, fractured all the bones on one side of his face, detatched his retina. Should he come back and give lessons to 6'10 Ghetto thugs like Artest on how to really punch??

As for blame, yeah, you have the thugs and their whole lowball lifestyle poisoning the NBA - but lets not forget the fans....Who are now taught that a sporting event is all about taunting, busting balls, dissing, cursing a player's mother, throwing stuff at them in an attempt to "throw them off their game" or just get attention cast on the fan with the most belligerant mouth.

In Pro football, players have knocked some fans cold when they went on the field in the middle of a game, and the "hit" is replayed and the player is patted on the back. Baseball arrests hecklers and anyone throwing stuff. Soccer hooligans have paid for their riots by being banned from travel to other countries, and banned from all soccer league stadiums.

The NBA has tolerated the trash-mouths and beverage throwers - they have to crack down on the fans as well as the players.

What about the guy Artest is seen punching towards the end of the tape (or the amount that is normally seen)? This is on the court after Artest is pulled out of the stands. Artest gets some beer thrown on him from behind and to the left. He see a guy to his right and starts taking a couple of swings at him. The guy said he did nothing and said nothing before Artest hit him.

I went to a basketball game the other night and a hip-hop awards show broke out.

Sorry, Ace, but I think you're wrong on this one. Retaliating is not self-defense, and even less so when you have to go out of your way and go INTO THE STANDS.

Artest deserves to have his ass handed to him on a platter, and if he never played again, I wouldn't care. Then again, it's not like I care about the NBA in general.

- NickS.

Hmm ... two links to the D&D video in one day ... must mean something ...

Think we figured it out:

http://pullonsupermanscape.typepad.com/pull_on_supermans_cape/2004/11/ace_lifts_his_k.html

Moveabletype botching our link:

First part:

http://pullonsupermanscape.typepad.com/pull_on_supermans_cape/

Rest of it:

2004/11/ace_lifts_his_k.html

I may be wrong. Like I said, it does seem that Artest didn't even go after the actual assailant, which de-mitigates the mitigation. You can't just start punching random people because someone you can't identify threw a beer on you.

Still-- a year's suspension is a pretty harsh sentence. It's no slap on the wrist. That's at least a couple of million dollars he's losing, and from the only five or six years he'll be capable of earning that kind of jack.

Let me remind everyone that Ray Lewis kinda-sorta was involved in a murder. Not a murder at a sporting event, yeah, but how much does that matter?

THIS WAS NOT SELF DEFENSE!!! Artest acted out of a desire for revenge. It was just an escalation of violence.

First, Artest attacked the wrong guy. He wasn't simply mistaken. Even if he was, his mistake was not reasonable. He just didn't care.

Second, there is absolutely no reason to honestly believe that "for all Artest and O'Neill knew, that dude could have been carrying a knife, and he came out of the stands towards them." If they sincerely believed this, they would not have charged into the stands, fists flying. It defies common sense. They did the exact opposite of what someone does when he genuinely fears for his safety. They did exactly what someone does when he wants to punish someone for insulting his status or reputation.

It was really just a stupid fist-fight, but events like this helps to form public opinion about basic social mores. Teenagers learn from this sort of thing. The popular attitude toward violence and self-defense is shaped by situations like this.

Prosecute the beer-thrower, too. Misdemeanor assault, or whatever it is. Also, the arena and/or sports team would be irresponsible if it did not ban that guy from future games.

As a side note, Artest's suspension is not "punishment." Punishment is what the State does. The League and its players are just parties to a contract. The League is not in a position of authority. It may have the right to enforce its rights under the contract, but that's it.

I'm not so sure all these fans who claim to have done nothing actually did nothing. The fan Artest went after says Artest asked him if he threw the beer and he begged off. Well, guess what? The guy who is accused of flinging the beer says he didn't throw it, but they have it on video. Same guy?

And another guy says he was doing nothing when he got whacked. But someone sucker-puches O'Neill and then gets whacked. And that's on film too. Same guy?

So don't put too much faith in these guys telling you they didn't do anything. There's a reason they're the ones being questioned about it and most likely it's because they were involved.

There has to be some limit. That ass Robin Ficker used to scream horrible things at Patrick Ewing from about 5 feet away throughout the entire game and no one did a damn thing about it. You don't think that leads to this?

They should kick the Detroit franchise out of the league permanently over this incident, and suspend the Indiana franchise for at least a year. I guess I'm in the minority, thinking the primary fault for this is with Detroit, and suggesting such a severe penalty... but I don't see how else to insure that it never happens again. What they've done is a slap on the wrist at best.

The fans should either be better-behaved, or they should not be permitted to sit so close to the floor. The Detroit franchises knew well in advance how poorly-behaved their fans were.

After a city loses a team because the fans are too boorish to have even the most remote sense of sportsmanship, maybe it'll revive some of the social pressure to act like decent human beings, even at a sporting event.