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October 08, 2004

The Second Debate

I've only watched the foreign policy section of the debate so far, but Bush is definitely far stronger, crisper, clearer, and more passionate this go-round.

I think Kerry is still doing reasonably well, but he's not coming across nearly as well as he did the first time. He reminds me of that Far Side cartoon where all the dog hears is "Blah, blah, blah, Ginger, blah, blah, blah Ginger." The only thing I hear him saying on terrorism is "blah, blah, blah, France, allies, blah, blah, France, allies." I don't think Bush attacked him hard enough here -- I'd like him to ask John Forbes Kerry precisely how many foreign troops joined us in the first Gulf War and actually engaged in fighting ; I'd like him to give us a number of how many foreign troops he'd attract now; I'd like him to explain why, if he cites Bush's father's efforts as the paradigmatic Grand Coaltion, he voted against that war anyway.

That said, Bush is actually responsive to most of Kerry's attacks this time; last time Bush seemed determined to say "hard work" no matter what Kerry's charge. He's on the defensive most of the time, but despite that disadvantageous stance, he's battling back all right.

I'm trying to put my partisan bias aside here. But thusfar, I'm frustrated that Bush hasn't laid this guy out cold, but I still have to give it to him on points. No knockouts, but Kerry's face has gotten scuffed up pretty good.

Other Opinions: Allah's sampling indicates wide disagreement. But hey-- at least disagreeing between a draw or slight Kerry win or Bush win on points is better than well-nigh universal agreement that Bush lost.

posted by Ace at 10:31 PM

Comments

Just checked the MSNBC poll, kerry is winning 74-26 with 20,000 votes, and the debate has JUST finished.

Oddly enough, when I went to their site directly after the VP debate, and oddly enough, Edwards was winning that vote by about 74-26....

Posted by: DelphiGuy on October 8, 2004 10:40 PM

Gaffe O' the evening "WTC was when? Er, uh, 1993"?

Posted by: Roundguy on October 8, 2004 10:41 PM

"I'd like him to ask John Forbes Kerry precisely how many foreign troops joined us in the first Gulf War and actually engaged in fighting"

I've been looking for that statistic, myself. I was in the 1st Gulf War and I remember seeing nothing but American and British troops right up until we liberated Kuwait. I spent 30 days in Kuwait City after the liberation and that's when I saw troops of every flavor all over the place(usually standing in front of me in the line to use the phones.)

Posted by: Golden Boy on October 8, 2004 10:41 PM

I thought Bush won when he asked America who needs
some wood.

Posted by: anonymous on October 8, 2004 11:32 PM

I own a timber company?

That's news to me.

Need some wood?

Posted by: W on October 8, 2004 11:35 PM

I knew you'd say that, Chimpy McBushyburton.

Posted by: a democrat on October 8, 2004 11:38 PM

I know what John Kerry was writing on his note pad...."Oh, Shit!"

Posted by: Brent Sutton on October 8, 2004 11:41 PM

According the website that Cheney meant to send people to in the Vice-Presidential Debate, Factcheck.org, under the current administration's definition of "small-business owner" Bush is indeed the "owner" of a timber company.

Posted by: Batman on October 8, 2004 11:44 PM

Holy tax fraud, Batman. Another tax loophole is exactly
what I needed. Thanks.

Posted by: Republican Robbin' on October 8, 2004 11:55 PM

Can we now start calling Kerry the "Baldrick Candidate"? His every answer seemed to include the phrase "I have a cunning plan."

Posted by: H.D. Miller on October 9, 2004 12:02 AM

I think Bush is saving the "knockout" punch for the final debate. Anything he he would have done up to now would just have given Kerry a chance to regroup and fight back the next time. But, with a knockout in the last debate, Kerry will no longer have a chance to counteract it on stage with the President, on live TV in front of 50 million voters.

I'm looking for Bush to eat Kerry for lunch during the last debate.

Everybody wants Bush to win now, and they're wrong. Bush knows that peaking too early is a great plan for failure. On the other hand, 25 days to go and I'm biting my nails.

Posted by: Remy Logan on October 9, 2004 12:11 AM

But, I have a plan...
--click--
But, I have a plan...
--click--
But. I have a plan...
--click--
But, I have a plan...
--click--
But, I have a plan...
--click--
But. I have a plan...

Posted by: Gary Lewis on October 9, 2004 12:13 AM

No... the gaffe of the evening was on the abortion question... by Kerry... "Judicial Intervention"

Posted by: Gary Lewis on October 9, 2004 12:15 AM

Kerry:...And looking around here, at this group here, I suspect there are only three people here who are going to be affected: the president, me, and, Charlie, I'm sorry, you too.

So basically, the audience is a bunch of losers whoe doesn't ever have to worry about making $200K

Posted by: Rock on October 9, 2004 12:27 AM

Rock-

Yep. Kerry earned his elitist stripes with great aplomb tonight.

"All you guys look too poor to associate with me, but I've got a plan to be your President."

Guess that was focus group tested.

Posted by: Birkel on October 9, 2004 01:06 AM

Best Kerry debate performance analysis ever is by Gary Lewis:

"But, I have a plan...
--click--
But, I have a plan...
--click--
But. I have a plan...
--click--
But, I have a plan...
--click--
But, I have a plan...
--click--
But. I have a plan..."

As I live-blogged the debate thie exact series of statement from John Kerry seemed to exit from his mouth when he spoke.

Posted by: Chad Evans on October 9, 2004 01:19 AM

I felt sick to my stomach after the first debate. Bush was embarassing, though I agreed with him on substance. Bush won this most recent debate, and I can finally hold my head up high again. :)

Posted by: VI on October 9, 2004 01:40 AM

In the beginning of the debate, Bush appeared to be genuinely angry. He was obviously annoyed by Kerry and his galling hypocrisy. But his anger came out the wrong way; it seemed as though he was lashing out at the audience.

Then Bush started to relax, and that's when he assumed command of the debate. Kerry was reduced to repeating over and over again that "I have a plan". Bush, meanwhile, cracked jokes, exuded warmth, and managed to hammer Kerry on several points without looking nasty.

Bush's performance may not represent a decisive victory, but his impressive showing will re-energize Bush supporters, who were in despair over his dismal performance last week, and help to recover lost ground.

[Industrial Waste]

Posted by: Penn on October 9, 2004 02:26 AM

Whatever the facts, America definitely needs some
wood. If you know what I mean.

Posted by: anonymous on October 9, 2004 03:13 AM

Watching the debate I was struck by the fact that Bush looked like a real person. Kerry looked like he could star as himself in 'Team America World Police'.

Posted by: Greg on October 9, 2004 08:03 AM

Here's what I think: Only a spell of uncharacteristic modesty is keeping ol' Andrew Sullivan from nominating himself for one of his "Sontag Awards."

Posted by: Short Shock on October 9, 2004 08:29 AM

I liked it when Kerry said that promoting abortions in 3rd world countries would help with the AIDS crises ... how does that work?

Posted by: Carin on October 9, 2004 09:02 AM

" That's why I think it's important. That's why I think it's important for the United States, for instance, not to have this rigid ideological restriction on helping families around the world to be able to make a smart decision about family planning. You'll help prevent AIDS. You'll help prevent unwanted children, unwanted pregnancies. You'll actually do a better job, I think, of passing on the moral responsibility that is expressed in your question and I truly respect it."

Posted by: Carin on October 9, 2004 09:10 AM

Mr. and Mrs. Kerry paid 12% of their income in taxes last year. The Bush's paid 28%. If Kerry was serious about the rich paying their fair share, surely he and the rich Mrs. could have instructed their accountant to pay a larger share?

Mr. Kerry was definitely deterioriating in front of the camera. At the end he was reduced to holding on to his wife for reassurance.

Posted by: Lovely on October 9, 2004 11:08 AM

This says it all...

debate summary photo

Posted by: Gary Lewis on October 9, 2004 11:47 AM

People saw Bush as a man passionate about his job, passionate about America, and passionate especially about this war and how we fight it. This is exemplified when Bush forcefully rebutted Kerry after he yet again demeaned and belittled the contributions of our allies, something Charlie apparently didn't want Bush to do. This was good diplomacy by proxy, really.

They saw in Kerry an elitist, pandering fence-sitter who couldn't lead his sandwich out of a paperbag without summarizing his options and focus grouping them.

Certainly a win for Bush, not a KO, but this is only the second round.

By the way, did anyone notice the woman's face, the one who asked the abortion question, after Kerry finished? She looked incredibly depressed.

Posted by: Alan on October 9, 2004 12:15 PM

Rock 12:27AM Tax cuts for the richest 1% is a loser. It failed to work in creating jobs via that old joke - the "trickledown" fantasy. It exists because the fatcats at the Club for Growth bought the Repubs to whore for it. Just like the Dems are paid whores of the rich trial lawyers blocking tort reform.

Both sides use "class envy!" charges to protect the loot gains of either wealthy biz owners or trial lawyers.

Kerry, fortunately for Republicans, is a rich elitist who is not the best person to say that rich people paying far less of a total tax rate - that combo of local, state, payroll and Federal income taxes - 11% in Kerry's case vs. the 30-35% total tax paid out by the middle class - is a screwing in progress in need of reform so the wealthy pay total tax rates closer to the middle classes burden. As Warren Buffet keeps reminding us - his secretary pays far more of each dollar she earns to the government than he does.

Kerry has many character flaws and negatives. The idea of him being in charge of national security and rubberstamping Teddy's 4 Supreme Court selectees not the least of them.

But Republicans best recognize trickledown has failed to create jobs, failed toget Jews and their enormous political cash gifts to switch sides, and if you are seen as stiffing 99% of the citizenry to borrow Chinese money to gift the 1% with huge "tax cuts" - you risk the Presidency unless you change a failed policy - or risk another 1994 Congressional debacle generated by one party sticking with failed policies.

Posted by: Cedarford on October 9, 2004 04:03 PM

These ultimate racing pocket bikes are today's fastest growing products in the motor sport vehicle industry, aside from electrics scooters and gas scooters.

Posted by: pocket bike on October 28, 2004 05:26 PM

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What? Skeleton of the most famous Musketeer, D'Artagnan, possibly discovered in Dutch church closet.
Dumas picked four names of real musketeers out of a history book, D'Artagnan, Athos, Aramis, and Porthos. So there was an actual D'Artagnan, though he made most of the story up. (Or, you know, all of it.)*

Charles de Batz de Castelmore, known as d'Artagnan, the famous musketeer of Kings Louis XIII and Louis XIV, spent his life in the service of the French crown.
The Gascon nobleman inspired Alexandre Dumas's hero in "The Three Musketeers" in the 19th century, a character now known worldwide thanks to the novel and numerous film adaptations.
D'Artagnan was killed during the siege of Maastricht in 1673, and there is a statue honoring the musketeer in the city. His final resting place has remained a mystery ever since.

A lot of Dumas's stories are based on bits of real history. The plot of the >Three Musketeers, about trying to recover lost diamonds from the queen's necklace, was cribbed from the then-almost-contemporaneous Affair of the Queen's Necklace. And the Man in the Iron Mask is based on real accounts of a prisoner forced to wear a mask (though I think it was a velvet mask).
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Fun fact: You know the beginning of A Fistful of Dollars where the local gunslingers make fun of Clint Eastwood's donkey and Eastwood demands they apologize to the donkey? That's lifted from The Three Musketeers. Rochefort mocks D'Artagnan's old, brokedown farm horse and D'Artagnan is incensed.

A commenter asked which should be read first, The Hobbit of LOTR?
Easy, no question -- read The Hobbit first. It's actually the start of the story and comes first chronologically. It sets up some major characters and major pieces in play in LOTR.
Also, the Hobbit is Beginner-Friendly, which LOTR isn't. The Hobbit really is a delightful book, and a fast read. It's chatty, it's casual, it's exciting, and it's funny. In that dry cheeky British humor way. I love that the narrator is constantly making little asides and commentary, like he's just sitting next to you telling you this story as it occurs to him.
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Oh, I should say: The Hobbit is written as if it's for children, but one of those smart children's stories that are also for adults. Don't worry, there's also real fighting and violence and horror in it, too.
LOTR is written for adults. (It's said that Tolkien wrote both for his children, but LOTR was written 17 years later, when his children were adults.) Some might not like The Hobbit due to its sometimes frivolous tone. Me, I love it. I find it constantly amusing. Both are really good but there is a starkly different tone to both. LOTR is epic, grand, and serious, about a world war, The Hobbit is light and breezy, and about a heist. Though a heist that culminates in a war for the spoils.

The Hobbit Challenge: Read two more chapters. I didn't have much time. Bilbo got the ring.
I noticed a continuity problem. Maybe. Now, as of the time of The Hobbit, it was unknown that this magic ring was in fact a Ring of Power, and it was doubly unknown that it was the Ring of Power, the Master Ring that controlled the others.
But the narrator -- who we will learn in LOTR was none of than Bilbo himself, who wrote the book as "There and Back Again" -- says this about Gollum's ring:
"But who knows how Gollum had come by that present [the Ring], ages ago in the old days when such rings were still at large in the world? Perhaps even the Master who ruled them could not have said."
In another passage, the ring is identified as a "ring of power."
I don't know, I always thought there was a distinction between mere magic rings and the Rings of Power created by Sauron. But this suggests that Bilbo knew this was a ring of power created by Sauron.
Now I don't remember when Bilbo wrote the Hobbit. In the movie, he shows Frodo the book in Rivendell, and I guess he wrote it after he left the Shire. I guess he might have added in the part about the ring being a ring of power created by "the Master" after Gandalf appraised him of his research into the ring.
I never noticed this before. I know Tolkien re-wrote this chapter while he was writing LOTR to make the ring important from the start. And also to make Gollum more sinister and evil, and also to remove the part where Gollum actually offers Bilbo the ring as a "present" -- Bilbo had already found it on his own, but Gollum was wiling to give it away, which obviously is not something the rewritten Gollum would ever do.
But I had no memory of the ring being suggested to be The Ring so early in the tale.

Finish the job, Mr. President!
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Tomorrow is March 25th, "Tolkien Reading Day," because March 25th is the day when the Ring is destroyed in the book. I think I'm going to start the Hobbit tomorrow and read all four books this time.
The only bad part of the trilogy are the Frodo/Sam chapters in The Two Towers. They're repetitive, slow, and mostly about the weather and terrain. But most everything else is good. Weirdly, the Frodo-Sam chapters in Return of the King are exciting and action-packed and among the best in the trilogy. (Though the chapters with everyone else in Return of the King get pretty slow again. Mostly people talking about marching towards war, and then marching towards war.)

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