The only thing creepy is someone is willing to pay $100 when this kind of behavior by profs is a dime a dozen.

Political prosyletizing in the class room is not a new phenomena. My college days were in the late 50's and I had a religion prof who had us read J. Edgar Hoover's "Masters of Deceit" and have "Birchers" or members of the "John Birch Society" come in and speak. Have any effect on me? I guess so. While I don't look for commies and other left wing radicals behind every tree or under every bed, I have been a conservative and a Republican ever since. Oh if you are young enough that you don't know what the John Birch Society is, google it. Much to my surprise, it's still out there.

During one of my classes at ASU last semester, our professor informed us that he wasn't there to turn us into Democrats, then proceeded to wonder out loud how a "chimp" get's elected president. "Capitalist appologists" was one of his favorite terms, and he didn't go one single class period without speaking negatively about the war in Iraq.

I hate to think of what he would've said if he were trying to turn us into Democrats!!

not new at all - subject of Buckley's God and Man at Yale, written in 1959 IIRC

Where do I donate?

I don't necessarily agree to recording lectures, but college professors have turned into a new priesthood; converting the masses without accountability. College costs too damn much as it is without having students held captive to the sermonizing of tenured radicals perpetually stuck in 1968.

"Pupils Paid to Pinch Prosyletizing Professors" Is more encompassing and more alliterative. C'mon, Ace, you're phonin' it in, man!

I should add, in fairness, that he/she did also rip on Kennedy a lot (the fat drunk swimmer).

Jeez, people don't go to college to learn course material, they go to college to be taught HOW to think critically. (For example]: I'm an engineer. When was the last time I used an integral professionally? Never. Calcualted a system dynamics problem? Never. Evaluated a spring/mass/damper system? Never. HAd to take classes in all of them.)

I guess the conservative daddys are afraid thier kids' minds are too weak to stand up to a little lefty preaching. Which they should be, if they raised thier kids with blinders on. Point being, critical debate by profs gets people thinking, always a good thing from a lefty point of view, never a good thing from a righty point of view.

All that crap about profs digressing and not doing thier jobs efficiently enough: Strawman. Besides, if the profs were worried about efficiency, they never would have become profs!

Finally, if the UCLA alums don't like it, why don't they vote with thier feet? I thought y'all were for the free market? Send the kiddies to Bob Jones U! No? Why not? Becuz it's a shite university? The real answer is that good university have on staff professors with a variety of views, and that is a good thing for the educational process of kids. But these uber conservatives apparently don't see it that way.

Weird; here I thought the point of a liberal arts education was to learn how to develop opinions. Apparently it's to listen to other people tell you what you already think.

Larry, how is calling Bush a chimp critical debate?

I agree that critical debate should be a part of the learning process in higher education. However, professors should never cross the line from engaging students in debate to belittling them for their personal political views.

The rest of your comments are either incomprehensible (damn engineers and their fancy math-talk) or just odd.

Larry, There's a difference between teaching people how to think and teaching them what to think.

What a foolish idea that professors are engaging in indoctrinating students. Now I need to go and write on my blog about how the facist Bush continues his deceptive war in Iraq in an effort to usher in a new race of half-monkey/half man super soldiers for the purpose of creating a theocratic empire based on oil profits and slashing civil liberties.

JB: If the student didn't agree with that astute comment, he was just being exposed to another person with a different (if strident) opinion. His response should be "Why do you say that?" or "I think that's uncalled for" or " I think he's doing a heckuva job" thus initiating the debate. Again, if the kid is to timid/weak/intellectually cowed to do so, maybe he shouldn't be in college to begin with, or not that college anyway. People u disagree with are a part of life, u need to learn to disagree and make ur case. Like we are doing here.

People u disagree with who are idiots AND say outrageous things are also a part of life, and u need to learn how to handle them, too. What's so hard to understand here? Debate takes many forms, you need to be intellectually nimble.

LOL, dude, some of these profs have been caught giving kids extra credit on their grades for attending protests!

And giving brilliant kids shit grades if they have the temerity to disagree with them politically.

You can't call it diversity if the political slant is monolithic.

You should really do a little research on the subject, it is quite eye-opening.

One of my (very very small) contributions to my alma mater was getting an English Lit. prof formally reprimanded by the department. This woman (whom I will not name) taught a course on semiotics in literature, with The Name of the Rose as the centerpiece (excellent book, by the way!).

The problem was, this woman was a flaming Marxist and avowed CPA member. I sat through three three-hour courses that were little more than communist indoctrination speeches -- every literary device, every symbol, every theme, somehow related to socialist thought. I got into actual shouting matches with her; just mentioning President Reagan was enough to send her into a spittle-flecked rage.

Finally, I had had enough. I was paying for a course on literature, not on Communist ideology, so I complained to the department head. I got the old "you have to be tolerant of different viewpoints" speech until I threatened to file a grievance with the accreditation board. The prof was officially reprimanded, and I was allowed to transfer to another lit class. From then on, every leftist prof on campus (which is to say, most of them) had it in for me in a major way.

The prof in question later moved back to San Francisco (where else?) and, last I heard, is a full-time "activist".

Oh come on, Larry.

Yes, part of college is learning to think critically, but not all of it. But many of these college professors have lost that ability themselves a long time ago. And far too often political nonsense is thrown into topics that inherently apolitical. It's one thing for a political science professor to inject politics into a discussion. It's entirely different for a math professor to do so.

Personally, I don't care much if a professor injects political opinions. I'm used to it. But the problem is, political opinions are never injected to "encourage debate" but to settle it. There's no critical thinking going on, and they're often wasting class time.

Jeez, people don't go to college to learn course material, they go to college to be taught HOW to think critically.

They're supposed to learn both, actually. Perhaps you didn't use everything you learned as an undergraduate, but if you're a practicing engineer, you'd better have learned a healthy amount of it. And given that many colleges have been talking about extending the curriculum to 5 years, since it's becoming difficult to get through the traditional and evolving material in 4, focusing on the classroom material is critical.

And being forced to listen to a monologue concerning the professor's personal political views does not develop critical thinking. As we can tell from the logical fallacies in your comment.

Note that no one is complaining about presentation of these topics in a "Social Issues" class or a political science class. It would be preferable to have a less biased discussion leader, but the material is appropriate to that setting.

Weird; here I thought the point of a liberal arts education was to learn how to develop opinions. Apparently it's to listen to other people tell you what you already think.

Who told you that? Go get your money back.

I am not sure where Larry is coming from but the problem in most public universities is that any viewpoints outside of the liberal elitist viewpoint is derided and the purveyor of such ideas finds themselves ostricized as being "outside the mainstream" or worse. The tide of political thought on college campuses is decidedly liberal and despite all of the nice things we hear about tolerance and open minds, those are hardly ever applied to a conservative thinker.

I'm not even sure I find it creepy. What expectation of privacy covers giving a lecture to a class?

Now, the university may have a qualm about it; you're essentially making public what they're paying the professors to impart only to a few and for very large sums.

Wasn't the problem with McCarthy that he was, like, a Senator? What law shields speech from scrutiny by the press or the public?

peaceful solidarity

Larry,
Are you and Scar the same person?
Sleeping together? Conjoined twins?
I always laugh when two lefties pull exactly the same argument out of their ass at exactly the same moment. BORG!
Oh, and Larry, that part about "good university have on staff professors with a variety of views" is dead on. Problem is that there is no variety in the views of the mindless leftoids who populate faculty in today's universities, (and occasionally hang out here spouting bullshit).
Get back to work Larry, I'm sure there's some important urban engineering that needs doing.

Larry, debating is what is going on here. A proff. going off about his politics to a captive audience of mostly young impressionable kids is unprofessional.

Sorry but I have to go to class. British Lit. Pray for me.

JB

Exactly right, Tarheel.

And it's one thing for a professor to say, "Let's debate affirmative action" and divide the class into two groups who are supposed to argue opposing sides (whether or not they actually agree with that side). It's entirely different for a professor to say, "I support affirmative action and anyone who doesn't is a racist."

I've had professors do both, but too often it's the latter rather than the former.

The real answer is that good university have on staff professors with a variety of views, and that is a good thing for the educational process of kids.

What a load of crap.

I'll grant you that in the hard sciences and math that there might be a "variety of views", but in the humanities, english and various bullshit women's, queer, and black studies, the mindset is fucking monolithic and about as unvaried as a railroad track.

Victor Hanson is a historian and Classicist who has written often on the liberal monoculture so prevalent in American universities these days. One of his books -- Who Killed Homer? -- is very revealing and echoes my own experiences exactly.

The essential problem at most universities is that their "open mindedness" stops where conservatives and conservative thought is concerned. The professors and administrators are overwhelmingly liberal (even in red-state colleges), and are avowedly hostile towards conservatism on campus. It makes a mockery of their so-called "tolerance". Liberal "tolerance" is simply a different kind of tyranny: an anti-male, multi-culti, touchie-feely hippie gulag.

Or at least this is true of the liberal arts departments; thankfully, the hard sciences and engineering departments depend on ability and have thus far managed to stay relevant. But History, Sociology, English, Theater -- lost causes, all of them.

...good university have on staff professors with a variety of views, and that is a good thing for the educational process of kids.

I have a sneaking suspicion that Larry's days on campus were a long ways back.

Political indoctrination was just beginning to be an issue when I went to school back in the Eighties, but these days it's pervasive. The students are well aware that in most classes there is only one acceptable viewpoint on most social or cultural issues, and papers are graded for agreeing with that viewpoint. Factual accuracy or careful analysis are secondary, at best.

As a non-student, I never, ever discuss politics with my colleagues. They discuss politics constantly, and the next time I hear anyone talking from a conservative prespective will be the first. Larry's quite right, though, about the intellectual benefits of hearing different perspectives. Academics never do, and their "discussions" sound a lot like the mindless reiteration of talking points and baseless assertions that you get from most of the leftie trolls on this blog.

Monty, I sense you're holding something back.

Don't keep it all bottled up, man.

Sorry, Larry.
When my History of Art teacher never missed an opportunity to bash (then campaigning) Ronald Reagan during class, it was wrong, pure and simple.

You are correct in that Colleges are there to teach students how to think critically, but that is not accomplished when the professor is quite willing to scrap or fail papers and students that write in disagreement. It happens when they uncritically charge the students with looking objectively at the facts on hand and supporting conclusions drawn by those with well-thought out arguments and reason.

As far as the free market goes, that is much like what is happening here. Evidence of systemic abuse of position is being gathered. If there is not enough evidence gained, there won't be much of an argument to present. Exposure is a free market tool as much as anything else's.

The reverse is true even more so. Why challenge Augusta Nationals' sexist policy? Because that's where the players go. The difference here is this is a taxpayer supported institution. You should be on board with the students trying to speak truth to power.

Lastly, LauraW: does it annoy you to have your posts mis-identified constantly? Thanks for the post.

Don't keep it all bottled up, man.

Who, me? I'm not bitter. At all.

I only claim them if they earn praise. Heh.

I work in a college of education, and a friend of mine, who is a statistics professor, supported Bush in the last election, and wore a Bush '04 button when teaching one of his classes. A student complained that his button was offensive. So it's not just the professors.

This, in a college of education where almost all of the other professors were wearing Kerry campaign buttons. The Bush button was the only offensive one. This is how much the left likes debate.

I only claim them if they earn praise. Heh.

Safe and non-placating. That's good.

Larry,

Let's say you work for a small engineering firm, and one of the senior partners believes that aliens are conducting medical experiments on his cat. He constantly talks about it, even in the middle of planning meetings and also manages to slip it into internal memos. He is so passionate about his belief that it borders on zealousness. You are coming up for partner, something that ultimately could come down to this man's approval. Are you going to "initiate a debate" with this man, or are you going to let things be?

What if the other senior partners also have this view? What if a majority of the engineering firms in you area also have senior partners like this?

It's one thing to be exposed to someone who has a different opinion. It's something completely different when the person espousing those views has a measure of control over your success in life.

2:04 was mine.

Monty: Hard to believe a moderate, thoughtful person like you got someone reprimanded. (Me thinks it's more likely you played a twisted political correctness card and got the authorities worried about a lawsuit for some "percieved" comments, but that's just my opinion). Also, u r suprised that professors (all of them, not just the lefty's) had it in for u after this? Look up "forseeable" in the dictionary.

Rickinstal: What's "urban" engineering? FYI: I work for a for-profit, commercial, non-gov't company. Not sure what u were getting at there.

Utron: Were u implying I'm an aging hippie? Wrong!

Wow, u guys are rabid about this issue. Ah, the Republican Party, stifling ideas different than yours whenever you can Sigh. Oh well, I got one word that'll really spin you up: Tenure ! harharharharharharharhar.

Uhmm...when Conservatives were the norm on campus, they were the ones who encouraged debate and free exchange of ideas.

Who do you think hired the lefties in the first place?

You really, really, need to look into this issue, because you are ignorant.

Oh, wait one: It's wrong for a professor to voice his views in class openly, but it's OK for a school board to try to sneak creationism into the classroom diguised as ID? What, it's OK if you are stealthy enough?

Both are opinions that should have no place in the classroom, right? Did you all stand up and protest then? Show of hands, if you actively voiced opposition to Dover School Board?

And before someone else says it, the Republican judge said this was religiously motivated, so don't give me that "It's a competing theory" crap.

I wrote a final paper for a Critical Theory graduate class (for my Ph.D. in Eng. lit) arguing for the importance of teaching traditional literary canon in public schools. One of my sources was Lynn Chaney's excellent book. I bet my moonbat prof nearly had a stroke reading my paper, but to his credit, he gave me an A-.

Ah, the Republican Party, stifling ideas different than yours whenever you can

Had there been ideas to stifle, we could have gone to work. As it is, all we had were your ridiculous arguments that: 1) course material is irrelevant, you're really in class to learn "critical thinking;" 2) you can learn to think critically by listening to a professor go off on an off-topic rant; and 3) it's all the close-minded conservatives fault for not appreciating the opportunity for exposure to alternate views.

In your world, all the benefits of a college education could be acquired at virtually no expense simply by listening to the rambling street lectures of the unfortunate.

Wow, u guys are rabid about this issue.

We're just appreciating this golden opportunity to learn critical thinking through exposure to an alternate view. Not having much benefit so far, though.

Hey everyone! Larry wants us to know he's a fellow capitalist pig. Now I feel better.

What a topical topic this is.

I went to the first meeting of a class I'm taking in grad school on Human Resourses Management last night and the prof, in discussing emailing assignments and instructions back and forth made no less than 5 references to the NSA snooping on our correspondence. Course being a totally insulated dumbass with P.hd after his name, he kept referring to it as the NAS.

Larry bloviates thusly:

Also, u r suprised that professors (all of them, not just the lefty's) had it in for u after this? Look up "forseeable" in the dictionary.

First: would it kill you to write "you" instead of "u"? It's two more letters, for Christ's sake -- I don't think it'll aggravate any carpal syndrome you may be suffering from. It also makes you sound like a fourteen year old mall-crawler prodding away at her cellphone.

Second: Am I to take it that you approve of a professor waging a vendetta against a student who has different political opinions? Why should I pay some leftist fuckwit to lecture me about communist didactics in a literature class? I don't essentially give a shit what her politics are; I don't want her to waste my time (and hence my money).

Ah, the Republican Party, stifling ideas different than yours whenever you can

Today's liberals: beyond parody.

It's wrong for a professor to voice his views in class openly, but it's OK for a school board to try to sneak creationism into the classroom diguised as ID?

And these are equivalent how? C'mon critical thinker, surely even you can divine the differences between these cases.

geoff:

Yeah, and I like that leftist judo Larry uses too: "I will posit a hypothetical against your established fact and pretend it's the same! En garde!"

Your cause is hopeless, Larry: our conservative kung-fu is too strong.

Larry,

You've got to be kidding me. So we can't oppose left-wing preaching in college classes unless we also oppose the teaching of creationism in elementary school. Apparently logic is another area your university classes did not see fit to cover.

I didn't protest Dover because I don't live in Dover. I don't have kids in the Dover school district. I leave it to the people of Dover to decide for themselves what to teach in their k-12 classes.

However, I have had classes that I paid for with my money where professors have gone on anti-Bush and various other left-wing rants where it wasn't even remotely appropriate. Why should I have to pay to put up with this? Stick to the material.

I don't care if a professor makes it obvious what his or her views are. I don't protest that. Sometimes, it's difficult not to. But what I dislike is wasting large chunks of classtime complaining about Bush or Republicans or their sexual transmitted diseases or whatever happens to be irritating them that day.

These people don't do it to encourage debate, they do it to satisfy their own egos.

|4rry, 7h3 purp053 0f m057 c0||363 c0ur535 15 n07 70 734ch cr171c4| 7h1nk1n6. M057 c0ur535 4r3 70 5p3c1f1c f4c75 r3|473d 70 7h3 c0ur53w0rk.

17 w0u|d b3 4n 1mpr0p3r w4573 0f MY 71m3 4nd m0n3y 70 5p3nd 57471c5 4r6u1n6 0v3r 7h3 c0rr3c7n355 0f 7h3 W4r 0n 73rr0r r47h3r 7h4n c0v3r1n6 4c7u4| c0ur53w0rk.

1 4|50 d1546r33 w17h y0ur b451c pr0p051710n- c0||363 15 N07 7h3 71m3 70 |34rn cr171c4| 7h1nk1n6. 7h47 5k1|| 5h0u|d h4v3 b33n 4qu1r3d 47 7h3 h16h 5ch00| |3v3|. C0||363 15 f0r f1n3 7un1n6 y0ur 5k1||| 5375 1n70 wh47 y0u n33d f0r 4 c4r33r.

4nd f1n4||y y0u'r3 16n0r1n6 7h3 c4535 0f c0n53rv471v3 57ud3n75 b31n6 pun15h3d F0R 7h31r b3|13f5,317h3r 1n 6r4d3 0r 57ud3n7 f335 0r 07h3r m37h0d5. Ch3ck 0u7 317h3r D4v1d H0r0w17z 0r M1k3 4d4m5 f0r 50m3 3x4mp|35.

Are any students at all influenced by any professor these days?

Are any students influenced at all by any professor these days?

It's wrong for a professor to voice his views in class openly, but it's OK for a school board to try to sneak creationism into the classroom diguised as ID?

Tell you what, Larry: I'm feeling magnanimous today. I'll give up all the creationist professors at all the public colleges in the land and you can give up all the far-left socialist nitwits at all the public colleges. Deal? That'd be, what? About a 50,000-1 ratio? 100,000-1?

Step up, Larry! I'm willing to deal!

Or let's just do something simpler: get rid of tenure.

Wow, u guys are rabid about this issue

Gee Larry thanks for noticing. Your understanding of the issue is so far off base it shows a distinct lack of critical analysis.

The teacher/student relationship is NOT an equal one by its very nature. Teachers teach and students learn. Particularly in a university setting where tenured professors see themselves as demi-gods and their positions are unassailable. Disagree with one at your peril and for those interested in pursuing a higher degree, MBA, JD, etc., that peril can be fatal.

I attended a liberal arts college and had a political science professor who was active in the state democratic party (he actually ran for the Senate the following year, losing badly Allah be praised). Exactly how much dissent do you think he encouraged? Nope, you sat there and regurgitated his line or you disagreed and took the grade hit. Sound intellectually stimulating to you? I suppose your so strong minded you would have fought him hammer and tong and suffered the consequences.

As far as conservatives not being able to think critically, please. You really need to get over yourself and your lefty arrogance. Big gov't and bloated bureaucratic welfare redistribution programs and a national defense program based on appeasement do not connote a stimulated intellectual mind but rather a timid and lazy one. The very fact that many of us were able to overcome what is an openly acknowledged liberal bias in colleges and university systems says a lot more about our ability to be intellectually curious and strong in our beliefs than your parroting of the lefty line does.

In case you missed it, UCLA stands for University of California at Los Angeles. That is to say it is a state school and tuition for in state students is relatively low. Bob Jones is a private university and tuition is substantially more. Not all conservatives are rich Larry. Just as you have proved that not all liberals have a clue.

YO Howard, is that Yiddish or somethin? Sanskrit?

Must've learned that in your World Civ course. Dead languages my 455.

No just regular |33+

Since Larry is fightin' to get AIM texting recoginzed as a valid language for discourse, I'm showing him my support by only addressing him in leet

HowardDevore:

Have pity on the rest of us and dispense with the 133t-speak. Gamers and "texters" are going to make the next generation functionally illiterate if we don't watch out; no use in accelerating the apocalypse.

We may be bastards, sir; but we shall be well-spoken bastards.

If you put 58008 in a calculator it spels BOOBS upside DOWN

But I just want Larry the yourbanite to feel comfortable here. Besides, if he doesn't address my valid points, he loses at the internet, and he wouldn't want that.

it's actually worse than has been suggested here, at least in my grad school experience. The problem is with the word "viewpoint," which is totally misleading. For all the deconstructionist/ postmodernist stuff about there being no one, objective, capital-T truth, the VAST majority of humanities professors I've known have regarded their own political opinions as straight-up True (true story: I once listened to a history professor assert something to the effect of, of course all historians are liberal, since they're far better at seeing and evaluating facts and thinking critically). "Dissent" with one of these bozos' political opinions is equivalent, in their minds, to denying that the earth revolves around the sun or that two plus two is four. George W. Bush is an idiot? Republicans are all rich evil bastards? The War on Terror is actually a War for Halliburton (tm)? None of these are "opinions," in the minds of most professors (and grad students) that I know; they're straight-up, capital-T Truths. Debate on such issues is pointless (runs their "thinking") because anyone who thinks differently is obviously a lunatic.

I've been reduced to chugging a bottle of Maalox before going to class, but if I actually want to do something with this PhD I'm laboring to acquire, I have no choice but to toe the party line....

Oh, come on, everybody. Howard is just promoting diversity by challenging the alpohabetocentric hegemony of this blog from the distinct perspective of his differently charactered, non-literonormative |337+5p33k. Let’s give this lad tenure, I say.

Exactly how much dissent do you think he encouraged? Nope, you sat there and regurgitated his line or you disagreed and took the grade hit. Sound intellectually stimulating to you?

Me

I've been reduced to chugging a bottle of Maalox before going to class, but if I actually want to do something with this PhD I'm laboring to acquire, I have no choice but to toe the party line....

Hiding Out

You were saying Larry?

Y'all are out to lunch when it comes to claiming that there are a lot of left-wing professors out there. In my my undergrad experience, I didn't have one professor express any Marxist idealism except in a historical context. In fact, all of them "supported the troops" and tended to be moderate or moderate-conservative in their beliefs, but didn't really express these in class...

Geez, what schools did YOU ALL attend?

JFH -USNA class of '84

Come now, my good fellows. 133t speak is simply the evolution of language, like Ebonics. You can take a college--or high school--course and become fluent without ever having to consort with native speakers. How condescendingly cool. It appeases all guilt for being an Olde English speaker like the dinosaurs on this has-been blog!

Heavius Duticus and groovicus.

/s

KevlarChick:

We two shall sing a threnody when the plainsong of well-written (and well-spoken) English passes away.

Oh, wait one: It's wrong for a professor to voice his views in class openly, but it's OK for a school board to try to sneak creationism into the classroom diguised as ID?

Liberals are always up for squelching debate--this time slamming the door on the debate whether Larry's a fucking idiot.

Y'all are out to lunch when it comes to claiming that there are a lot of left-wing professors out there. In my my undergrad experience, I didn't have one professor express any Marxist idealism except in a historical context.
Posted by JFH at January 18, 2006 03:30 PM M

It depends on your major. Here in Oklahoma (very red state), I majored in English, creative studies, and had several extreme libs and one full-blown Marxist. More recently, I took some business classes and got the opposite.

When my History of Art teacher never missed an opportunity to bash (then campaigning) Ronald Reagan during class, it was wrong, pure and simple.

I had a philosophy teacher take a couple of days from history of ancient Greek philosophy to discuss the evils of cruise missiles and the importance of reducing our nuclear stockpiles.

Ancient. Greek. Philosophy.

And he was one of the more conservative members of the department.

Oops. The anonymous post about the evils of philosophy departments is mine.

Larry-

1) You talk about straw men and then drag creationism into this. You are either suffering from ADD or you are not arguing in good faith. In other words you are either mentally challenged or a shameless hypocrit.

2) You say the purpose of college courses is to learn how to think critically not to learn "course material". What does that mean? College courses are intended to cover any material not previously discussed in high school? If yes you're a lunatic and I'll be happy to prove it (let's us look up a few curriculums together shall we), if not what the hell was that supposed to mean?

3) You accuse others of "stifling" your dissent. Do you know what stifling means? Ok, then you know that stifling would mean some limit was placed on your ability to post and my ability to read your words - care to show me where either has been limited? In the real world I mean i.e. cite facts

4) How can an (employed) engineer be so prone to driving his arguments with generality instead of quantifiable facts?

Why, Monty!

We shall not let it pass away! And you and I will drink to auld lang syne.

Pleasant--and various as the year;
Man, soul, and angel, without peer

-Christopher Smart, 1722..

hey, what up?

Hey Larry-
You said you work for a for-profit-non-govt entity.
And you're an "Urban Engineer".
Sounds like you work for the aclu or naral.

Y'all are out to lunch when it comes to claiming that there are a lot of left-wing professors out there.

I think it also depends on academic department. At the school where I currently work and am currently a grad student, the education department is filled with leftist professors, judging by comments heard inside and outside of classes, the bumper stickers that they place on their car and office doors, the number who are into Marxism, critical theory, and related areas, and the number of Kerry buttons I saw during the past election. It's almost heresy to express any support for Bush around here.

However, in the business department at this same university, there are quite a few Bush supporters among the faculty.

I find a man with a thorough command of English to be absolutely irresistible. So back off, Kevlar. You can have Ace and Dave at GR, but Monty's all mine.

Seriously, I've never had a professor bring up politics, but then all my courses are engineering. Several of my friends in polisci have told me stories about their profs, though. Come to think of it, I did have a major liberal when I took polisci at a community college a couple summers ago, but she was pretty restrained. We could tell how she felt, but she didn't suppress debate or give us bad grades for disagreeing. I respect that.

Of course, I prefer conservative professors that let us make fun of Neville Chamberlain.

Adolfo,

JFH graduated from the United States Naval Academy in 84.

Me, I went to WVU and obtained a BS and an MS in mechanical engineering. I use what I learned in class all the time. I suggest you find out what Larry works on and avoid it.

I had a philosophy professor who said she wanted "open debate and discussion." She claimed she was interested in "critical thinking". We soon learned that if we disagreed with her, you could kiss your grade goodbye.

I went to one of the University of California schools. It was all leftism, all the time.

As a freshman, we had a required course on something or other, I don't remember what. We did a section on affirmative action, bussing, and the like. I considered all the evidence we had to read about, and concluded that I supported affirmative action.

Now, I was young at the time, and this was before the internet was a big deal. So I hadn't been exposed to different viewpoints. It was only later that I realized that I had been given a seriously deficient cherry-picked set of facts and a straw-man version of the opposing side.

One of my favorite courses at Michigan was a class in socialist economics taught by an avowed Marxist. Yes, I do think it helped me learn how to think critically.

Mrs Peel -

Us edumacated ladies would never engage in a catfight over a fine edumacated man. We will both appreciate his qualities together.

You must admit Ace and my Dave at GR both are in fine command of the language, despite whatever professors or bloggers have tried to corrupt them.

" I've been reduced to chugging a bottle of Maalox before going to .... "

Made my day. Thanks. Now you know how liberals have felt EVERY FUCKING DAY FOR THE LAST 6 YEARS. Sucks to have to swallow BS that's forced down ur throat by the man, don't it?

Peace out.

Sucks to have to swallow BS that's forced down ur throat by the man, don't it?

You don't know the half of it spanky.

Kevlar: I agree that Ace and Dave at GR do have that certain je ne sais quoi we discuss.

But you are employing a double standard, since when I joked about the possibility of crushing on one of them, you informed me that you would "pull a Jack Bauer on" me if that were the case. And yet I'm expected to share my appreciation of Monty? Hmph. I think not, my friend.

I agree that Ace and Dave at GR do have that certain je ne sais quoi we discuss.

yeah, but ace is on antibiotics and getting better.

don't know about Dave

Larry,
no offense, buddy, but it's not even remotely the same thing.... unless, of course, your entire future job prospects depend on you (tacitly, if not explicitly) endorsing an ideology you disagree with. The ideological spectrum in grad school, at least in the humanities, runs from left to far left to moonbat, and getting outed as a non-liberal can be quite literally career death (see that story Ace linked a month or so back about a professor on a discussion board going after a conservative poster, even to the extent of calling up his dissertation advisor to complain about him). You might not *like* the current administration's actions (I know I don't like most of them), but your future livelihood isn't dependent upon pretending that you do, is it?

JB: That prof wasn't trying to turn you into Democrats.

He was trying to turn you into Communists.

Larry, you wound me.

The only group of students that lefties tell to 'toughen up' is the conservatives.

I'd like to see them try that shit with the Ethnic clubs or the Lesbian and Trans-gender clubs.

"A teacher called you a beaner and gave you a grade you didn't deserve, Jorge? Well, toughen up! You have to learn how to appreciate diversity of thought."

Nope. Tenure or no tenure, they'd be soon rid of that teacher.

Yo*, Peel!

You want a piece of me*?

Let us instead have a piece of something else. And be goddam proper about it.

You: Sir Monty
Me: My Dave at GR

*Urban English slang

It's totally creepy. Whatever happened to having a little integrity? You have to question the seriousness of someone who can be intimidated into submission by a mark on a transcript.

I'd go into my classes and my professors would talk about "choice" and you just disagree with them. Or they'd take digs at Catholics and I would call them out for being bigots. Big deal. If you are in a class on politics, social history, theology, sociology, psychology, or whatever... and the professor starts a discussion on an idea... you have every right to contribute.

Sometimes you could tell that they didn't agree with my anti-abortion stance, but you just have to bring the best argument possible. Be respectful, but firm. I've never had a teacher retaliate against me for this.

But if you do suspect that a teacher has graded you unfairly, you can talk to the teacher, the department chair, or the dean. No school wants a teacher who will retaliate against students for being who they are and they do take complaints very seriously. Maybe not as serious as they should, but wearing a wire to class is just craven.

One of my friends took a C in a class because she did not agree with a professor's assignment in principle, but because she did well in all her other classes, it didn't hurt her. I think she even explained why she got a C when she applied to graduate school and it helped her get in.

The biggest problem today is that everybody thinks they are victims, even the so-called "self-reliant" folks. You just have to stand up against BS and take what comes to you. In the end, it means more to your classmates and to the teacher and to the school if you can put your values above your transcripts... and everybody knows that. We all benefit from people who are willing to confront things directly.

"...forced down ur throat by the man, don't it?

Peace out."

Ha ha ha. Someone has been studying up to be a hep cat. You have to tell me what hand gesture you did right when you finished typing "Peace out". Kiss the fingers? Double fist pump to the heart?

Larry, 1968 called.

They want their cliche's back.

Hmm, I think we can agree to agree, KC. Now the question is how our gentlemen will take the news, especially when they are informed that gazing at the lovely Miss Scarlett is off limits.

forced down ur throat by the man

No man has ever forced anything down my throat, but hey, if that's your idea of a good time, knock yourself out.

z -

No man has ever had to FORCE anything down your throat.

To paraphrase Frasier Crane:

"Wait, wait, wait. Let me see if I've got this straight. All the lust coursing through this blog tonight, all the hormones virtually riccocheting off the screen, and no one... is chasing me?"

Geez, trolls getting in the way of a perfectly good catfight thread.

especially when they are informed that gazing at the lovely Miss Scarlett is off limits.

bets?

Slublog -

The ease with which you threw that quote out tells me that you've had to use it many times in the past. Many, many times.

Hmm, Slu is kind of cute. And all I know about Monty is that he claims to look like Michael Douglas.

I may have to rethink this.

If you have to deal with a marxist just concede a few points to them to start with. As the year or semester moves along slowly turn into a clone of the teacher. You will get an A and control of all three branches of government.

Sure, bring up painful memories. Just rip the scab RIGHT OFF THE WOUND!

You can't have Monty. He's mine.

Anyone with the command of the English language that he has is just my type.

Well, if I weren't, you know, both hetero and married.

"...both hetero and married."

So if you were hetero and single you would consider him?

Damn right.

Slu is kind of cute.

and he's been a lot safer to be around ever since the voices left him alone.

Honestly, Slublog, when I saw "You can't have Monty. He's mine" in the Recent Comments, I expected to get to this thread and find you were quoting one of his gal pals.

You're a many-faceted creature, no question about it.

You're a many-faceted creature, no question about it.

And just think - soon my spawn...er...child enters this world. Now that's a frightening thought.

For the rest of you, I mean.

Well, crap. This has been fun, but it's time for me to re-enter the real world.

Darn it.

Slubs, from the look of this rapidly deteriorating thread, you only have a few choices. Me, Peel, Larry, or Big Trollbacco.

I will defend your honor. Michael Douglas be damned.

Well, Slublog, I wish you and Mrs. Slublog all the best as parents. In the meantime, I think I'll prepare myself for the experience of sharing this earth with your seed by renting Child's Play 4: Seed of Chuckie.

Somehow, I never got around to seeing that one in the theatre.

Hmm, I think we can agree to agree, KC. Now the question is how our gentlemen will take the news, especially when they are informed that gazing at the lovely Miss Scarlett is off limits.

I was going to make some kind of crack about giving me something else to drool over, Mrs. Peel, but come on: I feel enough of a lecherous libertine as it is. (And the sad thing is...my lechery can only be expressed via poesy or humorous rodomontade; my social life at present is as sere and dry as the Gobi.)

Monty--

DAMN that was hot.

Dandling. Shit!

KevlarChick:

Oh, hell, I got a million of 'em. Want another one? Lubricious. If ever there was a word that just sounded X-rated, that's the one.

Monty -

To quote Slim Pickens

"You talk prettier than a 20 dollar whore!".

I dandled Ace's mom.

(Sorry; just doing my part to keep things classy around here.)

See what develops when you engage in a meaningful discussion on education? And everyone else leaves the thread?

More, Monty. Please.

Be still, steve_in_hb, be still! My mind is a raging torrent, cacading with rivulets of thought, giving rise to fountains of creative alternatives!

I'm with Kevlar...again. I'm starting to notice a pattern.

I'm also noticing a pattern of where she likes to post...hmm...

But seriously, does anyone else really find a command of English to be sexy, or is it just me? (I was kidding about Monty, though. Sorry, dude.)

See, being Isaac Mizrahi has its perks. (Hee hee hee).

BTW, I think it's actually "Gol darnit, Mr. Lamar, you use your tongue purtier than a twenty-dollar whore!"

Hiding Out--courage!

But seriously, does anyone else really find a command of English to be sexy, or is it just me?

Me like, too!

"My mind is a raging torrent, cacading with rivulets of thought, giving rise to fountains of creative alternatives!"

Does this mean you have your hand(s) down your pants?

Well, Ben Jonson had it right:

Poor POET-APE, that would be thought our chief,
    Whose works are e'en the frippery of wit,
From brokage is become so bold a thief,
    As we, the robb'd, leave rage, and pity it.

Sistah Peel, it's the shizzle for mizzle.

That means I like it too.

So are we duelling over him or what, girl?

Sistah Peel, it's the shizzle for mizzle tizzle.

That means I like it too.

So are we dueling over him or what, girl?

Only if Dave at GR is also back in play.

But if you do suspect that a teacher has graded you unfairly, you can talk to the teacher, the department chair, or the dean. No school wants a teacher who will retaliate against students for being who they are and they do take complaints very seriously.

Have you ever heard of the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (FIRE)? They have taken dozens, if not hundreds of cases where legal action was required to force university administrators to comply with students' constitutional rights. You have no clue what you are talking about. See here.

My question is: why can I garner this kind of attention from cute chicks on Ace's blog and not in person down to Wally's Bowl-A-Rama? Now, granted, the ladies there are somewhat more seasoned than Mrs. Peel and KevlarChick, but surely the principle must still hold?

if you think English is hot,

try Brazilian Portuguese.

yowza!

Its because a terrific vocabulary only works to make gals swoon on the internet.

If you actually walked up to kevlargirl in real life and made with the sonnets, you'd be an embarrassing anachronism.

"My question is: why can I garner this kind of attention from cute chicks on Ace's blog and not in person down to Wally's Bowl-A-Rama? Now, granted, the ladies there are somewhat more seasoned than Mrs. Peel and KevlarChick, but surely the principle must still hold?"

Let me put this delicately - have you considered the effects of the introduction of the visual component to the process?

Dude. I bowl. The "principle" holds.

I'm now waiting for some Brazilian Portugese.

Ooops- meant KevlarChick, sorry

steve_in_hb:

I'm ugly, but not elephant-man ugly. Come on! Television and movies have assured me that my grotesque appearance can be compensated for by a rapier wit and humorout banter! Are you saying that Hollywood has been making shit up just to inveigle money out of me?

(Although it would explain why "Get lost, Poindexter!" is the most common response to my verbal sallies....)

humorout

Or humorous, as the unedumacated might say.

I know what an anachronism is, and it's the shizzle too. English majors dig them.

Read through some of FIRE's cases for an eye-opener. You'll see that these concerns go far beyond mere annoyance or waste of class time. Profs/administrators routinely violate students' legal rights for having the audacity to dissent. And appeals frequently fall on deaf ears, unless the student is willing to spend the time, effort, and money to go to court. It's also worth mentioning that these are only the cases where students' were bold enough to take a stand. There are probably thousands more who remain silent. After all, a black mark on one's record could destroy one's career before it even started, and the balance of power is far from being equal. How many are willing to expend all that time and effort, all the while jeopardizing future career prospects and suffering punishment while the case is decided, just to take a stand? The incentive just isn't there, and this is why extreme measures like this are even necessary in the first place. Clean house, or we'll do it for you.

lauraw, I have a good friend who makes me swoon in person with his command of language...of course, it helps that he's tall, handsome, and very intelligent.

Monty, the real question is why I don't get any attention from the fellows at (for instance) the Texas Hall of Fame. But have you considered adding a mysterious past to the mix? You know, kind of like Professor Snape (mmm).

And I am a walking anachronism.

But seriously, does anyone else really find a command of English to be sexy, or is it just me?

Does "command" include a proper appreciation for the merits of brevity?

Cuz I find that damn sexy!

Get lost, Poindexter!

I should add that my usual reply is, "But I am lost, O lovely one! Lost in the limpid pools of your eyes!" But then some guy named Chuck or Chad or Buster or Ty comes along and whisks the lady away, whispering promises of unlimited free Coors tall-boys in her shell-like ear.

The bowling alley scene is just so much less romantic than I had been led to believe it would be.

Elephant man ugly you can do something with. There's a certain brutal allure there. Regular old ugly is unattractive and uninteresting.

I of course say this as member in good standing of the ugly camp.

Who the hell understands women? There was a girl I was chasing for months - wouldn't give me the time of day. I split my head open playing rugby. She's at the game because her friend was dating a teammate. She takes me back to her room, cleans up my head, then sleeps with me. I was bloody and unshowered after playing 3/4 of a game of rugby, but all of a sudden I was attractive.

Monty--you must be uglier than that Gerard Depardieu guy--he's a total ogre and he probably smells French, yet the ladies seem to love him in the movies.

KevlarChick:

Você és talvez a mais belo e intelectual mulher Eu hei jamais ecountered.

Monty -

I think the problem is over complexity. My Mexican buddies make fun of my ineptness with women. They 'll say, " Watch, I'll get you a girl." Then walk up to some hot girl and say "This is my friend, he makes six figures, talk to him." It actually works. They are also effective practitioners of "Back that ass on back here baby".

I would like to go on record as stating that I do not find effeminate men attractive. Not even a little bit.

And yes, that includes Chris Klein.

Michael, yes, brevity is the soul of wit.

Less is more.

And, length is not rewarded. There are other important things besides length. Like being a member of the ugly camp and having a rapier wit. Hot.

And, length is not rewarded.

Oh, don't play innocent with me, you little coquette. We both know that length can be, um, intensely rewarded.

I would like to go on record as stating that I do not find effeminate men attractive.

Well, I got that covered, at least. Although "macho" doesn't really fit either. "Smoldering volcano of testosterone-fueled hot monkey love" approaches it, I suppose -- if you are generous in your application of each of the words in that description. Maybe I was born in the wrong age; I've always felt a sneaking affinity for the Roman emperor Claudius -- he was a complete gimp, he stuttered, and was kind of a runt, and yet turned out to be a pretty good emperor (certainly better than Caligula or Nero).

Monty:

Did you watch the I Claudius series on PBS? As much as I hate PBS, that was great television.

I really need to read up on my Roman emperors. I learned about them mostly through studying art history. Caracalla is the one that creeped me out the most, because I've never seen anyone look more evil.

But Justinian kicks ass because he commissioned the Hagia Sophia.

You want to be the emperor who was described as "that dozing sea-cow" by, I believe, Tacitus.

I guess its better than Otto? who was described as constantly staring at himself in the mirror when he had his armor on.

Michael:

I read the Robert Graves books long ago, and I've always been worried that the series wouldn't stand up as well. I've heard good things about HBO's Rome as well, although I'm sure the historical value of the show is probably zero.

Actually, it was a BBC production that, if memory serves, aired on PBS here.

Michael, was that Brazilian Portugese quote about your length?

Translation? Or should I Google it?

Mrs. Peel, don't worry. There isn't a metrosexual male within miles of this thread. Anymore.

But have you considered adding a mysterious past to the mix?

The Blue Raja: Well, there's The Monty. Mr. Furious: Who? The Blue Raja: The Monty. The Shoveller: Yeah, I've heard of this guy. He's a big crime-fighter up north. Mr. Furious: What's his power? The Blue Raja: Well, he's terribly mysterious. Mr. Furious: That's his power, he's mysterious? The Blue Raja: He's TERRIBLY mysterious, actually.

Kev, I think it's supposed to say "You are the most beautiful and intellectual woman I have ever encountered." (The translator said "never encountered," so I dunno.)

Anyway, I figure the guys must be glad to have some chicks around here so they can proposition us instead of each other for once. I look forward to some variety in the next flame war thread.

I speak some Portuguese with a Brazilian accent. (patting self on back annoyingly)

And Michael, that was a bagunca.

Michael, is it true? If so, I'll never wash this thread again.

My Claudius. Thank God for the Beeb.

Let's try that again without the skanky blockquote.

The Blue Raja: Well, there's The Sphinx.
Mr. Furious: Who?
The Blue Raja: The Sphinx.
The Shoveller: Yeah, I've heard of this guy. He's a big crime-fighter down south.
Mr. Furious: What's his power?
The Blue Raja: Well, he's terribly mysterious.
Mr. Furious: That's his power, he's mysterious?
The Blue Raja: He's TERRIBLY mysterious, actually.

For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

- Isaiah 53:2-3

The translation is:

"You are the most beautiful and intelligent woman I have ever encountered."

If you read the Portuguese, you can pretty much make that out.

Screwed that one up too. I give up. Night all.

Mind you, I don't actually speak the language. I just have this dog-eared phrase book "Have Fun With Rio's Hookers", and I've committed some key sentences to memory.

I didn't think you'd be impressed if I said "No you don't get extra for long time."

"No you don't get extra for long time."

I've never had need for that sentence.

I don't think Monty really gets how mysterious pasts work. Although that is good material if he wants to work himself into a Heathcliff-style mysteriously gloomy mood.

Its amazing, though I don't speak portuguese, I am half portuguese and could read that.

Probably from just listening to it for most of my life.

Actually, Tacitus isn't the most reliable source -- his bitterness and (pre-Republic, anti-Empire) agenda deeply color his judgments. He was something like the James Wolcott of his day, except, you know, not an insignificant clown.

Rome is actually not too inaccurate -- they clearly had some classicists consulting on the thing. Plus John (Conan, Red Dawn) Milius produced the series, and it shows.

BTW, Jordan, if you're still reading this thread, I have contributed to FIRE, it is a worthy cause.

Sorry, prO-Republic. Loose Larry.

Rome is definitely worth seeing, if you haven't already.

What I think Larry the U doesn't see is that academia is sort of like the msm - you know they're biased and you know they lie, by omission as well as commission, but in academia you need the grades so you pretend to play along.

But only the stupidist (the ones who can only go to liberal arts grad schools) take any of it seriously. The rest simply learn that leftists lie and that it's enough to know that the opposite of whatever a leftist advocates is almost certainly the correct answer.

The msm and academia - destroying their own credibility through bias, dishonesty and intolerance.

Mrs. Peel:

I guess I could claim to be a remote male-line descendant of Genghis Khan (kind of like Mr. Prosser in Hitchhiker's Guide). For all I know, it might even be true. I was born and raised in Wyoming -- is that mysterious? I was raised in a Foursquare Gospel church, a sect so small that no one seems to know about it except for me and my nutty great-aunt. I read Godel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid in ninth grade. I left home at sixteen and got an emancipated minor status. I once met Melanie Griffith in a restaurant in L.A. and thought she was the hostess, so I asked her where I should sit. Is any of that stuff mysterious? I guess I just need some pointers on how to make an exquisitely boring middle-class whitebread upbringing mysterious.

someone -

Reliability is a going to be a problem with any of those sources. Between personal axes to grind and their different goal of history (emotional impact vs conveying facts) you end up with a different animal than modern scholars would produce. Not that all works aren't slanted based on the author's ideals.

Monthy - My brush with fame is having Linda Carter ask me where the ladies room is. She was one tall, big woman. Definitely my genetic superior. Unfortunately, she wasn't in the "suit".

I was born and raised in Wyoming -- is that mysterious?

Its a start.

Lets see...your mother found you by the bank of a river...
You had a little silver ring on your finger, and you were swaddled in birchbark.

Actually, the leaving home at sixteen could be mysterious. Your reasons could be shrouded in a veil of oblivion.

As for brushes with fame, Chuck Norris winked at me once.

Michael, as long as your copy is dog-eared, it works for me. And you obviously have extensive experience with hookers. Brazilian hookers, at that. Good man.

And steve in hb, you are consistently one cocky bugger. I shall wilt you with my high school French. Just put me in the smackdown like you do everyone else.

Tais toi!!

Les boudins ici désirent les belles meufs, mais ils ne savent pas les courtiser. Tant pis pour eux.

OK Steve in HB, I'll take your Linda Carter and raise you.

I once had drinks with G. Gordon Liddy.

(He drinks Irish whisky.)

ha!

I live in the same state as some famous people.

Quelques gens dans cet blog sont fou.

Mr Liddy? I was on his radio show once. Beautiful voice on him.

Looks like one left-wing egghead is going to get exposed like a vampire exposed to sunlight

BTW, Jordan, if you're still reading this thread, I have contributed to FIRE, it is a worthy cause.

Good to know!

Desculpe, no faolo Portuguese!

"I live in the same state as some famous people."

And I once lived down the street from Archie Manning and his sons Payton, Cooper and ...... what's his name? Can anybody help?

I think FIRE does a pretty good job at highlighting ideological slant amongst professors, but their legal agenda just muddies the waters. And I think they are right on to fight against some of the "hate speech" restrictions on campus. I went to a college with a small minority population, and it was not uncommon to hear my fellow students use racial slurs (including grafitti left to be seen by minority students), so I don't want to downplay the presence of bigotry on campuses.

And, I totally agree with the idea that certain disciplines lean left, but when you look at the University as a whole, there is a great deal more ideological diversity than FIRE would care to admit. For example, business professors are overwhelmingly pro-business, pro-capitalism. And it would be wrong for the courts or legislature to force the school to hire anti-business business facult. Similarly, the ROTC programs and military science programs are staffed with people who are pro-military, they shouldn't be forced to teach pacifism.

What tends to fuel FIRE's fire is the resentment that some students feel for having to take any classes that are outside of their interests or morality. Most schools require that students take one course on "Diversity" of some sort, and it is these classes that drive some students crazy. They don't want to hear radical points of view. But hearing someone else's crazy ideas don't hurt you. They give you things to think about.

You have to feel sorry for the student who graduates from college and knows nothing about being an outsider, even for 3 hours a week for one measly semester. Education at the college level is about providing a wide range of experiences and teaching people how to cope with a complicated and often irritating world. You just have to learn to cope with people. Just as military training forces soldiers to cope with things like tear gas and interrogation so that they can know what might happen to them in a real combat situation, college should give students experiences that go beyond the inadequate ones provided in High School.

And since college is entirely voluntary, somebody who signs up for this training, shouldn't be encouraged to whine about it when they are faced with something that they aren't already comfortable with. And since there are many, many excellent colleges and universities, both public and private, students CAN make decisions about just what type of education they want to get.

FIRE could do a great job in the way of educating consumers so that they can get the kind of education they want. But, I suspect, they are motivated more by a hidden political agenda than service to students. As their high profile litigation and astroturf activism suggests, they seek to build up their own political capital so that they can put ideological filters onto our educational system at the state and federal levels. In short, they want to wrest local control of colleges and universities away from regents and deans and trustees and place it in the hands of politicans. Which is a recipe for disaster.

For example, business professors are overwhelmingly pro-business, pro-capitalism.

Get out of town!

I'm pro-gravity, myself. But I'm open-minded; I can see how people who want to fly might want to construct a world-view free from gravity's oppressive strictures. It would broaden physics students' minds if we hired some science teachers who don't believe in gravity.

BigTobacco,

You have to be the dumbest person alive. Did you even read the case history of FIRE? They don't sue Universities because a student gets offended at having to take a course that they don't agree with. Let me make this as plain as possible so even you can understand it:

FIRE represents students who have been punished for exercising their First Amendment rights. Read the damn case histories.

What is it about the sound of their own voice that they love so much? 500-word essays in every friggin post. ace, are you paying trolls by the word?

I think...I feel...I agree...most schools...some don't...you just have to...college should...they seek...I suspect blah blah blah

Monty,

Foursquare Gospel Church? Hey, that's Aimee Semple McPherson's old gig!

Cool! (In a fascinated-with-American-religious-movements kinda way.)

Victoria,

Yes indeedy. And many of my bretheren felt that Aimee got a very raw deal from the press, rather than just running a scam on some credulous chumps. It sort of gave me a warm glow to think of a founder of my church burning the rubes in such a way; it confirms my rather sour view of human nature.

What a gal, what a gal.

Hey FIRE isn't a bad organization, it's just that they get used to justify really stupid things. Every time I ever talk to anyone about students Bill of Rights or David Horowitz or any of the other movements to purge academia, people talk about FIRE.

Now I know that this is guilt by association. And I know that FIRE has done some very important work, especially representing professors who have been wrongly accused of sexual harrassment. I just think that there is a world of difference between keeping the college atmosphere open and punishing "commies." And when FIRE drifts into that direction (or gets co-opted), it does much more harm than good.

or any of the other movements to purge academia

... and keeping his record of a fallacy per paragraph intact, BT erects a nonsensical strawman. Have the students' Bill of Rights/David Horowitz *ever* advocating the purging of academia?

and punishing "commies."

Another strawman, constructed in record time!

And when FIRE drifts into that direction (or gets co-opted), it does much more harm than good.

Never having shown that FIRE "drifts" (since the previous argument was based on "guilt by association"), BT manages to presume his conclusion, packing two fallacies into this paragraph.

I'd have gone after the longer comment, but DaveinTX, as usual, dealt with it much more concisely than I would have.

I just think that there is a world of difference between keeping the college atmosphere open and punishing "commies." And when FIRE drifts into that direction (or gets co-opted), it does much more harm than good.

Can you even read, or do you just refuse to? These are the types of cases that FIRE takes:

Due Process
Free Speech
Freedom of Conscience
Religious Liberty

Feel free to provide an actual example of FIRE's "drifting" to back up your baseless assertions. There are dozens of cases there for you to comb through.

Maybe "drift" is the wrong word. Maybe they get "pulled." Whatever it is, usually when I talk to someone about FIRE, they really have some other axe to grind.

It's just like the Minutemen, not a bad organization in principle, but they get used by the worst elements of our society as an excuse to do 2 opposite things: a) Nazis and other racists use the Minutemen to vent their antinativist violent urges, and b) Radical Leftists use the Minutemen to prove that open borders are the only alternative. In the end, they have a polarizing effect. I don't think they should be disbanded, but I do think that it is up to people like you and me to draw lines between what the Minutemen want to accomplish and what they are actually doing.

FIRE is used in the same way by radical right wing idiots who want to a) impose some sort of ideological quota system on schools (Horowitz wants this, but he wouldn't dare call it a "quota.") and b) left wing idiots who want to call ordinary conservatives fascist withhunting McCarthyites. In the end, everybody suffers.

Now, I'm just talking about what happens. This is not me writing that FIRE needs to be abolished. Rather, it is me observing that FIRE is too often misused by people to justify things like taperecording professors and tattling if a student so much as breaks a nail while bubbling in a scantron. I'm inclined to think that we are in agreement that FIRE does good work, so don't go off the deep end here.

I'm just saying that using FIRE's good work to encourage citizens to snitch on each other over unsavory political views isn't American. It belongs in Mao's Cultural Revolution (which, incidentally, is where David Horowitz's sympathies were before his timely, and lucrative conversion from rabid anti-Americanism to whatever it is that he calls himself now). I'm shocked that any conservative would even consider these tactics, especially since the radical Left has used them so ruthlessly in the past. They are just evil, and they don't even really work all that well.

I know that I am being wordy, but concision isn't a luxury when we are talking across each other. If I were some kind of insider here, I could just say something irreverent about strangling hippy teachers or assaulting the enemy of the day and it would be high fives all the way around. But since you already got some kind of chip on your shoulder, it takes a lot more for you to even try to get anything that I am saying.

Which is too bad, because we are probably a lot more alike than different. There are really fundamental core American values that we all need to think about every day, and I bet you know exactly what they are. But we need to talk about these common values a little bit more instead of getting bogged down in the "narcissism of petty differences" and blowing everything all out of proportion.

Maybe "drift" is the wrong word.

No, switching your argument from, "people misuse FIRE's reputation" to "FIRE drifts" was wrong.

I could just say something irreverent about strangling hippy teachers or assaulting the enemy of the day and it would be high fives all the way around.

And that sort of statement is intended to heal any sort of rift?

C'mon, man. Read have you read this blog? All groups work that way. Insiders give each other a free pass and outsiders have to explain themselves.

The other day, someone named Sortelli tore me a new one for talking about something Larry Flynt published about John Bolton, saying that my sources were too shady. Today, we're reading something about Ted Kennedy's secret love child from the National Enquirer and Sortelli is nowhere to be found. If we were on a lefty blog, they'd be attacking the Enquirer and defending Hustler.

It's just the way it goes. It's a simple observation. It's not supposed to be some kind of deep moral judgement on you. Someone cusses me out, calls me a liar, then a bunch of other suckers pile it on, too. It's no big deal. This is just how people act, they turn a blind eye to their own and get really hypersensitive about everybody else. And it takes a while to cut through that and really talk to people.

I'm not going to adapt my views to make people happy, but I will take you seriously. And I realize that a lot of bullshit gets in the way of that. But if you think I popped in here to make trouble for you, that's just not the case.

I like reading this stuff because I like the discussions about things like Google or about how France is willing to nuke people or about life issues (abortion, euthanasia, etc) or whatever is on the page for the day. It's pretty funny, overall (although I am a little creeped out by the deep reverence for other people's phallic objects). And, occasionally, I spot some stuff that I think is just out of line... like taping teachers... and then I add to the discussion.

I don't add much, because I don't know much. But I add what I can, where I can. And, at least I know I'm not going to get a free pass. Free things aren't worth much.

Proves that not all collage students are mindless zombies some are willing to do something about the left-wing administrators

BigTobacco: I called you a liar because you are a liar. What you purported was stated in the link you posted on Bolton was not there. Can you even fucking read?

Simple observation: You like to make shit up.