And here I thought that we unruly, bigoted Americans were so bad because we used to have slaves (so did France, but that's another story), and we had a "Civil War" to get past that, and we're nothing but a bunch of bigots anyway, and (fill in the blank).

All they have and have had for decades and still have is a significant part of their own population that they systematically abuse by refusing to provide equal opportunity for employment, systematically abuse by inhibiting their travel (they can be detained simply for being in the "wrong" neighborhood), and systematically bullying them into social submission, all while reaching out with the hand that's not slapping them down and offering them degrading welfare.

Yeh, we Americans certainly are immoral bastards, aren't we?

Ace, Ace, you're both right!

France has treated its immigrant populations like shit ... *and* the French government is now caving in pathetically.

It's lose-lose!!

France is doing the only thing it can - as a politically correct liberal government.

PC morons can never blame the guilty, only the innocent. So the rioters can never be held accountable - that's why the army won't be sent in - they'd be harming innocents.

Since the rioters are actually victims, the answer is always money.

Chirac did exactly what I expected him to do - because he is liberal.

This is also why France refuses to acknowledge that Islam is the problem - it wouldn't be politically correct. No matter how many churches are burned to chants of "allahu akbar!"

France is over. It's done. More concessions to follow, more money (jizya) and all perfectly conforming to muslim fantasies straight out of the Qur'an.

Whew! Thank goodness. For a moment I thought France was going to change, which would have required me to revise my impressions, perceptions, and beliefs on and about France. But all's as it used to be! Hurrah!

De Villepin knows his history I see. France's plan to fight the rioters basically parallels the plan Charles Martel used to drive off the Moors in 732 AD.

It was the Appeasment of Tours, I believe, where Charles gave the Moorish cavalry lots of money, preferential treatment, and expanded social services, and promised to crack down on discrimination against them.

It was this confrontation which earned Charles the epithet "Martel" which means "little bitch" for the way he bent over and took it in the rear.

In the big scheme of things, expect another couple decades of EU countries figuring out how to manage their need for immigrants.

Britain has its SE Asian population, Germany has the Turks, Spain has North Africans... and they all have a hell of time working it out. (As does Japan.) Germany's guest-worker program looked better in the first years than it does now, with second-generation Turkish-Germans no longer content with 2nd class citizenship... I've spent some time in those countries, and sometimes its hard not to see a lot of useful, dynamic creative energy in those marginalized populations. Books, movies, and all kinds of cultural productions are increasingly coming from the margins in those countries.

But as screwed up as the US is in many ways, a day in NYC always convinces me that this country is WAY WAY ahead of those in allowing immigrants to add to the country's values.

They deserve some credit, I suppose.
I was expecting outright collaboration.

"Jizya" is right. Time to spread that word.

Appeasement can be a tactic - if you use the time to get everything set so that you will be ready to throw down when it flares up again.

Unfortunately, I do not now think the French are going to throw down anything the next time but the towel.

This obviously calls for a two-state solution. France needs to withdraw to its pre-732 borders and end its illegal occupation of Paristine. The French and the Paristinians need to learn to live together in peace.

That's right, Tubino. We have a very welcoming tradition that says "bring 'em all."

The US has certainly been successful with it using an Aristotelian approach to life (individual man is responsible for his own actions and can know the truth) rather than having the state tell you how to live.

The problem we're going to face now is that a very violent religion using the technology of bombs and guns is growing inside the US. Whereas all the other religions promote tolerance, the Islamic faith cannot tolerate anything non-muslim.

We're heading for the same problems. We will not impress a muslim by sounding all sophisticated in our best imitations of egotistical, cosmopolitan news anchors on television. They'll saw our heads off no matter how "moderate" we sound.

Has anyone seen the Italian documentary on Fallujah? I don't mean to steer this thread off-topic, it's just that I'd like to get more info on that story. Apparently Michael Moore, Z-net, Kos and the usual left folks are pushing this story about white phosphorous having been used to burn people in Fallujah.

Anybody got any links or info?

video here....

http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2005/11/08/italian-tv-to-show-us-use-of-phosphurus-in-taking-fallujah/#comments

http://iraqnow.blogspot.com/2005/11/willie-pete.html

Ah, the questions you can answer for yourself with a few simple clicks.

So, back to France.