I just can't get past the starvation angle. We can't starve a convicted murderer or a dog, but a crippled up woman is fair game. What next? We've abandoned all rights to the moral high ground in this country.

Ace:

This attitude is exactly why the media got suckered - again(!) - by a fake memo!

BTW, I know he's not acting like a husband, but he is still her husband, although a husband who is getting the ultimate divorce - court sanction to knock off his wife.

How eerie would it be if she dies on Good Friday? Jeb Bush is playing the role of Pontius Pilot very nicely.

If it wasn't clear before, this case marks the final victory for the judicial branch. The other two branches have about as much power as the average high school student council.

The legislature's only job now is to keep guessing at what the court's will accept as those courts alternately say "warmer" or "colder" until the law is just right. Of course, that's only when the court doesn't just specify the exact text of the law as they demand it (see Massachusetts Supreme Court).

If this is a victory for conservatism or libertarianism, it's escaped me so far.

When asked how Terry looks, Bob Schindler replied something like: "like someone who has been in a concentration camp." (saw newsclip on Foxnews)

I hope whomever is getting political hardons at her impending death get to experience the same humane treatment themselves some day. Jabs at the religious right - what's one life?

I think Ace that you brought up a really interesting point a few times on HQ. Terry does not look attractive in the news clips. She is not living the life that people want to imagine they themselves are living. Human frailties scare your average American. They shun fat people, ugly people, handicapped people.

I think a lot of folks want Terry dead because she reminds them of their own mortality - something you cannot beat no matter how much plastic surgery you get - They would not want to be in her position - to be vulnerable and not have the dignities we take for granted - cleaning ourselves, feeding ourselves, etc. But that's just fine for them, let starvation be their own fate.

We will never know what Terry really wanted and it looks like no one really seems to care enough to really investigate that.

This so sucks.

As for the demonstrator and his sign, his clearest intention is to show that he thinks the President is a puppet of the Christian right. That much seems clear from his drawing. His remark about "payback time" doesn't say who is paying back whom, for what, or by what means. However, in light of the remark, the drawing seems to indicate the demonstrator thinks President Bush must act as a puppet of the Christian right because he is somehow forced to pay them back for having elected him, by doing something that they want him to do. This is one of my interpretations of the text and drawing. The further interpretation that seems possible to me depends on my first interpretation: The demonstrator may be saying that President Bush is suffering a sort of punishment; having been elected by the Christian right, he's now being made to look ridiculous by being forced to treat a position of theirs seriously when in fact he agrees with the opinion that Terri Schiavo is 15 years dead. Again, this is an interpretation of the text and drawing on the sign. Does anyone think he has a better one?

A hundred bent pennies to anyone who can tell me what Liet's point is.

How eerie would it be if she dies on Good Friday?

I had a similar thought this morning.

A hundred bent pennies to anyone who can tell me what Liet's point is.

Rather dependant on a belief that Bush got elected by right-wing Christians?

Ha, Ace, I expected better of you. Even Spewfan can look at that picture and see the hook nose on that Zionist Mossad ringer a mile away.

This is further evidence, for those who will see it, of the Pope rope-a-dope. He and Sharon and Terry are deliberately polarizing this issue to consolidate control of their unlettered Christer/Zionist sheeple. W hasn't consented to their little game and now he will be punished just like he was when the Chicom Mossad cutouts took the WMD's away before he invaded Iraq. Democracy in the Middle East is of course an illusion, one propagated by the Elders of Zion who pull the strings of our Senate and send us to war for their own Elderly Zionist reasons.

The woman is a vegetable, people. Asparagus. Rutabaga. Butternut Squash. Kale. Lemongrass. Bok Choi. Many doctors have proven this. One doctor who examined her in 1990, I think, or maybe 1998 published a report that her blood was 75% chlorophyll. Artichoke. Okra. Radicchio. Spumoni. Courgette. Snow Pea. Her cerebral cortex has liquified into V8 juice. I would link to the report, but I'm too busy and you can fiugre out how to use Google, even though you're all so stupid you believe anything Jerry Falwell says. Plus it also has this one part that says Terri Schiavo often sits up and screams at the nurses "For the love of God, deliver me from this horrible execution I have been consigned to by my monstrous husband! I want to live!"

That part would just confuse you.

bleep - derford:

If Terry's cerebrum is full of v8 juice, I'd say yours appears to be full of prune juice and is having a laxative effect on your discourse.

Huh, first post failed thanks to containing a search engine word - hmm, don't remember putting that in. Anyway, to sum up:

PSFlanagan - I think you're right, though I wouldn't call it an American condition, more like a universal one. In a lot of countries, crippled children are still institutionalized at birth, regardless of what their mental capacity may be. And while I can't blame anyone for having a visceral reaction at the sight of someone who has a severe handicap, I can blame them for revelling in that revulsion instead of trying to overcome it, which is what civilized people do. Those people holding the signs are revelling instead of being ashamed of their own dislike of the weak. They do look young, I will say - perhaps in ten or twenty years, or perhaps fifty years from now when their own heirs start nudging them "Dad, you wouldn't want to live like this REALLY," they'll remember and be ashamed.

Hats off to you, pseudarford. Excellent satire!

I hope everone has read Rachel Lucas' post on this.

I can add nothing more.

Jeb Bush disgusts me.

If Clinton was the governor of Florida, and he wanted Terri alive, he would have already convicted or removed Greer, based on damning information exposing corruption or conflicts of interest, dug up by private detectives working around the clock.

If Clinton wanted a guardian report done, he would have hired someone who could guarantee him, up-front, a gold-plated, humiliating assassination of both Michael Schiavo's and George Felos' entire life histories.

Jeb Bush obviously doesn't know much about winning the tough political battles.

Well, ef me, read the rest of Rachels posts - funny how her stark brutality makes the most sense out of anything I've read yet.

http://www.blueeyedinfidel.com/

Um, psflanagan? Might wanna check your humor-meter. Pseudarford is satirizing Cedarford.

Thanks Placid! Looks like I forgot to turn the humor meter back on!

Apologies Mr. Pseudarford! It appears I am the one turning vegetable even as we post ...

(sshhhhhhh don't tell my husband)

I can guarantee you this - it would take a platoon of Marines to separate me from that shitmonger in that picture. I'd throttle him for being the carrion-fiend that he is. That is just vile, and irreconcilable with a normal person's conscience at any given point.

I'm inclined to agree with the first comment of this thread - I seriously don't "get" the entire starvation angle. We possess much more humane standards for everyone and everything else, but Terri Schiavo is an exception? Why? I'm not advocating killing her by lethal injection, make no mistake, but that is a far more humane option than denying food or water to a person.

I maintain this one thing: if Terri's parents believe she can get better, and want to take over her care, how is this not a slam-dunk "OK, I'll turn guardianship over to you" matter? I don't get why Michael Schiavo is hanging on to this matter when it is totally clear that he has moved on in his life. Does he really think he is doing Terri a favor by fighting in court to have her starved to death?

I strongly doubt it.

He's just a sicko with a sign. For me, I humbly accede to the 19 judges who examined the medical evidence. Seeing a 5 second video loop doesn't make me a neurologist. To some people, that means I'm slavering for Terri's death, because the right wing blogosphere has morphed into the Angry Left on this.

As a libertarian, I'll never believe Taranto or another pro-lifer who talks about states rights, because we've seen that's merely a put-up job to give a veneer of constitutionality to their cause. And since Taranto et al believe any abortion, whether 10 weeks or 8 months, is murder, I have to conclude that their 180 on Schiavo - Yes, it's about states rights BUT - will always trump whatever constitutional principle they're paying lip service too, & they'll use ANY means to the end they desire, however hypocritical.

The only person who could be enjoying this is a certain senator from New York, whose road to the White House will be paved by the Religious Right

jeff- WTF? That makes no sense at all.

Here's a fun game to play:

Let's suppose, just out of curiousity, that you lost the use of your voice, your arms and your legs, and had no way of communicating except doing something like this:

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/ccb/videos/Terri_Big_Eyes.rm

Does that mean you would be a vegetable?

I mean, let's face it: The video shows Terri being asked a question, Terri understanding the question and Terri giving the correct answer to the question, by operating the appropriate part of her body.

Hell, half the 1 year olds in this country can't even do that much.

So, who do we kill? Or should I say, when do we stop killing?

Because everyone knows, you can pay a doctor to say damn near anything, so that won't be a problem.

And, as far as whether or not someone "wanted to die", who HASN'T sat on a couch next to someone, ten or fifteen years ago, and said something like, "Dude, I wouldn't want to live like THAT..."?

So, the way I figure it, we've got just about everything in place to kill about twenty or thirty million Americans, right there.

I would be willing to let her go if they did an MRI of her brain, and it proved PVS.
Scientific tests haven't been done, and several experts say she should be repreived. Its too bad she didn't kill a police officer or murder a child, she would probably not be so close to death.

Slightly on-topic:

Found some interesting reading material while looking for abortion-to-euthanasia slippery slope arguments contemporary to the Roe v. Wade case.

It's from 1996, but I hope you enjoy it anyway.

One more thing, let me submit this idea.

Terri's case is a perfect set-up for full-blown active euthanasia. Here we are, upset, ranting and raving about how cruel it is for this woman to be starved and dehydrated to death.

The death lobby's solution? Make it easy on the poor veggies. Shoot 'em up with the drug made by Hoescht AG already used for animal euthanasia, and already patented for use on humans. That's right, a German company has a mass-produced drug ready to go for this very application.

So, once we vent our rage about the cruel death Terri suffered, you can bet the bank that push polls will come out showing that it's not death itself that's the problem, it's the method. At which point the deathmongers will come riding up on their white steeds and rescue us from our Lebensunwerten lebens.

They took four minutes out of a four hour video. There is no dispute here. She is a vegetable.

Brain scans indicate that her cerebral cortex ceased functioning -- probably just after she experienced cardiac arrest in 1990. Ms. Schiavo's CAT scan shows massive shrinking of the brain, and her EEG is flat. Physicians confirm that there is no electrical activity coming from her brain. While the family video repeatedly shown on television suggests otherwise, her non-functioning cortex precludes cognition, including any ability to interact or communicate with people or show any signs of awareness. Dozens of experts over the years who have examined Ms. Schiavo agree that there is no hope of her recovering -- even though her body, face and eyes (if she is given food and hydration) might continue to move for decades to come.

http://www.techcentralstation.com/032405I.html

She has ZERO chance of recovery. Florida law states that the decision to remove food and water can be made by doctors and the primary caregiver. Like it or not - that's her husband. This is their choice, not yours.

This is not murder. This is letting her die. There is a difference. 50 years ago, you wouldn't even have this situation, as there is no way she would have lived 15 days, let alone 15 years.

Hey fuck it, let's just starve her to death.

Downtown - you've missed the point.

DL,

A very quick Google search will tell you that Elizabeth Whelan, the sole author of the article you linked, holds the degree of Sc.D., MPH, which is basically the same as a PhD in Public Health.

She's critical of Dr. Cheshire because he's not a "renowned" neurologist, but she's not a neurologist at all.

Want to buy a bridge?

Downtown Lad- even if all you say is true, what is the justification for a court order against anybody even trying to spoon feed or put an ice chip in this woman's mouth? That is killing somebody.

I am the mother of a braindamaged child, and you know what? She doesn't respond consistantly or 100 percent of the time, either. That's kind of par for the course with brain damage. Sometimes you can make your muscles do what they're told, and sometimes you can't. In some cases, there is never an ability to make the muscles do as they are told, not even facial muscles- but that doesn't mean there is nothing human there. What would be so horrible about doing an MRI on Terri and letting her have some therapy? What is so horrifying to Michael and the judge about giving the woman a sip of water? If she choked and died, it would at least be quicker and somebody would have been trying to HELP her.

Let's go back to my brain damaged daughter. She doesn't speak, can only sign about 20 words, doesn't care for herself, but she loves us and we love her. And she has ZERO hope of recovery, too- she will always be like this, and she will nver get any better than she is now. So according to your reasoning, if one day we decide that she wouldn't really want to live like this if she were as smart as you and that her life is a burden, we can just stop giving her food and water, and that won't be murder. It will be letting her die.
I look at Terri on those videos (it doesn't matter if that is five minutes out of hours- if for five minutes of the day she is responsive, than for five minutes she's responsive) and I look at my daughter, and then I read your comments which are utterly divorced from reality, and I remember a phrase from Euclid.
You say of withholding food and water from an otherwise physically healthy woman with a normal lifespan "This is not murder. This is letting her die."
Which, as Euclid would say, is absurd. And disgusting.

There's a huge difference between brain-damaged and having a flat EEG. Your child has brain waves. Terri Schiavo has none. From what I have read, based on her CAT scan results, it is not even worth having an MRI, because they know what they would find (based on the CAT scan). Every doctor who has examined her has come to the same conclusion.

People in Terri's condition have food and water withheld from them all the time. But you don't hear about it. The only reason you are hearing about this is because her parents are making a stink.

But guess what. Her parents are not Terri's caregiver. Her husband is. Isn't marriage supposed to be sacrosanct? Her husband, with the doctors support want to remove the feeding tube. Note that this could not happen without the doctor's approval.

This is the decision for the husband and the doctor. Nobody else. Not you. Not me. Not Terri's parents.

Sorry, but that is the way it is.

If it was up to me, honestly, I don't know what I'd do. I think I'd err on the side of life. But they've been erring for 15 years. That's a long time.

She's a vegetatble. Flat EEG. Flat. There is no there there anymore.

DL;

Several posts back you went to some length on the issue of banning of homosexual marriages. I think your point was 'the government has no right to micromanage my life'.

Don't you think that you are being a little hypocritical in this case? Where the governent, through the judiciary, has basically banned this women from consuming any food or water, from any source?

Does that sound like micromanagement to you?

Are you really concerned about government micromanagement of life, or is just purely a canard that sounds good, even though its technically incorrect in the case of gay marriage.

Whats with the 'sanctity of marriage' thing that keeps coming up in regards to this case?

I've never heard of any 'right' gained by marriage that allows you to kill off your spouse by either action or inaction.

This is a red herring. There are various benefits to marriage, but killing your spouse is not one of them.

And, hello?, he has a common law wife/family already.

Talk about not seeing the forest for the trees.

mesmero beat me to the punch. Sanctity of marriage my ass. Either you're a good spouse or you aren't. Shacking up with another woman and your kids doesn't make you a good spouse.

And like I said before, starving anybody to death is just plain wrong and it doesn't matter what angle you look at it from. What are we, the Third Reich?

Marriage is supposed to be so sacrosanct that husbands can kill their wives with impunity? Since when (outside of Islam, I mean)?

Every doctor who has examined her has not come to the same conclusion. Not even close.

Vegetable? No 'there' there? Nonsense, but, again, "even if all you say is true, what is the justification for a court order against anybody even trying to spoon feed or put an ice chip in this woman's mouth? That is killing somebody."

"Either you're a good spouse or you aren't."

You want the government deciding who's a good spouse now, too? Tell me, should they require divorce when they deem one spouse to be "bad"?

The government requires nothing of married couples except that they stay married.

Besides, it apparently has escaped you--and lord knows, most others here--that the judge and the GALs knew that he was in a relationship, and he was still deemed to be an exemplary guardian.

"Due process" doesn't mean you get the outcome you want.

"I've never heard of any 'right' gained by marriage that allows you to kill off your spouse by either action or inaction."

Yes, but as has been made abundantly clear by your posts, you don't know very much. The laws in most states give people the right to "kill off" their spouse in these circumstances. It happens every day, with or without your permission--or awareness.

DH, your daughter's case isn't even remotely analogous to Terri Schiavo. Terri Schiavo doesn't "occasionally rsepond". She's not responding. But go ahead and continue to think that three GALs would cheerfully ignore her occasional responsiveness in their eagerness to declare her in a persistent vegetative state because clearly, it makes you feel better.

Cal,

Besides, it apparently has escaped you--and lord knows, most others here--that the judge and the GALs knew that he was in a relationship, and he was still deemed to be an exemplary guardian.

But go ahead and continue to think that three GALs

Your obsession with the GAL report shows your ignorance of probate law.

Probate judges are notorious for being hacks that couldn't cut it in criminal courtrooms or private practice.

Can you name a probate juge of any prominence or prestige? No, because they are essentially the "trailer trash" of the court system.

They rule over their little kingdoms with little to no oversight. This is who appoints your sainted, impartial Guardian ad Litems.

But then I know you'll have trouble accepting anything I say since my name isn't Jay Wolfson or George Greer.

Terri Schiavo doesn't "occasionally rsepond". She's not responding

Is your neurology degreee online some place? If so, please provide a link so us here stupid people can gawk at it.

Well, posted by ____________!

It would be swell if you would bother to identify yourself before demanding others supply you links.

Before you declare others ignorance of law or give one shit about probate being the legal trash of the legal system when in fact they can be a lifeline to a family reconstructing themselves after a shattering event.

But you came and went as an anonymous sniper....or a sniveling little cunt....

Next time, do the courtesy of at least signing your post....

Cal, you dumbshit.

Look at my 9:39 post. Or, if that requires too much effort, just follow this link:

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/ccb/videos/Terri_Big_Eyes.rm

You want response? You got it. Terri not only HEARS the question, but she UNDERSTANDS it and PERFORMS the correct response.

That's three for three.

(As opposed to idiots like you, Dowtown Lad, Dickie and Cedarford, who have shown on many occasions that they are not capable of complex mental functions of a similar nature.)

Since you flunked the test, do you mind terribly if we go ahead and remove your access to food and water for a couple of weeks or so?

Oh, and don't worry, all the leading experts are now telling us that starvation and dehydration are actually quite painless.

DL, needs his Meds today

I have to really wonder at people who revel in yelling "She's a vegetable" and gleefully pronounce that she should die. Perhaps her existence as a damaged human being is a threat to these folks own sperm count?

I am more likely to take seriously, a respectful measured argument. She is a human being. Have some respect.

I'm a conservative and a Catholic, and I can't understand why everybody ignores the very real possibility that Terri would in fact want to die in this situation? Now if some liberals view this as payback to Bush and religious conservatives, I say stone them to death, the f-ing monsters. But that has nothing to do with the debate related to Terri's wishes. Her EEG has been flat for 15 years, indicating no higher brain function. The Terri that her parents and husband knew died tragically, 15 years ago. You may not like her husband, he may be a jerk, but there's more evidence that she would want to do than that she would want to live.

So Terri is a vegetable who is unaware of pain or even her own existence and who should die of thirst to end the torture of the existence she's not aware of.

And Terri's parents are spending all of their money to get their hands on a million dollar insurance settlement that Michael Schiavo says there's nothing left of.

Am I missing something?

Where are these EEGs all of you from the Einsatzgruppen keep talking about?

We've been able to actually examine the CT scan of Terri's brain that Felos kept waving around, but where are the "flatline" EEGs?

Stop making shit up.

Oops, here's the link I screwed up in my last post.

If Terri were actually comatose and completely brain dead, and there was a baby growing inside her that was threatening her life, these same assholes would be fighting to save her.

"I'm a conservative and a Catholic, and I can't understand why everybody ignores the very real possibility that Terri would in fact want to die in this situation?"

Well, SteveL, here's an idea...

Let's ask her! I mean, we already know she has the ability hear, understand and respond, don't we?

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/ccb/videos/Terri_Big_Eyes.rm

Dammit, that was me. Something's up with the name thingie. Let's pull its tube.

If I was braindead, I would be a republican

If you had *any* brain you wouldn't be a democrat

I wouldn't want to live with a socialist's brain, but that doesn't mean I want to be killed should it happen.