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Food Thread: Artificial Food Is The End Of The World! | Main | Sunday Overnight Open Thread
July 30, 2023

Gun Thread: Very Nearly The End of July Edition!

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Howdy, Y'all! Welcome to the wondrously fabulous Gun Thread! As always, I want to thank all of our regulars for being here week in and week out, and also offer a bigly Gun Thread welcome to any newcomers who may be joining us tonight. Howdy and thank you for stopping by! I hope you find our wacky conversation on the subject of guns 'n shooting both enjoyable and informative. You are always welcome to lurk in the shadows of shame, but I'd like to invite you to jump into the conversation, say howdy, and tell us what kind of shooting you like to do!

How in the ever-loving hell did it get to be very nearly the end of July? I'd love to tell you I spent the week in a frenzy of vigorous organic tree farming, but the heatwave + humidity = no farming for Weasel. I guess sooner or later we all have to realize we cannot still do the same things we did when we were 20 years old, and frankly the idea of even just sitting outside when it feels like 108 degrees is no longer my idea of a good time. When it's like that simply not dying is a challenge, much less trying to do actual chores 'n shit.

With that, step into the dojo and let's get to the gun stuff below, shall we?


Oregon and Texas Moron Meet-Ups

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For the last few weeks, I have meant to point out the two upcoming MoMes; one in Oregon on August 19th, and the other in Texas on October 20-21, and each week I have forgotten to do it. If you're anywhere near Salem, OR contact Kindltot and if you're in Texas contact Ben Had for details. The dates and email links are also helpfully included on the main page, left sidebar, so you really have no excuse!

Seriously, people. These gatherings are a really good time, and I know of no one who regrets having attended one. Don't be a dork - get yourself to a MoMe!


Guns of the Horde
Holy Atomic Shitballs! When Ed L says he's going to send in something on the Winchester Model 12, he really sends in something on the Winchester Model 12! I mean, with a review like this it's damn near a Model 13!

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The Winchester Model 12 shotgun made its first appearance in military service in WWI when the War Department purchased approximately 700 examples in the riot gun configuration. When the war ended, US Army Ordinance noted that the Model 12 had the qualities needed for a front-line combat weapon should war break out again. That day duly came on December 7, 1941. Beginning in April 1942, Winchester began delivering the first of nearly 70,000 Model 12 shotguns in a variety of configurations. Some 7,600 of the total were chambered in 16 gauge. These weapons would have been used for training or security missions in the mainland US, such as factory guards or USCG beach patrols on the coasts. The 12-gauge weapons came in three varieties: trench, riot, and training. The training guns had 28-inch barrels and used a variety of chokes. The trench and riot guns had 20-inch barrels and improved cylinder chokes. A "U.S." marking and Army Ordinance "flaming bomb" were stamped below the ejection port. Shown here are examples of a trench gun and riot gun.

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The riot and training guns came first. These were little more than what Winchester already had on hand for the commercial market, hastily modified when necessary (longer barrels cut down to the 20-inch length for riot guns). The need to secure war production factories springing up all across the nation and to stand up aerial gunnery programs in all branches of the armed forces meant that there was a ready market for these weapons. All riot guns had improved cylinder chokes and 20-inch barrels. A black plastic buttplate with the Winchester logo came as standard. A rare few were made with sling swivels.

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Note how the Model 12's feed gate is used to hold 12-gauge shells in the magazine tube. The "W.B." in the Army inspector's acceptance stamp on the riot gun's stock are the initials of Colonel Waldemar Broberg, the chief of the Ordinance District containing the Winchester factory. Since Colonel Broberg's tenure ended in June 1942, this riot gun was certainly produced and accepted no later than June or early July 1942.

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The need to manufacture handguards, bayonet lugs, and sling swivels first meant Model 12 trench gun production lagged that of the riot and training guns. The first trench guns came off the production lines in September 1942. All Model 12 trench guns carried the acceptance initials "G.H.D." on the stock for Colonel (later Brigadier General) Guy Humphrey Drewry, Colonel Broberg's successor as chief of the Ordinance District for Winchester.

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The Model 12 trench gun uses the same M1917 sword bayonet used on the "Enfield" M1917 rifle and Winchester Model 97 trench gun since large quantities of this surplus weapon still existed from WWI. The trench gun's bead sight is mounted directly on the handguard above the bayonet lug. The Model 12 trench gun handguard uses the four-row hole pattern seen on later production WWII Model 97 trench guns. The USMC made the Model 12 trench gun a legend in its island-hopping campaign across the Pacific. The USMC also made extensive use of the Model 12 in both Korea and Vietnam until Remington 870s, Mossberg 500s and 590s replaced worn out Model 12s by the late 1970s. Model 12s in the Army National Guard and Army Reserve soldiered on into the late 1990s, with some seeing service as late as Operation Desert Storm in 1991. By this late date, Model 12s served mostly as rear area security and POW guard weapons. Because most post-WWII US military shotguns stayed in use until they were completely worn out, few military Model 12s ended up on the surplus market. Today, Model 12s, especially the trench gun variant, are highly desirable collectors' items. Interestingly, although the riot gun configuration is rarer than the trench gun, the riot gun does not command as high a price as the trench gun in the collectible marketplace.

Very nice, Ed L! Very, very nice, indeed! Thank you!


Next up, our pal dagget scores a bigly pile of reloading gear!

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I've been thinking about taking up reloading for a while, and your articles early this year got me thinking some more about it, but the start-up costs seemed steep. I stopped into an estate sale (fancy name for "I have to sell my dad's house and there's all this crap in the garage" sale) to find a small pile of reloading gear. Picked up everything in the photo for a very nice package price and am looking to get it set up soon.

Most of it matches stuff on your list, so I think I understand it. The Jim Dandy Pistol powder measure, and the five cartridges that go with it, are unknown to me, but the google machine knows all. I was fortunate that he included dies which match ammo I use (.357, .223 and 30-06).

Congratulations, dagget! Get a good reloading manual and study before you start. I hope you find reloading as fun and interesting as I and so many others do.


Department of Pretty Cool


Up Your Game
Be an instant badass! No idea why these guys train so much if all you have to do is watch a 12-minute video.


Boating Safety
It's not going to save your stuff, but at least you'll be back in the boat.


Musical Interlude
Here is Cream at RAH in 2005 with Born Under A Bad Sign.


Gun Basics 101
No new video from the She Equips Herself gal, so here is one on summer concealed carry.


Armed Attorneys

Taking a break this week from the advice not to floss your teeth or tie your left shoelace because it can be used agin' you in court, here are the Armed Attorneys discussing a recent Missouri case. Shooting through doors?


Cigar of the Week

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This week our pal rhomboid scores again with this excellent review of the Rocky Patel Catch 22 Connecticut.

Rocky Patel has produced a tremendous catalogue of cigars over the years and has a line and variation for every taste. One of his more affordable lines is Catch-22, which comes in both a habano and Connecticut wrapper. The Catch-22 Connecticut is a mild-medium cigar yet has plenty of flavor - the combination I find in several of my current favorites. It has a golden-brown Ecuadoran Connecticut wrapper, and undisclosed binder and filler (yes, this is a thing with some sticks, from a variety of brands), and is made in Honduras. Light in the hand and looks to have excellent construction - the even burn line confirming this first impression. Easy draw, ample smoke. Flavor - an overall slight sweetness, and persistent notes of nuts and cedar. A good choice when you're looking for lighter body but plenty of flavor, and available online for around $5 and up.

Excellent as always, rhomboid! Thank you!


Here are some different online cigar vendors. You will find they not only carry different brands and different lines from those brands, but also varying selections of vitolas (sizes/shapes) of given lines. It's good to have options, especially if you're looking for a specific cigar.
Bobalu Cigar Company

A note about sources. The brick & mortar/online divide exists with cigars, as with guns, and most consumer products, with respect to price. As with guns - since both are "persecuted industries", basically - I make a conscious effort to source at least some of my cigars from my local store(s). It's a small thing, but the brick & mortar segment for both guns and tobacco are precious, and worth supporting where you can. And if you're lucky enough to have a good cigar store/lounge available, they're often a good social event with many dangerous people of the sort who own scary gunz, or read smart military blogs like this one. -rhomboid

Anyone have others to include? Perhaps a small local roller who makes a cigar you like? Send me your recommendation and a link to the site!


Ammo Link-O-Rama
I'm really very seriously not kidding around anymore. Buy Ammo
AmmoSeek - online ammo search tool
GunBot - online ammo search tool
SG Ammo
Palmetto State Armory
Georgia Arms
Target Sports USA
Bud's Gun Shop
American Elite Ammo NEW!

***Mail Bag***

This week's mailbag entry is from our pal WTM. Man, no kidding!

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Please note the new and improved protonmail account gunthread at protonmail dot com. An informal Gun Thread archive can be found HERE. Future expansion plans are in the works for the site Weasel Gun Thread. If you have a question you would like to ask Gun Thread Staff offline, just send us a note and we'll do our best to answer. If you care to share the story of your favorite firearm, send a picture with your nic and tell us what you sadly lost in the tragic canoe accident. If you would like to remain completely anonymous, just say so. Lurkers are always welcome!

That's it for this week - have you been to the range?

digg this
posted by Weasel at 07:00 PM

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