Gun Thread: WWYD - Part Two Edition!

Howdy, Ya'll! Welcome to the wonderously fabulous Gun Thread! For our regulars, I want to thank you for being here week in and week out, and for any newcomers who may be joining us tonight, I want to give a big howdy and thank you for stopping by! I hope you find our wacky banter on the subject of guns 'n shooting both enjoyable and informative. You are always welcome to lurk in the shadows of shame, but I'd like to invite you to jump into the conversation, say howdy, and tell us what kind of shooting you like to do!

Preparations for NoVaMoMe 2021 are now at fever-pitch. Panic mode starts Wednesday with the traditional bluebell and Weasel MoMe Panic Mode Kickoff Breakfast. Currently the weather forecast for the event is partly cloudy with a high of 90 degrees. Pretty much perfect weather for MoMe'n! I hope anyone who can join us for an afternoon of visiting, fun and frivolity has registered. I probably sound like a broken record, but these get-togethers are fun, and if you enjoy AoSHQ and the comments section, you are going to love attending a MoMe.

With that, let's get to the gun stuff below, shall we?

Last week we started a conversation on how to react after being involved in a hypothetical self-defense shooting. Here is the setup:

Imagine you go to the store to pick up a couple of items and walk in to a robbery in progress. You're armed, and a gunman turns towards you holding a weapon. You shoot and the bad guy goes down. It all happens in an instant and you're standing there with your ears ringing and your smoking weapon in hand.

What are the first things you would do immediately? What would you say or do after the police arrive?

In last week's thread, I linked to the book You Have the Right to Remain Innocent by James Duane, a law professor. In a nutshell. Mr. Duane advises you to be polite and keep your mouth shut until you talk to a lawyer. Mr. Duane also has a lecture video which covers many of the points made in the book.

I suggested you give it a look, so we can discuss how it applies to our hypothetical situation tonight. Did you do this? Did anyone download the free Kindle edition of the short book or watch the 30 minute video? No? Well then you get an F in Gun Thread homework. Please be better.

We had a lot of very good comments last week. Our pal whig made a number of excellent points on legal defense strategy and theory, and the one addressing the WWYD immediately question was:

...Massad argues as do a few of the lawyer-firearm trainer types like Marty Hayes in WA, that to preserve evidence and witnesses, that you more or less have to admit to shooting the assailant (or brandishing if you do not shoot), that the assailant was either violently assaulting you or in the process of doing so thus committing a crime, and you were trying to prevent serious bodily injury or death to yourself by those actions, and then point out the witnesses and the forensic evidence supporting your claim. Then you clam up after doing so. The justification defense is that you did a normally illegal act and but you are willing to admit to committing a potentially illegal act so to avoid being violently assaulted. He argues that a good guy admits to what they did because they believe themselves to be justified aka mantle of innocence. Ayoob then explains that key thing is once you provide the police with pointing out critical evidence and witnesses at the scene, then you decline to talk further until you consult an attorney. Posted by: whig at July 11, 2021 07:21 PM (pO7gM)

Next, our pal TJ gives us the benefit of some very relevant personal experience.

What would you do? I have been a defense attorney, a prosecutor, a detective investigating homicide shootings and I have been in a shooting myself in which I killed one person. Assuming you did it in self defense: Understand that in most cases you do want to get your version of events out early. However, the several hours after such an event is not the best time to give it for a variety of reasons, mostly related to the way memory and systemic physical reactions to stress tend to affect perception, recall and ability to talk clearly and intelligently. In such a situation: "I plead the fifth" is not the best strategy. That strategy is for criminals, and lazy lawyers. Most homicide investigators have let self defense shooters walk out and go home more than once. This is a lot easier to justify if there is a passable version of "I was in fear for my life and this is why" on the record. You want to get that out there, but you don't really want to just wing it or let a sit down in an interview room be the first time you have run through it. You need to run it by a lawyer first...like right now. "I was in fear for my life, and I will give a statement after talking to my lawyer " Posted by: TJ at July 12, 2021 12:56 AM (Kw4QE)

Lastly our pal somedood finds the nugget!

You have to know what you're going to do after the shooting BEFORE you strap on a piece... Posted by: somedood at July 11, 2021 08:12 PM (qVRSW)

This is exactly why I posted the question in the first place. You should have considered the matter in advance, and decided how you will respond, in advance. Talk to an attorney now if you are unsure. The facts and circumstances are always going to differ, but right after you have shot and possibly killed someone is not the time to start winging it. You are in no position to do yourself very much good, and may potentially cause yourself a bigly amount of trouble by talking too much or saying the wrong thing.

What Would Weasel Do?
Well Weasel isn't a lawyer, and isn't giving you legal advice, but I'd do some of all of the above, actually. Call 911, make sure my weapon is safe, secure the scene to the degree possible, and begin to identify witnesses and evidence. When the police arrive keep your hands where they can see them to avoid being shot. I would give a brief statement to the effect of "I was involved in a self-defense shooting, and I intend to cooperate fully. These are the witnesses to what happened and there is the bad guy's gun. I am now invoking my right to remain silent and would like to speak to a lawyer" and then shut up. That's it. That is all of it. We can pick legal nits on whether the "I was afraid for my life" business is necessary, and I am inclined to believe by stating it was a self-defense shooting that box is checked. You have described what happened and nothing more. You are officially having a bad day, the police are not your friends, and this is not the time to start making your defense by ad-libbing or giving your deep and inner-most thoughts on the matter. Anything you say can and will be used against you, not the other way around.

A lurker suggests another forum for discussion on the matter, Andrew Branca who also posts at Legal Insurrection and who has some of the best write ups on the Zimmerman and Chauvin trials. I wholeheartedly agree, and would invite Mr. Branca, who comments here from time-to-time, to share his thoughts with us.

So back to the question. You just shot someone who is either dead or gravely injured on the ground nearby. What do you do? What do you do when the police arrive? Did your answer change after watching the video or reading the short book?

Am I full of shit regarding how I would respond?

Wyoming Roadtrip!
Our pals Jesse in DC and Screaming in Digital recently took their show on the road.

On July 1st we went to the Cody Museum of firearms in Cody Wyoming to walk around a bit, and then take a guided tour that SiD purchased me for my birthday. The best present *ever*!!! This place has an AMAZING collection of firearms, from the matchlock era and hand cannons to modern guns.

The tour started at early stuff like blunderbusses, and frontier rifles, i.e. the "Kentucky" rifles, where we saw some very nice hand built rifles of the pre rev war era. These are the flint lock black powder, single shot weapons. We worked our way into newer guns, the British "Brown Bess" sort of stuff that did not hold a candle to our domestic rifles. Our domestic guns were made in fairly small quantities, and many are works of art.

We continued through the WBTS, or "Civil War" to the yankees... During this era the development towards modern guns began. Although they were black powder still, the development of cartridge rounds began then. Sharps made very good cartridge rifles, for the union army. Most soldiers still used single shot muskets; shoot, swab the bore out, pour powder in, fit a patch to a ball or later a Minie ball, insert and puuuussssh it down with the ram rod, flip it upright, install a percussion cap, cock it, aim and fire. Rinse and repeat. The development of lever action reloading with 10 pre made cartridges was a game changer.

Then we moved into the era I like... John Moses Browning, the greatest firearms designer ever IMO. I have a couple replicas of 22LR designs of his that I love shooting, along with my 1911, and my model 1894 Winchester. He designed MANY MANY more. They have an in depth collection of "Schuetzen" rifles, and I spent a lot of time ogling those. Most of those were evidently made to order to fit one guy, and customised to their personal fit and taste.

We got into newer guns, the WW1, and WW2 eras. I own and have owned quite a few guns of that era. We saw the Garand that was made by Winchester for General Patton as a presentation piece, but he died before he received it. Beautiful rifle, a worthy representative of the "Finest battle implement known to man"

They had several Japanese rifles, the type 38s as well as type 99s, including sniper variants. Mausers as well, they had some Mosins scattered through the displays, including one Finnish capture version.

They had drawers setup to pull open to see both sides of many different rifles. They had hand guns as well, but time did not allow is to dig into them at all. We saw a Girandoni air rifle like Lewis and Clarke took on their expedition. I saw a Civil War era "coffee grinder" gun. I have always wondered why that name.. Well, they had a built in grinder for coffee or grain. We saw some of the Actual Annie Oakley's guns, I am a huge Annie Oakley fan, so that made my day There were many more guns we saw, but these are the ones stuck in my memory. I intend to go back, there is more to see..

I guess that last part that I don't dare forget, part of the tour took us into a special room on the lower floor, and with our hands gloved we were allowed to hold and handle actual museum weapons. I have held a Lemat pistol in MY hands. Not 1 but 2 Trap door Springfields. Sadly, we ran out of time, but the museum is amazing, and the tour is about life changing. I suggest any gun person that is anywhere near Cody, take the time and spend as much as you can there. You will not regret it.

Excellent report JiDC and SiD! Now I have another reason to visit Wyoming!

Last week we continued our discussion of the NRA, and specifically the upcoming Board elections.

NRA members eligible to vote should have received their ballot already. Does anyone have anything to add?

As always, lots of people had something to add, both in the comments and by email. Here is a link to a good article at The Firerms Coalition sent in by our pal CBD, and another sent in by a Lurker who knows one of the candidates personally. Lastly, here's a good article from Ammoland.

I wish there was a better resource other than simple candidate statements and bios, but so far haven't found anything. I personally think the board, at 25 members, is too large and creates too much opportunity for factions to develop among the members. Unfortunately I do not see how the entrenched power structure is going to change absent throwing all of the forks out with the bath water.

Anyone have anything else to recommend? Any suggestions?

We also had a conversation on cannons and whether they are considered destructive devices. Our pal Blasternaz offers the following from [26 U.S.C. 5845; 27 CFR 479.11]:

Generally, no. Muzzleloading cannons manufactured in or before 1898 (and replicas thereof) that are not capable of firing fixed ammunition are considered antiques and not subject to the provisions of either theGun Control Act (GCA) orNational Firearms Act (NFA).

One question; what is "fixed ammunition" mentioned in the regs? Anyone know?

Here is another video from Stav of the She Equips Herself YouTube channel. This time she covers what to expect when going to the range by yourself from the ladies perspective.

I think this is particularly valuable as many times new shooters avoid going to the range by themselves, especially if intially introduced to the sport by a shooting buddy. When the shooting buddy isn't around, the whole process becomes much more intimidating. Don't let this be you! It all seems a little overwhelming at first, and do not be afraid to ask the RSO for help if you have a question. For the first few trips, pick a slow time such as mid-week during the day. Your range staff should be there to help you and if they aren't, consider finding another place to shoot.

Here is a recent ammo availability report from Minnesota.

What are you seeing where you live?

Ax Weasel
I received a great question from our pal Dr. Fred on rifle case resizing.

You mentioned today that you full-length resize your cases for match ammo during your discussion on concentricity. I thought that neck-sizing cases resulted in the most accurate ammo, considering that fire forming already makes the case and shoulder angles virtually perfect for that particular chamber. I even have a specific neck sizing die for my 22-250 and I'm genuinely curious about your statement.

Yes, I full-length size everything to bump the shoulder back a little (around .002" - .003") and also to resize neck and the case body itself in a single step using a full length busing die. I have my sizing dies made either from my chamber reamer or from fired brass, and I have them set up to only very slightly resize the brass to keep them perfectly uniform and able to chamber and extract easily. Since the chambers are generally very tight I haven't seen any diminution in brass life so far, generally about one shooting season, since it's not being stretched much during the sizing step.

Can you go longer without body sizing? Sure. However, you are eventually going to have to re-size the body, and I don't want to find out in the middle of a match that I should have resized the last time I reloaded the case. Finally, it keeps the cases volumetrically identical ensuring pressure consistency.

The social and cultural event of the season, NoVaMoMe 2021 is on the calendar! That's right, you people have a chance to meet many of your online pals on Saturday, July 24th beginning at 1pm until dark, or such time as it gets busted up by the cops. We have an exciting new location in the Northern Virginia area which we think will be more better than before and allow extended time for visiting. Admission is $25 which includes food and soft drinks, with a cash bar. This year all of the food is prepared from the greatest non-fiction literary work in modern history, The Deplorable Gourmet. Want to find out if your recipe made the cut? Want to be one of the cool kids? Just send an email to novamome at protonmail dot cee oh emm, pass the rigorous screening process to obtain registration details, then sign up to attend! Easy-Peasy!

It promises to be a great day, including our customary raffle of AoSHQ themed gift baskets. That's right! Each of the AoSHQ weekend threads has a specially themed gift basket chock full 'o theme related gifts!

Win a Dream Date with Weasel!
This year, a separate raffle for the Gun Thread gift basket will be held. This fabulous prize includes an entire day of shooting and personalized one-on-one handgun & rifle coaching and instruction at Weasel Acres on a mutually agreeable date with yours truly. The lucky winner will be able to not only bring and shoot their own weapons, but also try out a variety of WeaselWeapons using WeaselAmmo! The winner will take home 150 rounds of quality 9mm ammo to practice what they have learnt, a signed photo of WeaselDog and Fun Size Joe, and a complimentary video of the WeaselAcres experience, as parting gifts.

We will end the day with dinner at a good Mexican place in nearby Appomattox. Pretty much a dream date with Weasel! The winner will be responsible for their travel to and from Central Virginia, hence the separate drawing.

Don't be a pathetic girly-man loser, register today!

Link-O-Rama

I'm really very seriously not kidding around anymore. Buy Ammo
AmmoSeek - online ammo search tool
GunBot - online ammo search tool
SG Ammo
Palmetto State Armory
Georgia Arms
AmmoMan
Target Sports USA
Bud's Gun Shop

This week's funny is from our pal CBD, who recklessly places batteries on concrete in his basement.

Please note the new and improved protonmail account gunthread at protonmail dot com. An informal Gun Thread archive can be found HERE. Future expansion plans are in the works for the site Weasel Gun Thread. If you have a question you would like to ask Gun Thread Staff offline, just send us a note and we'll do our best to answer. If you care to share the story of your favorite firearm, send a picture with your nic and tell us what you sadly lost in the tragic canoe accident. If you would like to remain completely anonymous, just say so. Lurkers are always welcome!

That's it for this week - have you been to the range?

posted by Weasel at 07:00 PM

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