Gun Thread: Kyle Rittenhouse Trial Edition

Howdy, Y'all! Welcome to the wondrously fabulous Gun Thread! As always, I want to thank all of our regulars for being here week in and week out, and also offer a bigly Gun Thread welcome to any newcomers who may be joining us tonight. Howdy and thank you for stopping by! I hope you find our wacky conversation on the subject of guns 'n shooting both enjoyable and informative. You are always welcome to lurk in the shadows of shame, but I'd like to invite you to jump into the conversation, say howdy, and tell us what kind of shooting you like to do!

Well the planets have finally aligned with work stuff and the weather, so I am headed to the farm! In fact, when this post goes up on Sunday I will already be down there. I have a bunch of chores to do, mostly involving equipment maintenance and preparing for winter. Temps are already getting chilly with highs in the 50s and nighttime lows below freezing. But it's a dry chilly! Truth is, this is about my favorite time of year to be down there. Hopefully I will get a chance to do some shooting!

With that, let's get to the gun stuff below, shall we?

As much as I prefer to leave current events and especially politics out of the Gun Thread, I suppose there is no ignoring the 800 pound fork in the shed, and by that I mean the Kyle Rittenhouse trial in Kenosha, WI. Thanks to the politicization of everything, there are exactly two schools of thought on the matter, which also happen to be precisely aligned with political affiliation. Innocent on the right and guilty on the left. Has anyone observed anything in the middle? I certainly haven't.

From a strictly common sense/what happened standpoint, I think Mr. Rittenhouse is innocent, and I hope the jury agrees with me from a legal perspective as well. We're probably going to find out soon, because it looks like the jury gets the case Monday afternoon or Tuesday. Anyway, I spent some time this week watching the court proceedings and will offer a few of my thoughts on the matter in the unlikely event anyone gives a shit what I think.

The Prosecutor is Asshoe!
In this case, unlikeable at first glance is an understatement, but then, has anyone in the history of the universe ever liked a prosecutor?

I Hope Defense Counsel Has Some Grand 13 Dimensional Chess Strategy
I was watching a live stream with a panel of sympathetic attorneys commenting on the case, and they kept identifying problematic procedural behavior from the prosecution and missed opportunities to capitalize on them with the defense team. Much of what was said made sense to me, but there is a big difference in watching and participating, especially when it comes to reading a jury.

You Do Not Want to be in Kyle's Shoes
One thought kept occurring to me as I watched, and that was how thankful I was not to be sitting at the defendant's table. Just keep that in mind as you carry a weapon. Shooting someone is the last thing in the world you want to have to do, and justified or not, your problems will have only begun once the bad guy goes down.

Thoughts?

First up, our pal MikeM recently mentioned taking a pistol course as a prerequisite for obtaining a Concealed Weapons Permit, and graciously agreed to share the details.

Hello all. I live in North Idaho, it is a very good place to live if you like outdoorsy stuff, but especially guns. I had taken an NRA Home Firearm Safety class in 2009. Last Sunday I had the opportunity to take an enhanced pistol course. This course exceeds the requirements in Idaho state for an enhanced concealed weapons permit (CWP). Such a CWP is now accepted in 39 states.

The class included live instruction from a certified instructor, with video embedded in a power point presentation. The teacher is a currently active chief of police. Very engaging guy, very good teacher. There were ten students total.

The course included detailed instruction in firearms safety, marksmanship basics, traffic stops, Idaho laws and liabilities, conditions and circumstances associated with the use of deadly force, the aftermath of a shooting incident, and range safety.

A requirement for the class was, of course eye and ear protection, and a strong side holster, and a gun, no revolvers. About half the day was in the classroom, then we went next door to an outdoor range. We were told a requirement of the course is 98 shots (who knows why, it's the government). We started off shooting at 15 feet. I had my 9mm H&K VPSK which I have found to be very accurate. Attached is my target at 15 feet. The instructor just wanted us to put our shots center of the chest. My socks were too tight, and my glasses were fogging up in the cold of November North Idaho.

We were in two groups. We did several different drills, for instance with one hand only, weak hand only. Trying to put a couple shots right next to each other. Putting a couple shots next to each other on his command, for example he would shout, upper right, lower pelvis. I spoke to a few of the other participants, good guys all. A couple of them were ex military, and had a lot of experience with guns, in one case with rifles mostly, but these were not former seals. In the one case where I asked, the guy was in his late fifties and was currently an IT guy for the Navy.

Then Tuesday I went to a nearby police station. I was fingerprinted and submitted an application and I hopefully will receive my CWP in a month or two.

For me, the most interesting part of the course was some of the classroom discussion. Here are some concepts: The discussion of curtilage. Idaho is a castle doctrine state. There are some strange rules when you concealed carry. For example, your blood alcohol when you concealed carry must be zero. Or if you are in a bar, in is not legal to drink and have a concealed weapon, but, in Idaho, if you open carry in that situation you are fine.

A representative from USCCA was there. Seemed like a good guy. Mostly I have heard good things about USCCA, but I have heard some bad things. So I asked him what he thought, where had they faltered in their coverage. His only example he could think of, was a woman who(IIRC) got her coverage, and then shot her husband the next week. The USCCA has three levels of coverage. The highest level includes three classes you can take and a ton of videos you have access to on the web. So we discussed the idea of signing up for the Elite level of coverage $499/year, getting all the elite stuff out of it, and then dropping your coverage down to Gold level $299/year. One thing that was discussed and I thought was good/interesting about USCCA. If you do find yourself in the Rittenhouse situation, or the McCloskey situation, that is not the time to try and find a good lawyer. And if you are traveling, your lawyer back in Idaho does not do you much good.

There was a lot of discussion on what constitutes a threat. He described it as a triangle, where if any side of the triangle was not present, the triangle justifying use of deadly force collapsed. If I recall correctly, one side of the triangle was the nature of the weapon. Does the other person have a gun or a club? Is it a group? Is the person much stronger than you?

One side of the triangle was intent. For what reason is this person threatening to you? You just had a car accident? Or you caught them peaking in your house window with a crowbar? Or they are just walking on your property? One side of the triangle was opportunity/range. Is this person within approximately 21 feet, which can be covered in about 1-2 seconds.

The idea of generating a file about your training. If you took a class, or went to the range. Maybe date those targets. If you watched a video, maybe screen capture that, send it to yourself in the mail, and keep the envelope unopened, so it shows the date. The idea is to have a file that shows you are careful and know about the laws.

Finally, many people on the thread are very expert about guns. I am not. But, I am fairly expert about learning, memorization. So I have a suggestion for newbies. The mnemonic LATT is easy to remember as it forms a sort of word. LATT stands for the four rules of gun safety:

Loaded (always treat a gun as if it was loaded)

Annihilate (I needed a vowel, so instead of destroy, never point a gun at something you are not willing to annihilate)

Trigger (keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot)

Target (know your target and what is beyond your target)

Nice shooting, MikeM, and thank you for the excellent report not only on the pistol course, but for your review and thoughts on USCCA, as well!

Next up our pal Butch shares pictures of his very nice Lee-Enfield and trip to the range.

I purchased a Lee-Enfield No. 4 Mk 1 a while ago. The barrel was completely shot out, so I had it replaced. While the hood was open, I had Jim Albright refinish all the parts to match the original conditions. He did a great job and I highly recommend him. I cleaned the wood furniture and give it several coats of boiled linseed oil. It went from a bunch of parts, to a finished beauty.

I finally took it to an indoor 25-yard range to zero it. I initially used the textbook zeroing target with meh results. I then put up a silhouette target; I seem to do better with those for some reason. I've attached the half-assed results. The POI at 100 yards will be several inches above the POI on the target, assuming I can even see that far. Curse these 29+ year old eyes!

They look like they're all in the center to me! Thanks Butch!

Next up our pal Ed L shares a nice '03 Springfield with us.

M1903 Springfield SN 201XXX came off the Springfield production line in early 1906. Originally chambered in .30-03, it returned to Springfield for rechambering to .30-06 between 1908 and 1910, as evidenced by the stock bearing the inspector's initials of "GRG" for George R. Goring, employed at Springfield in this position at this time. The reinforcing stock screw visible to the left of the inspector's initials narrows the rechambering to 1909-1910, when Springfield Armory implemented this design change.

After reentering service, it appears that this rifle went to the USN. The right side of the stock bears a period stamping indicating that it was issued to the second USS Idaho (BB-24), in commission from 1908-1914. After USS Idaho was sold to Greece in 1914, this rifle stayed in USN inventory. The left side of the stock bears a stamping indicating that this rifle was later issued to the USS North Carolina (BB-55). As an M1903, it's likely that this rifle came aboard early in the ship's career, when M1's were scarce. It's possible that 80 years ago today, this rifle sat in the rifle racks aboard USS North Carolina on the eve of WWII. The lack of any markings showing refinishing, repairs, or overhauls indicates that this rifle is still in the same configuration it was when it rolled off the Springfield Armory assembly line in 1909-1910.

Very nicely done, Ed L, and thank you for sending this in! I have often said a big part of the fun in owning these old rifles is wondering where they have been, and it looks like you have done quite a bit of detective work!

Next up, our pal blaster shares a pic taken during a recent safe rearrangement.

Was rearranging the safe and brought all the long guns out for a family photo. I guess you could say I have a "type."

Now that they are loaded up in the canoe they should be fine.

Damn canoes! Thanks for sharing, blaster!

Next, our pal JTB shares some good news on black powder availability.

This weekend on the Muzzleloading Forum someone posted that they heard Dupont might be buying the Goex plant from Hodgdons. The next comment said; "Correct! I have an acquaintance whose daughter is high up in DuPont. They will have the facility up and running by the first of the year. He said his daughter is excited about being transferred to the plant and her house up for sale. Tons of high grade US powder soon. Be patient."

This is a BIG DEAL for the black powder community and would mean there is still an American make of BP. IIRC, Dupont was the original company making black powder back in the 1800s.

Gun Basics 101
This week we have more tips on buying a riflescope.

Cigar of the Week

Diesel cigars blended in Nicaragua by A.J. Fernandez. Not for the faint of heart!

Link-O-Rama

I'm really very seriously not kidding around anymore. Buy Ammo
AmmoSeek - online ammo search tool
GunBot - online ammo search tool
SG Ammo
Palmetto State Armory
Georgia Arms
AmmoMan
Target Sports USA
Bud's Gun Shop

This week's extended funny comes courtesy of our pal FungusBoy. Watch until the end and listen to to question the gas station guy asks the cop.

Please note the new and improved protonmail account gunthread at protonmail dot com. An informal Gun Thread archive can be found HERE. Future expansion plans are in the works for the site Weasel Gun Thread. If you have a question you would like to ask Gun Thread Staff offline, just send us a note and we'll do our best to answer. If you care to share the story of your favorite firearm, send a picture with your nic and tell us what you sadly lost in the tragic canoe accident. If you would like to remain completely anonymous, just say so. Lurkers are always welcome!

That's it for this week - have you been to the range?

posted by Weasel at 07:00 PM

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